Dissociation during Marriage Therapy

[boundriesrus]

So we have been in marriage counseling for almost a year now. About 3 weeks ago we finally got into the hard stuff, such as why she does what she does when she hears the word no. I told her about the sexual assault she did to me 7-8 years ago when I told her I didn't want to have sex. She tells me and the therapist that she doesn't remember that happening. I then told her last night that she also said things like, (I had just quit my company due to my partners embezzling from me and them having the majority rule, money was short and still is as we are deep into the suit now) "I am going to keep spending money like we have already gotten our buyout" when I asked her to curb anything extra in terms of expenditures as I knew they were going to screw us legally and financially. She doesn't recall this after and even she said "That is so out of character for me" I agreed with her wholeheartedly and made the comment that is the main reason we are here. Which of course I am in therapy for gaslighting as my former partner was a Narc (diagnosed) and his wife BPD (also diagnosed) so these types of statements and realizations are really messing with my head as she seems to be doubling down. I do not know if she is lying or that she really can't remember things. She then went on to say (while crying understandably) about her being able to remember all the horrible things her Ex Husband did to her. Am I going crazy, or can I safely assume that my gut instinct is telling me that is is undiagnosed with BPD. You can check my previous threads to get the whole story on that as well, as myself and my therapist think this may be the case.

[schwing]

Hi Boundriesrus and

First off, I'm not a professional.  And even if I were a professional, I wouldn't be able to diagnose your wife like this.  That said, I can compare some of what you describe with my understanding of behaviors associated with people with BPD (pwBPD).

I told her about the sexual assault she did to me 7-8 years ago when I told her I didn't want to have sex. She tells me and the therapist that she doesn't remember that happening.

For some pwBPD, refusal for sex might be interpreted as a prelude to possible abandonment.  That might be one reason why should wouldn't accept your rejection.  The assault might have been a form of punishment for attempting to "abandon" her.  Getting you to submit would be a means of avoiding that imagined abandonment.

I then told her last night that she also said things like, (I had just quit my company due to my partners embezzling from me and them having the majority rule, money was short and still is as we are deep into the suit now) "I am going to keep spending money like we have already gotten our buyout" when I asked her to curb anything extra in terms of expenditures as I knew they were going to screw us legally and financially.

Different pwBPD use different kinds of self-gratification behaviors to alleviate their discontent.  Some use sex.  Some use spending.  Most (if not all) of these behaviors can be destructive and impulsive.

I do not know if she is lying or that she really can't remember things.

Does it matter if she cannot remember saying them?  Don't trust what she says, trust what she does.  If she continues to act in a manner that suggests she cannot control her destructive impulses, you'll need to respond to that.

She then went on to say (while crying understandably) about her being able to remember all the horrible things her Ex Husband did to her.

If she has BPD, you might consider asking her to describe those horrible things that her ex husband did to her.  Chances are some of what he did, are things which she actually did.  Dissociation is one behavior associated with BPD.  But so is Projection.

You're in the right place.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[Pook075]

Have you ever taken drugs?  Or had a night on the town with too much alcohol?

If you have, then you may remember the occasion differently than others around you.  So when you say, "That didn't happen," when reminded of those events, are you lying?

That's sort of where your wife is coming from as well.  She remembers things from her disassociated viewpoint where she's filled in many of the blanks to make things make sense.  That's BPD, in a nutshell.

[jaded7]

For some pwBPD, refusal for sex might be interpreted as a prelude to possible abandonment.  That might be one reason why should wouldn't accept your rejection.  The assault might have been a form of punishment for attempting to "abandon" her.  Getting you to submit would be a means of avoiding that imagined abandonment.


Does it matter if she cannot remember saying them?  Don't trust what she says, trust what she does.  If she continues to act in a manner that suggests she cannot control her destructive impulses, you'll need to respond to that.

If she has BPD, you might consider asking her to describe those horrible things that her ex husband did to her.  Chances are some of what he did, are things which she actually did.  Dissociation is one behavior associated with BPD.  But so is Projection.


Schwing

The anger explosion at being 'rejected' for sex is a common thread I've seen here. I experienced it myself, and was baffled by it. Especially since I was repeatedly turned down for sex, for months, and would just say 'ok honey, sleep well'. Because, people deserve to be respected. At least that's my belief.

And another mistake, I assumed she would apply the same beliefs and principles about how a person should act to herself.

As she was a very strong feminist (as am I), I believed in accepting the no. She apparently did not. I think Schwing gives some good insight here, it may have been her fear of rejection or abandonment that caused her to act in a way that she would find absolutely abusive and hurtful if I did it.

Also, the 'horrible' things the ex husband did. Many, many hours we spent discussing was a terrible person he is, me reading emails and texts from him to her that she forwarded me in the hopes (I guess?) of me validating to her what a terrible person he was. It was a major part of our relationship. Thing is, I detected no abusiveness or anger in those communications to her. I sensed frustration, understandably, since she would withhold information from him and/or misrepresent things and I could sense he knew she was doing that. I really came to doubt her stories about how abusive he was, especially when the huge anger explosions started and the belittling and name-calling of me, a very calm and loving person who never yelled at her or called her names.

Finally, the projection. Yes indeed. We really need to understand this, and it's hard to wrap your head around it. I was myself accused of so many things that I wasn't doing, or accused of thoughts I didn't have, or intentions I didn't have. It becomes really crazy-making. The very last conversation I had with her I told her "you accuse me of and yell at me for things you actually do". She said 'like what'. I detailed two very clear examples, and she invalidated and changed the story on both of them, accused me of starting a fight in one of them, and said that these things didn't happen.

[boundriesrus]

It truly is a sad thing going on for sure. The question I keep asking myself is, how did she hide this behavior for so long. It truly baffles my head, especially fro someone who thinks very logically.

in regards to her making up behaviors about her ex husband, it wouldn't surprise me if it was made up to a point or not. She avoided talking about it for years and most recently started telling me more things about the person being checked into a mental health facility and was doing to many of his ADHD meds and was all over the place. The Ex ended up coming out as Trans towards the end of her marriage and ultimately was the cause of that. I have seen her in the news as she quit her job over the abuse she was getting at the school that she was working with, so I know that part to be true.

However... she keeps making a comment about how she was hiding one night in the bathroom from one of his (she was still a he at this time) and was banging on the door screaming at her. I found a diary my wife was throwing away in the trash, that i turned to a page or two and saw what was being said from her childhood. Come to find out, her Dad was yelling at her one night for spilling her pizza on the table cloth. She got upset and ran out of the room, then locked herself in the bathroom, with apparently her dad banging on the door yelling at her to come out and clean up the mess before her mom got home. So maybe that? Her head is very much filled with bad wiring now, and of course her dad may be taking a turn for the worse in regards to his cancer treatments, so not sure what of all to do on that front. I am in the middle of trying to tell her that we need to get a divorce, and am now worried that this might be bad timing. I don't want to push her over the edge, but at the same time, I am not prepared to be married to her any longer than what is absolutely necessary. Not trying to be offensive, but it is what it is.

[Kashi]

I went through the same thing with sex.  I was saying no, I said it just matter of fact, then she was grabbing me which I think is a form of feelings of abandonment, then I said no, then I said it forcefully and pushed her off.

There were times, she pushed it.

There is no recognition years later of my rights and boundaries. 

I don't call it sexual assault because I don't feel it was.  I didn't feel that kind of intent.

I know the difference.  I guess between a lust and that someone doesn't care about if you want it or not and a desperate "need" which I felt it was.

How that gets turned around is I yelled at her and any display of anger, or frustration is a big no no to her.

She is a quiet BDP

Secondly, I rejected her.   BIG BIG betrayal in her eyes.   I made her feel unworthy, ugly and unloved.

But if you feel it was sexual assault that is a valid emotion and thought.  That is how it made you feel.

As a woman and having been out with guys, that kind of thing is just a matter of fact.  How many times I have said no and had get myself out of the situation.  Or get his hand out of my pants. (excuse my bluntness) I think many women go through that. 

So I kind of felt a bit different about it.  It didn't have that element where I thought I could be in real trouble here and be overpowered.  I could see her clinginess and need over taking her,  and was kind of shocked by it and angry.  But sexual assault I didn't feel. 

As far as forgetting what they say, I think sometimes it is a lie and sometimes not.

I honestly do think they mix up situations. I know that for a fact.

 I believe they can mix up their emotions for people, I haven't heard anyone say that, but I believe it is true.

They can mix up events, then they can multiply it.

It's real to them

Example I was always angry she said.  I counted the times we had an argument over the 15 years, and it came out about seven times.  I raised my voice maybe three or four of those times.  However, I was always angry. 

She can be so adamant she didn't say something one week and I can produce the text to say she did.  Then she is quiet. 

I tend to think the times she lies, she adds on some blame, and gaslighting.  Directly.

Altered reality moments is just pure confusion.  Not intentional but can be dangerous depending how it skews the narrative.   

However, under that narrative is generally a victim mentality


 

[boundriesrus]

Thank you Kashi for the feedback. I know it was definitely sexual assault for me, as when it happened I had already said no multiple times, on top of having a panic attack at the time, she jumped on my while crying and screaming, while forcefully grabbing things down there, all the while crying and repeatedly saying "Please please please, I need this, please...." before I even had a chance to acknowledge what was going on, as it happened with no warning. In short, I now have PTSD as a resultant of that particular night, and our sex life continued to be ruined by her over groping me for years, in front of people, our daughter, and with me saying for years, to please stop this, as I don't like it. She never listened and now the damage is done.

Sorry as I don't mean to vent, I am a firm believer in, when I say no...respect that.

And while I do not feel there was intent to hurt me, it still did. I am so sad in the fact that she will not acknodlge, or cannot remember the actions of her past. It truly does scare me that this is her reaction.

I am now seeing  all the patterns of perceived abandonments, rejections and slights. I to feel that my wife may be highfuntioning/quiet bpd. I love her very much but feel that divorce is the only way to deal with this issue and is best to move on separately with our lives, while co parenting our child together. I already have told her in therapy that i no longer love her in the sexual/romantic sense, and for someone who said sex is VERY important to her, she still wants to live in a non physical relationship. I feel it is only for money and emotional support at this point sadly.