My biggest fear :)

[allibaba]

For years and years and years my husband would threaten my dogs when he became dyregulated he would threaten my dogs because he knew that that was the one thing that would really get me going - threaten to give them away, threaten to allow them to run away, threaten to not let me feed them, threaten to hurt them, threaten to make them stay outside in the freezing cold.  Once he tied one of them to a tree on our property and told me that he had taken her to the pound.  Yes, I realize that all of this is considered domestic abuse and I have safety procedures in place to ensure my safety and the safety of my son.

We seemed to have moved past that for the most part.  We have 4 dogs total.  The biggest is 165 lb and he is very high maintenance.  He is emotional and very tied to my husband.  The next dog is my rescue and she is easy and she and I are very close.

We leave the high maintenance dog on a screened in porch during the day.  Well unfortunately today there were bad thunder storms and the big boy freaked out and chewed on the door. 

My husband called me while I was in a meeting at work.  I silenced it.  He called again.  I excused myself because it must be an emergency. 

He was screaming at me.  Told me that he almost killed our dog because me (a stupid ********* ****** put him outside during a thunder storm and told me not to come home.  I hung up the phone and calmly went back to the meeting.  He called two more times and I silenced it and turned off the phone (sheesh I was sitting with the executives and owners of my company and I was supposed to be running the meeting).

For avoidance of doubt, he did not almost kill our dog.  He seems to have a flair for the dramatic to get a rise out of me. 

He then sent me the following message

"[Dog 1 and Dog 2] are out... . AS we are unable to manage our responsibilities we will go back to the original two... . maybe if you ever grow up we can get another... . if things still do not work then [Dog 3 - also my dog] will go... . etc... . etc."

So his dog is high maintenance and frankly if he had been inside, he probably would have eaten the couch... . so damage done... . no big deal.  I do 100% of the care for the dogs - walks, runs, feeding, vet appt, brushing.

My line is if the dogs go - I GO.  Period.  End of story.

Oh and we finally have a great fence going up in the next few weeks to allow them to spend more time outside safely. 

So what do I do folks.  Do I go home?  Do I respond?  I'm kind of at a loss.  The thing that crippled me for so long has happened.

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[allibaba]

I would like to send him a message to basically say that the dogs aren't going anywhere.  I'm sure that that would go over like a ton of lead bricks.

I am calm but I have to say that I spent from Thursday to last night sick from the stress of the last episode.

I don't believe that my dogs are in any real danger.  If I did I would call the police and officially check out of this marriage because that would be the straw that broke this camel's back.

[Grey Kitty]

The biggest is 165 lb and he is very high maintenance.  He is emotional and very tied to my husband. 

Poor dog, looking for an emotional lead from your H   No wonder he is high maintenance!

So what do I do folks.  Do I go home?  Do I respond?  I'm kind of at a loss. 

When you say your boundary is if the dogs go, you go, you sound 100% certain. Is that right?

Also, does your H know this?

The thing that crippled me for so long has happened.

No, it hasn't happened. He's just threatened again.

Take a deep breath. Several of them.

Can you let go of some of the anger/fear, and think about what he's going through that you might be able to validate (assuming he has wound down from screaming by the time you talk to him).

FYI, you don't have to tell him the dogs aren't going anywhere. He already knows that. Just like he knows that he can use them to get your goat.

 GK

[allibaba]

Hi Grey Kitty,

Yup - The dog gets his emotional strength from my husband (he needs to learn not to be enmeshed).  LOL

Yes, it is correct.  I have been bullied about the dogs to the point that I will not tolerate being told that they go. I have told my husband that they are family to me.  Frankly they are to him as well.

Ha ha.  You are correct.  Its just a threat.  I will work on letting go of the anger/ fear before I get home.  :)og damage is a trigger for him and its mid week and he's already tender mid-week.  He also takes a shot for his rheumatoid on tuesday as well as some other strong meds... . so he's probably stressed already.  

Thanks for the support Grey Kitty.  Rebalancing here.  I have an hr drive to get calm.  FYI I did not respond to his message.

[allibaba]

I have calmed down and am now very much looking forward to the arrival of my uBPD mom on sunday.  Several yrs of painful boundary work have resulted in her being quite the support.

Husband still claims that I need to find the dogs homes or he will.  Nope.  He can say it but this is a serious boundary.  I have 4

Drug use

Affairs

Violent behavior toward our toddler

Getting rid of any of our dogs

Those are my deal breaker boundaries

I told him quietly that I will not be finding them homes... . to which he said then he will leave.  If I had a dollar for every time he threatened to leave me... . I could at least buy dinner in a fancy restaurant.

[patientandclear]

Allibaba -- I'm sorry.  I had a threaten-to-abandon-the-dog dynamic with my not-BPD-but-still-very-messed-up exH, too.

When you answered Grey Kitty, you said both that threatening to give up the dogs (or otherwise threatening the dogs) is not acceptable to you; and then you said actually abandoning/harming is the line, and threats are just that -- seemingly, on the side of the line that you will tolerate.

I'm trying to understand which it is -- are you willing to live with him threatening, as long as he doesn't take the action?

I think that would be clarifying.

[waverider]

The thing about boundaries is they are clear cut. If he crosses them you enact them. If he stands in front of the boundary beating his chest and making threats, you dont respond. He is testing the boundaries and trying to make the edges a bit blurry.

The good thing about clear boundaries is it gives you a clear area where you dont have to wonder what should I do?

[allibaba]

When you answered Grey Kitty, you said both that threatening to give up the dogs (or otherwise threatening the dogs) is not acceptable to you; and then you said actually abandoning/harming is the line, and threats are just that -- seemingly, on the side of the line that you will tolerate.

Yes I realized that I stated sitting on 2 different sides of this boundary.  The reality as of today is that I will tolerate the threats (just constantly responding NO) but not any action towards getting rid of the dogs or hurting them.  I wonder though after a month of dyregulation after dyregulation... . I wonder if its time to move the boundary?

He started in again this morning.  Berating me.  Said that the big dog needs to be chained in the woods today (uh NO!).  I walked away, walked away, walked away and he followed.  When I went outside he told me that I should be doing housework not garden work and that he was going to rip every plant out of the ground.  He told me that I clearly have a mental disability and it is clear that I cannot handle everything that I have taken on (dogs, house, job, him) and then he started in on how he cannot believe that my piece of s*** mother is on her way at the end of the week.  He started in on my brother and his family (they took on way too much - 6 kids, full time jobs, and their kids have suffered).  I don't have a mental disability (though I am forgetful).  I graduated at the top of my class, with honors, from one of the top schools in the US.  I graduated in 3 yrs with double majors and a minor.  These words couldn't be farther from the truth.  With the job that I cannot handle, I do well and I financially support our family. 

He threw a basket of clean laundry all over the living room and told me that since I am not meeting since needs that I have been warned that he is going to go find a girlfriend. 

He said that I have 1 week to find the dogs new homes and then they will be gone.

Today I really can't remember why I put up with this.  He's a good father but that is mitigated by his complete lack of consistency with our son.  He contributes well to the house (again the half of the week that he isn't insane).  The minimum wage job is getting under his skin at the moment.

He said that all he wants is to live an exciting life and feel connected to me.  Man am I trying to connect but when he's constantly rocking the boat - its hard.  He's an adrenaline junkie but he's got diabetes and rheumatoid.  He can't live the lifestyle he wants to live... . his body can't take it and I can't manage the house in a manner consistent with his required organization if I am out socializing all the time.  He wants to be able to spend money but I really just don't have it (unless I wanted to drain our savings completely).

What have I done wrong?  Do I need to firm up my boundaries?  He has needs that aren't being met (he really doesn't feel connected with me)... . what else do I do?  What is it time to throw in the towel?

[waverider]

To be honest leave the boundary about the dogs as it is, keep it simple.

Its not time to move the boundary, it is time for a new boundary about abusive and insulting behavior. Dont make it topic specific or he will work around it. Threats, abuse and personal insults period. Think of how you can effectively define and action this potential boundary

[allibaba]

So I went back to the topic where I started enforcing boundaries around verbal abuse and looked at what I started with:

Husband - I am not comfortable with the way that certain conversations that we have go.  If you call me a "stupid f idiot" or any other crass variation then unfortunately I will have to leave the conversation.  I know that I adore you and I believe that these types of conversations are not good for either of us.  If I am in the middle of preparing a meal for you then meal prep will just stop and you will have to find an alternative.

So basically my boundary was too limited.  We used to have the majority of our exchanges like this while we were either eating or I was preparing food... . he realized that was a bad idea and has expanded his territory.

it is time for a new boundary about abusive and insulting behavior. Dont make it topic specific or he will work around it. Threats, abuse and personal insults period. Think of how you can effectively define and action this potential boundary

Boundary:  I am not comfortable with threats, abuse, personal insults.

I went to the lesson

Boundaries Tools of Respect

I have amended it to suit:

If you start threatening me, becoming abusive, or insulting me personally while we are discussing issues at home or with our relationship, I’ll let you know that I am no longer comfortable with the tone of the conversation. If you continue, I’ll excuse myself and will not wish to speak with you for two days, to take care of myself.

Boundary is that if he continues with a tone that I have stated in unacceptable then I'll cut off contact for 2 days.  Is there a better action?  Physically removing myself from the situation is not working.

I think that I also need to be prepared for the possibility that I am the wrong person for my husband.  He is very organized.  Lack of organization actually manifests in physical anxiety for him (I believe that is why the therapist said that he is OCD).  He likes living in the fast lane.  I would be quite happy with a handful of friends and a few hobbies and my dogs.

[waverider]

Sounds good, if you think NC is feasible then it provides that non negotiable break around the boundary.

I find boundaries a lot easier to implement when it is clear cut, as in not just the next step in a rising argument. I tend to let things wash without issue until the boundary is hit. That way the "line in the sand" is obvious and there is no delusion about what it is about. Acting the boundary then is more from a controlled position rather than a position of retreating.

It is also good to keep in mind that sometimes people are incompatable. Clashes are not always due to a disorder, sometimes its just simple personality clashes. Not everything can be blamed on BPD

[Rockylove]

I don't have a mental disability (though I am forgetful).  I graduated at the top of my class, with honors, from one of the top schools in the US.  I graduated in 3 yrs with double majors and a minor.  These words couldn't be farther from the truth.  With the job that I cannot handle, I do well and I financially support our family. 

 You're intelligent, accomplished and competent.  These are things that he most likely finds very attractive in you and rightfully so!  Not many people can say that about themselves.

The minimum wage job is getting under his skin at the moment.

He has the minimum wage job?  If so, I believe this is the male ego feeling very sorry for himself.  Think about what you said you've accomplished and then think of how it would make you feel if you were in a world where the man is supposed to be the head of the household.  For thousands of years, men were expected to provide for the family.  I know that doesn't excuse the verbal attack on you, but it could explain why he's feeling the need to knock you off your pedestal.  

What have I done wrong?  Do I need to firm up my boundaries?  He has needs that aren't being met (he really doesn't feel connected with me)... . what else do I do?  What is it time to throw in the towel?

I can only suggest things that have worked for me.  When my H starts in on me about not being able to take care of myself and never had to because I always had a husband, etc. (which is not entirely true) I know it's him stressing over not having a job and feeling inadequate.  It's difficult to validate when there's just so much garbage being tossed, but validating what parts of his spewing that I can helps calm him enough to stop the rage.  Then later on have a conversation about the feelings that he's having.  

I'd say that firming your boundaries is a great start.  Ask him questions and genuinely listen to the answers.  Find out what he feels would make you two more connected.  He may make unreasonable requests or he may just surprise you!  

[allibaba]

I don't have a mental disability (though I am forgetful).  I graduated at the top of my class, with honors, from one of the top schools in the US.  I graduated in 3 yrs with double majors and a minor.  These words couldn't be farther from the truth.  With the job that I cannot handle, I do well and I financially support our family. 

 You're intelligent, accomplished and competent.  These are things that he most likely finds very attractive in you and rightfully so!  Not many people can say that about themselves.

The irony is that my friends say that he brags and brags and brags about how proud he is of my accomplishments.  I think that his current black hole relates to feeling so incredibly insecure about his career.  You are correct.  The job market in our city is bad at the moment.  To add insult to injury, we are from a different country and its hard to get established in this market.  Frankly I got lucky finding the job that I did and I protect it like CRAZY (boundaries around him interfering with my work).

I have been very "WHATEVER" about his work.  I have been super supportive of the minimum wage job... . he's doing landscaping on a golf course.  While the pay isn't great... . its actually a very intense job that suits his OCD perfectly.  He keeps saying that he needs to find something better after the season is over.  Perhaps I need to participate and support better in this area.

Sounds good, if you think NC is feasible then it provides that non negotiable break around the boundary.

I find boundaries a lot easier to implement when it is clear cut, as in not just the next step in a rising argument. I tend to let things wash without issue until the boundary is hit. That way the "line in the sand" is obvious and there is no delusion about what it is about. Acting the boundary then is more from a controlled position rather than a position of retreating.

It is also good to keep in mind that sometimes people are incompatable. Clashes are not always due to a disorder, sometimes its just simple personality clashes. Not everything can be blamed on BPD

I'm not sure NC is feasible.  We live together, we have a son together, we have to make decisions together.  I have been using GOING OUTSIDE as my action... . this morning he followed me.  I have a young son, I really can't leave the property.  I have tried locked doors but he breaks the door down (or at least he has in the past).  Any other ideas?

I don't have any issue with leaving things until the boundary gets hit.  That's what I usually do.

As for compatibility, he keeps attacking WHO I AM.  The irony is that I'm actually pretty organized these days but with his OCD its never enough.  I also do not want to be his DISNEY CRUISE DIRECTOR... . if he wants to go out and socialize all the time I am totally happy to do it but when I plan things he constantly bails and I look silly to our friends.  Its not my responsibility to plan his social life for him.

[waverider]

What I have seen of OCD and OCD type behaviors they can often only cope with the basic repetitive jobs, anything more complex overwhelms them and creates too much pressure, often creating dictator type behavior. After all better paid jobs are that way because of ability to handle pressure.

As a perfectly normal self confident male I had trouble with my previous marriage when I was the lower paid looking after the kids. Not my self confidence but rather the unspoken attitude from everyone else. If I was insecure by nature it would have been devastating.

I too always found disengaging without physically leaving a negative experience. Silent treatment certainly does not work. So is there anyway you can effectively disengage? Go visit someone? Care needs to be taken not to inadvertently drag your son into the equation. I had this issue too. It really does leave you feeling trapped, which in turn breeds resentment

[briefcase]

Remember that your boundaries are about protecting you - not punishing him.  Is 2 days no contact with him (even if feasible) really about protecting yourself, or is it about teaching him something?

Boundary "enforcement" is really about allowing him to feel the natural consequences of his behaviors.  People who go into a rage over minor things and kick down doors generally find themselves home alone for at least some period of time.  So, you might need to leave with your child for a while the next time he rages.  It's tougher with children involved, but you still need to have real boundaries.

It's also helpful if you take a time out by telling him that you need to take some time away until things calm down and that you and your child will be back in some specific amount of time (1 hour, 3 hours, etc.).  Then come home at the time you said and see if things are more calm.  

[allibaba]

Thanks Briefcase.  I do understand that this isn't about punishing him.  I was trying to identify a way to protect myself because things do get a bit hairy at my house and 3 hrs often isn't enough time for things to calm down.  I got the two days from the boundary link that I posted before.

Unfortunately things got out of control at my house tonight and I am writing this post from my little room at a domestic violence shelter.   :'(

He came home again in a rage saying that I had stolen his tax return.  Now he owed money this year and I support him so that's crap.  I didn't want him to feel bad so I didn't mention that he owed taxes... . I filed and paid them (my bad).  Then he started in that I had to fire the housekeeper on the spot.  I refused as I have been pulling the majority of the weight in our house and I don't want to anymore.  I make the money and it should be ok for me to have someone come in twice a month.  My husband didn't see it this way.  He started to berate me and I walked away.  I had my son in my arms.  He said "don't you f walk away from me while I am talking to you or I will [insert very specific physical harm threat].  As soon as he said that -- I knew that I had to keep walking.  He yelled that he had my keys, my wallet and my cell phone and that he was taking my car to his girlfriend's house (he doesn't have a girlfriend).  He disconnected the battery to his truck and told me that if I tried to drive it that it would blow up.  He left in a rage with all my stuff.  He came back 15 min later and since the housekeeper was still there he went out back.  I paid her and realized that I had a spare car key hidden (he had locked my car with my wallet in it).  I jumped in the car and left with him throwing things at the car.  I cannot imagine what damage has been done to my stuff and I am soo worried about the dogs. 

He sent me a message saying that I had 30 min to return or he would report me to the police for kidnapping.  How dare I take his son.  I got the message probably 90 min later and he said that my dogs are gone - oh well - and that he has called the police and now I am f.  I responded once I got it that "we are safe.  That I wasn't comfortable at home and that you will see your son very soon."  Once i get settled in here, I sent a message that said that I love him very much and I will spend the night out but that his son would be at daycare tomorrow and I will be at work if he needed either of us.

I am so so so tired.  Thanks for the support.  It was because of you guys that I didn't hesitate in getting out of there.  I read a posting this morning about false allegations of abuse for men and that the only way that domestic violence situations escalate is if you are present to allow them to escalate.  This was sensible advise and it was providence that I happened to read it this morning.

[waverider]

 

Sorry to hear this. Some time out now is in order. Escalations like this tend to keep rising unless he seriously accepts how out of order he was. It should not be simply swept under the carpet once he calms down. Next time you may not have spare keys and it could get physical.

It is a good example of why there needs to be an an emergency escape plan. To have been trapped there would have been horrible.

So how does this fit in with your boundaries and response to them

[allibaba]

Hi Waverider,

I guess that I have to rethink my escape plan (have purse in my car, grab phone and keys).  I normally carry the keys around if he's dyregulated.  In this case, I was really surprised that he acted out because the housekeeper was in the house.  I was unprepared!

If I didn't have the spare key, I would have walked to the neighbor's house.  As long as it isn't 40 below zero I would have been ok.

Threatening me/ demanding that I immediately fire the housekeeper/ behaving badly in front of our son crosses all sorts of boundaries.  I have let him know that I am not coming home tonight because I am frightened.  I am here at the shelter to protect myself.  I should be able to feel physically safe in my own home.

I have to say that the shelter staff were amazing.  I carefully explained that being at home was exposing me to danger but that I did not overall feel endangered in my relationship.  I told them that this wasn't the end of my relationship but rather a necessary step.  They didn't seem to judge.

I'm pretty tired but does that answer your boundary question or not?

[allibaba]

I am VERY worried about my little rescue dog (she's actually 95 lb).  Other than my son, she is the joy of my life.  My husband knows this and he has sent me 4 messages telling me that she is missing.  How she would have run away... . I don't know.  I hope that its just a ploy to get me home.  I should have taken her with me but I didn't have time. 

If she ran away then she's probably just hiding in the woods waiting for me to get home.  I hope not.  I hope that she is safely inside the house with my husband.  My entire gut is telling me to get in the car, drive the 30 min home and go looking for her.  I hope that its a manipulation on his part.  She has never run away for more than 5 min at a time

Say a few prayers/ good vibes for her... . and for me.

[waverider]

Does he know what your boundary is if anything happens to the dogs, even if he makes it out as not his fault?

[Grey Kitty]

Safety for you and your son does come ahead of your dog right now. I'm wishing the best for your dog.

I don't think you should go off looking for the dog without somebody who could keep you safe whatever happens (like a police officer) and a plan for where you will take the dog.

Stay strong.

[patientandclear]

Given the manipulation around the dogs, can I ask if you are absolutely sure that he would not remove your son from day care and take off with him, even for a short time?

I had to deal with protecting against this with my exH during our worst of times.  I know what a bad feeling it is to wonder if there is a stopping point past which the other person will not go in trying to achieve leverage with you.

I'm sure he won't hurt your son (other than the emotional damage that is risked with exposure to crap between parents, which I am not minimizing), but it seems like his ability to go retrieve your son from day care is a pretty enormous possible handle for him to grab onto.

Emergency protection orders have provisions to guard against that, is why I am asking about it.  I got one under similar circumstances.  In a very bad situation, it made me feel a lot better about my ability to safeguard the most important thing in my life -- my kid.  Is that something you might consider?

[allibaba]

UPDATE:  My little rescue is safely in the house.  I won't go into how I know... .   he was lying to try to manipulate me.  No real shock there.

I agree that my safety and the safety of my son comes way before the dog.  I was going to take her with me when I left this afternoon, but I ran out of time and I would have risked having to confront him.

I won't get an emergency protection order.  This is a game of manipulation from my husband.  The real danger to me was today when he was peaking in the rage and I was getting away.  That has passed now. 

Telling him that I would be at work and my son would be at daycare is my way of assuring him that its not all going down the tubes.  I do generally trust him not to hurt our son and I believe that he would only hurt me at the height of an unplanned rage.  If he goes and gets our son from daycare then I will deal with that when it comes.

He does know the boundary with the dogs.  The sad part is that he probably loves those dogs more than I do. 

Baby is asleep and I will sleep better now that I know my little angel is safe in the house.

He's sent many, many messages telling me that I am a weak, worthless human... . typical woman... . scared and spineless, that my dog is missing and gone forever... . that he has called the police to report a kidnapping... . that I should instruct him where to put my stuff (or it will be on the side of the road).  He's blustering. 

Thank you bpdfamily for supporting me tonight.  I look forward to the day when I am not posting all this drama.

I know that doing this will either save our relationship or lead it to divorce but either way... . it will be the right path.

PS Patientandclear... . I kept telling myself that I had to get on that second bus today when I left.  Thanks for giving me that reference point.

[patientandclear]

Right on, Allibaba.  I'm glad one of us got on the second bus.  (Well, I did eventually, a few years later.)  You are thinking very clearly.  Your son has a great mom.  I'm glad you found out about your dog.  And I agree with your unstated point, that while I am so glad he has not actually put the dog at risk (and I bet you are right, he wouldn't and wouldn't hurt your son), I am not sure it is much better that he is lying to manipulate you.

Eventually, when they are a little older, of course, it is impossible for it not to hurt the kid.  My daughter was 2 when I had to face that music.  A rage in the bedroom, which I'd hoped was out of earshot, led to her asking me "what daddy saying, mama?"  And so yeah -- second bus.  Like you say, you should get one of two preferable outcomes: better, or over.  You so deserve better now.  But if it ends up being over, you will have better eventually, too.

[Grey Kitty]

   You are doing a fantastic job of not taking his threats and blustering too personally.

Just make sure your safety plans are up to date, and ready for him if he decides to keep stepping things up.

As a side note, that diatribe about you being weak and worthless, scared and spineless... . sounds like a heck of a lot of projection to me. You are being VERY strong. He's got to be feeling worthless, and probably pretty weak because he can't control/manipulate you.

But until he calms down a lot, don't focus on him--focus on the safety of you, your son, and your dogs.

Do you plan to see him today or go back home tonight?

  GK

[allibaba]

Good morning everyone!

For today I feel pretty good.  I went home this morning after my husband went to work.  It took everything in my power not to clean up and turn off lights.  He's being so irresponsible!  No big shock there.  I have let my husband know that I will be home after work tomorrow.  He sent me another email this morning saying

':)on't bother coming home.  I really do not want to see you anymore.  Seriously.  Last night was the last straw.  I no longer care for you or trust you.'

I wonder if that seriously is as serious as the fact that my rescue seriously ran off hours ago and never came home.  She didn't.  When I went home this morning I took all the dogs on a nice, long, calm walk.  They appreciated it.

He also stated that he never threatened me - he told me that he "felt" like hurting me and that I am psychotic for misinterpreting that.

I responded:  no, I left because you said that if i walked away while you were talking to me that you would "[insert serious physical threat]."  I told him that I know that he has no intention of hurting me, but it scared me sufficiently that I needed to leave the house.  I also told him that I love him and he is the most important thing in my life (true) and that we can talk about the rest when I get home on Friday after work.

I let him know that our son was at daycare.  He responded that he will be collecting him today.  I am ok and at peace with that.  He would never hurt him and he would never act nuts alone with him (that's for my benefit).  He has just as much right to be with him as I do.

At this point, if he plans on keeping our son tonight... . I guess that I will just say ok and continue to stay at the shelter.  I will return after work on Friday. Having our son there will sooth him.  I appreciate that he may then try to use our son to draw me back home.  Something like 'come home.  he's inconsolable'.  Our son is never inconsolable.  He's tough as nails emotionally.  He loves his daddy more than anything.  He is a soldier about his schedule and routine and once he goes to bed he sleeps for 12 hrs (momma has him on a routine).  I wonder if my husband has thought through the fact that he cannot drop him off at daycare at 5:30 am (when my husband goes to work)... . guess I better be ready to go grab him.

My husband also just sent me a message that he is busy packing up my stuff.  He's actually at work and has been there since 6 am.  He told me that he quit his job this morning.  He's trying every trick in the book.  Immediately after leaving yesterday I pulled all but $400 out of our account (my husband's last paycheck that was deposited the day before).  I transferred it another joint account that he has no debit card access to -- so that he can't blow all our money while he is dyregulated.   

The irony is that someone attacked me (verbally) at work first thing this morning.  Someone that I really like and appreciate.  Because of the boundaries and issues going on at home - I was totally calm and defused the situation.  Side benefit.

I spoke to my uBPD mom this morning as she is arriving on Sunday here.  I let her know roughly what was going on.  She told me that while she doesn't believe that the relationship can be saved that she respects that I need to make my own decisions here (blow me over with a feather).  she told me that she will not misbehave if my husband loses it with her around and I assured her that if he crosses boundaries, we can go stay at a local bed and breakfast for the duration of her trip.  She seemed really surprised that I was willing to protect her (she has a right to a calm vacation too).

And the end of the day, I am not sure if my actions here will save my marriage or lead to a divorce but I am very at peace with it either way.  If you do right because it is right - then you don't have to worry about controlling the outcome.   

[allibaba]

He's livid.  Said everything of mine will be on the side of the road and see me in court and if I come to HIS HOME that he will call the police.  I welcome that.  The police would escort him off the property as I am the primary care giver of our son.  I really don't want it to escalate to that point.  I understand why he is so angry.  I hold all the card.  

Other than my son and my dogs, I don't care about any of it.  He was already threatening to get rid of the dogs before this all played out.  He said he will overturn my jewelry box.  The only stuff that I care about is on me.  

I have told him that I am turning off my phone as I have to work.

He's over the top angry.

[allibaba]

I finally signed off and said

Love you and have a good day.  PS All of this hurts me a lot

He responded:

Sounds like u r in denial.

You need help.

I do not want you anymore... . UNDERSTAND?

LIFE IS TOO HARD WITH YOU

NOW GO AWAY

AND DONT FORGET UR S

AT THE GATE 

:'(  :'(  :'(

[Grey Kitty]

 

It really sounds like he realizes he's losing control of you and he's flailing around. Desperate can be dangerous!


Given what you said about transferring money into a different joint account that he would have to work a little harder to drain... . And given that you are prepared for this to end in divorce if he does more than threaten... .   :'(

I'd recommend getting an account with only your name on it and putting a little emergency money into it, especially if you can do it without him noticing. No need to escalate things, but having the account ready as part of a safety plan sounds good to me. So does hiding some extra cash in a safe place, perhaps at work? He can't lock you out there.

Stay strong. This continues to be one hell of an extinction burst.

 GK

[allibaba]

Hi Grey Kitty,

It is one hell of an extinction burst!

To answer your question, even though I live in Canada and have all joint accounts with my husband, I have significant savings in the US.  I am the only one that has access to these investment and spending accounts.  He could permanently lock me out and I would be able to sign a lease on an apt and put down funds with no issue.  I am a seriously lucky and independent woman. 

Thank you for caring.  I know that I need to get a spare car key and store it hidden outside now.  I agree with a stash of cash at the office.

In my heart of hearts, I believe that this extinction burst will end and he will respect me even more and we will have a better marriage.

If I arrive on Friday and he won't let me in the house, I will call the police and have his escorted off of the property.  I have already been given advise by the police that since I am the primary caregiver if he tries to keep me out then they will escort him away.

I do admit I feel bad for him that he's got no power over me right now.  Poor guy.  This must be incredibly painful.

He just sent me a message saying that he won't pick our son up from daycare since he should get used to him not being in his life now.

Drama Drama Drama.

[sjm7411]

When my BPh gets like this, I know it's really because he thinks he is losing me and he feels helpless.  Clearly your H is off the deep end because you are becoming strong and he thinks you're eventually going to stop putting up with him.  He isn't hearing the "I love you's", all he's seeing is your strength to walk away.  Scary stuff for BPD, I think.  Is it also possible that he thinks you and your mom will conspire against him while she's visiting?  I wish I had some advice for you that could make him stop, but unfortunately I think he is on this roller coaster for an undefined amount of time until he realizes you aren't going anywhere.  The fear of abandonment is completely dysregulating him. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[allibaba]

I wish I had some advice for you that could make him stop, but unfortunately I think he is on this roller coaster for an undefined amount of time until he realizes you aren't going anywhere.  The fear of abandonment is completely dysregulating him.  

I agree and the irony is that I am NOT going anywhere!  I adore this man even in the middle of all this.  I can detach and understand that his fear is driving him.  He HATES the fact that I am not available to take his stress out on... . it must be so hard for him to self-sooth.  

This is just a ride that I have to take.  Can't get off in the middle.  I think that he'll do better tomorrow when I show up at home.  The reason that I am not going home tonight is that it normally takes 2-3 days for him to calm down after a meltdown.  I don't want to go back and have to turn around and leave because he is being abusive.



I think that the stress over my mom is that she heard him call me a stupid f**** c**** around Easter time.  I was on the phone with her and I don't think that he realized it.  This was before I started enforcing boundaries   Now he thinks that she is out to get him.  She loves being around him when he's being himself (not dyregulated!).  Granted right now she thinks my life would be better without him but she knows better than to insert herself into this matter.  Amazing self awareness for a uBPD (my mom).

[allibaba]

He just sent me two messages making sure that "I didn't forget to pick up our son."  Yeah... . like I would forget him!

He then called to tell me that all of my stuff is sitting out by the side of the road in trash bags.  I honestly, honestly don't care if it is.  Why is that so strange to me.

He then hung up on me and called back to tell me that both of our dogs are still missing (they aren't)... . they are at home.  He just got off at work and wanted to pull my strings.  I think that I will take my son out to dinner tonight... . maybe somewhere nice

Back to trudging the road of happy destiny.  If he calls again... . I won't answer but I tried to sound as loving as possible when I did speak with him.

[allibaba]

He just called a bunch of times and then sent the following message:

Your stuff is at the gate.  I would recommend that you collect it before the storms hit tonight and tomorrow.  I have no desire to see you but a hell of a lot of really good crap will be ruined.  Literally everything that you own is outside so GOOD LUCK.

Don't mean to give minutely updates but he is really in the middle of the mother-of-all extinction bursts!

I am at peace if I lose all my stuff.

[123Phoebe]

He may be bluffing, but I think I'd be a bit concerned about my stuff (including child, animals... . ) and I wouldn't be at peace with it, or him for behaving this way.

Take good care of yourself and all that you hold near and dear, he sounds a little out there right now.

[allibaba]

He's now sent me pictures of the empty closet, my empty bathroom drawers, everything out by the side of the road. 

Any suggested responses?  Do I just keep ignoring the behavior? 

I have had it.  Everything can be replaced.

[123Phoebe]

What about calling the police?  See what they suggest doing.

[allibaba]

I'm really not interesting in getting the police involved over trinkets.  They would escort him off the property.  That would definitely be the end of our marriage.  This is one big massive act of adult tantrum.

I was thinking of sending him a message asking him how he would feel if I had taken everything he owned and dumped it on the side of the road?

[123Phoebe]

His behavior is escalating.  You have no control over what he does or decides to do. 

[KateCat]

Can you ask the police to pay a visit to your residence to do a "wellness check" on an individual in crisis?

[Grey Kitty]

I'm really not interesting in getting the police involved over trinkets.  They would escort him off the property.  That would definitely be the end of our marriage.  This is one big massive act of adult tantrum.

He's escalating. You are ignoring. He continues escalating. Don't "test" him to see how much farther he will go.

I'm afraid this isn't working anymore. Time for something different.

Regarding the police, there is a possible middle ground:

Call him and tell him that this is not acceptable, and that you will involve the police if he doesn't stop immediately. First make sure you do have the ability to back this one up. If you are planning to go back to the shelter tonight, you can probably get assistance liaising with the police from them.

I was thinking of sending him a message asking him how he would feel if I had taken everything he owned and dumped it on the side of the road?

He's completely dysregulated. Don't expect him to understand anything.

[KateCat]

Don't "test" him to see how much farther he will go.

This is crucial. Backing completely away right now gives you the best chance to avoid irreparable harm to you, your son, and your husband.

[allibaba]

He's told me that my stuff is on the side of the road - waiting for me - totally available and that he's not hurting anything.

[allibaba]

I guess that his NPD is out.

[4now]

I just wanted to send you some support and good vibes!

I can imagine this must be very hard for you, even if you are hoping for the best, this type of behavior is hurtful. 

I agree that the NPD is out in full force, as well as the BPD.

I don't know where you go from here. 

You said you wouldn't get the police to escort him off because that would be the end of your marriage for sure.  You know that is really his decision to react that way, it wouldn't be your fault.  I understand you don't want to escalate anything, but it seems no matter what you do he is reacting and escalating. 

Has the shelter given any advice or insight?  I worry about your safety as this is way off the charts to just put your stuff outside.  Did he put your son's stuff outside too?  Is it really outside or did he just send pics of the empty closets? Not that it matters, except it's perhaps another attempt at mind games.

 Stay strong and be careful!

[KateCat]

Would it make sense for you to call a local moving service and have them transport your possessions to a storage facility? (It seems they would be easy to identify, if they are outside the residence.)

My sense is that anything that will avoid "shaming him" or challenging him at this time is to your advantage. If the marriage is to have a chance of repair in the future, it could be crucial that you not appear to be belittling him or daring him in any way.

Allibaba, I believe he has hit you and thrown things at/near you in the past, right? Please don't return home right now. This really is a crisis.

[allibaba]

I sent him a message telling him that "I am picking up my stuff."  I went and got it (it was at the end of a long, long, long driveway). 

I am back at the domestic violence shelter.  Once my son goes to bed, I will find out what my legal rights are with respect to the house.  I had to leave under duress and my husband has removed all my belongings without my consent.  I understand that in this jurisdiction, a mother with a child always gets to stay in the house for the welfare of the child.  I am still clinging to the notion that he'll snap out of it, but I cannot continue like this.

I really don't know what else to do.  I am completely back into a corner now.  It seems that he is hell bent to force me out of his life.

My husband has hit me before (nothing significant) more as a show of power than to actually hurt me.  Its been a very long time.  I told him that if he ever did it again, I would leave him. 

I'll find out what my legal rights are and then if I have to have him removed, I will.

[KateCat]

So proud of you! 

This is such tough stuff, but it's possible that the worst of this crisis will now be over soon. Your plan is very sensible and it is the stuff that family courts have much experience with.

Does your husband have someplace he can stay for a while to make the transition easier for him?

[waverider]

OOuch a lot has happened since I last checked in.

You are definitely at a turning point in your life one way or another.

I am guessing in the past you would have reacted like a headless chuck and joined in the chaos. What is happening here is you have a better sense of understanding and are able to look more objectively and less emotional at things. You are more in control of you.

Too him though its not about you, its about him. He sees you now controlling him, and being less emotional about him. He cant soothe by projecting onto you, so he's left with facing his own dramas. So he tries harder to project by escalating to get you to fight back so that he can prove to himself that it is all your fault. Its not working, so he tries harder and it escalates. This is the process of blocking projection at work.

I went through a similar reaction when I first started blocking projection. Partner ended up having a mental breakdown and ODing (she was prone to OD's as coping mechanism, more self harm than suicidal). It was however the crisis she had to have. I believe he probably has to have this crisis.

It is your job now to stay firm and do the appropriate things for everyones safety. This is not him being evil, it is him having a breakdown. It needs to run its course with the least imput from you as possible so that you dont confuse exactly what it is about.

By the tone of your words it is obvious that you are also at that point of clarity that you are not going back to your old ways of being bullied and scared. You know that, and now he knows that.

I think it is a good idea to at least make a report to the police that you believe he is having a breakdown just in case anything does happen.

Has he ever self harmed or been suicidal in the past?

[KateCat]

waverider has wonderful advice.

What's great about going through family court and even possibly alerting police to the fact that your husband is having a mental crisis is that you are helping keep things outside the criminal arena. If none of this "prep work" were to take place, and if the police were to arrive at the scene of a domestic disturbance with a fellow this out of control, he would likely be headed for jail.

A physical separation now, done through the courts, can protect your husband from himself at a time when he is very psychologically vulnerable.

[allibaba]

He's been going to work.  He's socializing as if nothing is happening.  Apparently the only one viewing the meltdown is me.  I don't really have any basis to report a meltdown to the police.  Reporting it to the police would also make him ineligible for a volunteer activity that he participates in.  I am not willing to do that.  I have plenty of documentation of his mental state through his messages.  The shelter resources say that it is clear that he has mental issues just based on the way that he is writing.

I am definitely at a turning point.  I just sat with a close friend in the parking lot and let her know what we going on.  She says that she doesn't want me at the shelter.  She wants me at her house.  She says that she has plenty of room for the dogs.  She said that ultimately we need to get him out of the house but that is a task for another day.  She asked me to please move my belongings to her garage. 

In the past I definitely participated in the chaos.  Not so much in the back and forth drama but I would have been at home already holding his hand telling him that everything would be ok.  The problem is that it won't be.  Its getting worse.  I stopped doing that soothing when my son was born.  I guess that I realized that things had to change a long time ago... .

So so so tired.  So good night.

[allibaba]

This will be my last posting on the staying board... .

I have contacted several lawyers and will be in the process of trying to get him out of the house.  

I'm devastated but I know that I have done more than the average person to make this work.  He hates me -- whether it be because we aren't compatible, or because he has issues, or because I support us and it makes him feel less than... .

Received the following message this morning:

6/27/2013 9:03 PM: Me: I walked away from you when you got aggressive because I want our marriage to work and I knew that we couldn't continue in a cycle that just kept getting worse and worse.

6/27/2013 9:04 PM: Me: I did not leave to abandon you.

6/28/2013 8:34 AM: Him: I am a fool for wasting my time on you... . all you did was suck the life out of me... . glad u got ur X... . i will pack the rest today and tomorrow

6/28/2013 8:37 AM: Him: U r a runner... . u dont fix things... . u run and hope things will have changed when you return   u have lived ur entire life like that right up till your last run... . u have been running from reality ur whole life which is why you have no friends or family... . you dont invest in people... . no one... . i lived with a zombie... . no hobbies interests friends smiles sharing extended family... . nothing... . a human doing... . not a human being

6/28/2013 8:39 AM: Him: U r more like ur father than u realize... . u had better be very careful with how you live the rest of ur life

6/28/2013 8:39 AM: Him: GOODBYE

My father is an alcoholic who has both Korzakoff Sydrome and Alzheimers.  He is in a dementia care facility and is basically crazy (sadly).

I have tried so hard but its just not enough.

If he comes back and says he will change, I will agree to only the following conditions:

1.  He gets out of the house and finds an apt.

2.  He goes to therapy and works on himself.

3.  I see stability for 6-12 months.

[tiredpartner]

Wow, I think you are married to my BPDp. You are so strong. I wish I found all of you when I sat where you are sitting. I have been in your exact situation too many times and I had no idea what was going on, I was so confused. I wish I could give you advice but unfortunately I probably did not handle it the way I should have. Again, I was clueless about what was going on. I just knew something was wrong. And as the tornado spins back around, it's as if nothing happened. I am learning so much from all of you and just from this post. My BPDp is also going through an episode but I feel fortunate that it has not gotten as far this time. I want to thank you for sharing your story, for giving me hope for my happiness and/or relationship and reaching for support here (as turning to this site can be a trigger in my house). Thank you for being so strong for yourself, your son and for the BPD supporters. I will be thinking of you and wishing only good things for you and your son. I feel in my heart that what you said is true, what you are doing, no matter the outcome, is the right path. I'm relieved you have such a good friend by your side. Please let us know what happens.

[Rockylove]

Oh, my dear allibaba!  I'm so sorry this is happening!  Please, please... . take care of yourself and your child.  The dogs will be fine.  I know how hard it is and I've taken my dogs to a friend's house for a while just to have them have some safe haven.  If you can get to them without having to deal with your H, then by all means... . take them to your friend's home where you know they are welcome and safe.  It doesn't sound very good at the moment and it may get better, but there's just no telling.  I care about you!

[patientandclear]

Allibaba -- I am now relating so profoundly to your situation.  These dynamics are so like the ones I confronted in my former marriage (not with the BPD man who caused me to find this site).

The escalating list of threats (mostly empty, some not) designed to prevent me from enforcing boundaries.  The cruel things said that I thought I could discount -- obviously, he didn't believe them, he just was looking for ammunition -- and later found did so much deep damage that it set me up nicely to lose my grip entirely when being courted by a BPD man who told me I was amazing.

I read your latest posts on Undecided, and just want to say -- this is the moment of the second bus.  (Other readers, this is a reference to a discussion on an earlier thread.)  This is where he tells you he needs you back.  That he's got a plan.  That he'll stop being hurtful and destructive.

It is really just the next step on the manipulation ladder.  Throwing your stuff out, threatening your dogs, saying he'd pick up your son -- that didn't work.  So now he's trying something he thinks might work.  But that's not because he's decided those other things he did were wrong, and it's not because he won't resort to them again.

If you get on the second bus -- if you hold out for real change -- there is some chance that he will actually take it on himself to examine some stuff that is really worth examining.

If you don't -- if you just go back and draw momentary solace from the fact that he's no longer attacking you -- I'd guess there is very little chance of real change.  In fact, he will have learned that making you utterly miserable and attacking you, and then being somewhat regretful, will lead you ... . back into his arms and his life.

You've worked hard to meaningfully defend the values that really matter to you.  Of course -- of course! -- he is going to switch to asking you to come back. The other path wasn't going so well.  This part is so much harder.  This is truly where I was when I didn't get on the second bus.

As you know, my relationship with my exH only got better (and we are genuinely friends now) when I finally did not go back.  It took a couple of years after that.  No, he doesn't have BPD, but he has some kind of PD and was astonishingly comfortable blaming me for all the disappointments in his life.  I had to be well, well clear for it to become evident to him that I was not the cause.



P&C

[allibaba]

Hi patientandclear,

Thank you for the continued support.  Regardless of whether I go back to the house or not... . it would be with conditions.

I AM NOT AND WILL NEVER ACCEPT THE OLD SITUATION.  EVERY AGAIN.

I will make the changes that I need to in my life with or without my husband. 

I have crafted a better safety plan including -- car key hidden in shed (I went home to talk last night), bag of supplies at friend's house, key to both my house and friend's house hidden.

Regardless of where I am physically... . psychologically I am on that second bus 

[Rockylove]

 

I love the strength you are showing right now.  Inspirational to say the least!  I wish I had some great words of wisdom, but alas... . I've nothing but admiration for your tenacity and I hope things settle down for you very soon. 

[allibaba]

Its a good feeling to know that our situation needs to change.

I'm back at the house though and am conflicted about what I need to do.

I came back primarily because if you leave in our jurisdiction... . its almost impossible to get back to the house.

My mom is here and his physical rage is gone.  What's left is a general frustration w me.  Nothing I do is acceptable. 

I've spoken w 2 lawyers and I will met w them to understand my rights and obligations here.

[123Phoebe]

I'm back at the house though and am conflicted about what I need to do.

his physical rage is gone.  What's left is a general frustration w me.  Nothing I do is acceptable. 

Is what he's doing acceptable in any way, shape or form?

I've spoken w 2 lawyers and I will met w them to understand my rights and obligations here.

When are you scheduled to meet with the lawyers? 

[Blazing Star]

Just keep breathing allibaba.

Breathing and eating well and getting some good sleep. No need to make any decisions at the moment, wait until you speak to the lawyers.

Let his words and his frustration wash over you, water off a ducks back, remind yourself of this often.

Know that you are worthy and you are wonderful.

We are here for you.

Love Blazing Star

[allibaba]

OK... . I am back and now I have a plan.  A good plan which has been vetted by a very experienced psychologist (experienced in BPD/ NPD/ PTSD) and I have our family doctor on board as well... .   I went down the road of splitting up temporarily but my heart was never in it.

So as I was enforcing boundaries he became very nasty (felt like I wasn't listening to him).  I believe that things escalated because I had inadvertently taken a very black and white stance on boundary enforcement. 

Those around me in the real world said ENOUGH!  If he doesn't get help then be done and move on!  Problem is that that isn't where my heart is.  Maybe that is the right answer for some but not me and not today.

I shared with the therapist that I believe for him to get help, he needs to be at least at a baseline (medicated for extreme anxiety and working a job that is consistent with his abilities).  Based on his personality and the BPD/NPD/OCD/PTSD mix if I left him today -- he'd just find someone else to suck onto and start the cycle all over -- never getting the help that he needs  I know that ultimately that is not my problem but I have a lot invested in this relationship including a son so I'm going to fight for it. 

1.  I spoke to him about the fact that I hear him that this job isn't going to work for him.  Now what are we going to do about it?  Agreed to apply for jobs and I agreed to help him look, help him submit resumes/ cover letters.

2.  He absolutely needs to be medicated for the anxiety/ aggression.  There is a clear physical issue that is handicapping him.  I got the name of a psychiatrist, have spoken with our family doctor, and have a referral ready.  He is a good friend of the therapist (a psychologist).  I also have the names of three proposed medications on hand... . one has none of the sexual dysfunction sides effects that would make my husband insane (or at least more insane than he already is ).  My husband will shortly have an appt with our family doctor and I am going to have her bring up the anxiety with him (already having been briefed by me).  I suspect that the floodgates will open - he's very emotional and really struggling and I bet she can convince him that there is a better way to live.  He's confiding in the applicance repair guy... . so I figure that he will open up with the GP that he respects!  Manipulative I know, but I have tried and failed at all direct routes.

3.  Once he is back on stable ground (yes I realize that this is probably a long shot but gotta try), get him into DBT therapy with the therapist under the guise of PTSD/ or relationship counselling.  The guy is absolutely considered a specialist and he assures me that he has had significant success.  He's happy to play whatever ruse will get him there.

4.  Work on my communication skills with my husband.  He still feels like I don't hear him/ care about him.  Next time things escalate - don't take such a hard stance.  It didn't do any good and he kept upping the ante on me.  I managed to stop the cycle on this last round by simply saying "stop treating me like this.  I don't deserve it."  It acknowledged that I was in pain from the things that he was going and didn't threaten him.

5.  I have already met with a lawyer/ got a separate bank account/ removed overdraft from our joint account so that if he completely flips a NUT I am prepared.  I now understand the local laws and my rights.  I also spoke to the police and have a contact who is prepared to come out here if hubby gets out of control with the sole intended purpose of calming him down.

Its a good plan!  I think!  I like it.  Back to feeling empowered

[allibaba]

6.  Continue having a good life for me and for my son.  He doesn't have to climb on board but we are definitely taking care of ourselves

[4now]

I am glad to see that things are on a better path.  You are to be applauded for your commitment to making it work.  You are following your heart on that one and a lot of people might not understand it, but I do and think you should follow what you feel is best to do. 

Your plan does sound like a solid one and it sounds very workable.  I wish you the best! I hope it all begins to come together for you and your family.

Take care!

[allibaba]

4now at least I know that if and when I get to the end of the line (where separating is the only option) then I exhausted all resources trying to find an answer and I will have some peace knowing that I have done my part.   

[Grey Kitty]

  I'm glad to see the empowered Allibaba back!

The plan sounds good to me. Having a whole team working on it sounds great! I really don't have much to add to it.

This part which is more looking back does leave me a few thoughts.:

So as I was enforcing boundaries he became very nasty (felt like I wasn't listening to him).  I believe that things escalated because I had inadvertently taken a very black and white stance on boundary enforcement.

I see two aspects of black and white absolute boundaries:

First, and very good, I do believe that boundaries work better when they are firm and clearly defined. Being vague or mushy with them simply doesn't work well.

Second, it is possible to miss the original point, which is protecting ourselves and our values by using boundaries. In the workshop BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence I found this quote:

Defending boundaries (without values) tends to be shallow, reactive, and confrontational

I will not tolerate you getting in my face (stated aggressively)

If you do things I don't like, I will respond by doing things that are equally distressing to you

You weren't there when I needed you, so I wasn't there when you need me

I don't see anything that you did like this, but it is something to watch out for.

My only other thought is that this is a time for as much genuine validation as you can manage, especially since your H is in a state where he can listen to you now.

[waverider]

The best thing about drawing up boundaries at this point is that you are doing it objectively, with advice and a clear head, rather than on the run and reactionary, which is what GK is referring to. When not clearly thought out they can be unbalanced and controlling.

Still be careful though this is still very much about you and how YOU interact, a pwBPD does not change overnight as a result of ultimatums and desperate promises.

The same triggers and issues are likely to arise a few weeks/months down the track. the real difference will be still be about how you will handle it. Your partner seeking T should be regarded as providing longer term results rather than the immediate future.

[momtara]

I just read your whole story.  It's very frustrating because he is really crossing some lines.  You are in a place that I was in two years ago - I figured out exactly how to tiptoe around him, and ignore threats, etc. and then he would calm down and I'd be happy that our family was normal again.  I was so used to doing this that I didn't realize how often I had to look over my shoulder, how many people I had stopped being friends with, how often I had to temper what I said, how nervous I was to get an email or a text from him, even during the good times... .

My husband also would figure out what mattered to me most and threaten it.  It starts killing the trust and love you have, even if slowly.

One weekend, I finally decided to stand up to it.  I pointed out obvious lies.  I caught him in others.  I provided proof.  I didn't back down.

So he called the cops and told them I had abused our son.  I guess I had always wondered how far he would go, and now I got to see.

I talked to various lawyers.  I really didn't want to rock the boat.  Like you, I saw my husband's good side.  But one lawyer pointed out to me that if the police had called child services, and our kids got taken away, I could spend weeks fighting to get them back.  One of our kids was a baby. 

Of couse, that's a worst case scenario, but I realized I had lost control of the situation.  It is NOT normal to have to worry that your husband, rahter than supporting all of your efforts to take care of the family and please him, constantly criticises them, then goes as far as to say you're an abuser!

Anyway, I got a restraining order because he had harassed me the day after all that too.  Then I dropped the order in exchange for a few things, like him being out of the house for a few months, going to a family therapist, etc.

The mistake would have been if I let him in too soon, without making a list of EVERY bad behavior that needed to change.  Not just some.  Everyhting.

It was only after all this that he finally started acknowledging his problems, and he still lied about some, until I said I was getting a divorce.

Not everyone is the same.  However, I encourage you to make a list of all the behaviors that are unhealthy and that he has to stop doing.  These guys get comfortable and go right back to your patterns.  If you could have weekly therapy for him or both of you, at least there would be another person in this matter who could butt in if things get bad.

I also want to warn you that he could get significant custody, possibly 50/50, as courts want to make sure both parents see their kids these days, and BPD is hard to prove.  The law works in your favor if you do most of the childcare, and especially if you live in the house.  So if one of you must move out, make sure it's him.

Standing up to someone like this is risky.  Yes, he may leave you.  I thought my husband would.  But he didn't.  Of course, the kids played a part in that.

I don't want you to get to be 60 years old and wished you hadn't had to live with so much fear.  I used to get diarrheah when my husband was threatening something.  It felt good when he went back to his non-stressed self.  But was that enough?

You should feel comfortable in your own home.  If you don't want to leave, you don't have to.  I just don't want it to get to a point where the police get involved, and it seems close.  I don't want to give advice, because I don't know how far your husband might go if you really DO stand up to him.  It is hard to know.  I just wanted to give you my perspective, that's all.  It may be truly worthless.

I will say this, though:  Carry a tape recorder.  He could get a restraining order vs. you just like you could get one against him.  If he threatens to hurt you, son, dogs, or anything else, at least having the recorder will be some proof of what you have endured.  A journal helps too.

[Rockylove]

   I am so happy that you're in a better head space... . I was concerned about you!  You're going to be fine... . regardless of whether he follows along or not

[allibaba]

Unfortunately I don't think that my husband and I are going to make it out of this one... .

Yesterday we went boat shopping (unbelievable, I know) but one of his primary complaints is not knowing enough fun people in our area (he's very social and we live in a very dull area).  I'd been talking to one of my friends who has lived here all her life... . and she suggested that we buy an inexpensive boat and get out on the many lakes.  So we went looking.  On the way to put the deposit on the selected boat... . I reminded him that we needed to stop at the grocery store there because we were out of his granola bars (I had packed the last one for the shopping excursion)... . we were the next street over and I had warned him that this errand needed to be done before we went home.  Well he lost it.  In the car, calling me a liar and a ' f b ' and a 'f c' who couldn't organize anything.  Clearly I don't love him because I don't care about him and don't listen to him and started listing the reasons that he hates me.  I started the day with him explaining that he will never leave our house and he will never get divorced... . he will grow old and be miserable and suck me dry for every penny. 

So my son is in the car -- and he starts driving like a lunatic (not to mention the verbal abuse).  I told him to please stop speaking to me like that or he needed to stop the car.  Well he slams breaks and yells 'get the f out'. I'm barely out of the car and he sped off.  He would have hurt me if I hadn't jumped out so fast.

I was about 20 min from home.  I flagged down the next car... . I live in the country and it was two young men going to bail hay at the family farm.  Come to find out the family farm was on my road and they took me the whole way home.  I got home to find that he had once again blocked me from getting into the house by putting our generator in front of the door in the garage. 

Momtara, Thanks for your thoughts.  I genuinely appreciate them.  I do feel that I am at the end of my road here.  Its odd.  Its very peaceful.  I previously thought that it would be some big drama that caused me to feel this way (odd that I don't consider being left on the side of the road a big drama - that probably speaks volumes).

I believe that there are some people on this earth that are sick and that can find help and have a better life... . and I believe that there are some people that are addicted to being mentally sick and abusing people.  I knew this before I started down the road to a healthy life.  I thought my husband was in the first category, but it occurred to me yesterday that I don't believe that he is.  I think that he's one of the second and I don't want to spend my life in turmoil.  If nothing else, if I don't get healthy... . I won't be healthy for my son and if I ever have another relationship I will carry it into that new relationship.

[allibaba]

I sent him a message saying:

"You are pushing me out of your life again.  Just like you did in 2008.  If you hate me/ can't stand me (which is how you act)... . tell me... . calmly and honestly... . and we'll figure out a way for your to get on with your life and find what makes you happy.  I'm not like your ex-wife.  I love you too much to be nasty to you."

I know that this message will do little but make him angry.  I'm ready for that.  I told him in no uncertain terms that he must stop blocking me from getting into the house.  I am going to calmly request that we separate.  I have done everything I can... . and he believes that I am his problem. 

I do honestly believe that I have a shot at having a good and healthy life without him.  I can be a good and stable parent.  With him in the house, there is no stability for our son. 

So what now.  I've sent the separation message over the bow and I am going to apply for a divorce based on emotional abuse.  He has every right to be in the house... . right up until the point that he blocks me from entry or puts my stuff at the end of the driveway (its coming).  If and when that happens I will go to court to apply for an ORDER for exclusive possession of the house... . and kick his butt out.  I don't want it to come to that... . but if it does.  I will.

     

[waverider]

That's so hard, I sense a real feeling of resignation, even relief, as though the hard decision has been taken away along with doubt.

[allibaba]

You are spot on waverider... .

Resignation, feeling that I don't have a choice, mixed with some relief.

Knowledge that I am about to enter hell... . mixed w the feeling that it doesn't really make a difference because I am already in hell.  He wants the comfort of being able to abuse me and he wants a free ride in life.  If at any point he made an effort perhaps I could reconsider.  But he prefers the status quo and that's not good enough.

[allibaba]

And I have finally realized that its ok to leave him without some big incident.  I don't need to get hurt for it to be ok to dissolve our marriage.  There is a weird sense of calm.  I won't go into details -- but he has hurt me before... . physically.  Never bad enough to require medical treatment... . but bad enough that it had an impact.  He has hurt all of my dogs before.  Two needed serious surgery (one happened in 2008... . the other in 2010)... . vet bills of $5,000 collectively.  One is lucky that she is alive.  Both were accidents... . but does not make it ok?  No.  I am coming out of the fog here... . why I am working so hard to help this man?  Why have I protected him?

While I feel that he would only hurt me in a rage, the rages are frequent.  Let's be honest.  :)o I really want to live like this?  I know that I can't expose my son to this.  It was ok when I thought that the rage was an extinction burst and that the behavior would become extinct... . but I now doubt that.

I am grateful to this site because its teaching me how to be healthy... . and I can finally separate his unhealthiness from mine.  I came into this relationship really broken 10 years ago.  :)espite the craziness, I actually feel like a much better more whole person.  Ironic isn't it?

[patientandclear]

Allibaba, a couple of things.

IF your H is in the first category -- someone who can make himself learn and get better -- it probably will not happen IN your r/s.  He sounds like he is similar to my exH, the man (not BPD) that I've written to you about before -- I needed to be gone, gone, gone, for quite a while, before he could see that I was not the source of the bad feelings.  So long as I was there, he could not resist the temptation to find me to be the source of all that was wrong, and to expect me to be the solution.

Your H is his own solution but I think he cannot see that with you there.

Which is why an actual ending is probably the greatest gift you can give him.  Then the decision about whether to be in the first or second category is really posed.  You'll find out in time which it is.  By that time though, I doubt you'd want to resume.  My loving feelings toward my exH just cannot be restored, it turns out.  I admire a lot of what he's done since & I will always care about him, and he's the father of my kid, so we will always be connected, but -- my tenderness and romantic love toward him was finally killed by so much mistreatment and abuse.

(And that left me open to fall in love with a man wBPD!  But that's another story.)

You are being very brave to put out there, for yourself and for us, things like the injury to yourself in the past and the injury to the dogs.  I know it's hard to actually say those things, knowing that they have implications about what you should do that you've not wanted to pursue for a long time.  I've been there too.

I hope you don't mind if I flag for you that your communications with him today put him in the driver's seat.  :)o you really want to do that?  "If you want to push me out of your life ... . tell me ... . and then we will ... . ".  ?  :)oes he really need to take further steps for you to decide?  Is this up to him?  What if he doesn't follow your loving, logical and sensible instructions about how to proceed?

You seem to be saying that if he desists/since he desisted blocking your access to your house you will resume with him.  ?  Is that where you are?

I think you are onto something important when you observe that being left by the side of the road doesn't feel like a major incident.  Was your son still in the car with him?  While he was driving like a lunatic?  Was your son in the house with him when he had barricaded you out?  These are major violations of your right of access to your child, the vulnerable person you (between the two parents) are best situated to protect and care for.  I really identify with this sort of "desensitization" toward extreme behavior.  It happened to me in my marriage.  Sort of like "well, I already endured that horrible thing last week, and this isn't more horrible, so, there's no new line being crossed."  It's very much like the frog in the pot of water being brought slowly to a boil -- there's no bright line.

Yet today something in you is telling you yesterday's events mattered.  I just want to validate the heck out of that instinct.  It is so hard to hang onto when you're the frog in the pot, but: jump out now!  You're in time to save yourself and your son.

I know it's scary but it seems like it's time for you to switch into decision/action mode.  Because of XYZ you, Allibaba, are doing ABC.  No bargaining with him.  Your messages to him convey that maybe you are still waiting to see if he will do what you want ... .

[arabella]

Just wanted to reach out with a

I know this feels like the end of the road. It some ways it is, but I think it is also the beginning of a new road. The one you were on wasn't going anywhere good so you're making the decision to change directions.

All of those things you listed in your plan (a few posts up)? They can still happen. Your H can still get help. You can still be there - just at more of a distance. Hold on to that feeling of empowerment! I agree with patientandclear, the ball is in your court now, don't give away your power. Be brave.

[patientandclear]

... . and now I feel like I've violating the "righting reflex" point that someone (UFN? WR?) posted here a bit ago -- you yourself wrote that you were ready to take some actions, and now here I come along urging you to take those actions, and maybe that will unconsciously trigger an instinct to defend against the advice you were already giving yourself.

I'm sorry!

You yourself are being a hell of a guide for yourself.  Just follow what you know.

[Grey Kitty]

All I have to say is    Stay strong, allibaba! You will get through all this.

That and I'm sorry to hear how things are turning out.

 GK

[momtara]

I'm sorry this happened.  But he is putting you and your son in physical danger and your son should not grow up thinking this is how you treat someone.  I know what it is to be attached.

The email you sent is excellent.  It gives him the responsibility for causing the split, so he can't blame you.  It takes the high road so he can't say later that you were just as bad.

It concerns me that he keeps blocking you out.  He could fight for at least 50/50 custody out of spite.  He should leave, not you.

It also concerns me that you have none of htis behavior on tape.  These guys can lie.

Document, write it in a journal.  Lawyers can give free consultations.  See if you can file a motion to get him out of the house.

I don't know how it is in your state, but sometimes filing for divorce based on emotional abuse isn't muh better than just filing a no fault divorce.  It just means bringing up a lot of evidence, spending more money, and having to prove stuff.  SO talk to several lawyers to see the best way to go.  

Courts also sometimes don't factor emotional abuse of the mother into how they decide custody of the kid.  If your husband is a good dad, then having it split equally isn't so terrible, maybe, but you want to at least have equal if not more time with your son.  So make sure you keep (or get) your own records of what you do - bring him to the doctor, etc.  If you have school memos`

, recepits, etc, get those too.

YOu need to separate, in my opionion, until he commits to real change and shows evidence of it - not just half change.  You are living a life in which you can't even say the wrong thing or mention granola bars without him being set off.  He knows he can ontrol you.  You are being as kind and loving as anyone can.  Having to have your dogs threatened?  Telling you to leave the car?  These are bordering on physical abuse.  

It almost caused you physical harm.  Your son does not need that.

I was hesitant to leave my husband.  I know that good men are hard to find.  But you have to start thinking of yourself as your own team, and your son is on it.  :)ocument, be smarter than he is.  

You will realize how good it feels to be able to breathe, when you have a little distance and are around normal people who aren't afraid of making mistakes with their spouses.

Believe me, I get it.  Please keep

posting.

[momtara]

and please get a micro tape recorder and keep practicing with it.  stick it in your sock if you have to.  use it every time you talk to him on the phone.  save any texs and emails with him claiming your dogs have disappeared.  of course, he will have locial explanations about all of this.  that's why you need to just keep taping.0111111111

[momtara]

sorry - logical explanations.  my kid is messinG WITH MY KEYBOARD!

[waverider]

This topic has now been locked as it has reached 4 page limit

It is also now more appropriate to the Undecided Board to avoid run messages being promoted on the Staying Board.

The latest posts have been opened as a new thread on the Undecided Board

Re: My biggest fear, Continued from Staying Board

Waverider