Violated NC/NT Again... And Why is She Doing This?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Long story short... .she's still in my house due to not having the $ to move out right away, and we have our kids there.

It's her time of the month. She felt physically drained. I played with the kids in the afternoon; she laid down and crashed on our (mine now, since she sleeps on the couch) bed. We came in. She came up to me as I was cooking and apologized for falling asleep. I said, no problem, you look like you needed your rest. She put her head down... .I reached out and rubbed her back. She came and gave me a hug. Let me hold her for a minute, then broke away.

Later, she was doing laundry. I was playing with the kids and listening to music. But I was kind of zoning out. She said, are you ok? I just kind of shrugged and threw my hands out and replied. Well, I'm not suicidal or anything, but no, I'm not ok. And left it at that.

After we put the kids to bed, I was moping around and she asked me again what was wrong (really?). She said, is it money? I said no. Money, who cares about money? It's just a thing. I'll get more. It's you/us, this whole thing. I can't just move on like you do. Then I retired to my "office" in the backyard to drink beer, listen to music and watch the night sky. I came in a little later and she was all nice, do you want to watch a movie with me? I feel like watching a move. Uh, no. No thanks. Then I went back out and kind of broke down.

Last night, similar thing. She asked if I wanted to sit down and watch a show together that we used to always watch. I said no. Like we could sit down as friends, to help her detach, or reattach as "friends", as if 6 years and two kids meant nothing. A friend of mine said that maybe I should just get as much out of it as I can. She would let me hug her now and then, I know... .it would make her feel better, too. And she would feel better about herself, justifying the unjustifiable (the affair), if she thought she could leave in good conscience if she perceived that I had "moved on" and was ok with everything.

No. I am NOT ok. Not even close. Maybe she still wants to talk about "us", too? Or maybe she is trying to recycle, even though I know she doesn't love me, can't, she feels. But she isn't even trying... .or maybe she is in her own way. Maybe she wants me to fall down on my knees and beg us to try again.

I found a journal of hers... .not a diary, just a notebook she used for other things. It wasn't left out for me to obviously find, but it wasn't hidden. I flipped through the regular banalities, and found a few short sentences she wrote, not sure when.

"I want to love [Turkish], but I just can't. All I feel is emptiness... ."

Again, one more piece of the puzzle that confirms the BPD. She stopped mirroring my love when I detached the past year (due to her periodic verbal and emotional abuse, exacerbated by kids, mortgage, jobs... .you know, normal stresses in a mature relationship), that's what I think. And yes, short of that, she is empty inside.

So sad.

[Turkish]

Long story short... .she's still in my house due to not having the $ to move out right away, and we have our kids there.

It's her time of the month. She felt physically drained. I played with the kids in the afternoon; she laid down and crashed on our (mine now, since she sleeps on the couch) bed. We came in. She came up to me as I was cooking and apologized for falling asleep. I said, no problem, you look like you needed your rest. She put her head down... .I reached out and rubbed her back. She came and gave me a hug. Let me hold her for a minute, then broke away.

Later, she was doing laundry. I was playing with the kids and listening to music. But I was kind of zoning out. She said, are you ok? I just kind of shrugged and threw my hands out and replied. Well, I'm not suicidal or anything, but no, I'm not ok. And left it at that.

After we put the kids to bed, I was moping around and she asked me again what was wrong (really?). She said, is it money? I said no. Money, who cares about money? It's just a thing. I'll get more. It's you/us, this whole thing. I can't just move on like you do. Then I retired to my "office" in the backyard to drink beer, listen to music and watch the night sky. I came in a little later and she was all nice, do you want to watch a movie with me? I feel like watching a move. Uh, no. No thanks. Then I went back out and kind of broke down.

Last night, similar thing. She asked if I wanted to sit down and watch a show together that we used to always watch. I said no. Like we could sit down as friends, to help her detach, or reattach as "friends", as if 6 years and two kids meant nothing. A friend of mine said that maybe I should just get as much out of it as I can. She would let me hug her now and then, I know... .it would make her feel better, too. And she would feel better about herself, justifying the unjustifiable (the affair), if she thought she could leave in good conscience if she perceived that I had "moved on" and was ok with everything.

No. I am NOT ok. Not even close. Maybe she still wants to talk about "us", too? Or maybe she is trying to recycle, even though I know she doesn't love me, can't, she feels. But she isn't even trying... .or maybe she is in her own way. Maybe she wants me to fall down on my knees and beg us to try again.

I found a journal of hers... .not a diary, just a notebook she used for other things. It wasn't left out for me to obviously find, but it wasn't hidden. I flipped through the regular banalities, and found a few short sentences she wrote, not sure when.

"I want to love [Turkish], but I just can't. All I feel is emptiness... ."

Again, one more piece of the puzzle that confirms the BPD. She stopped mirroring my love when I detached the past year (due to her periodic verbal and emotional abuse, exacerbated by kids, mortgage, jobs... .you know, normal stresses in a mature relationship), that's what I think. And yes, short of that, she is empty inside.

So sad.

[eyvindr]

I'm sorry, Turkish.

I, and many others here, know how you feel. It will get better. But right now it really sucks.

Hang in there.

[Ironmanrises]

Long story short... .she's still in my house due to not having the $ to move out right away, and we have our kids there.

It's her time of the month. She felt physically drained. I played with the kids in the afternoon; she laid down and crashed on our (mine now, since she sleeps on the couch) bed. We came in. She came up to me as I was cooking and apologized for falling asleep. I said, no problem, you look like you needed your rest. She put her head down... .I reached out and rubbed her back. She came and gave me a hug. Let me hold her for a minute, then broke away.

Later, she was doing laundry. I was playing with the kids and listening to music. But I was kind of zoning out. She said, are you ok? I just kind of shrugged and threw my hands out and replied. Well, I'm not suicidal or anything, but no, I'm not ok. And left it at that.

After we put the kids to bed, I was moping around and she asked me again what was wrong (really?). She said, is it money? I said no. Money, who cares about money? It's just a thing. I'll get more. It's you/us, this whole thing. I can't just move on like you do. Then I retired to my "office" in the backyard to drink beer, listen to music and watch the night sky. I came in a little later and she was all nice, do you want to watch a movie with me? I feel like watching a move. Uh, no. No thanks. Then I went back out and kind of broke down.

Last night, similar thing. She asked if I wanted to sit down and watch a show together that we used to always watch. I said no. Like we could sit down as friends, to help her detach, or reattach as "friends", as if 6 years and two kids meant nothing. A friend of mine said that maybe I should just get as much out of it as I can. She would let me hug her now and then, I know... .it would make her feel better, too. And she would feel better about herself, justifying the unjustifiable (the affair), if she thought she could leave in good conscience if she perceived that I had "moved on" and was ok with everything.

No. I am NOT ok. Not even close. Maybe she still wants to talk about "us", too? Or maybe she is trying to recycle, even though I know she doesn't love me, can't, she feels. But she isn't even trying... .or maybe she is in her own way. Maybe she wants me to fall down on my knees and beg us to try again.

I found a journal of hers... .not a diary, just a notebook she used for other things. It wasn't left out for me to obviously find, but it wasn't hidden. I flipped through the regular banalities, and found a few short sentences she wrote, not sure when.

"I want to love [Turkish], but I just can't. All I feel is emptiness... ."

Again, one more piece of the puzzle that confirms the BPD. She stopped mirroring my love when I detached the past year (due to her periodic verbal and emotional abuse, exacerbated by kids, mortgage, jobs... .you know, normal stresses in a mature relationship), that's what I think. And yes, short of that, she is empty inside.

So sad.

In bold.

My eyes just welled up reading that.

The ever present contradiction... .

Of the disorder.

Paradoxically cruel.

Paradoxically sad.

I am sorry you are experiencing that.

I know it hurts.

When i let my exUBPDgf... .

Back into my life in round 2... .

And let her back into my facebook... .

I scrolled through old status updates... .

Of hers... .

Specifically in the time period... .

Of NC... .

Between round 1... .

And Round 2.

Shortly after the NC had first commenced... .

She put a status... .

That read... .

"Sometimes you need to love people... .

From a distance... ."

Of course... .

All her enabler friends... .

Liked that status... .

And replied... .

"Yes... .

I agree... .!"

Of course... .

She had just RAGED... .

And ripped right through my ironman suit... .

Not that long... .

Before she put that status.

A contradiction... .

In its cruelest... .

And saddest form.

I remember... .

After seeing that status... .

And wondering... .

Does she not see... .

What she wrote... .?

I remember how much hurt... .

She had inflicted on me... .

In that time period... .

When she put that status.

Further pain... .

Was inbound... .

That would make that pain... .

Pale in comparison.

Hang in there Turkish.

[Lady31]

Turkish -

All this behavior of hers I believe is simply soothing for her.  It doesn't matter if she DOES think maybe we should try to work it out.  If that's what she is thinking NOW, it's not necessarily what she will be thinking in X days from now.  No matter how real that would look at the moment, it's ONLY real for the moment.  If it's just because she's lonely or down, then that's why she is reaching out.  Whatever, no matter - the only thing you DO know is:

Whatever FEELING behind her behavior is only TEMPORARY.  In the immediate moment - she is soothed.  ALL she is looking for with this behavior is soothing from whatever "bad" temporary feeling she is having.

She is attempting to get that soothing from you.  To feel better because she's down or lonely, to not feel so guilty (you are right, if you act OK after all she did, that validates to her that she didn't do anything bad), to feel like the security of you being there is STILL there incase she needs you (if she can get you to respond in a way that confirms your availability or possible availability to her.)

ALL THAT ASIDE - THE END RESULT IS STILL THE SAME.

She is still who she is.  She is mentally ill.  She is not stable in her love and emotions which means you will never receive a consistent stable love from her.

Any response she tries to illicit from you right now is to soothe the immediate feelings she has that come and go like a 3 year old.  Nothing more, nothing less.

[Turkish]

Turkish -

All this behavior of hers I believe is simply soothing for her.  It doesn't matter if she DOES think maybe we should try to work it out.  If that's what she is thinking NOW, it's not necessarily what she will be thinking in X days from now.  No matter how real that would look at the moment, it's ONLY real for the moment.  If it's just because she's lonely or down, then that's why she is reaching out.  Whatever, no matter - the only thing you DO know is:

Whatever FEELING behind her behavior is only TEMPORARY.  In the immediate moment - she is soothed.  ALL she is looking for with this behavior is soothing from whatever "bad" temporary feeling she is having.

She is attempting to get that soothing from you.  To feel better because she's down or lonely, to not feel so guilty (you are right, if you act OK after all she did, that validates to her that she didn't do anything bad), to feel like the security of you being there is STILL there incase she needs you (if she can get you to respond in a way that confirms your availability or possible availability to her.)

ALL THAT ASIDE - THE END RESULT IS STILL THE SAME.

She is still who she is.  She is mentally ill.  She is not stable in her love and emotions which means you will never receive a consistent stable love from her.

Any response she tries to illicit from you right now is to soothe the immediate feelings she has that come and go like a 3 year old.  Nothing more, nothing less.

I get what you are saying... .and thanks, IMF, you are truly a gem. I had to go outside and get myself together after I read what you wrote... .

So here is the update from her notes (here I will leave it to the moderators if I am crossing some line by posting this person stuff of hers... .her notebook is sitting in our home, not exactly hidden, though not left obviously for me to find).

"Why this thoughts that everyone is unfaithful. Why, why... .

This is the root of my emptiness, I don't know how to trust. If something is good I sabotage it because it will be ruined anyway. These are the thoughts that destroy my happiness.

On my way home I cried and wished that all this was a nightmare. I just wanted to run to your arm [Turkish] and ask for your forgiveness. I'm sorry things have to be this way. Truly are. Seeing you sad breaks my heart. Why did I want to run to your arms is it because I love you or because I'm afraid of what is to come. I want our children to be well. I can live and move on, but I cannot ruin their lives. How do I fix it? I want to be the best for them and for me [I guess Turkish doesn't count at this point]."

My question is, is there anything I can "work with" here, or should I just keep detaching and letting it go?

My thoughts are:

1. No, she doesn't love me. In reality, she is incapable, though she will keep searching with another. And another, in-between her hermit periods.

2. She is self aware enough of her desire to be attached to me is indeed a "need" and not "real"... .but we all need love. So I appreciate her distance, even though it hurts. I know her coming to me would be false, but not false at the same time... .weird. Here is where I am totally confused about love now, in a sense... .and don't trust myself for a normal relationship in the future. What the heck is normal?

3. The comments about the children are good... .in the sense that she is not totally selfish. And I can say I would still be willing to go a on a long road to work it out for them and us, but no relationship modeled for them is better than an unhealthy one---- this was my childhood, my mom never had boyfriends, and didn't get married even until I was 25... .and then it was a caretaker marriage for a sick man. Even if I turned out to be the "lonely child" I still emerged from a lot of BS, pain, and a depressive mother with some BPD traits as self-sufficient and having an intact identity. Our kids will have a tremendous support system of me, friends, family (even here) that I NEVER had.

Thoughts? Opinions? Smacks upside my head?

[Learning_curve74]

Turkish, it's like we can feel you struggling, which is perfectly natural. 

You asked about "normal"... .I think everybody is crazy, meaning we all do things other people, and sometimes even ourselves, don't understand. It only becomes insanity when we repeat the same things again and again while expecting a different outcome. So maybe "crazy" falls under "normal" but "insane" doesn't? 

Maybe I'm being ridiculous... .so check out the article: Characteristics of healthy relationships.

What your wife wrote in her notebook is very similar to things my exBPDgf told me early in our relationship as well as near the end. She is "high functioning", self-aware, and accepts her diagnosis of BPD. However, she is in total denial that it is possible to do anything about it. I saw that "feelings are facts" for her, and even if therapy helped change her behaviors, there is no guarantee they change the underlying feelings. My exBPDgf felt it would make her fake; the sad thing is she already IS fake, just in denial of it when she needs to be and crushed and self-degrading when she acknowledges it... .very sad... .

What behaviors of hers do you think are hurting your kids? What behaviors are hurting you? How much are you willing to change yourself to accommodate her mental illness? I often suggest that people go to read the threads on the Staying board for a reality check against fairy tale hope -- as opposed to "realistic" hope which is being positive but accepting that it may not work out the way you want... .Everybody is not the same, and every relationship is different, but if you can recognize the similarities maybe you can use that to help in your own decisions.

The future is scary and exciting because it's unwritten.

[Ironmanrises]

Turkish -

All this behavior of hers I believe is simply soothing for her.  It doesn't matter if she DOES think maybe we should try to work it out.  If that's what she is thinking NOW, it's not necessarily what she will be thinking in X days from now.  No matter how real that would look at the moment, it's ONLY real for the moment.  If it's just because she's lonely or down, then that's why she is reaching out.  Whatever, no matter - the only thing you DO know is:

Whatever FEELING behind her behavior is only TEMPORARY.  In the immediate moment - she is soothed.  ALL she is looking for with this behavior is soothing from whatever "bad" temporary feeling she is having.

She is attempting to get that soothing from you.  To feel better because she's down or lonely, to not feel so guilty (you are right, if you act OK after all she did, that validates to her that she didn't do anything bad), to feel like the security of you being there is STILL there incase she needs you (if she can get you to respond in a way that confirms your availability or possible availability to her.)

ALL THAT ASIDE - THE END RESULT IS STILL THE SAME.

She is still who she is.  She is mentally ill.  She is not stable in her love and emotions which means you will never receive a consistent stable love from her.

Any response she tries to illicit from you right now is to soothe the immediate feelings she has that come and go like a 3 year old.  Nothing more, nothing less.

I get what you are saying... .and thanks, IMF, you are truly a gem. I had to go outside and get myself together after I read what you wrote... .

So here is the update from her notes (here I will leave it to the moderators if I am crossing some line by posting this person stuff of hers... .her notebook is sitting in our home, not exactly hidden, though not left obviously for me to find).

"Why this thoughts that everyone is unfaithful. Why, why... .

This is the root of my emptiness, I don't know how to trust. If something is good I sabotage it because it will be ruined anyway. These are the thoughts that destroy my happiness.

On my way home I cried and wished that all this was a nightmare. I just wanted to run to your arm [Turkish] and ask for your forgiveness. I'm sorry things have to be this way. Truly are. Seeing you sad breaks my heart. Why did I want to run to your arms is it because I love you or because I'm afraid of what is to come. I want our children to be well. I can live and move on, but I cannot ruin their lives. How do I fix it? I want to be the best for them and for me [I guess Turkish doesn't count at this point]."

My question is, is there anything I can "work with" here, or should I just keep detaching and letting it go?

My thoughts are:

1. No, she doesn't love me. In reality, she is incapable, though she will keep searching with another. And another, in-between her hermit periods.

2. She is self aware enough of her desire to be attached to me is indeed a "need" and not "real"... .but we all need love. So I appreciate her distance, even though it hurts. I know her coming to me would be false, but not false at the same time... .weird. Here is where I am totally confused about love now, in a sense... .and don't trust myself for a normal relationship in the future. What the heck is normal?

3. The comments about the children are good... .in the sense that she is not totally selfish. And I can say I would still be willing to go a on a long road to work it out for them and us, but no relationship modeled for them is better than an unhealthy one---- this was my childhood, my mom never had boyfriends, and didn't get married even until I was 25... .and then it was a caretaker marriage for a sick man. Even if I turned out to be the "lonely child" I still emerged from a lot of BS, pain, and a depressive mother with some BPD traits as self-sufficient and having an intact identity. Our kids will have a tremendous support system of me, friends, family (even here) that I NEVER had.

Thoughts? Opinions? Smacks upside my head?

In bold.

That is her awareness.

A further insight... .

Into the contradictory nature... .

Of the disorder.

I can imagine... .

How you must have felt... .

Reading that part of her journal.

I feel for you.

That insight you read... .

Is the pattern of behavior... .

That she will repeat... .

Again and again.

There is nothing... .

Unfortunately... .

That you can do.

Another aspect of the paradox... .

That is cruel and sad.

She has to want to go to therapy... .

And even doing that... .

Is not a cure.

[Lady31]

Turkish,

I'm a big believer in keeping families together.  This BPD is just a whole different animal.

I think what she wrote is true.  I also think it's not.  As in, at that moment, she could see and feel those things.  In another moment she won't be able to.  At that moment she was worried about hurting the kids, in the moments of her deepest darkest needs or upset she may not be able to even remember them to factor in.

This is the hard part.  It's like we (I did this) see this part of them, these thoughts they have deep down - and we think that is them at the core underneath the craziness.  Instead - we have to stop splitting them.  We have to realize that is who they are AND they are also the person who at times will forget all that and act out in very crazy, out of control, selfish and abusive patterns.  That is who they are TOO.  The person in her that wrote those words was always there, and you are still where you are right now, so it wasn't enough to date.

So - I would say that you are fooling yourself if you think there is something you are going to be able to do to make it ANY different than it has been.  Not even different enough so it's "tolerable" to make it work to keep the family together.

It will be the same relationship it has always been.

The only factor really is whether she will get help and stick with it.  Then perhaps you could have a variable that may or may not make things better on some measure.

If she won't do anything to get help, why do these words you found written make you think there could be anything other than what there has always been?  That may be the question to ask yourself.  The other question you could ask is to her - if she would be willing to get the help.  I haven't read all your posts, so you may have already done so.

[Turkish]

Turkish,

I'm a big believer in keeping families together.  This BPD is just a whole different animal.

I think what she wrote is true.  I also think it's not.  As in, at that moment, she could see and feel those things.  In another moment she won't be able to.  At that moment she was worried about hurting the kids, in the moments of her deepest darkest needs or upset she may not be able to even remember them to factor in.

This is the hard part.  It's like we (I did this) see this part of them, these thoughts they have deep down - and we think that is them at the core underneath the craziness.  Instead - we have to stop splitting them.  We have to realize that is who they are AND they are also the person who at times will forget all that and act out in very crazy, out of control, selfish and abusive patterns.  That is who they are TOO.  The person in her that wrote those words was always there, and you are still where you are right now, so it wasn't enough to date.

So - I would say that you are fooling yourself if you think there is something you are going to be able to do to make it ANY different than it has been.  Not even different enough so it's "tolerable" to make it work to keep the family together.

It will be the same relationship it has always been.

The only factor really is whether she will get help and stick with it.  Then perhaps you could have a variable that may or may not make things better on some measure.

If she won't do anything to get help, why do these words you found written make you think there could be anything other than what there has always been?  That may be the question to ask yourself.  The other question you could ask is to her - if she would be willing to get the help.  I haven't read all your posts, so you may have already done so.

Thank you Lady. You are right. I have seen all parts of her, and they don't constitute a cohesive identity, just aspects that she shows to others, though her family is aware of her abusive nature. It does not surprise the people whom I have told, however. I think they know, which is why they are sympathetic to me.

I see her web searches in the last few days. She is indeed searching. I just don't know if it would be worth it to try. She told me last week she wanted someone to "lead" and "guide" her (like a little kid!). I am still doing so financially with giving her shelter. And she trusts me on things like her recent car buying experience because she knows I am good at it. But I am no longer her emotional caretaker. The things she writes in her journal, though aware of my pain, and guilty about it, are still all about her and her feelings. I guess that's what a journal is, but I see no real insight into the magnitude of what she has done.

I took both kids to the Dr. this morning. She came by to help. We were waiting in the office for a while, interacting with the kids. I kind of stared at the floor for a while. Talking to her, but not looking at her. I looked up and caught her staring at me. I almost asked her what she was thinking, but then realized it didn't make any difference, so I didn't. I am so conflicted right now... .

She wants to run back into my arms, but is aware it would be due to "need" and not something real. She told me a few weeks ago, and she also reiterated it in her journal. So she is self aware of that. I think she pretty much cut off the emotional/partially physical affair, though she could still be seeing the guy, I don't know. I don't "feel" that she is, but they still might be texting, who knows? I would think that she would be writing about it still, but I have felt the change in the past month. I haven't seen her check her secret email in two weeks, at least from our home computer (I don't think she can from her work). . Maybe she came to the realization that it was out of "need" as well, not "real." Knowing her, I think I could manipulate it, in a way, to get things going again, perhaps. If I got her back to some extent, even convinced her to go to proper therapy (there is a BPD/CBT specialist locally), it would still be the co-dependent, need-filled relationship it always was, even if we "matured" it a little. She wants the guru. I could be that, understanding what I do now, but would it be "love?" No, not in a healthy way.

But the kids are the whole wild card. I need her stable to sign off and agree to some kind of permanent (for now) custody and CS arrangement. I need to stop thinking vengefully, need her to stop thinking of herself vis-a-vis the guilt she feels, and need us both to think about the kids.