Recordings

[smiley gladhands]

i've begun recording conversations with my BPD wife on my iphone... some are worse than others, but would these make any difference at all as far as child custody goes, depending whats on there?

I live in NY, and only 1 party needs to consent to recording a conversation (me) so i believe what i'm doing is legal.

[marbleloser]

It could help with custody.In a one party state,you will still need to be a part of the conversation to record.Even if it's just you saying "Hi!"

Recording has advantages because :

1.It helps protect you from false abuse charges.

2.It can establish a pattern.(SO raging or abusive to you or the kids,or at you with the kids present)

3.It can help show that you're involved with the kids.

4.It helps prevent he said/she saids

5.It gives a record of exactly what happened.

That said,there are proper ways to record.You don't want to "bait" someone and then record. I like to turn the recorder on before I'm around stbx.For instance,if I'm driving to pick up the kiddos,I'll start recording 5 minutes before I get there.I establish the time and date and what I'm doing.I have the radio on,so if the time is mentioned,it confirms my recording time.

This,along with  having a parenting journal,is just one of the tools to present if needed.Your parenting journal should also confirm your recordings.

[smiley gladhands]

thanks - she usually rages at me in the evenings, after the children have gone to sleep. She likes to watch TV, an i will sit on the couch and play some games on my iphone if i'm not into the shows she watching. I'll just sit there and press record when she starts going.

SHes started throwing divorce threats at me rather regularly over disagreements, which has caused me to start doing this. I wouldnt put it past her to start throwing false abuse allegations at me, so i do hope to get her to admit on the recording that she would indeed do that. Its more a protective measure than me trying to bait her into anything.

So far i have her saying shes going to take me to court and definitely get full custody, and that my family (parents and siblings) should not be allowed to see our very young children again (all this over a minor argument occurring at christmas time with my SIL). My parents refuse to get involved, and shes taking that refusal to "take sides" as implicitly "taking the other side".

I also have her on recording using racist words to refer to my SIL, and repeatedly calling her a "whore".

[marbleloser]

"So far i have her saying shes going to take me to court and definitely get full custody, and that my family (parents and siblings) should not be allowed to see our very young children again (all this over a minor argument occurring at christmas time with my SIL). My parents refuse to get involved, and shes taking that refusal to "take sides" as implicitly "taking the other side".

I also have her on recording using racist words to refer to my SIL, and repeatedly calling her a "whore"."

All of that,a court isn't going to care about. You can use recordings to catch dishonesty however,and that would hurt her.

If you have her recorded saying one thing,and then find out she was lying and have proof,that's a way a recording will help.

Or,if she rages at the kids,calls them names,etc.,, that would definately work in your favor.

Let me ask this.Is verbal abuse considered domestic violence in your state?In mine it is and you could have called the police on her for doing so.Does it ever get so loud that it wakes the kids up?

[smiley gladhands]

no, it never gets that loud that it wakes the kids. I refuse to raise my voice and yell at her, and generally try to get away from the conversation before loud screaming begins. I honestly am not sure if verbal abuse is considered domestic violence in NY.

Would/Could she really automatically just get full custody? My children mean the world to me, and i cant imagine living without them. I'm a good dad and i have a great relationship with my children.

[marbleloser]

She "could" get full custody,but she'll need to prove that she deserves it and you don't.It also depends on how much you're willing to fight.I'd recommend you stop accepting legal advice from your stbx.Just because she says it,doesn't make it so.Mine tried that "I'll have full custody and you'll only see the kids on weekends" crap too.She learned quick that I was willing to fight when I had her served and asked for primary.I have good reason to ask for primary though,and I'll have to prove it,which is where documentation comes in.

In alot of cases,you can get joint custody.That doesn't necessarily mean "equal time",but that you each "share" physical and legal custody of the children.If I were you,I'd at least go for equal time(50/50),joint physical,and joint legal.

You'll need to prove that you're capable of caring for the children,on your own.If you can get 50/50 and for some reason the situation changes (say she starts dating a felon and has the kids around him),you need to prove that you deserve more time,and go back to court for such.

It's not as cut and dry as you think it is.It wasn't for me either.It's a long process when custody issues are included.Think at least 1 year or more.

[smiley gladhands]

thanks marble, you're extremely helpful.

I  have on many occasions taken days off to spend with the kids, which includes diaper changing/taking to potty, handling naps & meals, bedtime, etc. Additionally, there has been a couple of occassions where she took a weeklong business trip, and i took the week off to handle the kids myself.

My big concerns - (1) Her job is less demanding than mine, so she is usually the first one home from work and technically spends a little more time with them. (2) Both her parents are retired, and take primary care of the children during the day while we are at work. I feel like this would weigh heavily against me. I still do see them on the weeknights when i get home, and weekends are 100% children time - i dont go out with buddies, dont go off to play golf or something, nothing like that.

[marbleloser]

"I  have on many occasions taken days off to spend with the kids, which includes diaper changing/taking to potty, handling naps & meals, bedtime, etc. Additionally, there has been a couple of occassions where she took a weeklong business trip, and i took the week off to handle the kids myself."

This would be good info to have in a journal.Time,dates,etc.,,If you don't have one,start now.

Her parents being caregivers while you're both at work doesn't mean she's caring for them.It just means that the grandparents are capable of caring for the kids.You'll still want the gp's in the kids lives,right? So,that's no biggie.

Her job being less demanding might hurt some,but she apparantly goes on business trips that take her away from your kids,so that may be a wash.

How often does she go on trips? What about you? Do you have to go away as well?

Are your parents able to help with the kids?Do they?

One more thing.Can you reduce your time at work so that you're able to be home earlier?She may complain about money not coming in,but the court will look at it as you regarding your children more than money.

[smiley gladhands]

Yes, my parents help whenever they can - they both still work, so its harder. Shes constantly complaining that her parents do more than mine... .  but mine live further away, and just dont have the ability to be over everyday, as they both have fulltime jobs. They do come over usually at least one day on the weekend to see the kids. Additionally, my mom is a teacher, so during the summer months, she will typically watch the children 2 days per week and she works part-time as a tutor.

She typically goes away on 1 business trip per year. I typically go away maybe 2 or 3 times a year... .  so a little more than she does, but i wouldnt classify either one of us as traveling extensively.

As far as my work schedule goes - short answer, yes. I have an extremely hellacious january & february at work, that calls for long hours. The other 10 months of the year are pretty flexible... .  i can leave earlier, work from home from time to time, and i have something like 30 personal days at my disposal. Since the calendar hit march, i've already begun leaving work earlier, making sure i get home in time to help put the kids to bed, etc.

[marbleloser]

That's good and what you need to focus on.Your RS with the kids.You say you're there in time to put the kids to bed,but her attorney is going to ask why you aren't there earlier,to spend play time with them,eat with them,etc.,,He/she's going ask who does this most often.Who feeds them breakfast,lunch,dinner?Where do you take them?Do you take them by yourself or is your wife there also?

This is an uphill battle for men.We're generally the "providers" in the family,and women are "caretakers".Well,the court cares about who is the caretaker,because they can just take the money you make,give it to her,and she's now the provider as well.

With young children and toddlers,it's even more difficult,unless you're doing most of the caretaking,which also means you won't be able to work as much.

[broken3]

just my two cents. I bought a pocket recorder for 60 bucks. Comes with software so yuou can store in the computer. Whenever around my ex. It is always on. I also used it with my children. I then transcribed the real bad stuff. Drinking, boyfriend, being left alone, no heat, hungry etc. etc. the computer tells you the exact time and second on what day. Anytime there was a question. I simply looked up the date, time. and could read it to the judge. And if she wanted to hear the recording. I could go straight to that specific time and hit play.

Also document. Document. And did I say document. I mean everything. From the times you pickup, to dropoff. The times she takes and drops off. And typically I was able to prove how responsible I was and how irresponsible she was.

  I requested a petition for immediate occupancy of the marital home. And she was evicted in November. I now have primary custody of all 3 of my children ever since.

  To this date she attempts to challenge that and have it overturned. But I had proof that she was only completing 19% of court ordered visitation. So the judge looks at that and says if you cant complete the schedule we give you. How do you expect to get full custody maam?

  The look on her face was priceless. She truly believed she had complete control of everything and could do whatever she wanted to.

Heck. Whos going to believe the father over the mother?

Surprise... .  The judge will if you show every effort and put the documentation in place.

[smiley gladhands]

thanks Broken... .  ive begun keeping a journal that i store at my office so she won't find it. Every morning, i write in the journal about the previous day. I've also been uploading my recordings to my work PC, and will be buying a flash drive as an additional backup for the conversations. I have not begun transcribing any of the conversations, but will do so if and when i need to.

[momtara]

I have my stbx on tape admitting to telling lies to law enforcement, and such.  My lawyer said that the other side could object to the tapes and not allow them.  This is frustrating to me.  It seems that often, the good evidence can't make it to court.  But maybe she's wrong.  She's not the most experienced lawyer.

She said emails are better.

[marbleloser]

The judge "may not" allow them,but a CE will listen to them.A judge isn't going to read a journal either,but a CE will.

[momtara]

oh, thanks - excellent to know.

i wish my lawyer would tell me these things. time for a new (more expensive) one.

[marbleloser]

You're welcome.Lawyers don't tell you anything!lol It's their job to represent your case and throw in any legalities.It's our job to do the legwork.Read up on the process of divorce.It's nothing like I envisioned it.

Also,the judge is there to make a decision with the facts presented to him.That's it! He doesn't care if you missed something or your atty did or your stbx does.If you don't ask for something,you won't get it.

[krista8521]

They do help to a extent, but the courts also feel you have a unfair upper advantage because you are not responding in any way that would make you look bad and they know that.

example:

Ex-I think you are a despicable bag of donkey doo and you suck as a human being

you-why thank you for that insight on the kind of person I am, I will reconsider my actions in the future now that you have informed me of this.

hahaha, its exaggerated but see what I mean?

[broken3]

Smiley,

  It should never be presented as you have a recording and evidence.

It should always be presented in such a way to make them show who they really are.

Case in point.

" your honor on Feb -- 2013 Mrs. such and such stated she would damage my reputation by doing xxxx.

She additionally stated on Jan --2013 she would do such and such. And would do harm by doing such."

  The oposing side would say they never did same. Then you pull out your transcripts. Present it to the judge. And request if the judge would like to hear you would be glad to play. You usually never even have to get to that part. And the opposition has just shown that they lie under oath.

Her raging on you and the kids are the only thing that matters.


Whammo. All credibility is lost by the opposition.

Marbleloser is partially correct in that if you request the judge hear or read it upfront. They probably will not.

That is why you allow them to trip themselves up.( they always do). Then ask the judge if they would like to see and hear proof.

Also, verbal screaming is considered abuse in New york. I grew up there.

My advice. get a PFA. And have her served requesting full custody. DO NOT request partial or 50/50. It shows that you only want to be in it for the part time responsibility. If you request full and get 50/50 then so be it. But if you request 50/50. You may only get the typical Wed. and EOW.

[smiley gladhands]

thanks for the tips guys... .  ive only been recording a couple days and am mid-silent treatment. I need to get her on tape admitting she'll lie to a judge and law enforcement, then i will feel freer to pounce.

[broken3]

Smiley,

We all do and say things in the heat of the moment. Do not make the mistake of having one or two episodes. Be patient and document numerous occasions over time. If they are as frequent as with my ex. Its much easier to present it by saying that it has happened 20 times. Which shows much more validity. Than just one or two times.

  I.E. heat of the moment perception.

[catnap]

I suggest you read Splitting / Protecting yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or a Narcissist It is an excellent resource. 

Also think about setting up some consultations with Family Law attorneys.  Some will do it for free and some charge a fee for the initial consultation.  This will let you know what to expect in your county, what is needed to gain primary custody, etc.  It is important to get an attorney who is familiar with handling high-conflict divorces.  The added bonus to doing consults is that she cannot use any attorney you have consulted with.  Bill Eddy's book has a section on what to ask a perspective attorney, or you can start a thread on questions to ask.

[smiley gladhands]

from your guys experience -is it typical to have a separate "family law" attorney handle custody representation? or is it usually the same laywer that would handle a divorce.

[broken3]

Family law and divorce attorneys are usually the same. Most divorce claims have children and custody issues.

Important to ask questions. Do not be shy. Your future is at stake. And so is your childrens.

My wife hired two large law firms. (they both requested to stop representing her) and is now looking for a third lawyer. She has spent about 20K so far. I have a local lawyer familiar with the law. My lawyer is a real b---h. But thats just what i want. I spent around 1/5th of what she did and have won everything so far.

The main reason... .  I do all the documentation and legwork.

All my lawyer has to do is present the documentation and research and not take any crap!

[momtara]

What kind of documentation did you submit? It's always good to know how people document things.

[broken3]

Copies of checks showing who paid the bills and doctor visits and supplies and clothes.

My checkbook and bank statements as opposed to her.

A search for a place to live.

Job opportunities that my spouse could have had. But refused to as she had a relationship with one of her bosses.

A text log for the past two years from my spouse showing that I was the best husband (she said) and flipouts in text.

I put little tab markers on the pages where she said I was a great husband and father. and then a different color for the flip out texts.

Again different tab for requests to cook, clean, take kids places. You get the idea.

Texts from kids stating moms flipping out.

Texts from kids stating she is throuwing me out.

Overdue inspection on car.

Cancelled insurance on car for non payment.

Exact court ordered times of visitation. when and if she arrived. And who she took and for how long. Showed the court she only completed 19% of court ordered visitation.

Photos of filthy house.

Photos of broken keys in doors so no one could get in home. Including kids.

Photos of laundry piled 4 feet high.

Photos of grass 12 inches tall.

Photos of dirty dishes 2 feet high.

Photos of those stick figures that are in suv windows. She scraped all 3 kids, the cat and herself off leaving me and the dog.

Photos that she took down all my pictures in the house.

A posterboard she made of a collage of the entire family without me.

Probably a dozen more that don't come to mind right now.

As you can see. It shows who is trying to alienate the kids. Hurt the kids. And who is not taking care of the kids and home.

[momtara]

Thanks.

[livednlearned]

just my two cents. I bought a pocket recorder for 60 bucks. Comes with software so yuou can store in the computer. Whenever around my ex. It is always on. I also used it with my children. I then transcribed the real bad stuff. Drinking, boyfriend, being left alone, no heat, hungry etc. etc. the computer tells you the exact time and second on what day. Anytime there was a question. I simply looked up the date, time. and could read it to the judge. And if she wanted to hear the recording. I could go straight to that specific time and hit play.

Also document. Document. And did I say document. I mean everything. From the times you pickup, to dropoff. The times she takes and drops off. And typically I was able to prove how responsible I was and how irresponsible she was.

  I requested a petition for immediate occupancy of the marital home. And she was evicted in November. I now have primary custody of all 3 of my children ever since.

  To this date she attempts to challenge that and have it overturned. But I had proof that she was only completing 19% of court ordered visitation. So the judge looks at that and says if you cant complete the schedule we give you. How do you expect to get full custody maam?

  The look on her face was priceless. She truly believed she had complete control of everything and could do whatever she wanted to.

Heck. Whos going to believe the father over the mother?

Surprise... .  The judge will if you show every effort and put the documentation in place.

There is interesting research out there about dads getting primary custody -- asking for it is actually a big part of it. Many dads don't ask for it. And being a primary caregiver prior to the divorce goes a long way. Can you create a spreadsheet (for yourself at first) to look carefully at who is the primary caregiver? You might be surprised to find out that even though she spends more time with them, you come out even based on the tasks you do and the time you spend on the weekends. If you can document it, and other people can attest to it, that can also go a long way for you.

About the recordings -- I never used mine except when my L told N/BPDx's L that I had a substantial log detailing what he drank and when, and what happened, plus two videos. Just the mention of that evidence seemed to help my case.

Also, do you think emailing your stbx might elicit some of the same things she says so you have it in text? During silent treatments, N/BPDx would email me all kinds of wacky things. Telling me I would end up in section 8 housing, no judge would grant me custody because of the kind of person I was, if he divorced me I would be destitute and he would destroy me, I was such a c**t, a wh@r*, blah blah blah.

[smiley gladhands]

nah, she usually doesnt go nuts via text or email... . we live together, so we dont send each other much texts... . time to time i get an email where responses to simple questions are things like "what the heck is your problem" and calling me stupid and what not... . not sure if that is bad enough to really mean anything.

[smiley gladhands]

nah, she usually doesnt go nuts via text or email... . we live together, so we dont send each other much texts... . time to time i get an email where responses to simple questions are things like "What the heck is your problem" and calling me stupid and what not... . not sure if that is bad enough to really mean anything.

i should say, her emails say "what the f***" is your problem"... .