Holiday advice

[thankful person]

Hi all,
Bpdw and I are taking our family on holiday abroad for the first time. Three children under 4. Eek as though that was the biggest challenge but no I think as usual it will be my wife’s bpd. I know about validating and not JADEing and I’m quite good at that now. I do try to keep the peace for the children even though I’m also trying not to caretake and let my wife experience and solve her own problems.. Any other advice? I’m determined to breathe deeply and secretly enjoy the holiday even though I’m sure bpdw will hate it. I deserve a break and to relax. I mean like I’ll enjoy things like the sunshine and warm breeze and food etc. I won’t tell her I’m enjoying it if she’s not. But I expect things will be hard.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Smedley Butler]

I have no advice to offer but I do empathize. Every vacation is an eggshell extravaganza never knowing when my wife will explode and why. I find copious amounts of alcohol help, but I can't say I recommend that as a healthy course of action.

[waverider]

Just be aware that you start to experience feelings of being trapped with the level of awareness of making "a scene" that is witnessed by others being heightened. There could also be other unpredictable triggers. So keep things as simple as possible without trying to cram too much in.

There could be be conflicts between what she wants to do and what the kids do, so you could be playing referee there.

Hope all goes well, sadly for me I gave up on vacations as there was no help, and my "work load" tripled and it just became a case of taking the drama show on a road trip. I was more frazzled by the time I got back than before going.

[thankful person]

I find copious amounts of alcohol help, but I can't say I recommend that as a healthy course of action.

Haha Smedley, I like the sound of this, but it’s a mixed bag because of course it generally makes bpdw’s behaviour worse and then she gets even more angry because I’m better at playing the part of “I really don’t care” after a couple of drinks.

Waverider, thanks for the well wishes. I know I will be frazzled afterwards, but someone was very insistent about booking this holiday “To save our marriage” even though I knew at the time it wouldn’t.

[kells76]

Glad you get some sunshine! We also did an overseas warm weather trip with the kids a couple of years ago. While neither H nor I have a PD, the kids' mom and stepdad have many traits, so we did have to deal with that impacting the weeks leading up to departure, plus the kids' experience there.

What do you think is the worst that could happen

-leading up to the trip
-at departure
-during the trip

?

For us, it was:

-leading up: kids' mom would "convince" them "they didn't really want to go after all"
-at departure: we'd go to pick up kids from Mom's and they'd say in the doorway "I don't want to go" and Mom would say " What can I do, I can't force them to go"
-during the trip: one or both would run away from us

Working through the what-ifs about worst case scenario ahead of time could be a helpful exercise to have some ready-to-go plans in the moment, when stress may be high.

So, for us, H and I decided ahead of time that if at departure the kids asserted "we don't want to go", and if Mom played helpless, then he and I would say -- That's too bad, we'll really miss you, can't wait to see you when we get back -- and walk away. We had to be ready not to give in and to stay strong, and to let the kids experience the natural outcome of appeasing Mom's manipulations (the kids were 12 & 15 at the time). Not an easy decision to come to, but in a way, freeing, so that we felt ready for the possible worst-case ahead of time. (Pickup went okay, though SD15 was teary at our place and needed one more trip back to Mom's to say goodbye again. She also had an attitude during the trip, but at the end of the day, both of them went and neither ran away, so I guess that's a win)

So -- I wonder if listing out some specific "worst case" scenarios here, and coming up with plans, could be helpful?

Your kids are younger, but child-related conflicts (between parents) could be on the list. Also, W "throwing a fit" is probably on your list. What else? Let's problem-solve 

[thankful person]

Kells,

Honestly the trip is two days away and we have so much to prepare and the worst has probably just happened at this stage which is my wife bullying me out of our home. I’m just sitting in my car crying. I didn’t even say goodbye to my children and they’ll be wondering where I am. But I can’t go back tonight because my wife will start shrieking at me and I don’t want them to see that. I haven’t eaten or even had a drink. I just want to die. I can’t stand this pain. I have no one to turn to and nowhere to go. I’ll be fine.

[Notwendy]

Please take care of yourself. This is your house too and you are paying for it. Go back inside, tell your wife she doesn't get to kick you out of your home. These are your children. This is BS. Let her shriek. Yes, it's scary for the kids but you disappearing is scary too. The kids will see plenty of this kind of thing if the two of you stay together. ( we kids saw plenty and some of it too awful to post about but this marriage was our parents' choice to decide on)

If your wife wants to go somewhere, that is on her but she doesn't get to bully you out of your home. If she gets violent, then take the kids with you. The more you let her bully you, that won't stop it.

Can you cancel the holiday? Or at least get some money back from the hotel? I think that is in order. If your wife is going to behave like this, then she can't expect to be indulged with a holiday. We saw this kind of thing too. Lovely expensive holidays that BPD mother wanted to "save the marriage". A holiday doesn't save a dysfunctional marriage.

[babyducks]

Boil this down to the simplest things you can do immediately.

Eat.
Drink.
Sleep.

Simple Simple things.

[thankful person]

Thanks guys I’m back home and feeling better now. I’m not sure how to enact boundaries around being accused of not making an effort. I understand that I can’t control what she chooses to say to me, but I can choose how I respond. I get that my wife is delusional in thinking she needs to get through to me that everything is my fault and nothing I’m doing is good enough. And I get that nothing I could do would be good enough when she’s like that. But honestly making an effort is the last thing I feel like. If she starts again later then I may end up leaving again and sleeping in my car somewhere. I don’t know what else to do. I’m still hoping she’ll come round (a bit) before the holiday but it remains to be seen how the night and next couple of days go. If you don’t hear from me it’ll mean I’m doing ok.

[babyducks]

The boundary isn't around what she thinks.

The boundary is around how she treats you.  And the kids.

I won't stay in a conversation when there's yelling.  It's not good for the kids to hear shouting. 

I feel its not good to have these talks when we're tired.  Let's schedule a time when we are rested.

I think we've covered this topic thoroughly.   Let's let it go for now.

I'm going to stop this talk because of the harsh words between us.   We should talk kindly to each other.

[thankful person]

Thanks Ducks, I’ve tried all this but she just doesn’t let it go… in the end she fell asleep but I had a terrible night as I couldn’t relax to get to sleep. She’s promised me today is going to be a terrible day.

[thankful person]

Someone’s inbox is full! This is the long message I wrote I didn’t want to lose.
Thank you for taking the time to write me such a long and helpful message.
It’s been a journey. The taking and sharing photos was my first boundary where I put my foot down. I did it all wrong as I hadn’t found any resources yet to handle things better. But we got through it though it nearly destroyed our marriage. Now my wife is “refusing” to welcome my mother into our home and basically she doesn’t want her seeing the kids at all. It is a similar situation where she had split on my mum saying she makes no effort etc. I am determined to tackle this after the holiday and if it ends my marriage tbh my wife is right when she says I would have left by now if it wasn’t for the kids.
I will take time to reread and process all your advice and thoughts. I feel stronger from all the support here. I can’t imagine how people had to deal with all this when they couldn’t share it with anyone who understood. Thank God for the internet but then I met my wife on the internet haha. But I know I’m supposed to be here, raising these kids, so I guess it’s worked out as it had to. I was my wife’s first serious relationship. We moved in together when she was 21 and I was 35.
I’m still determined to enjoy the holiday LOL I’ll be sure to let you know how it goes. I love the point about how the emotional abusers are acting to keep us in the relationship. Crazy truth. I looked up sleep deprivation and emotional abuse and it is a common thing and I thought of sharing it with my wife. Without mentioning the dreaded bpd it is mentioned in the website I found “out of the fog” or something…
Thanks again.

[waverider]

Thanks Ducks, I’ve tried all this but she just doesn’t let it go… in the end she fell asleep but I had a terrible night as I couldn’t relax to get to sleep. She’s promised me today is going to be a terrible day.

You cant dance with a suicide bomber who is tap dancing in a minefield with no care for the consequences. You simply have to remove yourself.

I know it sucks to be suddenly stuck somewhere in the car all of a sudden with nowhere to go. Gets even worse in winter (which is the case here). Usually results in us returning too early.

[Notwendy]

she had split on my mum saying she makes no effort etc.

I highlighted this as it seems to be her perspective- and with you as well.

One of the frustrating aspects of trying to assist my mother is that she doesn't perceive effort or good intentions. This is victim perspective. I don't think she can see it as it doesn't fit the role of victim.

I do put in effort, but the shift for me is that, if I do something, it's from my own value system, not to have any impact on her feelings or for any approval. The latter is just demoralizing as it seems it doesn't make an impression on her.

Even efforts to help her are perceived as attacking her. If we offer advice, she thinks we are invalidating her. We've had discussions about her spending- because it impacts her, but she sees us as punishing her or depriving her.

I think this "effort" reasoning is her issue, not your mother's. Your mother seems to have been doing a lot, helping financially is an effort. So are you. If she can't see it, that's her issue and it's how she thinks- we can't change that.

I do agree with the "this is where we are supposed to be" idea. Philosophically, our relationships are learning experiences. You are where you are supposed to be. But are you supposed to continue as you are, or make changes? I know for me, my experiences have led me to be more assertive, to be a bit tougher, and hold boundaries better. It's not my nature to be like that. With a mother though, I try to balance this with my own values- I don't want to act in a hurtful manner to her but she dislikes boundaries. I have to accept that I won't meet her expectations of what I should be doing for her. I don't think anyone can.

I did get to a "hitting bottom" with my parents' abusive behavior- decided this was not something I would tolerate. I also made some mistakes with boundaries at first, like you did with the photos. I think in any relationship that is significant- parent, spouse- we  need to feel we tried all we could. I think Ducks mentioned that there could be a time where we feel we have done that. If this episode of you sitting in your car isn't your "bottom" - then you aren't there yet and everyone's timing is individual- some people stay and some choose to not stay. There is choice, albeit a difficult one either way.

FWIW-  I love kids but at age 21 I was not ready to handle being married and having children. With BPD, your wife's emotional age may be younger than that. You don't want to be too enabling - that can inhibit the other person's emotional growth, but also, you don't want to put too much expectations on someone who can't handle them. It's a challenging balance.

[babyducks]

I’ve tried all this but she just doesn’t let it go…

then you have to enforce the boundary.    leave.    waverider is right.  simply remove yourself.   can you safely exit?

and I would add stay gone until you feel better.  until you feel comfortable returning.   don't go back because she says 'come home now'.  that undermines the boundary.

She’s promised me today is going to be a terrible day.

you don't have to stay for another terrible day.   leaving doesn't mean you will be gone permanently.   you do not have to sit there and listen to that over and over again.   I would recommend you not sit there and listen to that endlessly.

Thankful Person,  its time you take care of yourself.    to put yourself first.  and to put yourself in a safe place where you can get some sleep and recharge your batteries.    I understand you are supposed to be going on holiday.   I would suggest the holiday is not the important thing here.   you are.    we've talked about self care in the past.    this is beyond self care.   this is safety!   you do not want this to escalate any further than it already has.    put yourself in a safe place where you can begin to destress.

my two cents
'ducks