Feel free to say I told you so.

[Oncebitten]

Well to those that advised I go nc, and just move on.  I didn't listen, I tried to make it work again.  And did for a couple of weeks.  Really was great. Everything you could ask for in a relationship.  Should have seen it coming. I know the pattern, good moves to great.  And then she cant get enough of me.  Usually when I feel really good is when she pulls the rug out.  Everything is simply perfect, then it starts to change.  I do my best to navigate whats coming but I can't.  I can try to validate, listen to every word.  But any answer I give is wrong and before you know, she hates me and never wants to speak to me again.  Out the door she goes to god knows where I am a left to wonder how it all went so wrong.  And how it is that no matter what... .I can't fix a damn thing.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[anothercasualty]

And how it is that no matter what... .I can't fix a damn thing.

Many of us have to learn this lesson (over and over, in some cases  )

You can't fix her. Only she can fix her.

I can relate. I allowed myself to be sucked back in again. It lasted two months, but ended the same as before. None of my friends were surprised.

[Oncebitten]

Idk its the same issue i have fought for months.  She said it was forgiven and was ready to move forward and we did for a few weeks.  Then it all fell apart.  She saw one thing and it all came back in full force.  I tried to talk to her but the more i talk the worse it gets. Always been that way... .cant just leave it alone.  And now she is gone

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey Once-

I'm sorry that happened, you really were trying to make it work and it was feeling good for a while, as you say.  And some folks do make relationships work on some level with borderlines, there's no universal "way".  And now, if you look at this as an opportunity, how can you use this?  What did you learn?  What's good about it?  If you've now decided to detach, how can you use what you've just been through as motivation to help you with that?

And how it is that no matter what... .I can't fix a damn thing.

I'm sure you can fix a lot of things, but one thing none of us can "fix", not even the borderline, is the disorder.  Part of detaching is accepting that, it is what it is; can you move towards that a little?

[Oncebitten]

FHTH

I just realized that i dont think I have any other choice.  She is gone again and its because of the same thing as before.  Something very small triggered it.  The worst part is and why I have to detach is she gets upset and I cant just let her be.  I am so compelled to fix the problem it just makes it worse. Im not personally equipped to be what she needs me to be, and as much as I try to be I don't think I will ever be.  My efforts to fix things make them worse, and I dont know if I can acctually just let stuff go and not try to fix it.

[eprogeny]

I am so compelled to fix the problem it just makes it worse.

I relate on so many levels to this.  The thing I've had to come to accept is that for our BPD partners, the relationship will always and inevitably reach a state of such fundamental brokenness that there isn't any possible way to fix it. 

All healthy relationships have conflict.  It's normal.  What is not normal is doing what they always want to do with it - which is to just sweep it under the rug like it never happened.  I realize now what a gigantic red flag that was when she first started behaving that way - and she tried to do it again a couple of weeks ago but I made it very clear I am not allowing that anymore.  It didn't stop her from trying to do the same old cycle, though.  Truth is, as appealing as that may be to them, any non-BPD person knows that this sort of situation eventually is a setup for a no-win.  Non-BPD people understand this.  People with BPD don't.  They won't address any real conflict for any real solution.

Our problem is we can't let it go.  Their problem is they can't face it.

That becomes a toxic mix.  Until it is possible to have healthier interaction the relationship is doomed - and that's what we understand, it's why we try to fix the smaller broken things before they become big ones, and it's why we never can.  They aren't looking to fix anything on any meaningful level.  They're only looking for the quick fix rather than the real one - like an alcoholic looks for the next bottle of liquor instead of seeking sobriety.    The more we push for the actual solution, the more they hate us. 

That's what BPD is - that's what BPD does - and there's literally nothing we can do about it.

As much as I care for my BPDexgf, and as much as I wish I could just sweep it all under the rug - that's the exact behavior we did for the last 4 years and I refuse to keep doing the same thing expecting a different result.  Yeah, I have my issues - but that's why I've been in therapy for my PTSD for the last few years.  I've become more capable of handling emotional intimacy while she's continued to run from her truth and to self-sabatoge in the biggest ways. 

Instead of getting the help she really does need, she pretends the implication is an insult or a condemnation and makes herself out to be the victim of emotional abuse - when the exact opposite is true.  It's easier for her, afterall, to invent all manner of lies to make me the bad guy rather than to own her own behaviors or to accept that all the chaos she feels and inflicts is the result of her mental illness. 

BPD is sinister that way.  It messes them up just enough to make them so believable and the whole time they're lying to themselves and to everyone around them about the truth: the reason they hate themselves is because they know they're not the person they're presenting to the world.  They want to be that person, but they consistently choose to be the most beautifully deceptive monsters on the planet, instead. 

My ex will never get the help she truly does need.  Her narcissism has become a path she's chosen to embrace rather than correct - and in a way that's been a godsend for me.  Without seeing this side of her I might never have reached this point of going total no contact.  It's much harder to walk away from the hermit/waif than it is to walk away from the witch/queen, I'll say that.

I'm so sorry that you had another recycle with your BPDex.  I am hoping this time around you are getting closer to the closure you need - and that you'll see you're not the one to blame for her incapability.

It is a far better thing to walk away from her for good and to concentrate on yourself than it is to be part of that toxic cycle again. 

[Oncebitten]

I love her and would do anything for her.  And I tried to be understanding and validating.  But I can't keep having the same arguments after I  was told that it was over and done with and forgiven.   The back and forth is exhausting, the I love you followed by I hate you. I have poured everything into her and the r/s for so long and then get accused of doing nothing and not even trying.

The hipocrasy eats me alive, everything I do is the worst and she is blameless.  She demands we have hard talks but when I try to she tells me I am just avoiding the real issues.  I get so turned around, I question my own sanity. Things I say I said are lies.  It has just worn me down to nearly nothing.  And for what?   Brief moments of happiness

[Kelli Cornett]

I'm so sorry. It's not your fault and sounds like you really tried.

[Oncebitten]

How do you cope/deal with everything being great and turning into a massivr train wreck in a couple of hours?

[sad but wiser]

She is toxic for you.  An addiction.  You just want to fix it and get back to the sweetness offered at the beginning, the dream come true, the soulmate.  Anything less seems passionless.
If this sounds familiar, you are not alone.
  You had to try.  No one here will say, "I told you so."  Most of us have done the same thing.

[fromheeltoheal]

How do you cope/deal with everything being great and turning into a massivr train wreck in a couple of hours?

By realizing, and more importantly accepting, that a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation is an official trait of the disorder, and it's triggered by intimacy, so the closer you get the more it will happen.  Then at that point you have two choices: learn some tools to help you deal with it, if you're both committed to the relationship, or let it go, let her go, and detach.

Not an easy choice to make Once, neither one feels good, but one might feel better than the other, and it's helpful to put your needs first right now.

[Oncebitten]

Its crazy to believe that someone you feel is your soulmate can be so hateful and cruel.  Try yes i had to try.   But this isn't the first time... .not even sure how many times this makes at this point... .10+ would be a good place to start.  So yeah "I told you so" is apt.

[sad but wiser]

To answer your train wreck question... .you get angry, you cry some, you get angry.  You swear off relationships forever.  You fight the temptation to call or text... .you feel stupid for trying... .you feel like punching something, you cut all your bushes back to nubs, you write a journal, you cut off your hair, you fight the urge to read the 10 texts they left in 6 minutes, you watch part of a movie, go to the fridge, decide you aren't hungry, read 48 posts by others like yourself, then you realize... .she (he) isn't normal.  And that's about all you can do.
It just takes time.

[Oncebitten]

Fhth

I have been committed to the r/s.  More than committed, its been my purpose for months.  Problem is she is ready to jump ship at the drop of a hat.  I know that i cant control more than 50%... .but even if I could control 75% I dont think it would be enough.  I have done everything i can to fix the problems I created.  But its never enough, or I did it in the wrong fashion.  

I guess thats what is the worst, ITS NEVER ENOUGH... .doesnt matter what.  Just never enough

[fromheeltoheal]

But this isn't the first time... .not even sure how many times this makes at this point... .10+ would be a good place to start.  So yeah "I told you so" is apt.

It's also helpful to look at our part Once, especially with that amount of recycling.  This article speaks to where you are and you might find it helpful:

[Oncebitten]

Sad but wiser

Thank you... .like I said this isnt new for me.  Stupid me I have been given this lesson too many times already.   Then she comes back into my life and I can't welcome her back fast enough

[Oncebitten]

Fhth

Link doesn't work but if its to suggest that I am codependent... .I have no doubt.  Normal and healthy might hang around for a 2nd go but only someone who is a fool or has their own issues  (looking in mirror) does this this many times.

[fromheeltoheal]

Sorry Once, broken link, so here's the article:

Relationship Recycling Takes Two

Excessive relationship recycling, or break-up/make-ups are common in some “BPD” relationships. 70% of our members having unsuccessful relationships report having had 4 or more break-up/make-ups. 23% report an unbelievable 10 or more.

Recycling is about both parties. The real dynamic is that both parties return to a place they feel is safer/easier than being apart.  So, in effect, the couple struggles to work together and each struggles in weakness to be apart or alone.

Living with excessive recycling is an unhealthy place to be. When you repeatedly recycle, clearly something is very wrong.

Recycling can become the “norm” in a relationship. with both parties can becoming conditioned to it after a while. Accepting this “norm” is the ultimate boundary violation – you are not treating each other well - you are not treating yourself well.

If you have been through more than 3 break-up/make-ups in your relationship, it's important to recognize that it is unlikely to get better if something doesn't significantly change.  Repeated recycling will not go away on its own. One person can’t fix it unilaterally (stop the breakups).

Is Recycling Always Unhealthy?

Not always.  Let's break this down. Sixty-two (62%) of relationships do not end at the first break-up. For a wife to have second thoughts about a divorce is normal. Sometimes our own self doubt makes us want to try one more time. Sometimes one partner promises to change something. To reconnect with a person after a break-up 1-2 times is really not all that unusual.

When there are more than 3-4 "break-up/make-up" cycles in a relationship there is something seriously wrong.  And when this happens, the likelihood of a positive outcome are greatly diminished.

Why do we get caught up in cycles?

These are the questions we need to answer if we ever want the break-up/make-up cycle to end. Are we returning to this person because we are in love with them and the relationship has a chance, or are we returning to this person because they feel safe?

* Are we afraid to be alone?

* Do we have our own abandonment issues?

* Are we fearful that we cannot find someone as good as them again?

* Are we fearful of the next step (dating, financial issues, etc.)


Why do our "BPD" partners recycle?

It is hard for us to understand why our partner is expressing an interest after they left in a torrent of bad behavior (e.g., cheating, raging and telling us that we are a horrible people). "If they don't love me, why this?" The answer is much of the same reasons as we have... .plus a few others that are related to the disorder.

* Inability to deal with acute loneliness

* Severe insecurity / needing validation (from someone that highly values them)

* Shame / wanting to prove they are a good person (to us or themselves)

* Immaturity/Manipulation/Control - the break-up was just a way to get their way.


If You Want to Stay in the Relationship

The ability to end break-up/make-up cycles and stay in a relationship takes a deep commitment by both partners. This often means structured rehabilitation (counseling, workshops, classes, self-help programs, etc.).

If you are both open to restarting the relationship, remember the problem isn't going to go away without work. Hope is not enough (on both sides).

You may believe that your partner has changed, will change, is sincere this time, will get into treatment if only you come back. They may believe that the you changed. But unless there is specific work on a serious level going on - don't count on it.

If You Want to Exit in Relationship

The power to end the relationship and end the toxic break-up/make-up cycles lies with you... .not your partner. Don't avocate your responsibility here. It may be comforting to blame our partner - but it is simply denial on our part. This is a common problem in the last stage of BPD relationships.  You need to step up and deal with it - as hard as it is. And, it is hard. Just look at these numbers of break-up/make-up cycles in a recent bpdfamily.com poll.

Number of break-up/make-up cycles
--------------------------
None
12.8% had 1-2 recycles before it ended (not unheathy)
14.9% had 3-5 recycles before it ended (unhealthy)
38.3% had 6 - 10 recycles before it ended (very unhealthy)
8.5% had 10 or more recycles before it ended (wow)
23.4% still haven't broken up (still recycling)

If you are truly finished with the relationship, if you have expressed this to the ex and he/she continues to contact you, it is best to go to reduce your frequency, timing, and the personal nature of your communications (controlled contact) - possibly all the way to ending it  (no contact). If you stop engaging the other person will usually move on. It's not more complex than this.

Is He/She Sincere or is this just More Toxic Recycling?

Many of us spend much time trying to figure out if the attempted "re-engagement" is sincere by the other party.

To understand this, it's important to understand the emotional make-up of someone with BPD. They are not crazy/insane - their behaviors are often predictable - especially if we understand the disorder and their history with us. So it is reasonable to accept that the person with BPD is sincere in wanting to reconnect. It is important to consider, however,  that pwBPD can be highly impulsive and those impulses can change quickly. So sincerity is not the issue. The issue is whether the person with BPD (as well as you) can follow through with the commitment.

It's also important to look at ourselves and question whether we are doing the same thing;  often we are.

[sad but wiser]

It doesn't matter what she is... .your feelings are real, so your heart will grieve.  This is normal.  It's ok to feel sad and angry.  You want a soulmate and thought she was that.  It is an easy mistake to make.  They seem to "get" everything you think or feel.  Now you are bleeding.  It seems like she will stop the pain.  Then the pain is even worse each time.  You have to work through the pain of loss... .and I know you can. 

[Oncebitten]

I have no idea how to work through the pain.  All I want is for her to talk to me. and the thought of never speaking to her again is crippling

[Oncebitten]

As I sit here and think about her and the relationship I start to wonder if I am crazy myself.  I hate her, or at least I should.  Given how she has treated me, the things she has said to me and what she has called me.  And yet I can't hold on to it.  I think of the bad, hell I have written it down, and read it over and over.  I all I can think is that I love her, I want her in my life.  Her leaving brings more pain than I can bear.  I find myself questioning how I will get through life without her in it.

Is this normal?  Have I lost my mind?  Am I the crazy one?

[Sadly]

Hello Oncebitten
As you know, no one would say I told you so here and anyone who thinks it is wrong. Nearly all of us have done it or wanted to so don't be hard on yourself. I am sorry it didn't work out. Going by my own story this hurts, but hurts less every time it happens and you feel very disappointed and angry with yourself. Don't be please. We are humans not machines. Come on, up you get.    x

[Kelli Cornett]

As I sit here and think about her and the relationship I start to wonder if I am crazy myself.  I hate her, or at least I should.  Given how she has treated me, the things she has said to me and what she has called me.  And yet I can't hold on to it.  I think of the bad, hell I have written it down, and read it over and over.  I all I can think is that I love her, I want her in my life.  Her leaving brings more pain than I can bear.  I find myself questioning how I will get through life without her in it.

Is this normal?  Have I lost my mind?  Am I the crazy one?

What is your biggest fear about losing the attachment?

[heartandwhole]

Hi Oncebitten,

I'm sorry you are in pain again. It's really hard to work through these kinds of patterns. You have recognized that this is a mutual pattern between you and your partner—you both have your parts to play. It isn't easy to stop the cycle; it will require that you change. Are you ready for that, Oncebitten? It's the only control that you have. 

I have been committed to the r/s.  More than committed, its been my purpose for months.  

Making another adult your purpose in life can set you up for some really painful experiences. What do you think you are avoiding by putting so much energy into your partner and her wellbeing?

We're here for you Oncebitten. I know how much you want this to work; you love her to bits. We understand. 

heartandwhole

[C.Stein]

OB,

I am truly sorry you are going through this again. 

The hypocrisy eats me alive

Yes indeed it does and perhaps this is why you continue in this catch-22 relationship?  Give this some deep thought.

[Oncebitten]

Heartandwhole

Its the same story as so many here.   You love them and you know that they are broken and that they need you.  So you try, and it works for a while and then it doesnt.  So you try harder and again life is good for a while.  I have read so much here and everywhere else.  And I know its wrong and I know what happens but I have always thought if I did one thing a little better or poured myself out just a little more... .

[Oncebitten]

C S


What do you mean?  I was talking about how what she does is acceptable but if my behavior resembles the things she does then I become thoughtless, insensitive and a whole slew of words that dont need to be repeated.   Innocent mistakes are personal attacks. 
The only catch22 i find myself in is the relationship itself.  I actually answered a question the other day. Gave her the opposite answer to the one I had given a couple weeks ago I knew she didn't remember the conversation but I did.  Guess what? One question two answers, both wrong.  Pretty sure thats a no win situation.

[C.Stein]

The only catch22 i find myself in is the relationship itself.

Yes, but why?  Think about how the hypocrisy eats at you, how much you want to correct the inaccurate perceptions of you that she projects, how you might get caught in a trap of trying again and again to resolve this internal conflict ... .how you want to resolve it over and over again.

[Oncebitten]

Its not that her perceptions of me are what upset me.  Its how she justifies how she treats me, if she does x its ok because of y.  If I do x, i have no excuse.  None, my behavior while exactly the same as hers, is inexcusable because I am me.

[C.Stein]

Its not that her perceptions of me are what upset me.  Its how she justifies how she treats me, if she does x its ok because of y.  If I do x, i have no excuse.  None, my behavior while exactly the same as hers, is inexcusable because I am me.

Lets look at the rest of that paragraph.

The hipocrasy eats me alive, everything I do is the worst and she is blameless.  She demands we have hard talks but when I try to she tells me I am just avoiding the real issues.  I get so turned around, I question my own sanity. Things I say I said are lies.  It has just worn me down to nearly nothing.  And for what?   Brief moments of happiness

Note the bold.  How do you think this might contribute to the catch-22?

[babyducks]

How do you cope/deal with everything being great and turning into a massivr train wreck in a couple of hours?

by not taking it personally.   this isn't about you.   as much as the topics may be about what you said or did.   or didn't say or didn't do.   this isn't about you.   it's about her projecting her shame onto you.

Hi Oncebitten,

Don't underestimate the amount of shame, self loathing and pain that a person with BPD lives with.  And don't underestimate the lengths they will go to in an attempt to soothe that pain by off loading it on to you.   This is about her inappropriate coping skills.  This is about her trying desperately to feel whole.   Her wants and needs will always surpass yours.   

You did nothing wrong, if you failed to act in ways that reflect your best possible nature, that makes you human, not mean or evil.   

When stuck in a circular argument, (you did this and it hurt me, well you did that and it hurt me too) some one has to be the bigger person and end the argument.   Recognize it won't be her because she is getting something out of the argument.   A place to dump her rage.   

  So you try harder and again life is good for a while.  I have read so much here and everywhere else.  And I know its wrong and I know what happens but I have always thought if I did one thing a little better or poured myself out just a little more... .

I understand that desire.  To give a little more.   To try a little harder.   What I learned was that it didn't much matter how much I gave or how hard I tried.   My partner processes life in a way that creates conflict and reinforces her perceptions that the whole world is out to get her.   That is her world view.    I can't impact that.   

What I can do is take care of me.   Work to protect and understand my own truth.   It's very hard to hold two opposing truths in my head at the same time.   The first is I care for my partner very much.   The second is my partner is so mentally ill she is dangerous for me to be around.   Neither truth cancels the other, neither truth negates the other.   If I want to be around her I have to accept that I will be hurt.   If I don't want to be hurt I need to limit or end contact.    If want to be some where in the middle I have to accept that it will require some mental gymnastics and lots of change for me.

I am sorry you are going through this.   I have come to believe that being in a relationship with a pwBPD means I am still learning.   Learning about me.   There is always more to learn.

hope this helps
ducks

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[sad but wiser]

To work through the grief of a broken heart means being willing to let go of what "should have been" or "could have been" with this person.  I have done it and several of my friends have.  No one died or committed suicide, though that was on the table at times.  We talked each other down it and through it.  For me, it was with God's grace.
  How to begin?  Hold on to one simple realization.
For me it was: "He just has NOTHING to offer."
I could bend over backwards and do a pretzel dance, turn $5 into $5,000 magically.  Juggle 2 babies, 45 dishes and assorted groceries, agree with him on every issue... .and never ever have his love, respect or loyalty.  He didn't have it to give... .he was a black hole.  And I had been a fool.
After that I embraced another truth, and another until I finally saw him for the first time.  The real him.  Entitled, conniving, manipulative and stuck in babyhood.  Someone who could never lose.  Someone who made himself unemployable, who saw his spousal support money as his "benefits" (yes, I paid).  He actually said these things to me, just in contexts where I misinterpreted them and his motivations.  He didn't care to change... .that was my job.
So, that was how I managed, it is a bit different for each of us.  But the steps are the same.
  Start with a simple realization, a fundamental truth, and rebuild your internal compass.
Good luck.

[Oncebitten]

CS

She creates a catch 22... doesnt matter what I do. 

[sad but wiser]

Right.  Now hold that truth.  Write it down, add 5 good examples below.  Write the PROCESS she uses.  Soon you will recognize this.  Good for you.  That's one compass point.

[C.Stein]

She creates a catch 22... doesnt matter what I do.

It takes two to tango OB.  Taking love and sex off the table, what is driving you to keep going back and completing the catch?  

[Oncebitten]

I am tired of being set up to fail.

I am tired of circular arguments that have no resolution and that I can't walk away from either because that makes me a coward.

I am tired of hearing about how I destroyed our relationship by involving myself with another woman after she broke up with me
.
I am tired of caring for her every concern and fear.  Then the moment I need her and its not convenient for her, we need to stand on our own.

I am tired of having her throw her ex in my face just because she knows it hurts me.

[Oncebitten]

CS

If you take love out of the equation... .there is nothing to go back to.  Just believe that I had found "her" the first person to truly get me.  My soulmate, the love of my life.  Thats why I have kept going back.  Thats why I tried as hard as I did.

[sad but wiser]

You are on a learning curve.  Good for you!  It hurts, it is bitter, but eventually you will break through to compassion.  For yourself and for your ex.
You love to feel yourself giving.  You love to feel yourself being heroic.  Well, believe me, a real relationship needs that just as much as an unhealthy one does.  The difference is, a healthy woman will return sweetness and trust instead of insecurity and blame.  A real woman is a reward, not an unending task. A real woman can be pleased, drops old issues and leaves them, and enjoys being there for you.
  Real women are out there.  You must heal first, though.  Don't use a person to heal the wounds.  Let people help you do the healing work.   

[Oncebitten]

A real woman would drop old issues.  She wouldn't look for ways to bring them up.  She wouldn't search for wrong doing.  She would acknowledge that every thing you have done was an attempt to repair the damage you did.  Will she still hurt from time to time yes, will she still get angry with you because of it. Of course, but she would also let go over time and realize that saying I forgive you lets  move forward means just that. 

[C.Stein]

If you take love out of the equation... .there is nothing to go back to.  Just believe that I had found "her" the first person to truly get me.  My soulmate, the love of my life.  Thats why I have kept going back.  Thats why I tried as hard as I did.

I get these feelings OB, I felt the same for my ex, but I think the reasons you keep going back are much more complicated.  This is what I am attempting to dig out of you without leading you to the water so to speak.  

There comes a time when you have to accept love is not enough.  So let's look at the tangible things about the relationship, the things that add to your personal self and enriches your life.  

Can you list the ways she adds to your life, how you benefit personally from being in a relationship with her?

In what way does she truly get you?

What is it about her you truly love?  Be specific.

How does she show her love and caring for you?  Again, be specific.

[Oncebitten]

She has always understood me in a way no one else ever has.  I have always felt accepted with, never been anything about myself, no matter how dark that I felt I couldn't share with her.  And she never judged me for it.

For the first time in my life I had found someone that wanted me around.  Wanted my attention and gave it back to me as fully as I gave to her.

I love her passion for life, how strong she is.  How she doesn't back down. Really do love everything about her, we want so many of the same things in life.  We do fit well together, thats why I have kept going back

[C.Stein]

OB,  I know it is hard but please try to dig deeper than that and answer all the questions.  This is for your benefit, not mine.  

I also will ask you to read what you have written in this thread so far and compare it to what you just wrote.  Do you see any contradictions?

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey Once-

Can I point something out?  First you say:

I am tired of being set up to fail.
I am tired of circular arguments that have no resolution and that I can't walk away from either because that makes me a coward.
I am tired of hearing about how I destroyed our relationship by involving myself with another woman after she broke up with me.
I am tired of caring for her every concern and fear.  Then the moment I need her and its not convenient for her, we need to stand on our own.
I am tired of having her throw her ex in my face just because she knows it hurts me.

And then you say:

I have always felt accepted with, never been anything about myself, no matter how dark that I felt I couldn't share with her.  And she never judged me for it.

Really do love everything about her, we want so many of the same things in life.  We do fit well together, thats why I have kept going back

I understand that place.  C.Stein is asking some great questions that will benefit you when you dig in and answer them.  To add, you're still in the fog, which leads to the confusion above, so I'll reiterate the question are you willing to go 90 days without communicating with her in any way, so you can focus on the answers to C.Stein's questions without her influence?  90 days isn't very long, although your perceptions will change and you'll get some clarity, and then you can make decisions from that place, once you've let the fog clear a little and dug into your own feelings and motivations.  Are you willing to commit to that?

[Oncebitten]

Cs

I understand what you are trying to get me to do a d I do appreciate it.  And yes i realize a lot of what i wrote is a contradiction.  Because both are true, she is supportive and then dissmisses my feelings completely.  She loves me better than I have ever beenoved and then hates me more than I know I deserve.

Its the push/pull the I love/hate you.   Its a constant storm of emotions with her good and bad.

[Oncebitten]

FHTH

Ok lets say I commit to 90 days.  What do I do when she contacts me because you know its coming.  If I just go Nc and ignore her and want to try the r/s again in 90 days I will have most certainly destroyed any chance at reconciliation.

[C.Stein]

OB, IMO you need to take a huge step back here to get some clarity.  

I would like you to write four different pros & cons list when you get a chance.  Be as honest as you can when you do and if you feel comfortable, share them with us.

The Four Pros & Cons Lists:

• For her personality and character
• For what she contributes to the relationship
• For your personality and character
• For what you contribute to the relationship

[fromheeltoheal]

Ok lets say I commit to 90 days.  What do I do when she contacts me because you know its coming.  If I just go Nc and ignore her and want to try the r/s again in 90 days I will have most certainly destroyed any chance at reconciliation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but technically you are not in a committed relationship with her right now yes?  So you say something like "I'm going to do my own thing for a while, please do not contact me" or something to that effect, brief, informative, friendly and firm, and what she does is what she does.  It's about putting your needs first and creating some distance so you can process your emotions without her influence.  It will be difficult but the hardest part is at the beginning and it will get easier.  The other choice is to continue on this roller coaster, which will not change.  It's up to you.

[Oncebitten]

CS

Ok I will do that and put it in a new post.

[Oncebitten]

FHTH

I have told her for a while that I thought I needed to take time and sort myself out.  And She is always supportive of that.  But then I think she feels that I might leave her so she turns on the charm and gets me to come back in some fashion.

[fromheeltoheal]

I have told her for a while that I thought I needed to take time and sort myself out.  And She is always supportive of that.  But then I think she feels that I might leave her so she turns on the charm and gets me to come back in some fashion.

Because she interprets that as abandonment, the worst thing that can happen for a borderline, so she goes into pull mode.  But she only "gets you" to come back because you let her.  Which is why you need time and distance so you can make decisions about what's best for you.  90 days Once.

[sweet tooth]

Usually when I feel really good is when she pulls the rug out. 

But any answer I give is wrong and before you know, she hates me and never wants to speak to me again.  Out the door she goes to god knows where I am a left to wonder how it all went so wrong.  And how it is that no matter what... .I can't fix a damn thing.

Been there. It sucks.

[Oncebitten]

its the absolute worst.  we went from everything being wonderful to absolute hell and being broken up in less than 4 hours.

And I know what we fought about, but I still dont know why it was an issue.  And I guess thats the worst.  I really wish I had done something awful and I could hang my hat on it and say well, you messed up accept the blame and go on.  But right now I am just confused.  I guess thats what gets to all of us non's, it just doesnt make sense.

[JQ]

OB,

Take a deep breath for a moment & let it out slow. You've heard me more than once tell others that on our journey away from our respective BPD r/s we will stumble & fall. We've all been there, you my friend like every other codependent or NON are the eternal optimist. We see the glass as half full ... .always!  This moment for you was no different, you've stumble on your journey & as I've pointed out before and this string of responses on this thread shows that the group will be here for you.

You are again trying to apply logic to a illogical Cluster B Mental Illness ... .case in point. you said, " And I know what we fought about, but I still don't know why it was an issue."  Remember from all the conversations in the group & more importantly all the references here & else where will tell you that BPD will never make sense for you, me or others. They live in their own world of whatever that is, no matter what to a NON it will never make sense. It will ALWAYS be frustrating to us as NONs because all we wanted to do is give them the thing they seek & that is unconditional love. Only they will never be able to fully appreciate it or understand it due to their Cluster B Mental Illness.

It's like trying to reason with a 3 year old toddler, they don't make sense to us but in their world it does. Many times you've read in these forums that someone with BPD & their behavior is very much like a 3 year old toddler, but unfortunately it's never going to change due to the physical defect of neurons & connections within their brain. It's not your fault OB & I really hope you believe this. YOU have to in order to find a better path to walk on your journey.

As promised before the group has picked you up, dusted you off and now the rest is up to you. Choose what path you continue on your journey wisely. Take the guidance given here and move forward. You got this ... .we got you.

J

[Oncebitten]

JQ

Thank you,  thank you all here.  I really owe you all so much.  I would gladly buy everyone of you your drink of choice and thank you all from the bottom of my heart.  You hit the nail on the head, the eternal optimist I am. The glass has always been half full. I always believed that we could fix any of our problems if we were both willing to work on them.  I knew I was, and I believed she was too.  But the r/s itself wasnt the problem.  I could fix every issue she had with me, but she would/will always find something new.  I should have seen the red flags long ago, how she told me that she just didnt know why her r/s failed.  how come men couldn't just love her for who she was.  I love her for who she is, but its not enough.  the goal line never stops moving.  Run as fast as I can... .I will never be enough, because no one will ever be enough.

[sad but wiser]

Easy to say, hard to do.  We all (most of us anyway) want a,soulmate... .someone who can give exactly what we need and to whom we can give effortlessly. 
  The pull of a BPD is their ability in this area.  They have radar!  At first it is incredible, how they seem to be exactly right.  But really, they are literally getting hooks into your soul.  They sink deep.  From then on you live and breathe for that relationship. Breaking feee is incredibly painful.  And you would never want to break free if that person was always that one who wished you well, who lived for you too.  But it isn't that way.  They have their own agenda, and it isn't the same as yours. 

[JQ]

OB,

You are welcome and I will gladly accept your offer of my drink of choice.   

If you want to get Freudian about being a Codependent aka NON, we are indeed the eternal optimist AND we are the perfectionist AND we are the Sheriff with the shiny badge & white hat along with being the Knight in Amor. BUUUT the question to you OB ... .is do YOU know why you are? What has caused you to be the perfectionist? The eternal optimist?  I could offer a suggestion or two or even tell you why I am but that would defeat the purpose of the question.

That question is part of why you're hear & hopefully seeking guidance from a good therapist knowledgeable in NON vs BPD r/s. This has always been about you and NOT your BPD. YOU need to get to a better place my friend for YOU. 

I would suggest getting up early to watch the sunrise tomorrow morning to put perspective on things. I watched just this morning, it's the 4th time this week watching the sun come up over the horizon. A dark sky with pin holes of light from billions of miles away giving way to the warm colors of yellow, orange as the sun starts it's day. Blues & pinks and brighter colors of the morning sun arriving quickly. I enjoy those with a good cup of coffee and I realize that things aren't so bad. I only have so many days on this planet and I want to watch as many of them as I can. I want to enjoy as many as I can with or without someone to share them with I'm going to enjoy everyday. I really wish I could share with all of you a picture of a morning here ... .it is truly amazing.

Get out for that walk and enjoy the fall colors, the smells, the changing temperatures. Go grab a simple bite to eat and take a friend with you just to enjoy the afternoon. You've come along way OB ... .continue to walk your path of knowledge & life experience.  You only have to be good enough for you. When a new r/s comes along AND YES IT WILL ... .you will be wiser. YOU will be happier with yourself, stronger and more confident with yourself and you're well on your way.

J

[Oncebitten]

JQ,

Name the drink and the place... .whiskey man myself.

I know why I am the way I am.  Upbringing, taught from a young age that this is what men do.  The shoulder responsibility, they take care of those weaker than them.  Especially women.  That code was instilled at a young age.  And in addition, hard work is rewarded and that is what people value.  So you find a woman who needs you and tells you she loves you.  Begs you to protect her and save her.  Its just like the drowning woman analogy. Im just the coast guard.  I have no idea why she keeps jumping in.  Just know its my duty to save her.

[Oncebitten]

JQ

Early morning man myself and yes there is nothing as powerful as a sunrise.  It does set life in perspective.   See it come up most mornings, but wont lie been a long time since I thought about it in the context you just gave.

[Curiously1]

You cannot fix her. You cannot fix anybody. It's a losing strategy as much as we would like to keep trying. You cannot control her or where the relationship will go and end. Triggers will always happen unfortunately and unpredictably and this is the way she chose to handle herself this time round. You can only ride the rollercoaster for as long as she lets you... and be prepared to jump off at anytime.

[Turkish]

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