I Guess I Should Have Known

[Strugglingthroo]

Have filed for divorce and are working with our attorneys.  I thought going into this that we could be amicable, be adults, make things as easy as possible, save attorney fees, etc.  I guess I should have known better.  We agreed to try a settlement process as it is the fastest way of getting things done.  When we met, my attorney and I produced an offer, thinking it would either be accepted or met with a counter offer.  Instead, she had no offer at all.  We asked what she and her attorney wanted and the answer was, "We don't know."  The process has now drawn out several more weeks.

Has anyone else hit this going through the divorce process?  You think you have things lined out, you're trying to be fair, you feel like it can't be that compliated, only to have curve balls thrown at you, delays, etc.?  It's very hard to strategize when you're going up against someone who changes positions every few hours.

[takingandsending]

Hi Strugglingthroo.

Probably just about everyone has experienced what you describe. I am sorry that you are going through the frustrating and costly delays, too. I am 1.5 years in from when I filed for divorce, and the delays, refusals and lack of counter offers continue.

My advice which you are likely to ignore because you sound somewhat thoughtful and fair is ... .don’t be fair or at least don’t start with fair because your ex will work from that point and pull toward unreasonable and unfair. It’s inportant to work with an attorney who is not afraid to litigate and can help you strategize how to head your ex off at the pass.

Feeling prepared, engaged and winning the sanity contest by default does not get you a good deal in the end. I wish I had been much less fair and less reasonable at the outset, as ultimately it is where I ended up anyway.

Yes, most of us do not think our former spouses would do the assorted destructive and negative things they often do in a divorce, but that was for me just more FOG clouding my own experiences already hard learned. Let me ask you, has your ex wife ever done better under stressful situations or in fact behaved much worse/acted out much more and demanded much more? For the disordered thinker, stress rarely brings more clarity and stable action. Divorce is incredibly stressful - it will not bring out her best, it will not improve her logic or reasoning, it will not bring about ordered thought.

This is why you must have a strategy. Start with unfair and then offer fair so that she can feel she gets the win, is in control, whatever. Put expiration times on your offers, and then downgrade during the next round of indecision. It sounds harsh, but you are facing the unenviable task of trying to motivate someone who can only act in self interest and even then perhaps not so well.

Talk to your L. Ask him his concrete ideas for the next meeting, and if he has none, ask if how much experience he has had resolving cases with HCP. He may be a great attorney but not the right one for you.

For me, I am now nearly 2 years into a collaborative divorce where ex’s attorney appears to be afraid of her, mediator who was supposedly the ex-wife whisperer is finding she has been completely manipulated and my L is the only one who keeps ex on topic for more than 5 minutes at a time. Entire team believes and has recommended I should have primary custody of kids (we are now at 50/50) but she still will not sign or finalize. The desire for drama and engagement (even negative) is how ex derives a sense of normality and control. Bear that in mind as you proceed and make sure your L clearly understands this. I lost over $70k by my L and me working out a “fair” offer. When ex finally did come with counter, it was so wildly unfair and based on nothing other than what she felt that middle ground was horribly unfair ground for me. Hope you can learn from my mistakes.

[livednlearned]

It's very hard to strategize when you're going up against someone who changes positions every few hours.

In a settlement process, yes.

I'm so sorry she cannot regulate enough to come up with a counter offer.

It might be time to accept that this is going to court and prepare for that. How do things work where you live? Is it mandatory to try and mediate out of court?

For some people with BPD, depending on temperament, the prospect of going to court is enough to force a settlement. It can happen minutes before walking into the court room.

If you are ready to drop the charade of settlement, return to your offer and go for a little bit above what you think is fair so she (or the judge) has some room to split things down the middle.

If she isn't even countering, then it's time to splash some cold water on this and get ready for court.

Your L loses nothing by drawing out the process, a good thing to keep in mind when trying to strategize... .

I would give the opposing L a deadline and if the counter offer is not made, have your L schedule a hearing -- and make sure your L does not grant any extensions, under any circumstances, or change the court date. If you give your ex a boundary, you have to stick to that boundary, otherwise she will learn exactly how hard she has to push to get her way.

And even then, prepare for her to fire her attorney or whatnot. It sounds like stonewalling is going to be her signature move 

You have to nip that stuff hard or it will gallop its way through your finances and your patience in no time flat.

[40days_in_desert]

Hey Strugglingthroo,

Yes I have been through this. I’m right at 3 years in my divorce process. The final decree has been submitted and waiting on the judge to sign any day now. My ex stalled many times in responding to offers, producing discovery material, etc. Having a good/assertive  L helps a lot but you also need to be involved. Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Like what-if scenarios, ideas, etc.

My L was good because she wasn’t aggressive to where she tried to blast my ex for every failure (she never turned anything over or responded within time frames). She gave her three chances and three extra months all together to turn over discovery and respond with counter offers. My L always explained the reasoning behind her decisions/suggestions and always slowed me to provide input and ask questions. About six months ago, my L said, your case is stagnating so I suggest we go ahead and schedule a JSC and a court date. The JSC (Judicial Settlement Conference) is mandatory before a court hearing. The JSC was scheduled a little over a month before court. It got to the day before the JSC and my ex agreed to everything.

Being prepared, organized and having a game plan gave my L and I the confidence going into the settlement conference and court even though we didn’t end up needing to go. I wouldn’t use setting a court date as a bluff if you’re not ready to go to court.

[Strugglingthroo]

Thank you for the replies.  Very good advice takingandsending and livednlearned. I was wanting to be very fair and reasonable at the start of this process, with the feeling that she would be as well.  Obviously I still haven't learned.  My attorney and I are changing tactics and are going to push hard now.  We will be starting the discovery process, asking for how many times she's looked for work (she has a graduate degree yet says it's too hard to work full time), job offers she's rejected, etc.  Also going to ask for health information both physical and mental.  We are preparing as if we're going to court, which most likely we will be.  Meidation is not a requirement so the hope is this will apply enough pressure to try and get them to settle, eventually.  Takingand sending you make a good point by asking how she behaves under stress.  It's never good and clarity is never there.  She either erupts in anger or she retreats into denial avoidance.  

My attorney has dealt with BPD divorces before so I'm trusted him on some of his decisions.  A long drawn out process is not what I was hoping for as I'm not wired that way.  I like to tackle a problem head on and get it resolved.  It's obvious that I will not be able to do that with this process.  I find that there are days when I'm ready to do battle.  Feel like I have my second wind.  Then there are other days where I feel defeated and wonder if I can keep my wits about me until this is over.  Being beat down for over 2 decades has a way of catching up with you.  

Thank you all again for the advice and suggestions.  This board is such a huge help!

[livednlearned]

Also going to ask for health information both physical and mental.  

Do you mean by subpoenaing her health/mental health records? Or do you mean by having her undergo a psychiatric eval?

It's great that you have an L you trust, and who knows about PDs.

My L was good, and not only did she understand PDs, I learned she went through a PD divorce herself  

Even so, I think this board helped me manage my case better. Lawyers, even the good ones, aren't going to be as motivated as you to put an end to things. My L was an excellent litigator but she left big loopholes in the written orders that caused me a lot of grief. I had to focus on that part of her work so that our orders had consequences for non-compliance.

For example, Strugglingthroo will pick three forensic psychiatrists to perform the MMPI-2. Mrs. X is instructed to pick one from those three by day/date. If she does not pick one by day/date, then Strugglingthroo will choose one. Mrs. X must complete the psychiatric eval by day/date. If she does not complete it by then, visitation of the kids will be reduced to Sat 10-2pm and will remain that way until the evaluation has been entered in a hearing.

Your situation is probably different, that's just an example of how you want an order phrased with someone who has BPD. That way, you have a way forward in the event that your ex stonewalls or obstructs. And if you have to go back to court, the judge can read what was agreed upon by both parties and not give your ex three or four more bites of the apple.

Typically, the judge makes a ruling, and then one of the lawyers (make it be yours -- it will cost money, but it's better if it's your L) will write up the order. Then both parties w/ Ls go to the hearing to have it entered. Your L may tell you there's no need to go to those hearings, but go to them. And before the hearing, ask to see the order and where possible, insert reasonable consequences for non-compliance.

It took me years to figure that out, only when I figured out how to close the gaping holes  

[ForeverDad]

One of the tactics to use is to keep things focused on the kids, though they're already into their teens.  If she is smart enough, or manipulative enough, she may try to claim the high moral ground that her delay is for the kids.  That you already made a fair offer ought to sidetrack any claims of that sort but truly with BPD the core of her actions and responses will be about her self.

My divorce was nearly 2 years.  She had a favorable temp order which included temp custody and temp majority time, so she had no incentive to end it.  I had to go through every step of the divorce, with a few delaying continuances thrown in too.  Her only consequence was to be forced to move on to the next step.  The majority of us members here had to accept that the odds of getting a quick resolution was not realistic but the only option was to do everything yo keep the case moving forward.

Most cases described here don't include a diagnosis of BPD or similar labels.  Typically the courts and professionals studiously avoid getting mired in the aspects of a diagnosis.  Instead, they focus on the behaviors and behavior patterns.  But if there is a diagnosis that can certainly be helpful for you to use in practical ways.

Most here have observed that the courts don't try to "fix" the disordered or misbehaving parent.  It seems they actively ignore our claims of diagnostic labels unless they're already in therapy or already diagnosed.*  So if she is already in therapy then the court may agree that it is best for her to remain in therapy.

In general, courts are very reluctant to "fix" a parent, they handle a person as he or she is.  I presume they haven't had much past success in ordering "fixes" and so don't even try.  They instead deal with the behaviors and behavior patterns, starting slowly and gradually, very gradually, tightening the loopholes.

Best to get the current therapy included in the temp order from the very start, it may be much, much harder to add it later.

* A diagnosis in itself doesn't mean much.  You would also need an evaluator to report to the court whether the diagnosis impacts the parent's parenting ability.  For example, someone may be diagnosed an alcoholic.  Is the person a dry alcoholic who has stopped getting drunk?  Or does the person drink but only when not parenting or retreat into his room when intoxicated?  Or does the person rage at the other parent and kids, even driving intoxicated with the kids?  Court and evaluators will mostly ignore or minimize the first two scenarios and view only the last one as 'actionable'.  Do you see why a diagnosis alone is only one factor when determining how much a person's parenting is impacted?

[flourdust]

I can back up ForeverDad on that, Strugglingthroo.

My ex has a diagnosis of BPD -- I've got it right there on paper. I've entered it into evidence during discovery, and I tried to bring it up during mediation over custody. The mediator shut me down right away. "Just because someone has BPD doesn't mean they can't be a good parent."

I pivoted to talking about her patterns of behavior, and how those patterns of behavior affected her parenting and our child.

That did make a difference to the mediator. Not the label -- the documented problem behaviors.

[GaGrl]

My DH divorced his uNPD/BPD then-wife after many years of staying to provide (some) stability for the kids and then a long period of stagnation. His ex both stonewalled and presented outrageous demands. TH finally lost patience and told her he was scheduling the court date. She immediately settled.

For the ex, it was avoiding any examination of her business... .there were legalities involved that could not bear a close look. That was her "button."

 what might be your wife's button?

[Strugglingthroo]

Very good information.  Thank you all for the replies.

It is a very good point that merely stating she has been diagnosed with BPD won't carry as much weight as showing how it is impacting her ability to parent and to function.  I have started to keep a journal of times she's missed a doctor's appointment with one of the kids, forgotten medication, etc. 

Gagrl, very good question on what her "button" is.  I too am hoping that when she sees there's a court date coming she will become more realistic in her demands.  Really don't know what to expect as it seems like the button can change on a daily basis.  I do agree with you all that my expectations of being able to go through this quickly are nothing but a pipe dream.  My anxiety is just not knowing what to expect next.  It's very hard to predict.

[Strugglingthroo]

So the next step is interrogatories. I’m pretty nervous about how she’s going to react. Does anyone have any experience with how their BPD spouse reacted when faced with providing answers and documents for interrogatories?  I’m not sure if it will overwhelm her and push her towards settlement or if it will anger her so much she digs in for the long haul.

[kells76]

Hi Strugglingthroo;

I remember when DH was prepping for (potential) court. During discovery both he and his ex (the kids' mom) got the same list of stuff to produce, as far as I recall. We diligently dug up everything we could and it got delivered to Mom's attorney. Did Mom provide us with equivalent data, you ask?

Nope!

Either -- she knew she wasn't, and didn't care, or

she "believed" she "bent over backwards" to comply (even though she didn't).

I guess that would be the "digging in her heels" delay approach? Not cooperative, not following the instructions.

If I were in your place, I would set the bar low for what I expect. I would probably expect noncompliance, "I don't want to answer that", "How should I know where X is", "You have it, not me", and commentary that is irrelevant and blame-y.

I would recommend -- as I'm sure other members will, too -- that you don't turn over anything you collect UNTIL you and your L are SURE that your spouse has done the same: i.e., "Of course, Other Lawyer, we have Documents A-Z and full answers to Questions 1-9. We are prepared to EXCHANGE documentation once Spouse has collected/completed it all as well" (or something).

Just take it step by step. Nice job reaching out for advice in your journey. That's smart to get second opinions about how to proceed.

[livednlearned]

So the next step is interrogatories. I’m pretty nervous about how she’s going to react. Does anyone have any experience with how their BPD spouse reacted when faced with providing answers and documents for interrogatories?  I’m not sure if it will overwhelm her and push her towards settlement or if it will anger her so much she digs in for the long haul.

It sounds like her go-to is obstruction, delay, doing nothing. Is that fair to say?

So you might see the deadline approach like kells76 mentions, and pfffft. Nothing.

What's the plan if she delivers nothing?

[ForeverDad]

In my divorce neither side asked for interrogatories.  However, when I went back to court for solutions when I was seeking majority time, her lawyer sent over a list that appeared designed for divorces, asking for accounts, financial histories, kitchen sink, etc.  However, it was a subpoena to be complied with.  I prepared over 600 pages.  My lawyer was frustrated at their lack of response when he reached out to them and though he sent it over anyway, he also filed our own list of focused interrogatories.  You can guess how that turned out.  Zero response.  In the end it wasn't even raised in court.  Immense waste of time, my time.

Lawyer and I were frustrated.  I told L that if that ever happened again I would tell him not to hand anything over until we got an exchange.  ":)ear Ex's Lawyer, we have prepared our response to your interrogatories.  We are ready to exchange once you have prepared a response to our interrogatories."

[livednlearned]

Also probably worth telling your L to grant no extensions without your express permission.

Your L works for you.

If you don't want this to drag on for years, then you have to get out of the business of granting extensions to someone who uses them to stay negatively engaged.