Success with 'DEAR' technique (perhaps just 2 steps forward, 1 step back)

[pessim-optimist]

We were sensing the cooling off in the relationship in the last two weeks. Whenever my sd32 is getting closer to her mom, she starts more fights with her dad regarding the past. Unfortunately, her mom keeps the conflict going by active alienation tactics until today.

Sure enough, sd called her dad last week and started a typical fight/blame fest. He realized that he did get sucked into 1 1/2 hour of trying to reason with her. Later we agreed that it was a circular argument that doesn't solve anything and only hurts both parties, and the best solution was to nicely end the conversation early. He DID manage to end the conversation nicely though, telling her that he hoped she could have a better, more peaceful evening.

Still, we thought that she felt the need to go n/c because the black/white thinking does not allow her to be close to both her mom and dad, and if we did not contact her soon enough, she would either take that as a reason to go n/c, or she would call up to pick another fight, to have a reason for n/c. At the same time, what she was saying during the conversation was a breach of our boundary that we set with her before.

So, my husband decided to try e-mailing her in the DEAR format (Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce), adding Empathy:

"Hi dd,

When you called on xx, we ended up talking about things from the past that we’ve discussed before and that we disagree on.

These conversations are very stressful for me. I feel attacked hearing the same accusations repeatedly. I feel like I keep hearing from your mother or sister through you, and I don’t want that.

In the future, if you bring up one of these issues, I will let you know. I may end the conversation and we can talk later, when we both feel better.

This way, with less fighting and stress between us, our relationship can be more peaceful.

I know our conversation must have been stressful for you too. I hope you are feeling better today.

Love, dad"

She called back the same day, saying that she will 'forgive him one day', and that he is right, it is stressful and she wants to take a 'break', maybe one-two monts. He said: ok, honey, I want what's best for you. We can do that, take as long as you need and call me when you feel like it. They chatted a bit, he wished her well, told her he loved her, and they hung up.

RESULT: we are in effect n/c, BUT we felt like it was going to happen anyway (she being close to mom), AND this time, we accomplished that in a peaceful way, giving her the way out without her having to escalate the conflict.

We will see what the future brings, it may escalate yet, however, I think we weathered this crisis.  

Thank you guys for your continued support! I don't think this would be possible without you.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[crazedncrazymom]

passim

  I'm so happy to hear that even though the nc is still going to happen that it happened in a much peaceful way.  That is HUGE and you and dh must feel so much better about how it happened.  I think it makes a lot of sense that sd can't have a relationship with both her parents at the same time.  It's hard for someone without issues to feel loyal to both people at the same time.  I hope one day she can see it doesn't have to be either/or.

Best of luck.  Your dh did a great job!

-crazed

[jellibeans]

I can see how this must be a very hard position for your dd and I think your h handled the call well. I wonder if there are any resorces here that can help further. These kind of circular arguements are exhausting and do nothing to resolve conflict. I hope that a break will allow her come back and have a better relationship with you both.

[qcarolr]

pessio - thanks so very much for sharing this success. And it feels like a big success to me. Your dh built an unconditional, loving connection with his D. Hope she can hold the warmth of this moment in her heart on a cold day.

Over time the seemingly small successful love connections can build to a better relationship.

qcr

[pessim-optimist]

Thank you guys, we do feel much better about it, even though we are not too excited for obvious reasons: n/c is still n/c.

One other thing that I forgot to mention was that when she told my husband that 'she will forgive him one day, but doesn't know when', he was then able to say that he is really sorry for any decisions he made in the past that hurt her. I think that that must have felt good to her, and validated her feelings.

In the past, she would go into her blame/rage, she was not able to hear anything AND my husband did not feel like he could apologize for anything, because the things she was saying we re SO off, that an apology would have been 'validating the invalid'.

I wonder if there are any resorces here that can help further.

You mean what the next step would be? That is a really good question... .I will search it out. Or perhaps someone else will have a good idea.

[Rapt Reader]

I can see how this must be a very hard position for your dd and I think your h handled the call well. I wonder if there are any resorces here that can help further. These kind of circular arguements are exhausting and do nothing to resolve conflict. I hope that a break will allow her come back and have a better relationship with you both.

Hi, you guys 

I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for, as far as further resources, but after learning Validation, S.E.T., DEARMAN, etc., I found that though all of that helped me immensely with my dBPDson36 and husband, for some reason I couldn't be successful with my non-Son34 & his uBPDwife. It really tangled me up in knots trying to deal with them. Circular arguments would happen periodically where they would just go round and round on the hamster wheel of everything I ever did that they found fault with. It was exhausting for me, and didn't lend itself to any of the techniques above.

You've probably read this from me before, on other threads here, but what made that hamster wheel stop and has changed my relationship with them is what I learned on this Workshop: How do we become more empathetic to the pwBPD in our life? For some reason, reading this and learning it just changed the way I looked at them and understood them; things will never be the same with me again. I find my relationships with my Son36 and husband are better too. Something just clicked, and I use the other techniques better than before I learned about the super-duper empathy skills.

It just made the circular arguments stop; and I don't think I'll get caught up in them again. They may never even start them again, because I'll be able to nip them in the bud; I understand where all of it came from now. And I commiserate and validate that; the underlying pain, anger, sadness and fears that they have had. Maybe someone else will find this happen to them, too?

[qcarolr]

I need some help with communicating, or deciding if not communicating is better, with my BPDDD27. Help breaking out of my old patterns of getting too involved in the details of her life. Then my injection of opinion may shift how others communicate or respond to her, or her to them. This topic seems appropriate to ask for guidance.

Here is a reply I copied from the link Rapt Reader gave here, from the workshop on empathy, that seems to apply:

Quote from: pessim-optimist on October 23, 2013, 07:40:57 PM

2. How other tools can help us be more empathetic:

When I learned more about the disorder, and the ways of BPD thinking, it helped me understand better what is going on.

That in turn helps with tunning-in to the person, listening to their experience with detachment, rather than focusing on their actual words of accusation (which may be inaccurate, or a manifestation of another issue that they are dealing with). I can look at their world and focus on what's going on with them - their experience. It has nothing to do with me (for the moment). It frees me to be more empathetic.


#2 is really helpful for me. Esp. the part I can look at their world and focus on what's going on with them - their experience. It has nothing to do with me (for the moment).  When I am attuned in this way it does free me from sinking into a distressed place myself. It really is not all about me.

qcr

I can be in this attuned place before I have a time set up to connect with DD. Have what I need to say all laid out with plans A,B,C in my mind depending on aniticipated responses from her. Then  we connect - text, phone, face-to-face, and:

1. my mind goes blank, I space out  - some kind of dissociation kicks in because I am in fear about how she will react. Even when we are texting! (I am taking teeny-tiny steps to work on this with my T)

2. her reply to my initial comment is so far away from any of my plans I go back to #1.

3. she asks for something from me, I impulsively react with a tentative,' well OK', then realize I need to say No, and either retract my 'OK' or tolerate the consequences to saying yes. Once she perceives a positive reply, she does not hear anything after that. I know this is very confusing for her, I do not WANT to do this, and I keep on reacting this way. She calls me on this -- that I give and then take back. How do I train myself to say, "I WILL HAVE TO GET BACK WITH YOU ON THAT" -- ie. never say yes in the moment.

4. I avoid confrontation by not responding at all. Maybe another form of #1. This is also confusing for DD.

Example:

DD is living in monthly motel and in a dual-dx probation program. I offered to meet her for lunch - to stay connected. Text on Monday - we agreed on Wednesday. Then she texts 1:30 on Tuesday that she is available for lunch now. So I have to respond that has to wait until Weds. And I am struggling during all this with physical stress signals - increased rates of breathing, pulse, muslce tension - and menatl stress - wanting to turn off my phone. I leave it up to her to contact be before noon on Weds. to get together.

She does text me. I pick her up, she asks to stop to check to PACE and has missed the deadline again. Checkin is before 10:30 each morning. So we stop and do that. Then at lunch she wants to set up weekly time to come to the house to do laundry, let dogs play and see gd. Gd does not want to see her mom, or have her even in our town. Gd's T is totally behind not having DD at our house - gd is showing so much imrovement in her anxiety we may do a trial off her meds over Thanksgiving. So why is it so hard for me to just say no to DD. Why do I feel compelled to come up with indirect ways of putting this off.

1. It feels reasonable for her to do laundry at my house, when gd is not there. I feel mean saying no.

2. I want her to have clean clothes to wear instead of her spending her little money on clean clothes from the nearby Goodwill Store - that was next door to where we ate lunch and I ended up spending $20 on socks, gloves, hat for her.

3. How do I make this not about me -- and about her being responsible for her own needs. PACE wants me to let her figure it out. Why do I keep interfereing.

Is this about getting empathy confused with enabling?  I appreciate any suggestions.

qcr

ps. pessio - seems my issues are opposite of your dh's. too much contact vs. nc    strategies to use seem to apply both ways?

[pessim-optimist]

I need some help with communicating, or deciding if not communicating is better, with my BPDDD27. Help breaking out of my old patterns of getting too involved in the details of her life. Then my injection of opinion may shift how others communicate or respond to her, or her to them. This topic seems appropriate to ask for guidance.

Reading your post, I think you are aware of the need for a change in your communication with your dd.

I don't know what will do the trick. Perhaps coordination/communication through PACE? What is your gut feeling on that?

(If you decide for n/c, I would clearly let dd know that it is temporary, and part of the plan of her working with PACE, and you learning new skills.)

If your dd was younger, and was in RTC, she would be in a different environment, forced to learn new, healthier patterns. You as a family would get a break to heal, AND to learn new patterns.

I think this dual diagnosis program might be trying to accomplish the same thing.

Are they available to talk with you about the over all goals?

1. my mind goes blank, I space out  - some kind of dissociation kicks in because I am in fear about how she will react. Even when we are texting! (I am taking teeny-tiny steps to work on this with my T)

2. her reply to my initial comment is so far away from any of my plans I go back to #1.

3. she asks for something from me, I impulsively react with a tentative,' well OK', then realize I need to say No, and either retract my 'OK' or tolerate the consequences to saying yes. Once she perceives a positive reply, she does not hear anything after that. I know this is very confusing for her, I do not WANT to do this, and I keep on reacting this way. She calls me on this -- that I give and then take back. How do I train myself to say, "I WILL HAVE TO GET BACK WITH YOU ON THAT" -- ie. never say yes in the moment.

4. I avoid confrontation by not responding at all. Maybe another form of #1. This is also confusing for DD.

In all of these, I see FEAR/anxiety as the main issue. It is understandable, given the history. Fear for your dd, fear of what happens if you say no, fear for the r/s, your gd, your own safety, etc. etc.

In general, I experience anxiety when doing something new or stressful. If it goes well, my anxiety gradually diminishes, as I get more and more confident. If it does not go well, in the future, my anxiety is even higher if I try to deal with a similar situation.

Learning new patterns is imperative, I think. (To start - how about carrying a card with you that says: "don't say yes. Say, 'let me think about it, I will get back to you on that'?

Is this something you could work on with your therapist? Finding the 'baby steps' that you could practice, and gradually inch forward to more confidence/peace?

Example:

PACE wants me to let her figure it out.

Why do I keep interfereing.

Is this about getting empathy confused with enabling?  I appreciate any suggestions.

I think you are onto something... .Is it your love and possibly enmeshment with dd that keep you stuck?

Just my opinions, sent with love 

[qcarolr]

I need some help with communicating, or deciding if not communicating is better, with my BPDDD27. Help breaking out of my old patterns of getting too involved in the details of her life. Then my injection of opinion may shift how others communicate or respond to her, or her to them. This topic seems appropriate to ask for guidance.

Reading your post, I think you are aware of the need for a change in your communication with your dd.

I don't know what will do the trick. Perhaps coordination/communication through PACE? What is your gut feeling on that?

Are they available to talk with you about the over all goals?

The openness of PACE staff to listen to me has been good. The T did reply that DD had not shared any of what I told her when dropping off the evals. done in past. I shared my perception based on comments DD has made to me in the past. That she avoids T as it brings out of the lock-box all those feelings and memories that she cannot cope with, and then feels suicidal walking out of session with zero support. Also shared that she has OD'd several times,  2 times in my home with ER visits, and times when homeless taking narcotic meds with alcohol and "the sun just keeps coming up in the morning, guess I am just supposed to be here suffering for some unknown reason". T replied that this will need to be a slow process. And DD has to show up for appts. to begin.

I do not think they want me to be involved in the goals etc. They want me to stay out of the way so DD has to come to them for help. At some point there may be an opportunity for joint sessions, and for family sessions so she can reconnect with gd. I hope the T brings this up. I have shared the current distressed state for gd of even talking about her mom. Lots of fear there, and gd is working with her T on these issues.

1. my mind goes blank, I space out  - some kind of dissociation kicks in because I am in fear about how she will react. Even when we are texting! (I am taking teeny-tiny steps to work on this with my T)

2. her reply to my initial comment is so far away from any of my plans I go back to #1.

3. she asks for something from me, I impulsively react with a tentative,' well OK', then realize I need to say No, and either retract my 'OK' or tolerate the consequences to saying yes. Once she perceives a positive reply, she does not hear anything after that. I know this is very confusing for her, I do not WANT to do this, and I keep on reacting this way. She calls me on this -- that I give and then take back. How do I train myself to say, "I WILL HAVE TO GET BACK WITH YOU ON THAT" -- ie. never say yes in the moment.

4. I avoid confrontation by not responding at all. Maybe another form of #1. This is also confusing for DD.

In all of these, I see FEAR/anxiety as the main issue. It is understandable, given the history. Fear for your dd, fear of what happens if you say no, fear for the r/s, your gd, your own safety, etc. etc.


Is this something you could work on with your therapist? Finding the 'baby steps' that you could practice, and gradually inch forward to more confidence/peace?

I am working on this with T. She has asked me to come weekly. I can now afford this - my insurance has pitiful mental health care - acute mostly or groups that I cannot get to.

So much of the support I get here, and the reading I have done this year, seems to be coming together to reinforce how disabling my fear is. My T is so open to listening to what I have been reading here. Much of this reading has been to help me calm influence in gd's life - to regulate my own emotions so I can be present to help her learn to regulate hers.

THis came up in setting treatment goals this week for gd. Gd had expressed her needs so well, on her own. One was not hurting people when she is angry. And I asked about how to help her with this other than what feels like restraint hold on her (wrapping her from behind in a bear hug with her arms crossed in front fo her). The T said -- KEEP DOING THIS. As she experiences in her body the calming effects of this the time will come when she can do this for herself. To be patient and persevere.

Gd relaxes into me after a few deep breaths on my part. Gets in sync with my breathing. Gd is motivated to do better, and accepts that there is a better way to respond. She is asking for this support. There is so much hope here for both of us.

DD was not able to respond to this type of strategy, ever. She fought it -- too much touch overwhelmed her. Very high tactile defensiveness. I tried so many many things. Confirms for me the testing is accurate in an organic neurological foundation for her distress. Wish neurofeedback was available for her. The two therpists I spke to on the phone in our area said they would refuse to work with her. Once because he is close to retirement and does not want to work that hard anymore! He is the one with a home based option in the system he subscribes to. And there are no financial resoureces until medicaid would accept this  treatment. I have mentioned it to DD. Kind of raised eyebrow, silent response. Acceptance - radically so I can let others give it their best shot with her.

Example:

PACE wants me to let her figure it out.

Why do I keep interfereing.

Is this about getting empathy confused with enabling?  I appreciate any suggestions.

I think you are onto something... .Is it your love and possibly enmeshment with dd that keep you stuck?

I need to rely more on dh to step in here. This is only way I can keep my focus on what gd needs - no mention for now of her mom or the dog with her mom. gd misses the dog more than her mom. this causes some feelings of guilt for her. we can cope with the guilt - the seperation of feeling bad and coping is OK, 'being' bad to have feelings is not OK (shame).

Today dh took the clean laundry and some other things to drop off to her today. This took such a sense of burden from me. Hope he is able to contact her for delivery. Good for him to connect with her too -- dh is rarely a part of her narrative with T's.

Gotta get going for gd's horse riding class.

Thanks for your support and love.

qcr

[pessim-optimist]

The openness of PACE staff to listen to me has been good.

I do not think they want me to be involved in the goals etc. They want me to stay out of the way so DD has to come to them for help.

I think this might be for dd to have to deal with new people and have to learn new patterns/behaviors/skills.

It is a great opportunity!

I would take it as a guideline and permission to stay out of the way, and refer dd to PACE if/when she needs things... .

That's good news about gd!