New user, unsure where to go in my marriage

[Stuck2023]

Hi there, so I'm new here and I guess this is my introduction post.

My husband shows what I think are traits of BPD although nothing is diagnosed. We were together a couple of years before we got married, a year further before we bought a house, and it's been another 4 years since then. We have no kids. Looking back I see maybe some traits showing from the early days, but its really only the last 3 or so years that it really got noticable. I think as responsibilities started adding up the more we took on (e.g. the house, pets) the stress got too much. He basically had a breakdown. We went from me taking slightly more of the household responsibilities (I'd lived independently for years before we met while he had not; he was learning slowly) to suddenly it was all on me. And not only finances, scheduling, life admin, but chores, and keeping him calm enough to function, and getting him into therapy... I feel like I stopped being a wife and started being a carer. My workload was huge, then I'd come home to more.

3 years on with a load of barely useful generic therapy, he's more stable and I'm trying to recover from burnout. Now I start seeing the issues more. I still feel like a carer not a wife. I realised how much of my home time is spent swallowing down my feelings because if I even hint he might be wrong about something or at fault even accidently it can trigger an argument and tears, and then he will lock himself away for the rest of the day - literally leaving me to deal with everything on my own. Keep my mouth shut and have some help (not full help, but some) or start something and have none. I started having a social life again and realised how little encouragement I get at home too. Our last argument where he said "how upsetting it was to him to see me snacking when I keep saying I need to get my diet in order" - when he's the one bringing home donuts and icecream actively giving them to me (I have no food willpower, I'm well aware and working on it). I compared this to being a few weeks into a fitness class recently. My instructor mentioned I was making progress, offered some tips and a challenge, and I didn't know how to respond to someone actually encouraging me to be better.

I've noticed that if I try and (calmly) enforce some boundaries about my time, or lay out some expectations, the result is either him locking himself away again or he starts subtly doing things to deliberately stress me out to get back at me. Its like living with a teenager but with no hope he'll grow out of it and you can't just tell him the move out.

Finally I told him that I'm unhappy and we need to get some help if this relationship is going to last. Booked a session with marriage counsellor coming up soon. His opinion was "if you want it, you book it" and he can't think of anything wrong in our relationship apparently. The whole event kicked off into a huge upset too - my pictures where taken off the wall, his wedding ring off for days, slept in the spare room for a few days, flat out ignoring me. He's currently in a super productive, doing all the chores around the house to prove a point stage so he can use it later as a "see, I do help and I am useful" statement. I don't know if counselling is going to help my marriage or prove it's not going to work. I'm not even sure which option I'd prefer at this point. I range from so upset I feel sick to my stomach at the thought of not having him there and having to figure out how to handle our joint friends, to craving the freedom and lack of anger and stress I might have, and finally fear of the logistics and emotional nightmare that separating would be.

I don't know what to write more so I guess I'll just sign off here. Thank you for letting me vent.

[Retfar]

I can completely relate to your situation. I look back on different situations with my husband and think “why didn’t I get this earlier?” We don’t have children together (which I am grateful for) but all children are grown and live out of state.
I am currently reading stop walking on eggshells, third edition and splitting because I don’t know if I should stay in the marriage or file for divorce. I’ve also listened to loving someone with bpd.
My husband isn’t in any kind of treatment for BPD or his alcoholism (another disease he has) but he is seeing a counselor. I haven’t noticed any improvement since he started seeing the counselor (only about a month). In fact, I think he is deteriorating. My husband threw his ring into a river so he doesn’t even have it anymore to put back on.
I wish I could offer you some solid advice but I can’t. The things that are helpful to me are reading, researching, and seeing a therapist myself to sort through the issues. So much of your post is so familiar.

[Stuck2023]

I am currently reading stop walking on eggshells, third edition and splitting because I don’t know if I should stay in the marriage or file for divorce. I’ve also listened to loving someone with bpd.

Thank you for your reply, it immediately feels better knowing someone else gets it. I’ll have to look up those books too.
My husband sees a counsellor fortnightly and has done for years now on top of other things like CBT. I don’t know it made much of a difference at all to be honest. 

[ConflictedWalrus]

I've noticed that if I try and (calmly) enforce some boundaries about my time, or lay out some expectations, the result is either him locking himself away again or he starts subtly doing things to deliberately stress me out to get back at me. Its like living with a teenager but with no hope he'll grow out of it and you can't just tell him the move out.

This is very relatable.

Towards the end of my r/s with uBPDstbxw she would withdraw / withhold interaction. I was too burned out from the "not fun" (mostly caretaking) parts of the r/s and didn't have any bandwidth for the "fun" (time together, affectionate) parts.

When she DID want to spend time together, she didn't get the response she wanted from me and would withdraw to another room. She would then be resentful towards me later for not spending time with her. Her withdrawal pushed me away and made me feel guilty, reinforcing and perpetuating the cycle.

I'll rightfully take some blame for not always being proactive in initiating time together or following thru on her requests. What I will no longer accept is the guilt she laid on me for failing to always be 100% available 100% of the time...

Instead, I must extend myself some grace by acknowledging how burnt out I really was (and how unfair/unreasonable her expectations of me were, given how little she brought to the table at that time).

[support1234]

I wish this didn’t sound so familiar, but I feel like I could have written this post myself. I don’t have advice because I am in the exact same place (except with kids).

I would love to know from others as well if this all sounds typical. I find it really hard to come back now that I am at the point of feeling like I have a teenager (husband) on top of my actual kids. I try to pull back and set boundaries but it is a disaster every single time. It’s just easier to keep quiet and keep on trucking, which is how I have stayed in this mess for so long.

[livednlearned]

It takes strength to not be emotionally injured in these relationships. There are skills to create a more validating environment, and skills to improve our boundaries, however these skills are not intuitive and must be learned.

A lot of pwBPD fail to find themselves lovable, therefore receiving love cannot happen despite the chronic need and desire for it. Because they cannot trust your love, you become the bad guy. Any minute you could abandon them, and probably will, and they are constantly scanning the environment for proof.

On our side, we often take their behaviors at face value (believing what they say about us). For many of us, the put-downs are familiar from childhood and there is a twisted safety in finding more proof that we do not deserve better.

Believing that you deserve to be treated with respect is critical. Enacting this belief is likely to change the status quo and trigger escalations because if you feel better you might leave (to someone who believes this is true anyway, it becomes even more true, and fear intensifies).

Your diet is your business. It is your body, your relationship, your journey.

What do you say when he makes comments about snacking? 

[ForeverDad]

You don't have children now.  Before you, he or the counseling raise the topic of having children, be aware that having children does NOT fix the significant mental health issues you face.  Rather, having children makes future decisions either more difficult, more limited or more complicated.  For example, if the marriage eventually fails, what would be essentially a matter of financial and ownership matters (house, accounts, debts, etc) would be immensely compounded by custody and parenting matters.

I've "been there, done that".  I was married for over a decade and as my spouse got more dejected I thought if we had a child then she would be happy seeing a wee one discover life.  Didn't work out that way.  She drew away from me, I was relentlessly told I was a bad dad, and the marriage failed even sooner.  And the divorce was all about custody and parenting.

So for now, until you know where your marriage is heading, whether it can survive, better to delay thoughts of children... KISS (keep it simple, silly).

[ForeverDad]

We were together a couple of years before we got married, a year further before we bought a house, and it's been another 4 years since then. We have no kids. Looking back I see maybe some traits showing from the early days, but its really only the last 3 or so years that it really got noticeable.

I see two changes about that time that made your relationship more "obligated".  (1) You married and (2) you bought a house.  Both would take determined effort to undo, hence the "obligated" aspect increased.  Your spouse may be unconsciously "letting his hair down" and letting you see his private persona since it is now more difficult to the relationship?

BPD F.O.G. = Fear, Obligation, Guilt

[Stuck2023]

Sorry for delay in replies. I only have chance to do this really on my lunch break. But thanks all for taking the time - its a massive breath of fresh air to just find people who understand straight away.

@ConflictedWalrus
Towards the end of my r/s with uBPDstbxw she would withdraw / withhold interaction. I was too burned out from the "not fun" (mostly caretaking) parts of the r/s and didn't have any bandwidth for the "fun" (time together, affectionate) parts.

So much this. Those times I do manage to scrape together energy for a film or something it's been amazing, his face lights up, we have a great time. But those times can be far between, and if I turn it down it feels like I kicked a puppy he is so hurt and withdraws.

@livednlearned
On our side, we often take their behaviors at face value (believing what they say about us). For many of us, the put-downs are familiar from childhood and there is a twisted safety in finding more proof that we do not deserve better.
...
Your diet is your business. It is your body, your relationship, your journey. What do you say when he makes comments about snacking?

I'm exceedingly lucky that I don't take it to heart. My relationship with food and my waistline is a huge issue for me and has been for years, but I know what my issues are and I know how hard I work to try and keep it in check, and how impossible its been over the stress levels of the last year or so. My internal reaction to his comments is either anger because I know he's just trying to say something hurtful, or disbelief that he could actually believe he has no effect on it. I usually just don't respond at all though; "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" kind of route.

@ForeverDad
You don't have children now.  Before you, he or the counseling raise the topic of having children, be aware that having children does NOT fix the significant mental health issues you face.

Children are not in the foreseeable, for better or worse. We've discussed it in the past and agreed things like an age limit that I'm comfortable to have them, and the requirement for health and mental health to be stable before we try. It comes up in arguments that "I'm not trying to meet our agreements". I'm also really aware that if this marriage does fall apart I've basically kissed my chance at a biological family goodbye for various reasons. It will be a grief beyond just losing a husband if it comes to it... no I'm not going to think about that at work. Bit too much for a lunch hour!

@ForeverDad
I see two changes about that time that made your relationship more "obligated".  (1) You married and (2) you bought a house.  Both would take determined effort to undo, hence the "obligated" aspect increased.  Your spouse may be unconsciously "letting his hair down" and letting you see his private persona since it is now more difficult to the relationship?

It could be. I could see it being stress related, in struggling himself to handle the level of commitment, but it could be that kind of 'getting comfortable' too. Right now he's upped his game since he's realised there's a risk I could walk away from the relationship. If only he could keep this up without a perceived threat hanging over him...

[Tangled mangled]

Hi Stuck,
I’m sorry that you are experiencing these issues with your BPD husband.
I’m here to offer support and to echo what others have said.
A few points that caught my attention
1) the stonewalling and the forced caretaker role:
looks like you are always in doubt that he will step to dealing with responsibilities around the home and this is quite apparent in the anxiety you experience at home. I experienced exactly the same with my ex husband. He literally checked out whenever we had to deal with life. He will refuse to have conversations and in the early stages of our relationship he use to burst out crying whenever we had an argument about his behaviour. I told him outright that he was manipulating me with his tears and over time this stopped. Over the years he started stonewalling instead of communicating with me.
2) Your anxiety about having biological children:
I work in healthcare and I have seen single women have babies using the sperm bank. Please take hid that your relationship will get worse as soon as you fall pregnant. This is an eternal trap and you will be stuck with him for a long time, while the abuse will intensify. Mine got worse after we got married and bought a house and the drama around the first pregnancy and my labour was such that I had emergency C-section due to the stress he put me through. He was abusive while I was in labour and I think he split me black , he spent my 48 hour labour telling my mum how bad I was to him instead of being supportive. My mum too was a bully during my labour. 9 years on I’m still not able to wrap my head around it.
Caution: be careful with your contraception and I will advise you not to share details of how you are maintaining your contraception. Mine used sensitive information about my vulnerability to ensure I fell pregnant with the second child even though I made it clear I was not ready for a second child as we were not coping with the first child.

3) less than 2 years ago I was in a similar situation with indecision about filing for divorce, he had already split me black and the relationship was unbearable. He was becoming financially irresponsible and putting the family in a constant state of survival mode while blaming me for trying to have a career. I was stuck because we have 2 children and I am on an intense course and could not imagine surviving on my own. I experienced DV after I challenged his constant victim hood and refused to continue taking the blame for all our problems. At that point I had to file for divorce as there was no moving past the DV.
The question you will have to ask yourself is: are you prepared to live in this state of anxiety and possible depression for the long term as opposed to going through the temporary hurdles of filing for divorce and gaining your peace and self back .
May I just add that pw bpd will do anything to prevent abandonment eg him stepping up his game at home , but it won’t last. Soon as you get comfortable with him being useful around the house he will revert to old ways. Mine always cleaned the house and towards the end of our marriage he apologised for all the wrong things he had done, once the look on my face softened towards him,it didn’t take long for the rage to return. Positive changes are short lived.
For me, I had reached a point where I could not share anything with him anymore and I was literally a single mother while still married to him, except I was dragging his dead weight along.
I left and waiting for financial settlement to finalise my divorce. I’m more at peace and these days I am able to process life with more clarity.
Please take care and at the end of the day you alone know what is right for you.

[livethequestions]

Hi Stuck2023,

I feel for you and very much relate to your situation. This feeling of "having become a carer, not a spouse," is so heavy and burdensome.

I am currently in marriage counseling with my spouse. It is an unusual situation, because about a month into it, we agreed to separate romantically, and to head toward divorce—but we're still in counseling together, months later, because we have to keep living together for a while, and honestly I need those sessions to be able to speak to my spouse safely.

I think it never hurts to give marriage/couple counseling a try, even if it's a session or two—it's bound to teach you something, even if all you learn is "my husband can't do marriage counseling." My spouse also felt that I was dragging them to marriage counseling at first, but they warmed up to it and now seem to look forward to it.

Sounds like you are doing the very best that you can, with a lot on your plate. Are you in therapy yourself, or have you considered it? If you're not, I realize that may not sound manageable with everything you are already juggling, but I will say for me it was what I needed to gain clarity on my marriage.

Wishing you luck! Keep us all posted if you'd like to.

[Stuck2023]

Been a while since I've had the space to come back to the forum. Its been much needed. You are all awesome people.

@Tangled mangled
Caution: be careful with your contraception and I will advise you not to share details of how you are maintaining your contraception.

Thank you for the concern and advice. I'm super organized and aware of my medication as I take other things daily too. We also aren't really intimate any more - certainly not since I raised marriage counselling. I want a family dearly, but not enough to condemn myself for it, or any child to be raised in an unhappy house. Husband is very much a emotional manipulator but thankfully not a forceful or violent person.

I left and waiting for financial settlement to finalise my divorce. I’m more at peace and these days I am able to process life with more clarity.

That is amazing to hear, good luck and I hope it finalizes soon for you!

@livethequestions
I am currently in marriage counseling with my spouse. It is an unusual situation, because about a month into it, we agreed to separate romantically, and to head toward divorce—but we're still in counseling together, months later, because we have to keep living together for a while, and honestly I need those sessions to be able to speak to my spouse safely.

Are you comfortable to share how you've found marriage counselling? A rough outline of how it went? My husband is of the opinion "he'll go if I think we need to" and not really sold on the idea himself at the moment. Our first session is later this week. I really connect with your saying you need the sessions to speak to your spouse safely. I don't feel unsafe physically with my husband but I have zero faith anything we speak about on our own will go calmly or lead to a adult balanced outcome.

Sounds like you are doing the very best that you can, with a lot on your plate. Are you in therapy yourself, or have you considered it? If you're not, I realize that may not sound manageable with everything you are already juggling, but I will say for me it was what I needed to gain clarity on my marriage.

I actually spoke to a therapist solo before raising marriage counselling to help figure out what I wanted to do. I never came up with a definitive, but it did highlight how unhappy I was, and that we both need to engage if we have any chance to salvage it - if its possible. I'll have to put mine on hold so we can afford the marriage counselling but I've got a reasonable support network so I should be able to get by for a while at least. I'm aware of a couple of free services I could seek out if I needed too.

[Stuck2023]

Had an... eye opening?... experience this weekend.

After a bit of a breakdown and crying session at home, I went to a local music festival on my own. I bumped into some people I only know as acquaintances but was basically adopted into their group for a couple of hours and had an amazing time.

Husband turned up a while later to meet me and see some of the festival too. My mood immediately dropped but I was like it's cool, we can just bop to some music and have too much festival food. Except he didn't really like it. My mood was already shot. So we left. I didn't even say goodbye to the other group as I didn't want to risk them noticing my mood shift and asking questions.

I'm sure its not how a marriage is supposed to be when I'm more relaxed and having more fun with near strangers than my husband.

[jaded7]

It takes strength to not be emotionally injured in these relationships. There are skills to create a more validating environment, and skills to improve our boundaries, however these skills are not intuitive and must be learned.

A lot of pwBPD fail to find themselves lovable, therefore receiving love cannot happen despite the chronic need and desire for it. Because they cannot trust your love, you become the bad guy. Any minute you could abandon them, and probably will, and they are constantly scanning the environment for proof.

On our side, we often take their behaviors at face value (believing what they say about us). For many of us, the put-downs are familiar from childhood and there is a twisted safety in finding more proof that we do not deserve better.

Believing that you deserve to be treated with respect is critical. Enacting this belief is likely to change the status quo and trigger escalations because if you feel better you might leave (to someone who believes this is true anyway, it becomes even more true, and fear intensifies).

Your diet is your business. It is your body, your relationship, your journey.

What do you say when he makes comments about snacking? 

Very insightful post, thank you for this.

Scanning the environment for proof that you might leave them or reject them, or aren't good enough. I even said that to my ex "you seem to be looking for things to be angry at, you have stories about me that aren't true, then you get mad at the stories". I found it so confusing coming from someone that said they loved me.

And then the believing what they call us or say about us. For me this was really tricky. I would think to myself, she says she loves me and she also gets really mad at me for things I don't think I did, or intentions I didn't have, or little small things about my life that I didn't think were bad or even slightly faulty. But she loves me, right? That's why she cares so much. And has my best interests at heart, so therefore I must be blind to these things. No one in my life has ever said these things, but maybe they didn't see them? Everybody knows I'm a kind person and thoughtful, but she sees the opposite...maybe she knows me better?

Regarding the food, mine did the very same things. Constantly criticizing what I ate, mocking it, telling me I'm not prioritizing our relationship if I ate certain things. I was not eating bad food! I was eating a very normal diet, even edging toward healthy. But she was hyper fixated on food. I'm in exceptional physical shape, and very knowledgeable about movement and health etc, but she told me I was unhealthy and a fraud in my fitness business because I didn't eat the foods she thought I should.

It's all about control, and it's hard to not take in what they say about us.

I should have told her that she has no right to mock my food and cooking (and many, many other things).

[Azrael]

Hi there, so I'm new here and I guess this is my introduction post.

My husband shows what I think are traits of BPD although nothing is diagnosed. We were together a couple of years before we got married, a year further before we bought a house, and it's been another 4 years since then. We have no kids. Looking back I see maybe some traits showing from the early days, but its really only the last 3 or so years that it really got noticable. I think as responsibilities started adding up the more we took on (e.g. the house, pets) the stress got too much. He basically had a breakdown. We went from me taking slightly more of the household responsibilities (I'd lived independently for years before we met while he had not; he was learning slowly) to suddenly it was all on me. And not only finances, scheduling, life admin, but chores, and keeping him calm enough to function, and getting him into therapy... I feel like I stopped being a wife and started being a carer. My workload was huge, then I'd come home to more.

3 years on with a load of barely useful generic therapy, he's more stable and I'm trying to recover from burnout. Now I start seeing the issues more. I still feel like a carer not a wife. I realised how much of my home time is spent swallowing down my feelings because if I even hint he might be wrong about something or at fault even accidently it can trigger an argument and tears, and then he will lock himself away for the rest of the day - literally leaving me to deal with everything on my own. Keep my mouth shut and have some help (not full help, but some) or start something and have none. I started having a social life again and realised how little encouragement I get at home too. Our last argument where he said "how upsetting it was to him to see me snacking when I keep saying I need to get my diet in order" - when he's the one bringing home donuts and icecream actively giving them to me (I have no food willpower, I'm well aware and working on it). I compared this to being a few weeks into a fitness class recently. My instructor mentioned I was making progress, offered some tips and a challenge, and I didn't know how to respond to someone actually encouraging me to be better.

I've noticed that if I try and (calmly) enforce some boundaries about my time, or lay out some expectations, the result is either him locking himself away again or he starts subtly doing things to deliberately stress me out to get back at me. Its like living with a teenager but with no hope he'll grow out of it and you can't just tell him the move out.

Finally I told him that I'm unhappy and we need to get some help if this relationship is going to last. Booked a session with marriage counsellor coming up soon. His opinion was "if you want it, you book it" and he can't think of anything wrong in our relationship apparently. The whole event kicked off into a huge upset too - my pictures where taken off the wall, his wedding ring off for days, slept in the spare room for a few days, flat out ignoring me. He's currently in a super productive, doing all the chores around the house to prove a point stage so he can use it later as a "see, I do help and I am useful" statement. I don't know if counselling is going to help my marriage or prove it's not going to work. I'm not even sure which option I'd prefer at this point. I range from so upset I feel sick to my stomach at the thought of not having him there and having to figure out how to handle our joint friends, to craving the freedom and lack of anger and stress I might have, and finally fear of the logistics and emotional nightmare that separating would be.

I don't know what to write more so I guess I'll just sign off here. Thank you for letting me vent.

  Sounds more like he is suffering from depression than BPD. Did something happened in his life , like a trauma or shock before all this happened? In the time he tries to "prove a point to use it later", why dont you use those moments in a loving way, to give him an encouragement about being useful? When he does things, is bc you are pushing him to do them or you criticize him about not doing them? There are 2 sides to every relationship, and you are presenting yours. What would he have to say about the situation? If you are willing to go to a therapist, then be willing to use whatever small opportunities or points you can use to encourage positive interactions. His reaction will be very different, if he does things bc he feels belittled and have to prove a point, as if he does them because he realizes it brings him a benefit regarding positive reactions. You should try to find out what is that is eating him inside that provokes the depression.

[Stuck2023]

Sounds more like he is suffering from depression than BPD. Did something happened in his life , like a trauma or shock before all this happened? In the time he tries to "prove a point to use it later", why dont you use those moments in a loving way, to give him an encouragement about being useful? When he does things, is bc you are pushing him to do them or you criticize him about not doing them? There are 2 sides to every relationship, and you are presenting yours. What would he have to say about the situation? If you are willing to go to a therapist, then be willing to use whatever small opportunities or points you can use to encourage positive interactions. His reaction will be very different, if he does things bc he feels belittled and have to prove a point, as if he does them because he realizes it brings him a benefit regarding positive reactions. You should try to find out what is that is eating him inside that provokes the depression.

First I'm going to say up front this is probably going to come across quite defensive in my reply. I take whatever time I can find alone to check these boards, and right now I'm tired and on edge for other reasons but I'm re-reading my preview and I'm pretty sure it's coming through  but I can't think of better wording right now. So apologies for that.

...

There could well be a good chunk of depression in there. I'm not aware of a major shock or trauma, although a slow build of responsibility and stress was there. Its hard to explain without a full play-by-play of the last few years, but it seems more volatile than just depressed. Everything is more intense; his emotions are all intense for example, often beyond what I would expect for a situation. I guess its entirely possible he has depression, anxiety, and massive self esteem issues rather than BPD, he's not diagnosed which I was open about. It reads to me closer to BPD though and he's moved well past the standard CBT and counselling for depression and into deeper therapy levels though with limited success.

I do try to thank and praise him when he does things. And for example in the post-upset phase I wasn't nagging him to do major DIY or anything; he's doing it himself unprompted. He will say he feels good, achieving stuff, but it doesn't last. Yeah sometimes I push him to do things, I'm working full time and he's not so I expect some chores or errands to be done that he has time for that I just don't. I'm absolutely guilty of not always giving praise for some gardening or other job done above and beyond when my head is caught up in other stuff. I'm not a saint. I'm also not a therapist but I've been fighting with the healthcare system for years on his behalf to try and get someone or somewhere that he can try and find the root of the issues. I'm just human and burnt out.

[kells76]

Hey Stuck2023, good to hear your updates -- I'm glad you decided to get out of the house for yourself for bit, and that you felt so welcomed and accepted at the music festival. Even though the person in my life with BPD isn't a partner (it's my H's kids' mom), the stress/anxiety impact on me is huge. I got to take a trip out of state to see an old friend a few months ago, and even though we basically never talked about anything deep (she's not that kind of person), it was still an amazing break to get away from the drama and conflict and not talk about it and focus on "normal things".

Any more chances coming up for you to get a break, even for an hour or two, from the stress?

I think you mentioned a few posts back that you had a MC session coming up -- has that happened yet, and if so, how did it go?

[livednlearned]

Stuck2023, you belong here.

Most of us here don't have partners or family members diagnosed with BPD. Many of us try to make sense of behaviors that make these relationships not just difficult but the most difficult, and that road often leads to BPD or something in that neighborhood, alone or with another diagnosis.

BPD is an adaptation that worked in childhood and no longer serves its purpose. It may happen with or without what many consider trauma in the classic sense. BPD traits might overlap with other disorders but that doesn't make things any less intense for us as caregivers.

You probably know on some intuitive level that his reactions are beyond what's manageable, and your caregiving symptoms suggest he is nowhere near to getting the right intervention, diagnosis, treatment.

There are examples of many people who suffer from major depressive disorder and BPD. It's possible your H has more than one thing going on, and maybe even more than two. Whatever it is, your caregiving challenges sound familiar and they are not insignificant.

With my ex, I look back and realize he was bound and determined to make sure every waking moment was spent focused on him. This wasn't fair to my son, and it wasn't fair to me. I'm glad you went out with friends and took care of yourself. The more you do things to make sure you're ok, the better. We can't take care of other people, no matter how much they are falling apart, if our cup isn't at least half full or better.

[Stuck2023]

Hey Stuck2023, good to hear your updates -- I'm glad you decided to get out of the house for yourself for bit, and that you felt so welcomed and accepted at the music festival. Even though the person in my life with BPD isn't a partner (it's my H's kids' mom), the stress/anxiety impact on me is huge. I got to take a trip out of state to see an old friend a few months ago, and even though we basically never talked about anything deep (she's not that kind of person), it was still an amazing break to get away from the drama and conflict and not talk about it and focus on "normal things".

Any more chances coming up for you to get a break, even for an hour or two, from the stress?

I think you mentioned a few posts back that you had a MC session coming up -- has that happened yet, and if so, how did it go?

Since I finally got my workload (like job etc) under control I've started building in some me-time regularly! I have a fitness class I go to once a week at least, and a game night we both go to but he's not in the same game so its another couple of hours separate. Its actually what's really highlighted for me how bad its been, not wanting to go home afterwards. I'm glad you got away for a while and had a break too. A few days break sounds like bliss 

You're right, we had our first MC session last week. Overall it was tense and draining, but not too bad - mostly because it was 90% paperwork, but we eventually got a bit into "why are you here". That part was... less fun. I think he expected me to come out swinging at him, blaming him, I guess like a TV show version of couples counselling - so he decided to swing first with a few snide and mean comments. Honestly I just kept quiet and took it, it was like 10minutes left of the session and I didn't want to kick off right as we left. I'm pretty sure the counsellor noticed. He has a habit of retelling things accurately in terms of literally what happened, but spinning it with intentions and tone that weren't there. Walking over to continue a discussion because he's yelling at the top of his voice from the next room, becoming "she chased me into the room" for example. I'm trying to prepare for that a bit more for next session. It hurts to hear. I'm pretty sure its just lashing out; but I don't want to be with someone who thinks I would do that to them, and if he doesn't believe it then why should I stay with someone willing to lie and say that about me?

Stuck2023, you belong here.

Thank you. That means so much to hear.

[Stuck2023]

MC session 2 happened. I've just felt really drained and tired and checked out since.

It went well I think? The counsellor noted some of his reactions and questioned me about how I respond to things. They seem to be pretty observant so far. Our homework is to practice putting conversations on pause if we're getting worked up (we can do this but not consistently), with plans to do practice other ways of communicating later to better get each other's view across. I should really consider it a good session I think, but I actually feel worse and I can't really define why.

He was remarkably (not overly, but more than I would expect) cheery afterwards despite everything and its put me right on edge; everything I know of him he should have been wanting to either lash out or cry after the topics discussed and he wasn't. My head says he's either holding it in to prove a point or set a specific image... or he thinks he's "winning" somehow which I think worries me more.

Today we had a conversation about something that had bugged me in session. It didn't get resolved but it didn't explode, or at least nearly didn't. I reacted sharply to something and the reply triggered him but we did manage to bail before the explosion but it was down to the wire. And I've learned we have some different opinions on whether managing the household bills and budget (yes like a physical document) counts as household chores/responsibilities. My head is just swirling and nothing feels like its making sense right now. I feel like I should be happy we're engaging in counselling but I am just feeling sick and scared.

[livethequestions]

Dear Stuck2023,

I’ve been gone for a bit, so I’ll try to catch up!

Marriage counseling has been a godsend for me, but I lucked out in that we ended up with a particularly bright and well-attuned therapist. I will say the first few sessions were really tough, and after the fourth session my spouse completely lost it and went into a borderline rage fit for multiple days (left the therapist a nasty voicemail, and left me multiple voicemails that were just them screaming and yelling—I had left the house for my own safety). That being said, that episode is what finally made me realize I did not want a future with my spouse, and the therapist also really switched gears after that. They likely understood they were dealing with a personality-disordered client, and applied a lot of the same strategies we’re all learning to apply here as loved ones (like no JADEing, SET, etc.). We have been at it for 6 months now, and it’s in that therapy space that I was able to tell my spouse I want to separate without it leading to blackout rage (yet?).

I hope for your sake this process of going to marriage counseling with your husband doesn’t lead to more rage/despondency/abuse. Every marriage counseling journey is different, so who knows what yours will lead to. I am so glad your counselor seems observant and gave you something to work on right away. My wish for you is that, if anything, this process can give you some clarity as to whether you want to stay in this marriage or not.

I can completely relate to feeling emotionally drained and checked out after therapy. Therapy is already such hard work in general, because you’re confronting painful and often buried feelings—but then doing it with someone who is as volatile, unpredictable, and prone to rage as a pwBPD is? That is massive, superhuman work. Give yourself kudos for that. My spouse has also sometimes been strangely “chipper” after therapy, which has only made me more scared. Sometimes, I think it’s truly how they feel—after all, therapy might be providing things his BPD craves (like attention and validation). Other times, I worry the reason might be more sinister.

And keep in mind, it’s okay if marriage counseling just doesn’t work out. Especially with untreated BPD, there is really only so much a collaborative process like marriage counseling can do, unfortunately. After some time, it may be that that money will be better spent on individual therapy for yourself. Again, who knows.

I’m also glad you have a good support system around you, and you’ve gotten some opportunities to spend time away from your husband (either for me-time, or to socialize with others). I am always surprised by how different I feel when I am not with my spouse—just so much lighter, and more present. It is painful, even a little heartbreaking, to go back to my spouse after that.

Lastly, I want to reiterate what livednlearned wrote: you belong here. You know your husband better than any of us here ever will (probably better than most people in your/his life), and it’s okay to trust yourself. There is a reason that descriptions of BPD behaviors/patterns sound familiar to you, and that you ended up here. It’s hard, when you live with a gaslighter, not to second guess your intuition. And yes, it’s very possible your husband also has depression. Really high rates of comorbidity between BPD and things like depression, anxiety, PTSD. Personally, I have yet to meet someone who has BPD but not depression.

You are in the right place. You can trust yourself.

[ForeverDad]

And keep in mind, it’s okay if marriage counseling just doesn’t work out. Especially with untreated BPD, there is really only so much a collaborative process like marriage counseling can do, unfortunately.  After some time, it may be that that money will be better spent on individual therapy for yourself. Again, who knows.

Much has been discussed about couples or marriage counseling.  If the disordered spouse is unwilling to do meaningful personal therapy - and diligently apply it - then often the attempts at marriage counseling also fail.

I recall my lawyer telling me, "Court loves counseling!"  All the professionals do.  Even if your spouse declines meaningful therapy or counseling together with your spouse fails, individual therapy is still very beneficial for you.

[Stuck2023]

@livethequestions

Marriage counseling has been a godsend for me ... We have been at it for 6 months now, and it’s in that therapy space that I was able to tell my spouse I want to separate without it leading to blackout rage (yet?).

Its good to hear it's helping. I'm still very conflicted on what I want right now. We're nearing a month since I raised the topic of being unhappy and since then he's been remarkably productive and functional. A few emotional outbursts but nothing like the usual amount. Although we're also in a calm point in life too right now with few stresses (although expecting those to start returning in September). If it could stay at this point and with work go upwards, I'd be happy. But I'm very worried it won't stay at this level.

... My spouse has also sometimes been strangely “chipper” after therapy, which has only made me more scared. Sometimes, I think it’s truly how they feel—after all, therapy might be providing things his BPD craves (like attention and validation). Other times, I worry the reason might be more sinister.

I hadn't thought about it giving him attention and validation therefore might actually raise his mood! That makes more sense as I was wracking my brain trying to figure out what else could be going on. Thank you, I can breath a bit easier now with at least some kind of possibility!

... I am always surprised by how different I feel when I am not with my spouse—just so much lighter, and more present. It is painful, even a little heartbreaking, to go back to my spouse after that.

This is the whole reason I realized something was wrong honestly. I shouldn't dread going home wondering what mood he's in, or wondering if my nice evening out with him was actually going to get me an earful when we get in the car because someone said something or I did something and didn't realize. I'm both glad to hear someone put words to it, and sad that you experience it too.

@ForeverDad

Much has been discussed about couples or marriage counseling.  If the disordered spouse is unwilling to do meaningful personal therapy - and diligently apply it - then often the attempts at marriage counseling also fail.

I recall my lawyer telling me, "Court loves counseling!"  All the professionals do.  Even if your spouse declines meaningful therapy or counseling together with your spouse fails, individual therapy is still very beneficial for you.

I am keeping my fingers crossed, mostly on the "diligently apply it" part. He's been notorious in individual therapy for taking on the theory really well, but not doing the daily practical practice as it were. Trying it once and it didn't work miracles, or feeling good so didn't feel the need to do it. I'm at least involved to keep it in mind this time I suppose! I'm still keeping up with my individual therapy too although not as often to save some money.

[Azrael]

@livethequestionsIts good to hear it's helping. I'm still very conflicted on what I want right now. We're nearing a month since I raised the topic of being unhappy and since then he's been remarkably productive and functional. A few emotional outbursts but nothing like the usual amount. Although we're also in a calm point in life too right now with few stresses (although expecting those to start returning in September). If it could stay at this point and with work go upwards, I'd be happy. But I'm very worried it won't stay at this level.
I hadn't thought about it giving him attention and validation therefore might actually raise his mood! That makes more sense as I was wracking my brain trying to figure out what else could be going on. Thank you, I can breath a bit easier now with at least some kind of possibility!
This is the whole reason I realized something was wrong honestly. I shouldn't dread going home wondering what mood he's in, or wondering if my nice evening out with him was actually going to get me an earful when we get in the car because someone said something or I did something and didn't realize. I'm both glad to hear someone put words to it, and sad that you experience it too.

@ForeverDadI am keeping my fingers crossed, mostly on the "diligently apply it" part. He's been notorious in individual therapy for taking on the theory really well, but not doing the daily practical practice as it were. Trying it once and it didn't work miracles, or feeling good so didn't feel the need to do it. I'm at least involved to keep it in mind this time I suppose! I'm still keeping up with my individual therapy too although not as often to save some money.

 You said that you are going to your own therapy by yourself. What conclusions your therapists have reached regarding diagnosis? Have you been evaluated yourself for BPD or similar? Some of the things you mentioned (like negativity regarding the future bc you see  him getting happy and motivated), sound like BPD behavioral patterns. In men, normally, when we get to find a possible answer to a problem that is seriously affecting us, we get happy, motivated, we go on an hit the gym, do the chores we were not doing, bc we have HOPE, and see things changing positively. That is a NORMAL behavior in men.

  But when you say you feel "fear" of he doing better, and fear that is going to turn worst, when this is actually what therapy is for, then you are displaying symptoms of BPD. Fear, negative thinking about the future, not being happy no matter what is done to fix things, projections of failure instead of seeing the actual actions happening, etc. All those ARE BPD mentality symptoms. So, it is completely possible for 2 people to have BPD and be together. But all you described about his attitude changing positive when hope and a way is given is normal.

 Are you open to the possibility that you might also have BPD or related? And to want to do something about it?

[ForeverDad]

We're all remote and only have limited contact here, so our observations and conclusions are of course limited.  But here are a couple observations I've made over the years.

Now and then there have been persons who arrived here but were probably Borderline.  As we always say, we only see the behaviors, as for what lies beneath the surface, who knows?  Anyway, it was fairly obvious within a few posts that these persons had real issues with their perceptions and perspectives.  Even their posts were often a bit disjointed.  They were easily triggered too so it didn't take long to suggest they instead follow links to sites designed for people with BPD (pwBPD), whereas this site is for those in relationships with or exposed to pwBPD... spouses, children, parents, bosses, etc.

Also, those pwBPD didn't have much introspection, self-examination.  So often when a person arrives here and asks, "Does it sound like I am the one with BPD?" we sense the person is probably reasonably normal, just in a bad situation.  In such cases the phrase "situational relationship issues" applies more to them rather than "one's own internal issues".

That said, Stuck2023 has all the signs of someone stuck in a troubling situation.  That isn't to say she is perfect, maybe better to say comparatively or perfectly normal.  None of us are 100% perfect, we're not identical robots off an assembly line.  We all have variations of traits and issues, just usually relatively minor (relatively normal) ones.  Add to that the fact that we were clueless, uninformed and unprepared for dealing with an acting-out pwBPD, so therefore sites like this one along with in-person counseling are life savers.

[Stuck2023]

You said that you are going to your own therapy by yourself. What conclusions your therapists have reached regarding diagnosis? Have you been evaluated yourself for BPD or similar? Some of the things you mentioned (like negativity regarding the future bc you see  him getting happy and motivated), sound like BPD behavioral patterns. In men, normally, when we get to find a possible answer to a problem that is seriously affecting us, we get happy, motivated, we go on an hit the gym, do the chores we were not doing, bc we have HOPE, and see things changing positively. That is a NORMAL behavior in men.

  But when you say you feel "fear" of he doing better, and fear that is going to turn worst, when this is actually what therapy is for, then you are displaying symptoms of BPD. Fear, negative thinking about the future, not being happy no matter what is done to fix things, projections of failure instead of seeing the actual actions happening, etc. All those ARE BPD mentality symptoms. So, it is completely possible for 2 people to have BPD and be together. But all you described about his attitude changing positive when hope and a way is given is normal.

 Are you open to the possibility that you might also have BPD or related? And to want to do something about it?

My personal therapy hasn't been aimed towards any diagnosis at least this instance. It's been around giving me an independent place to discuss my marriage issues without risking creating bias with our shared friends and family. That's not to say I haven't got my own issues for sure. I've got diagnosed anxiety which is clinically under control though rears its head in times of stress, and its been noted on more than one occasion that my non-anxiety related emotions are generally somewhat over-controlled (which is I believe specifically not a BPD trait).
I really wish I could see that happiness mood swing as a reaction to hope and way forward, but given that just a minute earlier inside the counselling session he had been very down and defensive, I can't see a "normal" reason for the shift.

That said, Stuck2023 has all the signs of someone stuck in a troubling situation.  That isn't to say she is perfect, maybe better to say comparatively or perfectly normal.  None of us are 100% perfect, we're not identical robots off an assembly line.  We all have variations of traits and issues, just usually relatively minor (relatively normal) ones.  Add to that the fact that we were clueless, uninformed and unprepared for dealing with an acting-out pwBPD, so therefore sites like this one along with in-person counseling are life savers.

Thank you. Indeed this site has been amazingly helpful so far. The tools section, reading other people's stories, seeing advice and tips. I'm also becoming very aware how lucky I am in that my story is essentially 'just' mental and emotional burnout, and not the levels of abuse and violence others have endured in some cases. Although, it kind of makes the situation sadder in a way too if my marriage ends up coming down purely to whether I have the energy to keep up the level of support he appears to need. He's not a bad person, I know that for certain. I also know I can't be everything he needs, on my own, indefinitely; which is where it currently stands.

[Stuck2023]

Another MC session down. Stuff is coming out, I feel like the counsellor is seeing some of the interactions well and picking up on things. There have been no major breakdowns post-sessions. Yet I'm feeling more upset and down after every session. I'm getting to say a lot about how awful some things feel which I wouldn't have done before, his defensive response is being nicely handled by the counsellor. But there is no... what's the term? Validation? Acknowledgement?... of how I feel, from him. Afterwards he still says he doesn't think we need MC and its making things worse for no reason.

I just typed out a whole paragraph of venting, then stopped on this sentence: "Ignorance of their own actions isn't a reason to stay with someone". I need to think on that more when I'm less tired.

[livednlearned]

I wouldn't rule out autism.

I've been in a rabbit hole about autism and BPD after learning more about this as a comorbidity, although it's also possible that there is autism plus other kinds of post-trauma presentations.

My son's psychiatrist implied he though n/BPDx (son's father) was on the spectrum. It made no sense to me because n/BPDx has so many characteristics of someone with BPD (with me) with a strong streak of narcissism (with others). He also masked what I now realize was extreme anxiety with alcohol and prescription medications. I know we're not supposed to diagnose but my god when you live with someone so destructive and abusive it feels almost impossible to try and make sense, if only to find others experiencing the same insanity.

To be clear, I'm not saying autism is destructive. My son is also on the spectrum and he couldn't be further from what his father is like. S22 doesn't have a PD and he doesn't abuse alcohol or drugs. He's lovely and sweet and very tender-hearted and kind.

Someone on the spectrum is wired different and even ASD alone without comorbidities can be challenging for partners, sometimes referred to as Cassandra phenomenon.

The Cassandra phenomenon depicts a state of confusion, self-doubt, and inner turmoil that is all too familiar among neurotypical people who, when describing their experiences with an adult on the spectrum, are doubted, discounted, ignored, even rejected by friends, family members, and sometimes professionals who disbelieve their account.

It's hard to tell much from reading a handful of posts to know what applies but if there's something that resonates maybe it'll spare you years of feeling like things just don't ever add up, wondering if there's something wrong with you since people seem to not understand what you're describing.

[Stuck2023]

I wouldn't rule out autism.
I've been in a rabbit hole about autism and BPD after learning more about this as a comorbidity, although it's also possible that there is autism plus other kinds of post-trauma presentations.

I actually have thought about this before strangely; a complete stranger was asking how I was after witnessing a meltdown of uBPDh and mentioned he reminded her of her Asperger's (which isn't considered a separate thing to autism anymore I believe) son. Your message prompted me to look at the overlap with BPD though and wow that's a surprising level of overlap! The one bit that made me laugh in a slightly despairing way was that I realized I would say he has something close to autism Special Interests and can talk none stop for hours on a subject he likes but then gets BPD like dysregulated if I don't show enough interest in the subject too as it hits the "you're rejecting me" buttons.

As you say, no diagnosing here. But it absolutely does help in finding words to try and describe what I'm seeing/experiencing.

[ForeverDad]

One lesson I discovered when I went to family court was that no effort is made to determine WHY there is discord or conflict.  Sure, most cases have mediation attempts ordered early in a divorce, but otherwise it seemed to me everyone studiously avoided any attempt to diagnose or "fix" anyone.  Court and the professionals around the court dealt with the parties as they are.  That was a surprise for me and a realization worth accepting if you do ever decide the marriage has no future.

In some ways that sucks but better to be aware now than be disappointed later.