More on lack of decision making

[daylily]

There has been a lot of discussion here about how our pwBPD have trouble making decisions.  It has been observed (and I agree) that they don't want to make decisions because they don't want to be blamed when/if the outcome is bad.  They'd rather we make the decisions so they can blame us when things go south.  Of course, my uBPDh won't make a decision and if I make one, even if it works out well, he says he's miserable in life because I don't involve him in the decision-making.  

After a week or so of tolerating my H's silent treatment over our upcoming vacation plans (communicating only when necessary about the kids), I spoke with my H about decision making.  He has frequently said that he's "along for the ride" in my life and that I make all the decisions and he is just basically living my life alongside me.  (He could not, however, come up with any alternatives for the decisions I had made that he thinks would have worked out better.)  I noted after some Support and Empathy that I am struggling because I feel like if I don't make a decision, none will be made.  He said that his philosophy on life (and he noted that he thinks it's worked well for him) is to simply let life make the decisions for you, i.e., if you're faced with choices, life eventually will lead you in one direction or another by eliminating a choice or steering you toward another one.  His criticism of me is that I make choices too soon before "life" steers us in another direction.  So what I see as being proactive and shaping my life the way I want it to be is seen by him as being premature and unnecessary.

Has anyone else observed this same reasoning in your pwBPD?  Of course, I think it's just a cop out or an excuse for not making decisions... .

  :)aylily

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[Linlu53]

My experience has been similar. My uBPDh has a hard time making decisions. We can almost never plan ahead to go anywhere. It always has to be a last minute decision. I have learned to not tell him plans until a few days before because he will get anxious about it. Threaten not to go or to not let me go, etc. he says he doesn't plan because his plans always get changed anyway! He has his own business, which causes problems because he will hardly ever make appointments. He just tells the customer he will call before he comes to their house. Not sure where this trait fits in with BPD. Any one with insight?

[Chosen]

daylily, 

Your experience mirrors mine, except, well, I haven't got to the point where H can talk about his lack of decision making- a BPD trait that is out there for the entire world to see (his family and close friends would joke that you can ask him something in the beginning of a meal and let him have a whole meal's time to give you an answer).  Like you, if I make a deicison, thinking I am helping, he will (and has) say that I don't involve him, and also he is living his life passively.  He reminds me of that all the time, when it is not true- he jut avoids making any decision!

I also feel like if I don't make decisions, none will be made.  I'm very quick at making decisions (sometimes too quick, acting before I think), but for minor things (where to go on vacation, dinner, buying stuff) I don't mind making quick decisions because there's always another time which you can do something different.  However, what I'm learning to do is not to make a move when "the enemy" has not made a move (came out of Sun Tsz's Art of War or something  ).  You throw an issue/ problem out, he makes a deicison or initiates discussion.  If not, then you don't make it for him.  Yes, things get done a lot slower, and it's very trying for a person with little patience like me (I'm a do-er!), but at least it's better than helping him finish off stuff AND getting blamed for it. 

Linlu53, my H hates planning these things as well.  Which means if people are planning on meeting up, he will usually not give any firm reply, and just "go with the flow" (see what his mood is that day).  It annoys me as I'm a more planned person and I like to make use of my time effectively.  Like you, I only tell him until quite near that time, which also means that I can't give a firm reply to friends... . I think it fits in with BPD traits but have no idea how to "change" them.  I guess we can just do whatever to make us more comfortable and them less anxious.

[waverider]

Mine makes quick decisions, but constantly switches. There is no maybes, only definite yes set it in concrete, followed by no way cancel. Hence in effect nothing planned actually happens.

Ibn this case it is simply unable to balance pros and cons and make a considered compromise and committed decision. The pros and and cons pop up in sequence and thus the decision switches to match.

Problem with this is it runs roughshod over everyone else's plans, as she tries to make you fit around them. I cant take over and make definate plans for 'us" only for me, and that is harder than it would seem.

[daylily]

Thanks everyone.  

Linlu: Yes, planning ahead of time is always an issue.  But not informing him of something ahead of time so he can have an inordinate amount of time to mull ito over doesn't work either.  Another of those situations with pwBPD where we are between a rock and a hard place.

Chosen: I too am a "doer" and a "planner."  And I'm overwhelmed pretty much all the time so if I don't get things done when I'm thinking about them, they risk being overlooked later.  I have found that what you're saying works pretty well.  If I give my H a LONG time to think about something, he'll usually reach a decision, and most of the time it's the same as the one I would have made MONTHS earlier.  But of course there's selective memory later if it goes bad, and suddenly it was my decision.  Or most recently, it's that I was the one who gave him the "universe" of choices, all of which were bad, and so even though he participated in making the decision that went south, it's my fault because I limited the choices on the front end.  To this, I responded that I'd like him to do the research next time and come up with the "universe" of choices, from which we will choose.  He didn't want to do that.

I have been trying to send him emails with lists of things that need to get done and that we need to discuss.  He ignores them, so I have to bring them up again later, but at least it shows that I'm trying to involve him (and maybe gives him a hint of what I do every day for our family... . who am I kidding?  NOT.)

Waverider: Everyone else's plans are always an issue.  I don't know how to respond to invitations.  We always end up RSVP'ing after deadlines, or not at all.  I have to say "maybe" to everything.  This past weekend my brother and his wife were in town with their baby.  I couldn't get a committment out of my H for when we would see them or what we would do with them.  I had originally committed to seeing them on Sunday, but had to cancel that.  Then they asked what we were doing that day, and I had to tell them our plans (without them).  I felt like such a flake and so disrespectful.  And my H hasn't seen them during their visit, but I don't know that he wants to anyway (another story altogether).  I subjected myself to drama with H just planning for me and the kids to go see my brother/sister in law/baby.  We ended up going, but H was in a bad mood all day because we went and left him at home.  Comes with the territory, I guess.

What amazes me is the fact that it takes so long to make a decision on something, but only an instant to come up with a convoluted reason why something is my fault (or not his fault).  Hmmmm... .

  :)aylily

[Chosen]

2nd to everything you're saying.  I can't give him to-do lists because he doesn't respond well to those.  He'd either ignore or complain about me nagging (ironic is it?), so I don't really do that now.  I give him deadlines (like "if we want to go on this vacation, we have to book before hit to get the bargain", then leave him to it.  If he doesn't respond before that time, it means he doesn't want to.  Sometimes he will respond after and claim he didn't remember I have said it before; whatever, he has selective memory and remembers "bad" things I have said before very well. 

Everyone else's plans are always an issue.  I don't know how to respond to invitations.  We always end up RSVP'ing after deadlines, or not at all.  I have to say "maybe" to everything.

What amazes me is the fact that it takes so long to make a decision on something, but only an instant to come up with a convoluted reason why something is my fault (or not his fault).  Hmmmm... .

Exactly the rut I’m in too.  I hate, hate, hate being so irresponsible to other people!  If I had sent out an invitation and people all give me “maybes” or ignore me, I’d never invite them again, so I’m surprised my friends still invite me… Sometimes I become avoidant and just ignore it when people invite me to stuff, because if I say I can’t reply to them yet due to H’s lack of decision (not exact wording but same meaning), it would really seem like I’m talking about him behind his back.  If he knows about it (people who don’t think he has problems may use it as a joke and just mention it) then he will perceive it as an attack.

There is a script to everything they do.  They put off making decisions for as long as they can, and they “forget” about the part they play when things going south.  Of course, if you dare to bring that up, then they will rage at you for attacking them.  We can’t change them.  What I try to change now is how I don’t “play along” anymore, so at least my actions are blameless.  This doesn’t mean he will not try to blame me, but at least I won’t be guilty of whatever he’s saying…

[waverider]

Waverider: Everyone else's plans are always an issue.  I don't know how to respond to invitations.  We always end up RSVP'ing after deadlines, or not at all.  I have to say "maybe" to everything.  This past weekend my brother and his wife were in town with their baby.  I couldn't get a committment out of my H for when we would see them or what we would do with them.  I had originally committed to seeing them on Sunday, but had to cancel that.  Then they asked what we were doing that day, and I had to tell them our plans (without them).  I felt like such a flake and so disrespectful.  And my H hasn't seen them during their visit, but I don't know that he wants to anyway (another story altogether).  I subjected myself to drama with H just planning for me and the kids to go see my brother/sister in law/baby.  We ended up going, but H was in a bad mood all day because we went and left him at home.  Comes with the territory, I guess.

Yes if you knock back, or only give maybes, based on this problem then the invitations start to dry up and you are heading down the path of social isolation. That it is why it is important to at least make definite and accommodating arrangements for yourself.

[daylily]

Yes if you knock back, or only give maybes, based on this problem then the invitations start to dry up and you are heading down the path of social isolation. That it is why it is important to at least make definite and accommodating arrangements for yourself.

This is a tough one.  I usually don't make plans without him anymore.  I admit that a lot of it is that I don't want to face his wrath - if he doesn't want to go, he doesn't want me to go either.  He says he wants to spend "family time" on the weekends so he doesn't like it when I take the kids and go off by myself somewhere.  Sometimes after he says that, we do something fun as a family instead.  Sometimes, though, he won't spend much time with us at all - he sits in the other room and watches TV or studies.  I fully admit that I'm enabling him with this and "letting the dog walk me" to use a Waverider analogy. 

At the same time, there also are logistics that cause problems.  Because he watches the kids during the week while I'm at work, I have "responsibility" for them on the weekends.  If I want to go somewhere without the kids, I have to ask him to watch them, which is met with A LOT of resistance.  If I have someone else watch them, this also is met with A LOT of resistance, because he feels guilty that he didn't agree to watch them and doesn't want the someone else to think they need to pick up his "slack." 

If I'm taking the kids with me, I find it hard to manage both by myself, as my daughter is at a crazy age where she's into everything and seemingly out to hurt herself.  So then we have the same problem as above - I need him there, and I can't ask someone else to go with me without him getting upset.

Yes, I know, I need to stop living my life around his issues... .

  Daylily

[elessar]

my ex is just like that. can't make plans. i always have to make them. and then half the times she wouldn't like them. or if she did, when angry she would complain about how i made plans for things she doesn't like. she would say, you plan for all these things and i have no interest in them... . we have nothing in common... . we shouldn't be together. and if i tell her what would you like to do, the obvious reply of hers is "i don't know. u pick... . anything". meeting her up on friday. i told her to plan to something. i decided i wont. she has come up with zero plans. looks like we will stay in a room cutting cake and drinking champagne. and the next time she is pissed, i know i will hear "all u want to do is stay in a room with me." the story has repeated so many times that i can predict her each behavior. ok while writing this i am wondering why am i still tolerating it. i have been asking myself that question for a few years now. we are all here because we can't let go of them... .

[waverider]

Yes if you knock back, or only give maybes, based on this problem then the invitations start to dry up and you are heading down the path of social isolation. That it is why it is important to at least make definite and accommodating arrangements for yourself.

This is a tough one.  I usually don't make plans without him anymore.  I admit that a lot of it is that I don't want to face his wrath - if he doesn't want to go, he doesn't want me to go either.  He says he wants to spend "family time" on the weekends so he doesn't like it when I take the kids and go off by myself somewhere.  Sometimes after he says that, we do something fun as a family instead.  Sometimes, though, he won't spend much time with us at all - he sits in the other room and watches TV or studies.  I fully admit that I'm enabling him with this and "letting the dog walk me" to use a Waverider analogy. 

At the same time, there also are logistics that cause problems.  Because he watches the kids during the week while I'm at work, I have "responsibility" for them on the weekends.  If I want to go somewhere without the kids, I have to ask him to watch them, which is met with A LOT of resistance.  If I have someone else watch them, this also is met with A LOT of resistance, because he feels guilty that he didn't agree to watch them and doesn't want the someone else to think they need to pick up his "slack." 

If I'm taking the kids with me, I find it hard to manage both by myself, as my daughter is at a crazy age where she's into everything and seemingly out to hurt herself.  So then we have the same problem as above - I need him there, and I can't ask someone else to go with me without him getting upset.

Yes, I know, I need to stop living my life around his issues... .

  Daylily

They are are also very adept at allowing logistics to get in the way and hence responsible for what they want to happen.

My problem is my partner allows plans to drift and run late so that either its too late to implement or act on plan B It's like she has taken a big chalk board rubber and slowly wiped through the days agenda until the day ends and nothing is achieved. But it is done in a slow "wasn't my fault, someone must have moved the chalkboard" type of way.