wife had 11 yr old daughter call me and say I couldn't come to her volleyballgms

[Sluggo]

I went to my daughters volleyball game yesterday.  Wife said I needed to leave and only one of us could be there.  She had my other children move from sitting by me to another place away from me.  

*Then she said leave, I didn't respond but just kept watching game.

*Then she said never to come to another game of hers, I didn't respond but just watched game

*Then she said, if you dont leave now I will pull our daughter out of volleyball and she wont play again.  

I stayed.

People were all around us is why I stayed quiet.  As soon as the game was over, I said goodbye to our other children who were sitting away from me.  I left.  My wife followed me out the door and yelled for me but I just kept walking.  

Then after 45 min my 11 daughter left a voice mail message. Papi please don't come to anymore volleyball games or Mami is going to take me out.  I called her back and she answered and said the same thing.  It sounded like I was on speaker phone... .I just said before she hung up... . don't worry about it I won't.  I love you.  As I was saying that she hung up.  

I had moved out 2.5 weeks ago and realize that my wife will do anything.  Anything is possible and she will sacrifice our kids to get what she wants.  

I found a lawyer and decided the only way to get access to my kids is to go this route,  So sad.  

[Concerns]

Oh,man. I'm so sorry. This is my greatest fear. The angry spouse that uses the children against you. Your daughter was obviously scared to be pulled out of volleyball by your wife... ."or mami will take me out". Getting a lawyer sounds like a great thing. I think the law system is starting to look at parental alienation very seriously now. She really can't purposefully use the children as weapons to hurt you. Its considered abuse at this point. With witnesses in a public place, she seems really out of sorts. With her behavior, as such, I would seek full custody of those kids. Oh and save the voicemail.

[Thunderstruck]

You did the right thing at the game, imho.

It sounds like your BPDx had an extinction burst and took it out on your D. Very sad. Does your x usually follow through with her threats?

If it were me, you can bet that I would be there at every single game. First I would send x an email exactly stating what happened. Then I would state that it is in the best interest for both parents to be there to support D. Then I would say something like I'll stay on my side and you can stay on yours. Then I would go to every single game.

[ForeverDad]

I went to my daughters volleyball game yesterday.  Wife said I needed to leave and only one of us could be there.  She had my other children move from sitting by me to another place away from me. 

*Then she said leave, I didn't respond but just kept watching game.

*Then she said never to come to another game of hers, I didn't respond but just watched game

*Then she said, if you dont leave now I will pull our daughter out of volleyball and she wont play again. 

I stayed.

People were all around us is why I stayed quiet.  As soon as the game was over, I said goodbye to our other children who were sitting away from me.  I left.

You did the right thing at the game.

Yes, best not to make a scene if it can be reasonably avoided.

Then after 45 min my 11 daughter left a voice mail message. Papi please don't come to anymore volleyball games or Mami is going to take me out.  I called her back and she answered and said the same thing.  It sounded like I was on speaker phone... .I just said before she hung up... .  don't worry about it I won't.  I love you.  As I was saying that she hung up. 

I had moved out 2.5 weeks ago and realize that my wife will do anything.  Anything is possible and she will sacrifice our kids to get what she wants. 

I found a lawyer and decided the only way to get access to my kids is to go this route,  So sad.

If it were me, you can bet that I would be there at every single game. First I would send x an email exactly stating what happened. Then I would state that it is in the best interest for both parents to be there to support D. Then I would say something like I'll stay on my side and you can stay on yours. Then I would go to every single game.

You are newly separated.  Apparently there are no court orders yet?  Then there are even more reasons not to quit attending her games.  First, without orders you and your stbEx have equal but undefined rights to the children.  If she tried to take her off the team you could tell the school or coach that you don't want her removed from the team.  Second, court almost certainly will not order either parent to stay away from school, school activities or games.  Third, and this is important, though you don't want the children put in the middle it can't be avoided if stbEx does it, so you also need firm boundaries to preserve your portion of parenting.  StbEx is staking her ground as Controller and Dictator, perhaps you can share with us what her terms and demands are.  Very likely too much is entitlement and very little is fair.  Court may be glacially slow in the divorce process but court will support good boundaries or at least not prohibit them.  Therefore, I agree with Thunderstruck, attend the games.  Be there for your children.  And if it is your parenting time then the children get to sit with you!

When you communicate with stbEx be sure that you don't make promises, statements or emotional overreactions that you may regret later.  (If you lose your temper or even start shouting you risk her making allegations you are abusive, need 'Anger Management' or even ought to have your parenting restricted.  Never underestimate the scary allegations a pwBPD can make!)

In this case your knee jerk reaction was to say you won't attend any more.  Well, if that happens then it will be harder to resume attending later on.  Put another way, is it okay with you to not attend any of the children's games and other activities ever again?  That appears to be stbEx's goal, at least at this time.  In addition, acquiesce and compliance to her demands will not stop the demands, quite the reverse, it will probably give her incentive to make even more demands.

Hopefully she will relent on the more extreme of her demands.  Court actually expects some conflict.  But it can get peeved if it is over the top ridiculous and if it persists too long.

What do you think is best for your children?  Then stand up for yourself and make sure your lawyer knows what you expect of him/her.  This is not a time to retreat.  On the other hand, choose your battles, decide what takes priority, you can't resolve every issue in court.  However, this is a good time to hold to good boundaries.

Are the children in counseling?  Courts like counseling.  StbEx is likely to oppose it so until you can get that handled in court you can inform your school and its counselors about the separation, impending legal issues and ask for their support.  Having good rapport with the school will go a long way if and when evaluators get involved either for court purposes or to investigate allegations.

[livednlearned]

Oof, these are tough situations.

If you go to the games, then BPDmom pulls D11 out of volleyball. Even though BPDmom is calling the shots here, she will tell D11 you are the reason there can be no more volleyball.  :'(  Making you into the bad guy.

Some researchers describe BPD as an inability to individuate, which means they don't fully form a stable sense of self. Part of that means that she cannot integrate conflicting or opposing feelings (like being mad at you, while potentially recognizing she has positive feelings too). So when she is angry at someone, they become "all bad." And because she cannot individuate, she sees D11 as an extension of herself. That means if BPD mom doesn't want to see you at volleyball, then D11 cannot want to see you at volleyball either.

It's the very beginnings of parental alienation, which can become a wicked problem when it hits the court system. You may want to read what Dr. Craig Childress has written about parental alienation.

Lesson 5 on the Coparenting board is all about Raising Resilient Kids when one parent has BPD. This is essential reading because the psychological warfare involved in a high-conflict separation can be toxic to kids, especially ones that are psychologically sensitive or fragile. Read everything you can about validation so you can learn how to interact with your girls and help them navigate what's happening.

For example, you'll want to master the art of asking validating questions. When D11 is put in the position of asking you to not come to her volleyball game (a very unnatural and painful thing for a child to ask for, much less want), you may need to revisit this next time you see her. Instead of defending yourself (which her mom will anticipate), the key is to ask, "How did you feel when mami said I can't come to the games anymore?" and "Why do you think mami asked me to do that?" D11 is going to need a lot of practice confirming how she feels, because her mom is going to want to insert her feelings into that process and deny D11 her own emotional reality.

Like others have said, have rock solid boundaries and document everything. It won't be easy, and it's also critical to getting a good outcome with the courts. Are you in the U.S.?

[david]

Save the voice mail message and any others that may occur. Documenting all this stuff may be helpful down the road.

[Sluggo]

Thank you for all the input. 

yes my wife usually does carry out her threats.  I debated very long about going to the game on Sunday.  It was at our parish and just felt like I would put my daughter in a bad spot.  The lawyer I hired was getting the paperwork ready and believe something will be sent out this week for divorce and will request guardianship.  There was mention of the GAL in his email also. 

Great thoughts on the questions to ask my daughter. 

Thank you for the support.