Al anon resistance

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I don't want to go. I went to one meeting and now I don't want to go back. I've been trying to work out why.

The alcoholic is the father of my children. I'm emotionally detached from him. My children are just starting to wonder why he drinks and why he is with a partner who drinks so much. I though al anon would help me and I still think it would.

BUT I am utterly sick of codependency. I don't want to sit in a room with people still living with alcoholics albeit doing the steps and detaching/ detached. I don't want to hear about it. I've had enough of it.

I have to deal with it here and now every minute my children are falling apart. I think al anon will hepl them when they are older and if I'm honest I'm doing it for them more than me, so I can help them.

I think I am working the steps anyway. I think that's what working on ourselves is all about.

I just want to treasure my alone time right now. I'm really feeling poorly with CFS and I'm just keeping my head above water to look after my kids and function day to day. I'm off work but can't stay off more than another couple of months.

I don't want to give any more time to alcoholism or codependency. I feel resentful that I have to go, that it is good for me.

I don't know why I'm feeling like this. The meeting is tonight and I just want to stay home and do nice stuff for me?

[maria1]

I don't want to go. I went to one meeting and now I don't want to go back. I've been trying to work out why.

The alcoholic is the father of my children. I'm emotionally detached from him. My children are just starting to wonder why he drinks and why he is with a partner who drinks so much. I though al anon would help me and I still think it would.

BUT I am utterly sick of codependency. I don't want to sit in a room with people still living with alcoholics albeit doing the steps and detaching/ detached. I don't want to hear about it. I've had enough of it.

I have to deal with it here and now every minute my children are falling apart. I think al anon will hepl them when they are older and if I'm honest I'm doing it for them more than me, so I can help them.

I think I am working the steps anyway. I think that's what working on ourselves is all about.

I just want to treasure my alone time right now. I'm really feeling poorly with CFS and I'm just keeping my head above water to look after my kids and function day to day. I'm off work but can't stay off more than another couple of months.

I don't want to give any more time to alcoholism or codependency. I feel resentful that I have to go, that it is good for me.

I don't know why I'm feeling like this. The meeting is tonight and I just want to stay home and do nice stuff for me?

[Cumulus]

Hi Maria, There are a couple things I think I'd be asking myself, - what do I hope to get out of this for my kids and is there any other way for me to get that information. - do I feel like I'm once again in a position where I have the need to emotionally support other people or am I able to take something as well as give something. - Physically, is this going to create too much stress on my body considering the fatigue I am presently experiencing. - Is this something that absolutely needs to be done now or can I reconsider going in x months time.

I'm thinking you've probably all ready thought of these things but hope it helps knowing someone else has as well.

[Maryiscontrary]

Maria, maybe you have outgrown this type of support group structure. You are much more polite that I am in the way things are expressed, but maybe you are eliminating exposure to all toxicity?

I am at a point I cannot be around crap. Maybe you have something akin to this sentimentality?

What do you think?

[maria1]

Hi Cumulus and Mary

Thanks for your replies. I think I just can't be bothered right now and maybe because I've just had enough of it. I mean I find the staying board had. No offense to stayers but I just don't get it, unless there are kids involved and then I do; I understand that choice.

I was in a codependent relationship with that man for years. I spent so long waiting for him to change. He didn't but he kept promising to. I stopped waiting and I got out. Then I got into a relationship with a man who said he was one thing but quickly showed himself to be another, a gaming addict who was lazy on top. As soon as I saw his true colours I shipped straight out of that one too.

I don't think I'm as codependent as I could be. I don't mean I don't have issues, I think I have other issues as well as those of codependency but I get so sick of people not getting that people don't change unless they want to.

I'm not going tonight. I think the time isn't quite right. I would be going out of obligation because the people were all so nice. I think it could do me good but I don't have the energy right now.

Mary I'm not as polite as you think I am. I love the way you don't hold back; you're an inspiration

[Whatwasthat]

Not going sounds like a very good decision to me.

From what I can work out one of the key tools to use to recover from CFS is to make sure you get in touch with  your needs as thoroughly and completely as possible and meet as many of them as you can.

I don't think you even have to work out what the reason is for doing/not doing something - if you have a strong feeling about it - follow that feeling.

WWT.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Maria, Whether or not you go is your choice, and that's a good thing.   

A suggestion that was given to me, and one that I pass along at times is try attending at least 6 meetings before you decide if it's for you or not for you.  There are several reasons for this, one being our own denial.  I'm not saying you are in denial, but I know that ends up being the case for a lot of folks.  Also, when I attend, it helps to keep an open mind, and look for ways that I can identify with others, rather than ways I can't.  12-step groups are not for everyone, but I have gained a tremendous amount of help from them.

Have a great evening! 

[maria1]

Thank you Phoenix and Whatwasthat

I think I would like to go and give it more of a chance. But I also think I don't want to spend any more time than I absolutely have to thinking about codependency right now.

My kids are approaching an epiphany about their father's drinking and I think a slow crisis is building quite quickly. I barely have the strength to deal with day to day stuff. I need to pace my mental and physical energy and somehow an evening a week seems too much.

Of course that all could be denial but I did find the first meeting really useful and positive so I don't think I'm denying that it could help. It's a half hour drive there and it's so cold.

I need to focus on getting myself in a state to work again. Somehow al anon right now just feels like too much. One of the horrible things about CFS is I'm having to say things like a two hour meeting once a week is too much. That is laughable to me. I still can't get my head around this illness.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Maria, I'm sorry you're having a rough go with it.  Take it easy.  Allow yourself time for you.  You are worth it, and then some!   

[maria1]

Thanks Phoenix! I am really allowing myself time right now- I seem to have no choice. Can't help thinking my body has just taken over. Scary how my energy has gone. It is a huge part of my personality, my vitality. To lose it is very strange.

I'm glad to see you staying strong despite feeling sad right now. We are all getting through this. I thought of my exBPD suddenly yesterday and today, having not done so for a while. The sadness is still there a little but it really does diminish, even when it surges it is less over time. 

[Somewhere]

Yeah, I thought I was too good for a long while too.

I mean, afterall they are fu-ed or they would not be there, right?

Not like you and me, I mean.

You will figure it out.   

[maria1]

No somewhere that isn't it and I don't think you're listening to what I've said to be fair. If anything I think they are better than me for having the energy to go and face it. I am sick and tired if my own codependency and sick of other stories because I need a break from everything.

[AnotherPhoenix]

Hi Maria1,

Mental work is so much harder than people realize! That's why a lot of people don't change even when they try. Just changing 1 habit is difficult.

   

I think a lot of us take breaks from this from time to time.

How could you take a break?

AnotherPheonix   

[maria1]

Thanks AP

I'm learning not to just do things because I think I should and not to do things then and there which has always been my MO. I'm signed off sick which is a major thing for me. I could easily push myself into doing things with the extra time that affords me. even being too ill to work would normally mean i achieve something Somewhere else in my life (ridiculously). I'm not doing that right now but its still hard for me. It's hard because my body won't let me do much at all.

I can hear my dads voice waking me up in the mornings- he never let me lie in, never let me enjoy just being. He always thought he knew what was best for me. It's like he was disappointed in me for being me.

Yesterday I made myself walk up to the shops. It's a little walk really and one I enjoy. Today my legs hurt unbelievably! It doesn't sound believable. I'm putting on weight with this and that's getting me down!

Accepting for myself that al anon might not fit in with stuff right now and that it isn't denial is giving myself a break. I like being able to stand up for that decision because I valued what I got from the first session.

Thank you for your support  

[gina louise]

maria1,

I found Al Anon helpful only to a point. I wasn't co-dep enough to try to control my uBPDH behaviors, I only wanted to understand them.

or find coping skills. I didn't find that in Al anon.

His level of rage was so off the charts that he was miles away from the alcoholic behaviors that were being related. So I felt like nobody could relate. A drunken rage is quite different than a calculated, BPD/NPD fueled rage.

I can see where IF you are no longer interacting with the F of your kids, you may not need Al Anon. And you may bristle at being told that you (still) need to work on your side of the street-when the two streets (yours and Ex's) barely intersect!

I know that would rub me raw.

How old are the kids?

Would Ala Teen help them?

GL

[maria1]

Hi GL

Thanks for your post- it's nice to see you!

I have wondered a little about what you say- I gave up trying to control my ex's drinking a long time ago and I think what is difficult is that I have no desire to delve back into that feeling. I'm so glad to be away from that. It makes me sick to remember his promises. Now I see my kids suddenly in it. They have just returned from their time with him and say 'its fine mum- dad says he isn't going to drink- we asked him not to. We told him we are worried and sort it all out.' What else can I say but great!

I know he has a part of him that wants to stop and believes he can. I don't want to get anywhere near him again but I want to support my kids.

They are still too young for al ateen - 10 and 7, although 10 year old is nearly 11. Part of my thinking with delaying this is that I could go with her next year. There is even a group at the end of my road on a night that I have them, and by that time she may decide she wants to go. It may help her more if we take the journey together.

[blecker]

Hi maria1.

Try to be kind to yourself. There is nothing wrong with taking a break from anything... .   except breathing. LOL

I know it can be tiring to hear the same old stories that often seem like whinning. And often we compare rather than identify and that puts all kinds of strain where we shouldn't be straining.

You have been through hell and there are many roads to heaven. They are all long and full of hazards. It just doen't get fixed evernight.

So be patient with yourself and cut back on your meetings if you feel you need to and then go back when you feel like you need to hear what others, like you, have suffered through and survived.

Oh, and never believe an active alcoholic. If their mouth is moving, they are lying.

[Phoenix.Rising]

I can hear my dads voice waking me up in the mornings- he never let me lie in, never let me enjoy just being. He always thought he knew what was best for me. It's like he was disappointed in me for being me.

It sounds like these are some of the 'voices' you are combating.  This can be difficult.  I've experienced some of these same 'voices' and I work on coming to the realization that I am a human being, not a human doing.  In other words, my worth and value as a person is not dependent on what I can achieve but rather on who I am!  You are a good person, period.  It is definitely ok to take a break.  You probably need one.    

I was thinking about all the people on these boards who have been so kind and helpful to me.  I thought about you and how much I've seen you progress.  I know you are tired from the 'work', but your growth definitely shines through in your posts.  You are an inspiration to me.

[maria1]

Hi Blecker

I don't think people's staying stories sound like whining. It's more that I see my own patterns playing out in some of the stories, not the true stayers. right now there seem to be a lot at the end of their tether and i find that sad.

I suppose I feel like I have a different story to tell for me now. I couldn't have stayed with my pwBPD because I didn't trust him. It was a straight forward deal breaker in the end but I did try to stay friends because he did try hard to work on himself in his own way and I respected that.

Thank you for your kind words. I don't believe a word my non BPD ex says. Sad thing is he believes himself and my children believe him. Al anon is great because its not quite such a lonely place for me with people that understand that. But I just can't do it right now.

[maria1]

Phoenix Rising

Your post means such a lot to me - thank you so much  

Those voices are hard aren't they. But I think I'm starting to argue with them more. My father lost his speech after a stroke before my BPD relationship so before I really started to look properly at all my foo stuff. I think im realising that the critical voice I can hear is his more than anybody's and yet his real voice is gone. That's kind of weird.

I told him about my cfs a couple of days ago. I could imagine him dismissing it, gently and kindly but still dismissing it. I felt I had to tell him because I can't take him out and stuff right now, its too physically demanding. I immediately felt I shouldn't have told him. I don't know what his look meant. He has a very expressive face. I don't think the man I knew in there any more. I never really knew him anyway.

It's time to stop feeling judged by him. It's time to grow up.

[Phoenix.Rising]

It's time to stop feeling judged by him. It's time to grow up.

That's powerful, and true.  My father was very demanding when I was growing up.  His expectations were very high, and I never felt quite like I could reach them.  I think the reality is that I probably could not have ever reached them because they would likely change once I reached a certain point.  This eerily echoes some of the feelings I felt in my relationship with exBPD.  I could never be enough for her.  The bar would always raise, or at least move!

I've since felt that my father was projecting his own sense of inadequacy onto me.  He wanted me to succeed in the ways he felt he failed.  I'm not certain of this, of course, but I've given it some thought over the years.  It's probably not that uncommon for parents to want their children to be and have things they didn't have.  I don't know.  But my dad was also an alcoholic.  I was very angry with him for years, but since he and I both stopped drinking we've managed to build a friendship.  It's not ideal, but it is good enough for me today.  I really see him as more of a friend now than a father figure. 

You are definitely your own person, and you do not owe anything to your father.  The way I see it now, I have to answer to myself and my higher power.  I do not have to give others explanations for why I do things the way I do them.  This can still be difficult, but I am getting better.

I hope you get some relief with the cfs.  That sounds really frustrating.  Have a good night.   

[maria1]

Thank Phoenix- I think my father never had any expectations on me, because I was a girl. For some reason it didn't really matter what I did it was never going to elicit praise from him. I never tried very hard but I always did Ok. He even directed me in plays but never told me I did any good. I always found it strange that he never once praised me. I asked my mother once why he didn't and she said he never did it to her either. It does seem to be a narcissistic trait.

My BPDex did praise me, he did like me and he did value me. It was more like he gave me what my father didn't rather than repeating his pattern of love. Maybe his appeal was that he was more like my disordered brother. But the projection from my father was still his own inadequacy onto everybody. Except other people's children. They were always particularlly wonderful for some reason.

Rather than feeling like I could never be enough for my ex I felt like it was enough and he knew it, but it didn't stop it all disintegrating in the face of intimacy.

I think you are further on in acceptance of yourself in some ways than I maybe through your Al anon work. I don't quite get the higher power stuff but I do trust myself and think I got that in my lonely childhood.

Thanks for talking.

[Phoenix.Rising]

The things you said about your father sound narcissistic to me, too.  My father was quite angry much of the time.  He's calmed down a lot as he has aged and done some recovery work on himself.  I just remember him yelling and having a short fuse.  I hated that.

I'm rethinking a bit what I said about my BPDex.  She did value me, and I believe she felt a lot of repect for me at first.  Sometimes I wonder if she almost thought of me of a saint or something.  Her adoration for me was very apparent early on, and even during some later phases of our relationship. 

But I think what I am getting at with feeling like I could never be enough is when she was painting me black, and my understanding was that she would take something that seemed minor to me, and make me out to be a bad person in her mind because of it, and she would break up with me.  Most of the things she would mention seemed fairly insignificant to me, but in her mind they made me out to be a bad person.  So if I tried to alter a certain behavior for her, and I did, she would still hold onto the old ideas in her head or find something new to demonize me with so she could push away.

I agree with you that it came down to her inability or unwillingness to approach intimacy with me.  But I felt like no matter how hard I tried, it was not enough.  Really, my feeling like I was not enough had a lot to do with my own internal insecurities.  Her painting me black just triggered it.  But when she was seeing me as the good guy, I've never felt better in my life.  I really was on cloud nine.  I've been thinking about how BPD's process and feel emotions, and I believe they feel them very intensely.  So when she was feeling love for me and close to me, the intensity was very high, but as we know, she could switch to not wanting to be in my presence at all within the same day.  This left me reeling over and over again. 

So when she was accepting of me for just being who I am, she was giving me something that I don't think I really got from my parents.  But when she painted me black, so to speak, that was awful.  It keeps coming back to loving me for who I am regardless of what others feel or think about me.  If I look to others to make me whole, I will eventually come up lacking.  I bring up the higher power because, for me, I draw acceptance and self-esteem from that source.  It's ok if you are unsure about that.  I definitely have been at times.  I went through quite a long period where I doubted the existence of any higher power.  In this case, the recovery group can be a higher power because they have something I want.

I appreciate you talking, too.   

[maria1]

Yes, I think I got out before the real devaluation began with my exBPD. I am under no illusions rat it wasn't coming; there were flashes of it here and there throughout. What it seemed like though was that he felt the engulfment coming and so had to push, had to try to devalue, but he never quite managed it. During one of our last conversations at the time we split he was criticising me for something I'd done with an ex boyfriend which involved my children. I said to him why are you doing that- why are you having a go at me about stuff that we both know doesn't really matter? He said 'I have to do it- don't you see? Nobody comes close to you.' You could see the pull/ push engulfment/ abandonment all spiralling around inside him.

What he is left with is an understanding that he pushes away the people that he loves but with no understanding why. He still asks me why, or he did when we were in contact.

So in some ways they are like the narcissist in that we can never be good enough but for different reasons I think. The narcissist will never allow us to be good enough because we don't figure enough to matter and we can't possibly be 'better' than them. For the BPD we can't be good enough because they cannot love us, as much as they desperately want us.

That makes some sense I think. I still believe that there was a part of this that was real and that was that we did get on and we did have a genuine connection. We had a lot in common that wasn't just mirroring. It's easier to think that wasn't real but I think it's ok to acknowledge that it was. And grieve that.

What's harder in some ways is to recognise that my father really didn't like me much, or appreciate any of the things that I appreciate about myself. It's hard to appreciate them about myself because I balk against my narcissistic side and always have done.

But I need to remember to like myself. That was actually a real positive that BPDex gave me. I didn't get too far into any abuse. He really did tell me good stuff and bad stuff about me. He really did know me warts and all and love me, possibly for the first time. He isn't full blown BPD and he is aware of his negative side a lot of the time. He showed me what it is to be loved. It wasn't consistent. I don't mean the initial idolisation I mean further in when we'd had deep dark stuff together and were genuinely sharing intimacy. I don't think my father had anything like that with anybody.

[Phoenix.Rising]

I know there was a part of my relationship with BPDex that was real.  I saw it in her expressions and felt it when we were passionate.  There is no denying that, so I understand what you are saying.  What I didn't understand about the push/pull before I knew about BPD, I understand now as extreme emotional dysregulation.  This is definitely a sickness.  It's seems like an out of control emotional storm, or maybe more like the emotional circuit board is not functioning properly.  I don't want to sound crude, and I hope it doesn't sound that way, but I'm trying to put it in terms that make sense.  When the emotional circuit board was firing and she felt happy and good about us, it came across as extreme happiness and goodness.  But she couldn't maintain that type of intensity, so I think she would shut down for periods of time.  I don't fully understand it, but I believe I understand it much better than before.  It makes me very sad.  Illness aside, I became very attached to her.  I remember laying on her couch for several hours one night just looking at each other and smiling and hugging and kissing.  It was pure bliss.  We were both so happy.  She pushed away not long after that.

I'm glad that your BPDex helped you with liking yourself and shared intimacy with you, and I'm sorry you didn't feel that love from your father.  I often felt like I had to compete with my father, and sometimes still do, but I've let go of a lot of that. 

I feel the same way about my BPDex.  I told her near the end of our relationship that she had given me many gifts, which is very true.  She helped me see a strong, determined, loving side of me that was somewhat dormant before I met her.  She helped me open up to myself.  She helped me believe in myself more. 

She also helped to nearly destroy me.  Wow. 

[maria1]

Yes- it's horrible what this illness does to good people. It destroys, it has to. Our most intimate time was followed with fear and destruction too.

But you are out and you are growing stronger. Roots up. It's painful but its stronger that way. I see you standing firm even though it is very tough to do so. I am full of respect and admiration for you.

It's good that you have let stuff go about your father. In his last years before his stroke his behaviour seemed more bizarre; it became laughable and sad at the same time. If I cooked him a Neal he would always find something wrong with it, always. But latterly he would go off and then report back how he had improved on my recipe! Or he would tell me what he put in the recipe as if it was his own, but it was just the same as mine.

He also one Xmas gave me a box of chocolates with the ones he really liked already eaten!

[Phoenix.Rising]

It's like our fathers couldn't allow us to be who we are.  Maybe it is projection of their own shame, or self-hatred?  I'm not sure, but what matters is that we are enough just the way we are.  We are unique, and we are special.  Have a good night. 

[AnotherPhoenix]

Thanks AP

I'm learning not to just do things because I think I should and not to do things then and there which has always been my MO. I'm signed off sick which is a major thing for me. I could easily push myself into doing things with the extra time that affords me. even being too ill to work would normally mean i achieve something Somewhere else in my life (ridiculously). I'm not doing that right now but its still hard for me. It's hard because my body won't let me do much at all.

I too have learned not do do things because I "should". In my self-talk, I've replaced "I should", with "I want" or "would be good for me", even if I'm thinking about something that would be good for me to do. That has toned down my inner voice. I feel like I've been badly burned by the word should. First, from my FOO and then from my ex. She is soo judgemental. Of everybody and everything. "So and so should/shouldn't be doing ... .   "


I'm glad you are able to take time off.

I'm out of work and on unemployment, which is good and bad. It does free up more time to work on myself, but nobody understands what is going on. Plus, it is really hurting my finances and will be running out very soon. I'm also ready for work. It'll be an adjustment, but I am ready!

I can hear my dads voice waking me up in the mornings- he never let me lie in, never let me enjoy just being. He always thought he knew what was best for me. It's like he was disappointed in me for being me.

Me too! I always hated getting up in the mornings. More and more, I'm thinking that it's because as soon as I got up, I'd start getting bombarded with my family's dysfunction. I remember having an "aha" moment about 10 years ago when I visited my mom. I hid in bed until about 10:00. I could hear her tromping up and down the hall, trying to me to get me up (very passive aggressive). I didn't hide like this at home! Now, I realize that I've done this throughout my life, trying to escape, and when I realize I can't do that, to get myself mentally ready for the day.

Yesterday I made myself walk up to the shops. It's a little walk really and one I enjoy. Today my legs hurt unbelievably! It doesn't sound believable. I'm putting on weight with this and that's getting me down!

Accepting for myself that al anon might not fit in with stuff right now and that it isn't denial is giving myself a break. I like being able to stand up for that decision because I valued what I got from the first session.

Thank you for your support  

You are very welcome.