Amnesty

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

As most of you know I am currently dealing with some major problems with my fiance. On Friday I looked him up on his county website and found out he had not filed for divorce. He claims he had and either his lawyer or the county clerk didn't do their job. Although I don't believe him I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him a week to prove himself.  As I've been struggling with the multiplicity of things I have to forgive him for I began to consider the idea of amnesty. A former therapist had suggested that I give my fiance a day of amnesty to come clean on anything he may have neglected to tell me. If he does not admit to not having filed then I have a right to be free of the relationship. My former therapist also told me I had the right to have a life partner who was free of deception which is the big thing I'm struggling with here. My fiance has claimed he has not deceived me. Have any of you tried amnesty and been successful at it? It definitely does not come naturally to me yet I know I have done my share of wrongs in my life so I am definitely not one to point the finger. I also do not know if I am prepared for a breakup at this time. My daughter's birthday is coming up and she and my fiance have an active relationship so breaking up now would not be good timing.

[unicorn2014]

As most of you know I am currently dealing with some major problems with my fiance. On Friday I looked him up on his county website and found out he had not filed for divorce. He claims he had and either his lawyer or the county clerk didn't do their job. Although I don't believe him I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him a week to prove himself.  As I've been struggling with the multiplicity of things I have to forgive him for I began to consider the idea of amnesty. A former therapist had suggested that I give my fiance a day of amnesty to come clean on anything he may have neglected to tell me. If he does not admit to not having filed then I have a right to be free of the relationship. My former therapist also told me I had the right to have a life partner who was free of deception which is the big thing I'm struggling with here. My fiance has claimed he has not deceived me. Have any of you tried amnesty and been successful at it? It definitely does not come naturally to me yet I know I have done my share of wrongs in my life so I am definitely not one to point the finger. I also do not know if I am prepared for a breakup at this time. My daughter's birthday is coming up and she and my fiance have an active relationship so breaking up now would not be good timing.

[formflier]

 

I wouldn't go too far down the road of what ifs... .until Friday comes and goes.

If you get good... .verifiable papers... .then... .things are ok.


If you don't... .then your plan to take a break is a good one.

My recommendation is that you be in no hurry... .spend time on here fleshing out ideas... .and with your therapist.

Trust is a big deal... .once it is broken... .it is hard to rebuild... .and takes time.

Very little chance that the trust will be rebuilt without each party having a T... .and a T (MC) that is dedicated to the relationship.

Time is important... .because some people can "rise to the occasion" for an event... .to prove trust. 

If Friday comes and goes with no papers... .you need much more than an event... .you need a change of lifestyle on the part of your fiancee... .

The only way to verify this is to observe carefully over a long time.

Last thought:  Stay away from labels.

"Break up" is a label... ."deceiver" is a label... .we could go on.

Thing about what "taking a break" looks like... .without a label.

Make the "break" about you... .not him.

"It appears I have been mistaken about the last three years... "  is much better to work with for a pwBPD than "You have deceived me"

 

Hang in there

FF

[formflier]

 

To directly answer the amnesty question... .

I would only do that under the auspices of a therapist... .

Having a bunch of stuff come out... .who knows what... .could be explosive... .

Not something for amateur hour... or "do it yourself".


Last thought:

Your relationship and truth is a much bigger deal than a birthday...

Yes... .there may be disappointment if a b-day is messed up... .but better to mess up a bday... .than three more years of your life...

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF, Thanks for your advice. I don't currently have a T as my last two T thought I was fine on my own. My fiance is currently working with one of my former T who said he would work with us as a couple when my fiance moves out to where I am. I'm pretty sure that if I have to take a break from the r/s I'm going to have to get a new T to support me. When I divorced my child's father I developed PTSD as a result. I don't want to go through that again. I'm not an amateur or doing it myself, I have a strong recovery program as well as a pastor I can talk to.

I agree with you about the labels, taking a break is better then breakup.  I was under the understanding that he had filed papers which is what had allowed the r/s in the first place  and  I need him to file his papers before the r/s can continue. I know my fiance is going to fight me on this so I hope he has solved the problem by Friday. Its possible he sent them to me in the mail today as he told me he sent me a box today. He told me he was going to give them to me for a birthday present and my birthday was last month.

Then there's the problem of my anger and the fact that he knew I asked to see these papers in June and that when I went to look for them this month online they weren't there. I'm definitely not a happy camper and I'm definitely thinking I'm going to need some help if I'm going to take a break.

What the last poster said was true that my fiance sees himself as married to me and I don't see it that way because he's still legally married to someone else. It is about function and form. I'm very traditional, if you're married you're married, if you're divorced, you're divorced.

In terms of my daughter its not just her birthday I'm concerned about. She sees this man as her stepfather so its not just me that's involved anymore.

[formflier]

  She sees this man as her stepfather so its not just me that's involved anymore.

How your daughter sees this man... .is up to her.

How you see this man... .is up to you.

This your r/s.  Don't get confused by other things.

How old is your daughter?

Labels:  I would stay away from the label "taking a break".

Many times it is better to "do" a boundary... .than to "explain" one.

If there is no r/s if there are no papers... .then any further contact would be about the papers.  All other subjects issues are off the table.  Just do it... .don't explain it. 

pwBPD respect action... .rarely respect explanations.  That is why JADE is not good...

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF, my D is 14. She has an independent r/s with my fiance. He is actually very helpful to her and helpful to me, for the most part, with her so this is one loss I am not looking forward to facing. Its really hard for me to be a single parent with my family background and personality and temperament.

I understand about the action and not talk, I read how to stop caretaking the borderline and get on with your life. I also know about no JADE, ironically enough that's also an Al-Anon concept, which I learned when I was divorcing my former husband.

I don't know if I have the energy to uphold a boundary right now. As you know borderlines are known boundary pushers. That is why if I have to set a boundary I am going to get another T because I definitely don't have the energy to do this on my own right now. I really hope this problem is solved on Friday.

[KateCat]

I'm in admiration of formflier's thoughts here. They sound like very generous and very efficient approaches to the difficult moment that is approaching for you.

From what you have mentioned of your father and his values, I'm betting he would be in great agreement with this approach. 

You may not be quite ready for this strong stance, though. This is really, really tough.

[formflier]

That is why if I have to set a boundary I am going to get another T because I definitely don't have the energy to do this on my own right now. I really hope this problem is solved on Friday.

Energy management... .

Very... .very important when dealing with a pwBPD.   

Also important when upholding boundaries.

Help me understand how this (potential) boundary is going to take a lot of energy?

Here is how I see it playing out. 

No papers... .

You text him that you will be available to look over any papers he may have in 1 week time... .that you will be in contact with him then.

Then... .go on about your life.

My understanding is that you are in LDR... .correct?

So... .have no communication until a week later... .

If he sends papers overnight... .don't talk to him about it until your next communication deadline comes up.

You could spend that extra time verifying (most likely with help of your Dad) that what you have are real... .that everything adds up.

How does this sound to you?

FF

[formflier]

 

Also... .I would make a call about a T TOMORROW

Papers or no papers... .there are lots of things to work out.

We can play a big role... .but there is no substitute for an in person T.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Katecat, I would tread lightly with the issue of my father. Its one thing to give out advice, its another thing entirely to be willing to help out when things go south. All he said is don't use you messages, which I can totally get behind. That is basic assertive communication which I learned in college, if not high school. There is nothing he can do for me in this situation. That is part of the problem. He's leaving it to me to figure it out. He will not involve himself in my personal matters as a matter of principle.

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, I think you are unaware of the kind of LDR we have. We are in constant contact through text, phone, find friends, facebook, facetime. I can't just go radio silent. I think you are also overestimating the role of my father here. All he did is tell me not to use you messages. In terms of the energy to uphold a boundary? Let's see, we're going from daily communication to nothing. My partner is not going to go along with that. Get on with my life? What life? My life is very much intertwined with my fiance's life. Remember what the other poster said about him acting like he's married to me? That's how its been. I don't think I've been doing my relationship justice by how I've described it on this board. I hope that other poster comes back as she seemed to have a much better grasp on the situation then everyone else. The one who was talking about the form and function of marriage.

[formflier]

  There is nothing he can do for me in this situation. That is part of the problem. He's leaving it to me to figure it out. He will not involve himself in my personal matters as a matter of principle.

Isn't he a legal professional of some sort... .I remember something about that?

Is he a lawyer?

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF, He is a paralegal however I have just as much of a working knowledge of the law as he does in this situation because of my experience with my child's father. The legal approach is not going to work here. What the other poster was talking about in terms of the form and function of marriage is what is at stake here. I hope she comes back and posts again, she's the only one who seems to understand the situation.

[formflier]

I can't just go radio silent.

Why not?  Honestly need to understand this... .perhaps I am missing something. 

From my point of view... it takes energy to facetime, talk on phone... compose texts... .if that stops... you have energy to put to something else.

Again... standing by to fill in a blank that I may be missing.

I think you are also overestimating the role of my father here. All he did is tell me not to use you messages.

Perhaps I am... I asked a question about what he does... .if he is a legal professional.

   Let's see, we're going from daily communication to nothing. My partner is not going to go along with that.

Very likely he will expend a lot more energy... .  I'm not seeing how you not spending energy on talking, face-timing, etc etc... .is going to "take" more energy. 

Again... standing by for blanks to be filled in.

 

Get on with my life? What life? My life is very much intertwined with my fiance's life.

Ahh... .this is a bit of a separate issue... .but one that should be worked on if there is going to be long term success in a r/s with a pwBPD traits.  Enmeshment is generally not good... .detachment usually is.

Again... separate from Fridays thing... .but if there are no papers... you might as well start building an independent life... .he may reform and join you.   But... .either way... you need a fulfilling life that is not dependent or enmeshed with his.

FF

[formflier]

  I hope she comes back and posts again, she's the only one who seems to understand the situation.

What is it that you believe some of us don't understand?

I think I do understand... .but I am open.  I remember the post you are discussing... .I'll go review it again.

FF

[KateCat]

That was the wonderful pallavirajsinghani, if I remember correctly.

I know I am definitely not quite understanding your position at this point.

[formflier]

 

Boundaries are not about... .for... .or in anyway dependent on the "other person"

A boundary is for you.

Whether or not they (the other person) likes a boundary is irrelevant... .

I understand that may sound harsh... .but what it really should illustrate is the importance of a boundary.

It's also why you don't pick and set boundaries "willy - nilly"  They should have deep ... thoughtful... consideration.

Note:  I believe you are on solid ground with your boundary... .no suggestion on my part that you need to consider it further... .just wanted to make a general statement about boundaries for you and others.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, I think you are assuming that I want to stop communicating with my partner. Let's see, I'm going through a crisis with my daughter right now and he's helping me. My daughter's birthday is coming up and he's helping me. He's functioning as my partner and her stepfather. Taking a break right now would not be a good idea. I think that I'm really not doing a good job of communicating how important my partner is to me. That's why I posted about the idea of amnesty. Now would not be a good time to go solo.

Again, palla got it. My partner has been treating me like his wife. The problem is because he is still legally married to someone else I am having a problem. So I asked for the divorce papers. Perhaps they are in the box he sent to me today. We will see. I certainly hope so. I'm not sure if posting about this on this board is a good idea. I want to stay in my relationship. Going no contact is not a staying strategy. That's a leaving strategy.

I need to find a way to set a boundary that will not alienate my partner and that is what I am working on. I need him to help me get through this crisis with my daughter, her birthday, her schoolwork. He is indispensable to my life. That is why he is my partner. That is why I agreed to marry him in the first place. This wasn't just some random hookup.

[formflier]

 

OK... .so what does "take a break" from him mean to you... .? 

FF

[Turkish]

Going NC cold turkey doesn't sound like an option here, even if you wanted to do it. Take it from the Leaving Board, when used in a lot less strong relationships, NC often triggers the abandonment issues with a pwBPD. This can lead to emotional dysregulation, and all sorts of escalations and unpredictable behaviors. It's best to work out "leaving" and how to do it on Undecided, or later Leaving, if that happens.

For now, it's good to focus on the moment. This person is a huge part of your life, very connected. We all have a right to do what we want or have to do, but acting rashly isn't likely to yield anything positive. Stepping back and being Wisemind is better.

[Daniell85]

The poster she felt understood best basically said her fiancé has ended the relationship with his wife on all levels, except the legal level. So when he met unicorn, he was so far into the mindset of himself as a single man, that he didn't think to communicate the legal fact of his marriage to Unicorn. Further, in his mind, he feels Unicorn is his wife in spirit, in heart, and intention.

So from her fiancé's mindset, he was not planning to mislead her, so the intention is very important to Unicorn. He is not a liar and a deceiver, because it was not his intention to be one. As I am understanding, Unicorn feels this is the case and while she is very unhappy he is married and was not forthright with her, she believes him to be someone who's intention is to treat her with respect and integrity, though he seems to have gotten himself into a situation where it may appear to outsiders that he is not treating her with integrity.

I don't have very much to add. It's a difficult situation and one I would be pretty knocked down over.

[formflier]

  Stepping back and being Wisemind is better.

Agreed... .wholeheartedly.

What I believe we are doing... .is some contingency planning... .what ifs... .for when Friday shows up and there are no papers.

I think it wise to sort this through now with clearer heads... .rather than in the heat of the moment... .

Really... .I think we are defining what "taking a break"... .or enforcing a boundary about being in a r/s with someone that hasn't filed will look like.

It's clear that Unicorn wants to stay... .I fully support that... .

It's clear that Unicorn wants to stay IF there is a filing... .I fully support that.

What does "staying" look like if there is no filing?  Lots of wisemind to be applied here...

Last thought for now.

I'm not suggesting NC.  I'm suggesting that the only communication be about status of the filing.

Otherwise... .I am doubtful Unicorn's partner will understand that this is a big deal to her.

Thoughts?

FF

[KateCat]

My recommendation is that you be in no hurry... .spend time on here fleshing out ideas... .and with your therapist.

Can the Staying Board help you with some of your thoughts and ideas for the next phase? I know that pallavira stated that your decisions must be yours, and only yours, but I think she too mentioned the idea of time. Time and wisemind, as Turkish added. This situation seems to cry out for both.

ADDED: Well, this post is kind of redundant now due to two more nice offerings above, but I'll add it on anyway.

[unicorn2014]

The poster she felt understood best basically said her fiancé has ended the relationship with his wife on all levels, except the legal level. So when he met unicorn, he was so far into the mindset of himself as a single man, that he didn't think to communicate the legal fact of his marriage to Unicorn. Further, in his mind, he feels Unicorn is his wife in spirit, in heart, and intention.

So from her fiancé's mindset, he was not planning to mislead her, so the intention is very important to Unicorn. He is not a liar and a deceiver, because it was not his intention to be one. As I am understanding, Unicorn feels this is the case and while she is very unhappy he is married and was not forthright with her, she believes him to be someone who's intention is to treat her with respect and integrity, though he seems to have gotten himself into a situation where it may appear to outsiders that he is not treating her with integrity.

I don't have very much to add. It's a difficult situation and one I would be pretty knocked down over.

Daniell, yes! yes! yes! He does act like a husband in all respects to me except for legally which he is prevented from doing at this moment. I do intend to find out where he is at with the filing process on Friday but I want to take a soft approach and not a hard approach. This is going to be hard for me. I'm going to ask him for the papers and if he doesn't have them I'm going to tell him he has the rest of the day to tell me anything I might have withheld from me. Its also possible the papers are in the box he sent me which I should get before Friday. Then we will go from there.

[unicorn2014]

Going NC cold turkey doesn't sound like an option here, even if you wanted to do it. Take it from the Leaving Board, when used in a lot less strong relationships, NC often triggers the abandonment issues with a pwBPD. This can lead to emotional dysregulation, and all sorts of escalations and unpredictable behaviors. It's best to work out "leaving" and how to do it on Undecided, or later Leaving, if that happens.

For now, it's good to focus on the moment. This person is a huge part of your life, very connected. We all have a right to do what we want or have to do, but acting rashly isn't likely to yield anything positive. Stepping back and being Wisemind is better.

Turkish, Yes! I am really trying to apply wise mind. I took two years of DBT and have a DBT app on my phone. I still have all my DBT materials. I did not have DBT skills when I divorced my first husband, although I was in therapy and Al-Anon. I do have DBT skills now and I really don't want to mess this up. The way I divorced my first husband was very traumatic and I don't want to go through that again.

I'm going to ask for the papers on Friday, and if he doesn't have them, or they haven't been posted, or I haven't gotten them in the mail, I'm going to ask him if there's anything he's neglected to tell me. Then I don't know what I'm going to do. This is all new to me.

[unicorn2014]

Katecat, I agree, time and wise mind. My fiancé definitely knows how important this is to me. As I said to the other posters, if the papers have not come in the mail, or they have not posted to the internet, I will ask my partner if there's anything he's neglected to tell me and we will go from there. I really don't know how to do this so that's what I need help with.

[unicorn2014]

FF, My partner already knows this is a big deal to me. The thing is can I let this go? He's not living with me and he's not going to stay with me again, so what's really at stake here? Those are the questions I really have to answer. I'm not going to end the r/s over this, so I need to know how to live with it if there are no papers. My most recent therapist taught me about choosing what's important to hold on to, and what's important to let go of. I have to remind myself I'm not the one with the complicated legal situation, I'm free and clear.

[formflier]

Then I don't know what I'm going to do. This is all new to me.

Which is why we should kick this around now... .

This is not new to many of us on here... .

That doesn't mean that you hand over power to us... .these are all your decisions.

But... there is an order to the disorder... .and there are generally acceptable ways to go about enforcing a boundary that work... .and ways to go about enforcing a boundary that don't work and will make a situation worse.

Going "against the grain" is not likely to get you to a better place.

FF

[formflier]

FF, My partner already knows this is a big deal to me. 

There are two kinds of "knowing"

One... .a person can repeat something.  They "know" what to say.

There is another kind of knowing that represents value... .

For instance... .I do things for my wife... .that I don't particularly enjoy or want to do... .but I know they are a big deal for my wife.  I "know" it's a big deal to her.  I demonstrate that through my actions.

It's been three years... .if a divorce was a big deal to him... .there would be verifiable evidence of the divorce moving forward.  If he "knew" this was a big deal... .there would be something he could demonstrate to show that.

My 2 cents worth...

FF

[formflier]

  or I haven't gotten them in the mail, I'm going to ask him if there's anything he's neglected to tell me. Then I don't know what I'm going to do. This is all new to me.

Boy... .this just makes me uncomfortable.

It seems to be adding more "fuel" to the fire... .making things more complicated.

Every bone in my body says this "amnesty" idea is one that should be evaluated in the broader context of improving/repairing a r/s... and that evaluation should be done by professionals.

Case in point:  There have been times in my life where I was in no shape whatsoever to disclose intimate and personal details to my wife or to other people.

We have no way of knowing what is going on in your fiancee's head... .if he doesn't produce papers... .that will most likely be stressful. 

Putting him on the spot to cough up other information... .I think will only add more stress... .

You may be ready to hear it... .he may not be ready to say it. 

Tread very carefully here... .

FF