Had the Final Hearing Today

[Nope]

After nine months of excuses and continuances we finally had our day in court. In some ways it was anticlimactic. I spent a whole lot of time and energy working on our case. Inch and a half binders of exhibits were created and ultimately they didn't really get used. Most of the stuff was ironed out with the judge playing mediator and then entering agreed orders.

We've been having huge issues with arguments with uBPDm every time we've had to change court mandated call times. The kid's activity schedules would change, or something would come up, and DH would email her to work out an alternate call time for one call or a change to the schedule and uBPDm would lose her cool, not try at all to find a solution, be unwilling to accept DH's proposed solutions, and insist her access was being blocked and she was being bullied. So we wanted the order to say "reasonable phone contact". Well, come to find out that her work schedule is all over the place. Sometimes she works 12 hours, some times 4, and it changes radically from week to week. So, had she been able to communicate with DH and actually say that, it would have been clear that the call situation wasn't working for her either and that is why she was getting so frustrated. So reasonable phone contact was agreed between the parties.

Then the judge did something I didn't like. Something that I feel proves this judge doesn't "get it".Our other motion was for a show cause for not going to court ordered counseling. Our court order is a 20 page strongly-worded condemnation of uBPDm for her lying, inability to put the kid's needs over her own wants, and general neglect of the kids while they were in her care. This judge made it a point to say she read the whole thing, called uBPDm out on being a terrible mother, and said that she has six months to have her mental health counselor "clear her" (recommend that she is mentally healthy enough to not need counseling). The judge set a court date saying if the counselor hadn't cleared her by that court date she would throw uBPDm in jail.

So I feel like this judge didn't get that uBPDm has an illness and just thinks she's a jerk. And now the way counseling is set up it is doomed to fail at doing what it's supposed to accomplish because uBPDm now has an ax hanging over her head potentially forcing her to try to appear healthy and no decent therapist is going to let her go to jail and will certainly feel compelled to write that she has met whatever exactly "cleared" is supposed to mean. Which, of course, uBPDm will take to mean she's then just fine. *sigh* I also don't like that the judge went out of her way to attack uBPDm, not because what the judge was saying was untruthful, but because it isn't at all usefull.

I have been dealing with this woman's brand of crazy now for five years. She's put DH and I through the ringer on a regular basis in that time. But when uBPDm burst out of the courtroom crying I felt no joy. Just some anxiety and, honestly, like we hadn't actually been heard. But I guess I was stupidly carrying hope in my heart that being forced into counseling might set her on a path to maybe being a little bit better. The really strange part for me has been the empathy I feel. That confused me until a friend pointed out that it's likely that being pregnant has already altered my perception of the world. I'd heard that happens. I guess we'll see for sure if that's the case the next time she does something that would normally make me angry.

[ForeverDad]

Putting someone in jail if therapy fails is not a solution.  The law may include fines or jail but it seldom ever happens.  And probably not for flunking therapy.  And she has a baby.  Maybe this was to give her incentive, to shock her enough (tough love, clear consequences) to get her motivated?  Court doesn't generally try very hard to change the parents, it deals with them as they are.  You know, the old "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".  And fixed in 6 months?  When it's been an issue for umpteen years if not her whole life?  You can't put a timetable on therapy so probably the judge will accept some level of progress.

I agree, requiring success in 6 months opens another can of worms that risks the judge relying on a therapist who reports "she's okay now" and then relaxing other parts of the order.  Was that "or else jail" just a verbal admonition or written into the judge's ruling?

I think the theme has to be that DH doesn't want the order to allow her to jerk him around whenever the mood strikes her.  All he needs is the order to give him sufficient discretion to tell her No or Wait according to the circumstances.

[Nope]

No, the impression we got was that this judge fully means to throw her in jail in six months if she isn't satisfied. We haven't seen a copy of the written order because we'd probably have to specifically request it. The judge told DH that he doesn't have to show up. It's between uBPDm and the judicial system now.

This judge is younger than me and has only been on the bench for a year. Prior to this she worked as a lawyer in the prosecutor's office. She doesn't appear to have any Family Law background to speak of.

When CS was recalculated it ended up being doubled. (Still peanuts.) When this happened her L asked the judge to give her the tax credit for one of the kids. uBPDm's contribution to the kid's expenses is only 17% and they live with DH. She is supposed to have one weekend a month in our state but has never come to see them here in 2.5 years. The judge could have simply said giving her the exemption wouldn't be equitable. Instead she looked at uBPDm and disdainfully said "How much do you see your kids? No." And then moved on.

What I warned DH about is exactly what you said. That she will file for more visitation to be heard the same day as this other thing. She will show up with a piece of paper, claim she's fine, and then demand more summer visitation. In which case we'll need to drag the kids counselors in to explain that whether a counselor has cleared her or not, the kids aren't cleared to be with her for long periods of time.

Since she so obviously doesn't want to come back down here it would have been more helpful for the court to have let her get away with not going. She probably wouldn't ever come back and the counseling she does get will now likely be useless. We will now be waiting to see if BM strikes back as us instead of being done with this.

[formflier]

Well, you have 6 months to prepare.  Hopefully you can get your lawyer to argue... .file something... .that says continued family T is important to everyone AND that accountability is critical.  How many appointments have been attended, missed... .etc etc.

Here is the thing, if she doesn't get a paper that clears her... .it will be interesting to see if she goes to jail.  Perhaps in the big picture that would be a good thing.

If she does get a piece of paper, likely you will have to spend some time and money challenging it, or at least making sure the judge sees it in the proper light.

FF

[Nope]

I get the feeling there is nothing we can do or say that this particular judge won't see as just trying to get revenge on her. The judge told DH that the issue is between uBPDm and the court now and that he didn't need to be at the next hearing. We got an email from our L saying her services to us for the case are concluded since there is nothing on the docket for us anymore. Of course, DH will still be there.

We are up in the air about what to do. The kids will both be teens by then. The need to protect them from her harm is being slowly replaced by the need to give them opportunities to learn how to navigate dealing with her. The situations that really concerned us are much less of an issue since she began her current relationship two years ago. DH is more inclined to see how spring break goes and then maybe (provided she does what the judge wants) give her the kids for four weeks of summer instead of the two he gave her last year.

[formflier]

Hey... .the one thing that jumped out at me is the L telling you the relationship is over.

Had you guys discussed this prior to the L sending the email?

My suggestion, YOU know, even if L and judge and others don't... .but YOU know that issues will continue and this is NOT "over". 

Legally speaking you are better to have a L "out in front" trying in keep things from "coming up" ... .rather than and L getting hired to "clean up the mess".

Much much much wiser to spend L money keeping a mess smaller (likely) or not happening at all (not likely pwBPD seem quite wiley in creating trouble)

I would retain the attorney... .or if dissatisfied... .retain another,  to stay abreast of the case and let you know before things happen in court... .if you have standing (legally speaking) to be part of if.

If it is unclear if you have "standing"... .hopefully they can file motions and such to create clarity.

I know what the judge said about it being between the court and the ex... .but since there are shared children... .and the mental competency of a parent is relevant, I would certainly think you should have standing to stay involved.

Thoughts?  Were you happy with your attorney?

FF

[Nope]

Yes, the L always ends her services after everything is done. She feels it keeps things clear and clean. Especially since she is nearing retirement. This is the second time we have hired her. She isn't who I would want for a very complicated case, but she served us well with me doing most of the leg work and she is very careful about how she spends our money, which I really appreciate.

We got some email correspondence from uBPDm this past weekend. If I'm reading between the lines correctly, she is not planning to pay the unreimbursed medical expenses she agreed to pay in court (we have the agreement in writing in the judgement) but she is terrified we'll drag her back into court if she doesn't pay, so she's threatening to bring us back to court, making up something she thinks DH can be found in contempt for if they go back. If any of that makes sense. I'm sure her L told her that if she doesn't pay it and we take her back it's a pretty automatic ten days in jail.

The whole email was completely full of anxiety and demands for control and if I step back and see it for what it is I can see we aren't likely to need a lawyer to stay out front for us. Since we have an exact amount in the judgement we can take the judgement to DCSE for enforcement by them. She'll be enraged that she'll actually have to pay it, but she'll be relieved to know we are done with her for now.

[Panda39]

The whole email was completely full of anxiety and demands for control... .

Sounds like a post court extinction burst. 

[formflier]

The "issue" I would want your lawyer out in front on is to evaluate and be present for whatever paper about counseling and "being cleared" says... .and how the court reacts to that

Rather than "responding" to how the court reacts to that... .I would rather your L be there and "suggest" to the court how they should react... .based on (whatever the lawyer determines).

Ultimately tying this back to what is best for the child.

Make sense?

On the bill they are not going to pay... .I would mention it again until the deadline to pay.  Then have the L send demand letter saying pay by this date or back to court (or whatever other procedure the L recommends)...

FF

[Nope]

Sounds like a post court extinction burst. 

That's a good point. Our responses have addressed the accusations but been pretty unconcerned. Then we've gotten multiple emails over a ten minute period addressing the same subject. She is clearly in full meltdown mode. Probably aught to stop feeding the beast all together.

FF - They have a weird way of doing things around here where Contempt is treated like a quasi-criminal issue instead of civil. Particularly with a judge who believes mental health is just an excuse and whose only interest is having uBPDm cure the Contempt. DH will go see what paperwork she produces. But this judge has proven to not be inclined to listen to anyone. DH and any L with him would be treated as a third party in the room and not as a plaintiff. If we want more say in the proceedings then we would need uBPDm to file a motion regarding her summer visitation because that gives DH a horse in the race and a reason for the judge to listen. But frankly, I'd rather she didn't because if she doesn't do it then I don't see her actually coming back to court to do it later. We live several states away and she is not high functioning. The current order only gives her summer visitation at DH's discretion.

We aren't concerned about the unpaid bills. DCFE already stated that they will treat the amount owed like child support and use the same wage garnishment​ and enforcement procedures. It's a win-win. DH will eventually get the money because CS is already pulled direct from her paycheck, so it'll be tacked on and it's not like she can hide. Our only other recourse would have been, as uBPDx fears, for DH to bring the issue back to court in which case she would be thrown in jail. I think she feels like DH wants to throw her in jail and that's fueling some of the crazy right now.

[formflier]

She is clearly in full meltdown mode. Probably aught to stop feeding the beast all together.

Obviously document all of this for the record.

So, does your pwBPD have any custody or visitation at all?

FF

[Nope]

She is doing all of this through Our Family Wizard, since DH brought in her log in history to prove she hasn't logged in more than a couple of times in the last two years, despite the court order that this is where the kid's schedules are supposed to be posted. The judge made it clear she was not impressed with uBPDx just for that. So now uBPDx wants to look like she is using it appropriately. *eyeroll*

She gets the kids every other spring break, winter break, and Thanksgiving break, and then whatever summer time DH approves, which was two weeks last year. He gave her two weeks because obviously the original judge didn't have a problem with her having the kids for shorter periods of time, but recognized that she tends to be alienating and do emotional damage over longer periods of time. "The children's needs were never part of her thought process." (Yes, that sentence is in the order.) She also gets one long weekend a month in our area that she can have the kids, but has never once exercised that visitation in two and a half years. This judge called her out on that as well.

Most people would go crawl under a rock after an experience like that in court. But not uBPDm. She has to try and fill everyone around her with the anxiety she is now feeling.

[formflier]

Big picture:  I think you guys are in a really good position.

My concern at the moment is something she has to turn into the court to "prove" her mental stability/compliance... .and you guys aren't going to be represented.

What does your L think about that? 

FF

[Nope]

This judge isn't looking for her to "prove" her mental stability. This judge is looking for her to follow the order and report back as a form of punishment. It's quite clear that the judge thinks she's just a deadbeat parent. If anything, the judge appears to think that six months of counseling will cause her to act more responsibly. Our lawyer said it's not treated as something we need to be represented for because we aren't party to the action, but we can show up.

Something L&L said on another thread sticks out for me though. I'll probably have to post to the co-parenting board. But what it comes down to is that DH was planning on giving her summer visitation in August after this upcoming court date. But what if we are making the wrong assumption that she'll show up and placate the judge?

[formflier]

My gut on this is that you should have your L show up... .just to see.  Perhaps have the "summer vacation" visit scheduled for after the report.

If she flubs the report (messes it up)... .perhaps that would be a reason to ask the judge to cancel the visit or amend how the vacation scheduling is supposed to go.

I get it that you aren't "party" to the issue... .but you are interested... .and I think having someone there is good for "your side".

It's good the judge sees things as they are... .you job is to keep it that way.

Certainly if the pwBPD has some genuine change... .that's great!  You need to be very interested in whether or not it is genuine.

FF

[Nope]

Well, we sent her an email regarding summer visitation being contingent on the finding in August. She sent back a very self-satisfied email saying there will be no hearing date because there will be no counseling, as the judge said that she only had to attend counseling if needed and she has a letter for the court from a place where she was evaluated saying that she is fine and does not need counseling. She will be sending this letter to her lawyer who will file the paperwork to have the hearing canceled.

Do I know if her lawyer can just simply have the hearing canceled or not? No. I've got the question in to our L right now. Am I surprised that she found some hack of a T to clear her? No. Particularly when the judge said she didn't have to give the T a copy of the counseling order. In hind sight it appears she was pretty well set up to ultimately get away with not going. The court's finding was "Facts sufficient to find guilt but with-holding a finding" with a date to return to court. This is hand written in the "Other" category.

The good news is that she was so cocky about the letter that she wrote in her email to DH that she would be glad to send him a copy of the counselor's letter if he wished. So we responded with "Yes, please." And now what do we hear? Crickets.

[Catsmother]

Sorry to hear that she seems to have got around the system on a technicality. At least DH can restrict the time to two weeks. Hopefully your lawyer can give you some clarification about the hearing. All the best to you, DH and the kids.

[livednlearned]

This judge isn't looking for her to "prove" her mental stability. This judge is looking for her to follow the order and report back as a form of punishment. It's quite clear that the judge thinks she's just a deadbeat parent.

This is the kind of thing that started to happen in my case, too, Nope. After a few years, I realized that the judge and N/BPDx were in the ring. I was the spectator.

If that's what is happening in your case, I wonder if you can file a motion to compel a hearing over this issue? Just to make sure that the judge is aware that biomom is shirking the order thru a loophole.

My ex was ordered to get counseling for anger management and substance abuse, and get a MMPI-2 from a forensic investigator. We live in an area with three major universities and a lot of psychiatrists, yet N/BPDx claimed he could not get a fair evaluation or confidential counseling because my SO works in a hospital <roll eyes>

Non-compliance meant no visitation for N/BPDx, which is good in one sense because the nonsense goes away. But like you mentioned, it also strips out the BPD parent and that's a whole other loss for the child/ren to deal with.

Your situation is tough because it seems you are in a position to make this decision, and it's not an easy one.

[formflier]

I agree... .push hard for hearing soon and file "something" at the hearing saying we want (or we suggest the court wants )  MMPI  PAI... etc etc.  Perhaps even state that until there is a "valid profile" on those tests... .they won't be consdiered.

A bit outside my lane here... .but people that "game them" sometimes will not produce a "valid profile"

Also that the evaluator have access to the court file and justice file for review "prior" to seeing your ex.

In other words... spell it out for them.

FF

[Nope]

L&L - Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like this judge was willing to fight with her. More like she knew she couldn't change her and was just looking for the whole thing to go away. I guess it was a case of the judge being unable to see any harm to the kids, so it didn't matter.

Also that the evaluator have access to the court file and justice file for review "prior" to seeing your ex.

This is actually how we know the judge essentially doesn't believe she's mentally ill and intended for her to get away with not going. We asked upfront that the order state that the counselor be given, at minimum, the original order requiring the counseling (because a mental health professional reading the finding would never think uBPD was fine) and we were told sternly by the judge that uBPD could give or not give the counselor whatever she saw fit.

We asked our L if we should file a motion to fight this and she said that given this particular judge there would be no point and a waste of our money because she's been in front of this judge enough to know that letting uBPD off the hook was always the point. Her L actually said at the hearing that his client was under the impression from her one intitial meeting with the counselor that no counseling would be needed. So the judge knew this was coming. Might also be the reason the judge believes she isn't mentally ill and is just a jerk.

Our L said that when she talked to her L he said that he will be filing a motion soon to amend the custody order to give uBPD specific summer visitation. Our L said our money is better spent fighting that. Or at least fighting to limit what the judge ultimately gives her.

[livednlearned]

Ugh. More motions, more hearings, more orders.

I'm so sorry.

Will the proposed motion be heard in front of the same judge?

[formflier]

Yep... .so the point of the motion is to put "on the record" that you guys disagree with the judge... .or believe he made an error.  It may not make a difference with this judge... .but may matter for future ones.

And... .a judges response after you properly allege that he erred... .builds grounds for getting a new judge.

In other words... .you may continue to loose this battle with this judge... .your L needs to guide you to continue to be in a position to win the war... .or at least protect the gains you have made.

Big picture:  You are in a good strategic position... .I don't want inaction to potentially compromise your position.

It's not about her and her counselor... it's about you maintaining good legal position for the benefit of your child.

That your ex gets better or not is a sideshow.

FF

[Nope]

Ugh. More motions, more hearings, more orders.

I'm so sorry.

Will the proposed motion be heard in front of the same judge?

If her L can get that, I'm sure he will. I got the impression her L has a good relationship with this judge. This judge was younger than me, and both the judge and uBPD's L worked out of the prosecutors office originally, though I don't know if they did at the same time or not. DH saw her L at the local grocery store about a week ago. He was vaping while grocer shopping. *eyeroll* Sometimes this town seems really too small.

A small part of me wonders if she can hold it together well enough to do this? Back when we were going to court in her state our L insisted DH be at every. single. hearing. Even the ones he wasn't required to be at so that he could make sure the judge understood just how serious he was about what he wanted. It was so difficult keeping on top of everything, paying for everything, and pushing the process forward from three states away. Meanwhile, all she had to do to keep the status quo was pretty much nothing. Continuances and obstruction while nothing changed made us want to give up so often. And you better believe we aren't going to go rushing into court to make this easy on her.  

[Nope]

FF-

Actually, we'll be bringing up the judge's error when the motion to amend the custody order goes to trial. Her stated reason for why the order should get more summer visitation is because she was found not to need counseling. The first thing we intend to bring up is the fact that the counselor wasn't given all of the facts.

You are 100% right that the uBPD getting better or not is a side show. That was our big mistake. Had we never taken her to court for contempt for not going to counseling in the first place she would have still not gone and not gotten a letter saying she's fine. So we could still use her failure to comply as grounds for why she shouldn't get any extended summer visitation. Instead we shot ourselves in the foot by even giving a judge a chance to give her a way out. We assumed, wrongly, that after 2.5 years of non-compliance a judge would do something other than yell at her and then give her an easy way out. We aren't going to make that mistake again. The game is clearly played differently depending on where you are. The judge in her old county "got it". This judge in our county clearly doesn't get it. If we aren't very careful going forward certain kinds of pro-activity on our part is just going to lose us more ground.

[formflier]

If we aren't very careful going forward certain kinds of pro-activity on our part is just going to lose us more ground.

Ummm... how is it going to lose you ground?  I get it a judge may not particular like being challenged... .but Ls know how to do that in a respectful way.

They can translate "Counselor didn't have all the facts therefore the letter is not any good.  "

"Judge, I'm sure you would agree that those making judgments need to have all the facts... ."

The small town things sucks... .or is wonderful, depending on if you are an insider or outsider.

I've got a fairly big legal issue in a small town where I am an outsider.  I grew up in small town... .so I "get it". 

I've got some outsider "city slicker" attorneys hired that are running circles around the locals.  The judge keeps ruling in the locals favor until we frame issues in a way that it's obvious we are setting it up for further review or visibility.  There is only one judge there... .but he has a reputation to protect as well as local relationships to protect.  When you force the choice... .judges will usually protect their reputation. 

That really can't be your opening position but after several rounds you can go back and point out how higher courts of ruled and compare to the local.

Basically when we pointed out the absurdity of some of the locals legal arguments and "forced" the judge to agree... .things moved forward. 

Persistence is key.  How long until the trial.

FF

[livednlearned]

If we aren't very careful going forward certain kinds of pro-activity on our part is just going to lose us more ground.

That makes a lot of sense given your situation. I would do the same since you are (relatively) ok with the status quo at the moment and technically have the upper hand, altho I know it probably doesn't feel that way.

Sometimes it is better to wait and let them or their lawyers make a move.

The kind of judge you have can make all the difference.