I can’t be certain this marriage will make it…

[thankful person]

Hi all,

I’m feeling pretty down. I have learnt so much in how to successfully communicate with my wife and keep her rage at bay. I am standing up for myself and looking after myself now. And I have upheld my new ability to do things she “forbid” me from doing, like playing the piano and taking photos of my children. I have been much happier and I try to spread my message of hope on here that things will get better.

Our third baby was born a couple of weeks ago. At first things were wonderful. I was able to take on more childcare duties with my wife so busy with the little one.

But now things have come to a head where my wife is seriously splitting on me, telling me I have always made her suffer by not giving her the sex life she craves, and that she doesn’t feel desired and has never been happy in this relationship. This is following a devastating pattern which occurred for the first few months of our other two childrens’ lives. At those times I really was devastated. But now I’m not taking it so seriously, because at other times she talks of our future as a family like things are fine between us. But I can never be certain she won’t leave. Although it is me she wants to leave the family home.

We are a lesbian couple and I was always with men before. My wife seduced me during an online affair which was at first a friendship and developed into something poisonous very soon after. I left my ex and moved to the other side of the planet for my wife, even though I didn’t feel I was in control of my choices. At first I felt more confident sexually than ever, because I was just responding to her. She was sexually abused and raped as a child and teenager. I think that’s why she chose to become a lesbian. But very soon once we were physically together my confidence slowly but surely disappeared as I was highly criticised on many occasions and I had never been confident to begin with.

It feels as though I’m chasing the impossible. I have somewhat been “banned” from spontaneous displays of affection because “that’s all physical and I want the talk first!” But if I talk about how I crave her body or what I want to do to and with her then she says, “you’re talking about the physical that’s not what I  want!” I’ve never been rough enough for her. And she wants actions not words but then we don’t get much chance with 3 children under 4 and she’s breast feeding.

I’m doing alright compared to previous times but then now she’s accusing me of not caring because I’m not upset. I’m really not because I’m so over it now. I love her and I desire her. But I can’t save this on my own.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[babyducks]

Congratulations on the birth of your third child.   Such a significant milestone.

But now things have come to a head where my wife is seriously splitting on me, telling me I have always made her suffer by not giving her the sex life she craves, and that she doesn’t feel desired and has never been happy in this relationship.

I'm terribly sorry.    I know how painful it is to listen to words like that.    Still, it is not terribly surprising that she is experiencing this emotional downturn.  Us old timers know that times of stress,  good stress or bad stress, taxes the limited executive function that comes with this illness.    The lashing out is her release/escape valve to cope with chaotic emotions.    Its maladaptive coping to be sure.   I wonder how much of it is hormonal.

But I can never be certain she won’t leave. Although it is me she wants to leave the family home.

are you considering leaving?    how are you responding to her comments?

But very soon once we were physically together my confidence slowly but surely disappeared as I was highly criticised on many occasions and I had never been confident to begin with.

it's hard to develop and maintain a comfortable and trusting intimacy in the circumstances you describe.    you are not to be faulted for that.  my experience was that the incredible tension in the relationship built up a reserve that was hard to overcome.

I’m doing alright compared to previous times but then now she’s accusing me of not caring because I’m not upset. I’m really not because I’m so over it now. I love her and I desire her. But I can’t save this on my own.

this sounds like testing behavior.    sometimes I wonder if all those things we run into,  all those 'you must do it this way if you really love me', is just testing behavior to provide some sort of odd reassurance to our pwBPD.       almost as if they are trying frantically to fix the exterior things around them so they feel better about themselves.    it's quite sad really.

its hard to rebuild intimacy when it's been damaged.    I found that the body, my body kept score...  it was hard to let go and flow with the moment when way down deep, some place visceral inside I didn't trust that I was safe.

if you attempt to rebuild intimacy, I suggest to start ever so small, with tiny acts.   not for her sake.    for yours.   to help with the confidence.   so that you feel secure.

'ducks

[Notwendy]

In addition to what babyducks said/ a newborn is wonderful ( congrats!) and a stressor as well. BPD behaviors can escalate at stressful times. This is not to discount it or your feelings but your wife has BPD and in addition her hormones are all over the place after pregnancy and nursing and both of you are getting less sleep.

This would be a terrible time to make permanent decisions about your relationship as long as nobody is being physically dangerous. Your wife is very dependent on you right now and in addition isn’t feeling very attractive with baby weight and projecting that as being from you.

Take care of you ! You have her and little humans depending on you but Mom ( you ) need to take care of you too. Things will hopefully settle some even though BPD is a factor. You can reassess your relationship then.

[thankful person]

Thank you ducks and not Wendy for the congratulations and supportive words. Our new baby boy is wonderful, and our little girls adore him. The children have not been affected as much as they have in the past, by what is going on. One day my wife decided to keep shouting about things in front of them and I kept walking away when she raised her voice. I said I didn’t want to upset the children, but she feels they should know things aren’t good between us. They are very small and don’t deserve this. But most of the time they haven’t had to be aware of any of it.

I’m inclined to tentatively and hopefully believe things will be ok. My wife is not going anywhere, and I have nowhere to go either. I want to be here for my children (all the time), and as long as the atmosphere can remain calm then I think that is best for them. I do sometimes fantasise about not being with my wife. I NEVER fantasise about being with another person, ALWAYS about living alone and not being in a relationship. LOL. I’ve never lived alone or been single since I started dating.

When our first was born, it was hellish because I believed all of the threats and accusations and I cried all the time and didn’t cope. When the second was born, my wife tried it all again but you guys and the others in bpd family coached me through it and things never got quite as bad. This time I feel I am coping much better and funnily I think that’s why my wife almost seems at times to “forget” how much she hates this relationship and she talks as though things are fine. Those times she “forgets” are my favourite times.

Thank you again for all your help. It seems this will be our final child, as my wife has been cautioned about the dangers and stress on her body if she has more babies. We have one more embryo in storage, but have been discussing donating it to someone else. This is very mature for my wife and of course it’s putting further stress on her. We have always thought of those embryos as our babies. Our children are very close to each other (and close in age). I’m hoping they will support each other too in future.

[Notwendy]

Your wife is invested in having babies so the idea of "no more" is emotionally hard - even if it is the right thing for her, health wise. Since she just had a baby, it's probably safe to not discuss this a lot at the moment as it's not the time for another embryo, just a few weeks after giving birth. If she brings up being sad about this, then be supportive of her feelings about that.

No, the kids don't need to be involved in your conflict. Kids need to feel secure. If they think their mothers are not getting along, it can only scare them. The issues between the two of you are adult issues.

You can pay attention to your own feelings and if your feelings about the relationship continue, that is something to consider. You can't control your wife's decision. I doubt she's even able to go anywhere at the moment, even if she talks about it.

[outhere]

I do sometimes fantasise about not being with my wife. I NEVER fantasise about being with another person, ALWAYS about living alone and not being in a relationship. LOL.

Hi.  I just wanted to say that I also experience this.  I imagine it comes from a desire for peace and stability, or said another way, a break from the chaos.  Thanks for sharing your experience, it's helpful to know that others have the same difficult feelings!

[thankful person]

Hi not Wendy, it is my wife who is constantly wanting to discuss the final embryo, when she’s not talking about how I’ve failed her in this marriage and continue to do so. I am trying to be supportive and validating about the baby situation but it’s harder to validate her feelings about me. We are not about to make any harsh decisions about the embryo as we pay to keep it in storage each year and it is legally 50% mine, even though it is biologically hers. So she can’t make any decisions without my consent.

Outhere, thank you for your post too. My wife and all my ex’s have always been so controlling. I have worked on this lots recently and made lots of positive changes. But it continues to be a balancing act which requires thought and careful execution. For example if I want to buy my kids some clothes… my wife might be upset/angry or whatever that she wasn’t involved or consulted. I’ve started doing such things anyway. But I’d love to just do my own thing without carefully dodging repercussions… get up when I want, eat what I want, wear what I want, see who I want… and no one would question any of it… it would be heaven. But as long as things can remain mostly calm here then I  want to be here with my children. We just need to get through the next few months (with her thinking I’m the worst wife ever) and then hopefully things can improve again. She thinks that I could make her feel desired if I said it did the right thing. But I don’t think so.

[Notwendy]

I think a way to stay out of the embryo discussion is that, it's not really up to you at the moment. I don't think any doctor is going to implant an embryo weeks after having given birth and exclusively breast feeding. Also, the decision is influenced by her overall health. I think a boundary for this is to validate her feelings, make no promises ,and say "I understand your concern. This is a discussion we would have to have with your doctor later. I wish to focus on our children and this new baby at the moment and not discuss this until later".

You may need to repeat this a lot. Validate her feelings, but don't get into a circular discussion over something that isn't up to either of you right now. Don't make promises. If she pushes you, then reply- that is something to bring up with your doctor. Yes, you have a legal say in it, but at the moment, nobody has a say in it as it's not a good time to discuss it.

[outhere]

My wife and all my ex’s have always been so controlling.

I wonder about this pattern in my own life as well.  Perhaps there is a personality type that pwBPDs are drawn to.

But I’d love to just do my own thing without carefully dodging repercussions… get up when I want, eat what I want, wear what I want, see who I want… and no one would question any of it… it would be heaven.

I feel this 100%!  Walking on eggshells is a strange form of torture.

[SaltyDawg]

I wonder about this pattern in my own life as well.  Perhaps there is a personality type that pwBPDs are drawn to.

Short one word answer for the personality type:  "Caretaker"

Long answer, read section 1 of the following book:  Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life by Margalis Fjelstad

[thankful person]

Long answer, read section 1 of the following book:  Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life by Margalis Fjelstad

I often recommend this book. I learnt so much from it. I have the audiobook and have never stopped listening to it often in my car. I had indeed ended (most of) the drama, and was getting on with life. It was amazing. I realised that a certain form of caretaking is still necessary, if you’re to have a successful relationship with a pwbpd. You need to often validate, try not to JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain). The eggshells didn’t completely disappear for this reason. But I was foolish in that I was beginning to believe this relationship was safe. Even though it is our third child that just arrived, and we went through this exact same pattern for the first two children during the first year… The fact is that if my wife decides that she isn’t going to change her mind… that I have never made her feel desired and she has never been happy with me…. then this marriage will not make it. I feel numb about it. I want to be with my children. I don’t believe for a moment my wife would be happier with someone else. But it’s out of my control.

[Notwendy]

The fact is that if my wife decides that she isn’t going to change her mind… that I have never made her feel desired and she has never been happy with me…. then this marriage will not make it. I feel numb about it. I want to be with my children. I don’t believe for a moment my wife would be happier with someone else. But it’s out of my control.

Yes, how your wife thinks and feels is out of your control. What you have just expressed is a boundary for you- you don't wish to stay in a marriage where your spouse believes it's up to you to make them feel desired. . We can not "make" someone feel anything- it's their feelings. You may desire them, you may show that in many ways- but if they can not "see" what's in front of them, that isn't under your control. You can decide there's a limit to how much you want to deal with if this continues.

When it happens that a partner moves on, it appears they have found someone "better" who makes them happy. The former partner may feel they were somehow inadequate. Recall that BPD relationships start out with an idealism stage. But a new partner isn't a solution to BPD. The disordered dynamics will still be there. You are correct, your wife won't be happier with anyone else, but if she did find someone else, it may appear she is at first and this can feel hurtful - but her disordered behavior is not about you.

She can decide to leave if she wants to but of all the times to do that, this would be one of the most difficult. I recall after having a baby- it was wonderful and tiring. I was hormonal and sleep deprived and feeding baby took a lot of time. I could barely get it together to go to the store, or take a shower,  let alone go out and meet anybody else if I had wanted to. She may complain but I doubt she's going anywhere and if she did, it would be very hard to do. I would refrain from reacting to what she says at the moment. You can reassess when both of you are more into a routine with the baby.  If she acts on it, that's her decision.

[thankful person]

Not Wendy,
We are going to continue living together but my wife has announced we are not together and I have removed my wedding  rings at her request. I am no longer in the marital bed, which I was only back in briefly for a few days after baby was born.. I know from past experience that she will be very committed to not saying “I love you” and she won’t accept any physical affection. Yet she is still demanding that I make her feel desired, and that I do this through some words but I don’t know what to say and I am trying but of course it’s not good enough. What is the best way to handle these demands?
I have cancelled the school job because she’s not coping with the kids. She bullied me into it but I didn’t want to leave her to it and it’s a temporary job anyway. I’ll go back to cleaning for a bit, but the piano teaching job on Thursday is non negotiable as it’s very good money.

[Notwendy]

She's done this before. Perhaps this time, you are paying attention to your feelings, and that is a good thing and are not going to consider self neglect. For now, it is what it is, and child care is a main focus with a new baby. Her expectation that you "make her feel desired" under the circumstances- you out of the bed, and "not together" status is on the lines of the push-pull "I hate you don't leave me" and illogical- but emotions aren't logical. Still, that isn't your role to manage her emotions. The "nothing is good enough" is frustrating. That's not about you. In my own experience with my BPD mother, that is a common dynamic, but again, it's your wife's own feelings that drive this.

As much as it hurts to hear her complaints, they are likely her own projections. As to her not being able to cope with the kids on her own, a newborn and little ones are an adjustment- and she also has BPD. It's unfortunate you had to leave your school job- but this was for the sake of the children, even if she seemed to bully the situation. It is in the best interest of the children that you are there. I am glad you are holding your ground to your piano lessons. That brings you joy and income. That would be a boundary to hold on to.

A newborn is an adjustment. Try to take care of yourself as much as you can although it's a norm for new parents to be sleep deprived and be doing a lot of child/baby care at this time. The children are your focus now. Your wife will feel what she feels. Understandably what she says and does is hurtful, but it's more about her than you.

[Cat Familiar]

The dynamic appears to be a common theme with BPD partners. They wish for something, a particular thing or outcome, thinking that having that will make them feel complete/healed/fulfilled—or whatever?

Then when they achieve this outcome, they’re once again disappointed, maybe even more so than they expected, and then they look for externals to blame—like you, their partner.

It seems that babies are her manifestation of wish fulfillment and once they exist, and all the difficulty that comes along with that, then she reconsiders and thinks that you’re to blame for her lack of satisfaction with her life.

Thoughts?

[thankful person]

 Not Wendy and Cat, thanks as always for your support and insight. I think what’s giving it a different spin this time has been how strong I have felt. But of course with new little one and text arguments through the night as well as the atmosphere you could cut like a knife… today my wife finally wore me down and I did get very upset and we screamed at each other in front of the children and I’m very ashamed about that. But since then it seems like my wife has temporarily calmed down since getting the emotional reaction from me which she craved. I wish I had handled it better.
Cat, yes I have observed this pattern time and again in this relationship, my wife always wants something and then it’s never as good as she wanted it to be. Of course the first thing I knew her to fixate on was me. She “stole” me from my ex assuring me that I could make her happy. The crazy thing is he said to me, “it’s like she’s got some kind of hold over you…” He knew. And I knew, but was never going to admit it.
I just wasn’t prepared for this. For some reason I thought things would run smoother with this baby, as my wife has been so much calmer and more sane this past year.
You guys as always, are amazing. I feel so much less alone now.

[SaltyDawg]

thankful person,

   The one time that I had a panic attack [when it hit me like a ton of bricks that my uBPDw likely has BPD a few months ago], pretty much the only time that I ever acted crazier than her, she was really really calm.  Super weird, I have read other places (don't have the link) that BPD's do this as they get some kind of validation that they are NOT the crazy one as they, for the moment, at least from outward appearances are the more stable one.

[thankful person]

thankful person,

   The one time that I had a panic attack [when it hit me like a ton of bricks that my uBPDw likely has BPD a few months ago], pretty much the only time that I ever acted crazier than her, she was really really calm.  Super weird, I have read other places (don't have the link) that BPD's do this as they get some kind of validation that they are NOT the crazy one as they, for the moment, at least from outward appearances are the more stable one.

That’s interesting. Some of the things she was screaming at me were, “you don’t care! I don’t see any emotion from you! You’re cold like your mother!” I used to get very upset, very quickly when she turned on me. But since I joined bpd family, got the advice here, and read the bpd books, I am calmer. I’m also tougher given that I’ve been through this cycle with her several times now. I’m not sure if there’s any way she could have reached that calmness, had I stayed calm.

[Notwendy]

I think what you are describing is that, you have grown emotionally and are now questioning the long term prospects for your relationship. What you had hoped for is that your wife also has grown with the changes in you, not that any of us can change someone else, but that we can change our part in the dynamics. Seeing her in the similar patterns as before makes you wonder about that.

One question would be - is her apparent regression a result of the adjustment to the changes after pregnancy and a newborn- or a challenge to the relationship long term? The answer may not be clear at the moment.

While the relationship tools can help us change our role in disordered dynamics, they can not change that someone has BPD. Many of the BPD behaviors are their ways of coping with their uncomfortable emotions. Unfortunately these behaviors also affect other people who are connected to them.

What I have noticed with my own BPD mother is that her BPD behaviors increase during stressful times. That makes sense- if these are coping behaviors- they would increase during these times and decrease when there is less stress. "Happy" events can still be stressful in ways- new baby, moving to a new house- these can be both happy events and stressful at the same time.

BPD mother also does what Cat Familiar described as looking at an external source as a solution for their own distress, such as believing a new baby would lead to happiness and then realizing the internal feelings aren't solved by something external. Perhaps same with "stealing" you from your ex- that you were the "one" to do that for her but it is not something anyone can do for her.

Don't be hard on yourself for getting emotional and angry. This is a happy time and a stressful time for your family. You are correct that you staying calm may not lead to her staying calm. You are both separate people. Your feelings are yours, hers and hers. Your task is to pay attention to your feelings and if you are feeling agitated- it's a sign you need to take care of yourself- disengage and allow yourself to calm down. It's about you. But you are human too!

[thankful person]

Thanks not Wendy,
You’re right, I’m not sure whether this is just a reaction to the new baby, or a more permanent shift in the way my wife sees me. I have come to realise how delusional she is, like she fully believes at the moment that I’ve ruined her life for many years, whereas she has acted really quite happy with things this past year, during her pregnancy, with our two girls, moving to a temporary home for the summer and then into our new home so it’s all been very challenging. I’ve been very happy actually. I love the freedom I have allowed myself and asserted to her that I will do what I want now.
I want this marriage to work. My hope is that if my wife somehow gets past this split (again)… then we can raise our children together in a mostly calm and positive environment. I think the prospect of not having any more babies has also hit her hard.
Funny about you mentioning, “I hate you, don’t leave me.” My wife has actually been saying that she needs me (around to help with the children) today. I have managed to arrange my school students so that I will only be home during the mornings. It was a good compromise. I’m loving taking my eldest to daycare and the middle one has become much closer to me and my wife has not flipped out over this… yet.
My wife still speaks of plans for the future as a happy family and buying us matching Christmas charm bracelets. She has also mentioned today that we should return our anniversary gifts as we won’t be celebrating and that we’re a “broken family”. It’s like she doesn’t know what she wants.
As I said, I do somewhat dream of being on my own. But I mostly just want my children to be happy and emotionally healthy. I think I will post in the conflicted board at sometime see what others say.

[Notwendy]

... a more permanent shift in the way my wife sees me. I have come to realize how delusional she is.
I think I will post in the conflicted board at sometime see what others say.

The may also reflect a new perspective on your relationship on your part. While you wish for your marriage to work, you also want to explore some other opinions and ideas.