Acceptable Boundary?

[fisher101]

I'm pretty new here so please excuse the improper use of terminology.

My wife has a habit of splitting and one minute I'm perfect and the next minute I'm the worst person in the world. She will then say cruel and nearly unforgivable things. Then when she needs help with something, like how to do something, fix something, etc. I'm talking about not even an hour or day later.

What I've started telling her is that she cannot treat me that way then be audacious enough to expect me to help her. To me it not only isn't ok, but its morally wrong. I've treated people poorly like everyone else, but I don't go then expect them to help. I tell her that I'll help her when she either apologizes without an excuse, or when I'm over whatever she said, but when that is up to me. Until then she can figure it out on her own or call someone else.

I would not withhold help on issues of health or safety, but am I taking this too far? It seems to work in the sense that she apologizes or doesn't ask for the help after a blowup. Seems like the stricter I am with her the better her behavior.

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[Cat Familiar]

This sounds reasonable to me. I’m curious what others think.

I think the boundary is a little squishy in that you are directing her to do something, rather than only saying what you are willing or not willing to do.

It’s worth a try and I’m interested in how it works out.

[fisher101]

Rather than a directive I feel like I'm giving a choice. I can't make her apologize, so she can choose wait for me to get over whatever was said or done. It could be 5 minutes, 5 days, or 5 months.

It seems to work in that since I've been doing it, the outbursts are less frequent and she doesn't come asking for things after behaving badly.

[Cat Familiar]

Sounds like a win. 

[T0M]

I've experienced something similar.

She can go all crazy on me, and five minutes later, wen we go to bed, she accuses me of not wanting her, because I don't approach her for sex. Now i don't mean the make up sex. It is not that I've did something wrong, or we had a 'healthy' heated discussion, and we both feel like making up. It is me who got hit by a ton of bricks, leaving me all chattered and wondering what has happened.

I tried explaining to her that I can not have sex with somebody who insulted me 5 minutes before of being a terrible person. That I was in an emotional shock. But then we get in to an argument that I don't like her anymore. That I think she is fat and disgusting.

And than I find myself in a discussion with her saying she is not fat and that I like her very much. Starting the circle all over again. The hours of sleep I lost...

[Jabiru]

If I find myself in that situation, I say I need an hour of alone time and simply leave the room. I keep my calm, don't say anything I'll regret, and have an hour to enjoy to myself and relax: listen to music, watch TV, go on a walk. Giving an exact time seems to help the other person and builds their trust when you return after the said time. Maybe that could help.

[hands down]

You seem to have the right ingredients. But the real focus on the boundaries is YOUR actions. What YOU will do when the ingredients to the boundary are or aren’t held.

That’s the magic of boundaries, they’re easy to “say”. But how you hold them, the consistency and believe it or not “love” that you show someone when you’re holding them - makes all the difference imo.

And what do I mean by “love”.  A boundary isn’t f**k you, no soup for you. It’s the strange ninja skill of holding unconditional love while also not allowing unconditional access.  Almost like not rewarding a child when they don’t brush their teeth( the rule is to enable not to deconstruct.

Just my $0.02

[Notwendy]

Boundaries are about you, your actions, your values and your needs.

At the very basic level is your health and well being. Sleep is essential.

One boundary is " I will not have emotional conversations at night because I need my sleep"

Doesn't matter what the topic is. It's also not about what she does, it's what you do. Don't participate, say let's talk about this when I am not tired and at night. She might push the boundary- that's expected but if you hold to it, it will become a boundary.

PS  Women grow up seeing fashion magazines with airbrushed models. It's hard to have a confident self image when compared to this, and probably harder for someone with BPD.

You can not convince your wife she's not fat, even if she isn't because the media says differently. Just say a lot of "you are beautiful, you look great" is fine, then, "let's get some sleep". The lessons on validation are good- she's afraid she is fat, you telling her she's not is invalidating. You know better than to agree with her -but say " I know it's tough when women are held to unrealistic pictures, but I prefer a woman who looks real and I prefer you"

[fisher101]

You seem to have the right ingredients. But the real focus on the boundaries is YOUR actions. What YOU will do when the ingredients to the boundary are or aren’t held.

That’s the magic of boundaries, they’re easy to “say”. But how you hold them, the consistency and believe it or not “love” that you show someone when you’re holding them - makes all the difference imo.

And what do I mean by “love”.  A boundary isn’t f**k you, no soup for you. It’s the strange ninja skill of holding unconditional love while also not allowing unconditional access.  Almost like not rewarding a child when they don’t brush their teeth( the rule is to enable not to deconstruct.

Just my $0.02

I'm sorry, I know I"m probably wrong, but I can't agree 100%. In my opinion the only reason to have a boundary is let the other person know that they cannot treat you a certain way, and to establish the rule that there will be consequences.

I will not treat someone well who treats me like crap. Otherwise you're just giving them a license to behave however they want. The love from a pwBPD is very conditional. I also believe that for the most part they don't feel guilt like you or I. If they do feel guilt its in a very selfish way...they feel bad about how their behavior made them look, or opportunities it cost them, but they never feel bad about how they treat others.

. No offense, as I'm pretty new here but I feel like there is a little too much of treating pwBPD as victims who have no responsibility for their actions.

[fisher101]

If I find myself in that situation, I say I need an hour of alone time and simply leave the room. I keep my calm, don't say anything I'll regret, and have an hour to enjoy to myself and relax: listen to music, watch TV, go on a walk. Giving an exact time seems to help the other person and builds their trust when you return after the said time. Maybe that could help.

I can't do that. I'm just consumed with anger during that hour. Plus she will have the gaul to come and ask for help during that hour. Just to "test" me.

[fisher101]

I've experienced something similar.

She can go all crazy on me, and five minutes later, wen we go to bed, she accuses me of not wanting her, because I don't approach her for sex. Now i don't mean the make up sex. It is not that I've did something wrong, or we had a 'healthy' heated discussion, and we both feel like making up. It is me who got hit by a ton of bricks, leaving me all chattered and wondering what has happened.

I tried explaining to her that I can not have sex with somebody who insulted me 5 minutes before of being a terrible person. That I was in an emotional shock. But then we get in to an argument that I don't like her anymore. That I think she is fat and disgusting.

And than I find myself in a discussion with her saying she is not fat and that I like her very much. Starting the circle all over again. The hours of sleep I lost...

In this case I would either quite responding or go sleep on the couch. She's testing you.

[GaGrl]

The purpose of a boundary is to hold true to your values. If you haven't defined your personal values, that is where you need to focus your time and attention.

[fisher101]

The purpose of a boundary is to hold true to your values. If you haven't defined your personal values, that is where you need to focus your time and attention.

I don't really know what this means to be honest.

What is so bad with saying, "if you treat me badly I will not help you or talk to you until your behavior improves"?

I refuse to be a punching bag for someone with BPD.

The resources for boundaries on this site need to be more specific.

[GaGrl]

Boundaries begin from personal values. Those values ground us in what we will or will not tolerate.

So if your person nap value is -- "I treat people with respect, and I expect the same level of respect from them" -- then your boundary might be:

" If I am treated with distespect, I will walk away from the interaction from this person."

It could get much more specific, depending on the situation.

You CAN NOT control what someone else does. You can only control what you do when someone crosses a boundary based on your values.

What are your values?

( This could take some time to define.)

[fisher101]

Boundaries begin from personal values. Those values ground us in what we will or will not tolerate.

So if your person nap value is -- "I treat people with respect, and I expect the same level of respect from them" -- then your boundary might be:

" If I am treated with distespect, I will walk away from the interaction from this person."

It could get much more specific, depending on the situation.

You CAN NOT control what someone else does. You can only control what you do when someone crosses a boundary based on your values.

What are your values?

( This could take some time to define.)

I'd modify that in my case to "If I am disrespected I will not resume interaction until I feel like it or I get an apology that I feel is sincere and acceptable"

While I might not be able to control someone's actions, I can certainly have some influence on them. Otherwise this person is making a choice not to have me around.

[GaGrl]

Focus on what is YOUR choice and what is the other person's choice. That is fundamental to what is within your control or not.

If you are holding out for an apology at all costs, it could be your version of control. Have you considered that?

[fisher101]

Focus on what is YOUR choice and what is the other person's choice. That is fundamental to what is within your control or not.

If you are holding out for an apology at all costs, it could be your version of control. Have you considered that?

Gonna be honest, I don't understand the question. What is the flaw in my approach? Sometimes I'll hold out for an apology, sometimes I'll "get over it." I don't understand why I have to tolerate horrible behavior from a pwBPD? All I am doing is setting ground rules if they want to have me in their life.

[Jabiru]

I can't do that. I'm just consumed with anger during that hour. Plus she will have the gaul to come and ask for help during that hour. Just to "test" me.

Maybe try it some time, even if you don't think you can. It has the double benefit of (1) you not being near her so you aren't tempted to yell at her, argue, etc. thereby setting a good example for her, and (2) you'll be away so she won't be able to bother you during that time. If your anger is that intense, maybe talking with a therapist could help so you're able to compose yourself and move on. Has staying angry helped? This article may be of interest.

Gonna be honest, I don't understand the question. What is the flaw in my approach? Sometimes I'll hold out for an apology, sometimes I'll "get over it." I don't understand why I have to tolerate horrible behavior from a pwBPD? All I am doing is setting ground rules if they want to have me in their life.

I look at it that you have complete control over your thoughts and behavior (maybe not 100%, but with practice you can get close). It's your mind and body. You don't have control over others' thoughts and behavior. Yes, you can try to influence them but it is miles away from the level of control you have over yourself. If you make yourself wait for someone else to complete  some magic ritual (in this case, apologize), you're purposely stopping yourself from getting on with your life. You're willfully giving them control. Why? Why would you put your life on hold, waiting for someone with a mental disorder to somehow think logically and apologize? Be the strong one and move on. That's not to say you should keep letting them walk over you. That's where your boundaries/limits come in. Change scenarios to protect yourself from verbal abuse or other unhealthy relationship patterns. Use your mind and creativity. When do those moments happen? At a certain time of day, during a certain activity, or just during free time? Change your schedule, behavior, etc. to minimize those moments from happening, and if/when they do, use your boundaries to ask it to stop and leave the room (or building) if it continues.

As you likely noticed, a relationship with a person with BPD is a kind of special needs relationship. A normal mindset may not work, so it will take time for you to get used to this mindset shift that many of us here have found to work best. I recommend the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist for a fuller picture.

Does this clear some things up? What are your thoughts?

[fisher101]

Maybe try it some time, even if you don't think you can. It has the double benefit of (1) you not being near her so you aren't tempted to yell at her, argue, etc. thereby setting a good example for her, and (2) you'll be away so she won't be able to bother you during that time. If your anger is that intense, maybe talking with a therapist could help so you're able to compose yourself and move on. Has staying angry helped? This article may be of interest.
I look at it that you have complete control over your thoughts and behavior (maybe not 100%, but with practice you can get close). It's your mind and body. You don't have control over others' thoughts and behavior. Yes, you can try to influence them but it is miles away from the level of control you have over yourself. If you make yourself wait for someone else to complete  some magic ritual (in this case, apologize), you're purposely stopping yourself from getting on with your life. You're willfully giving them control. Why? Why would you put your life on hold, waiting for someone with a mental disorder to somehow think logically and apologize? Be the strong one and move on. That's not to say you should keep letting them walk over you. That's where your boundaries/limits come in. Change scenarios to protect yourself from verbal abuse or other unhealthy relationship patterns. Use your mind and creativity. When do those moments happen? At a certain time of day, during a certain activity, or just during free time? Change your schedule, behavior, etc. to minimize those moments from happening, and if/when they do, use your boundaries to ask it to stop and leave the room (or building) if it continues.

As you likely noticed, a relationship with a person with BPD is a kind of special needs relationship. A normal mindset may not work, so it will take time for you to get used to this mindset shift that many of us here have found to work best. I recommend the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist for a fuller picture.

Does this clear some things up? What are your thoughts?

Thanks it does clarify some things.

I do need to clarify something though. I don't just sit around and wait for an apology, I do just kind of go about my business. Maybe an example would help? If she acts out and treats me badly, she will then often come to me and ask for help within an hour or so. Like the other day she asked for her help with her computer. I refused with the explanation that I would not help someone who had just been cruel to me unless I'm given time to get over it (and I might not ever get over it) or a sincere apology. She can then choose to do apologize or not, just like I can choose what to do or not to do. I am not her slave or punching bag. I was a doormat for 10+ years but those days are over. She can refuse to apologize, leave, stonewall, etc, but I will not roll over on this. The ball is in her court.

I'm honestly past the point of caring why she does what she does. It's been hell. I feel like my behavior overall, and I'm certainly not a saint, is more or less acceptable. So I don't feel like I should have to change much.

Maybe I'm missing the point of these books and the resources on this site, but it seems to me that almost all of it is an explanation (an excuse) for the horrible behavior of pwBPD.  Almost none of it is focused on stopping the bad behavior. I understand it as me having to accept this behavior and live with it. I feel like the general consensus is that pwBPD are assigned some sort of victim status and I don't agree with that.

I don't think I can shift my mindset. I look at relationship and a give and take arrangement and right now I get next to nothing from this. Now I know many won't agree with my feeling, but I'm just being honest. The more I learn about BPD, the less tolerant I am of it. Why? Because I'm 99% convinced that she doesn't actually care whatsover in any more than the most selfish and self-serving way.

[Cat Familiar]

I don't just sit around and wait for an apology, I do just kind of go about my business.

This is exactly what we advise. 

If she acts out and treats me badly, she will then often come to me and ask for help within an hour or so. Like the other day she asked for her help with her computer. I refused with the explanation that I would not help someone who had just been cruel to me unless I'm given time to get over it (and I might not ever get over it) or a sincere apology.

This seems a reasonable approach to me. How has it been working?

I'm honestly past the point of caring why she does what she does. It's been hell. I feel like my behavior overall, and I'm certainly not a saint, is more or less acceptable. So I don't feel like I should have to change much.

It’s not about you changing; it’s about figuring out what works and what doesn’t, and doing more of the former and less of the latter.

Maybe I'm missing the point of these books and the resources on this site, but it seems to me that almost all of it is an explanation (an excuse) for the horrible behavior of pwBPD.  Almost none of it is focused on stopping the bad behavior. I understand it as me having to accept this behavior and live with it. I feel like the general consensus is that pwBPD are assigned some sort of victim status and I don't agree with that.

PwBPD feel like victims and can use that to victimize others. They don’t get a pass for bad behavior. What they do get, however, is the realization that they are fundamentally emotionally damaged in a way that many will never recover from. It’s like being in a relationship with a special-needs person who feels tremendous shame and self-loathing.

That said, some can overcome this liability to some extent through other behaviors that can be kind and supportive. After all, we all bring baggage to our relationships.

I don't think I can shift my mindset. I look at relationship and a give and take arrangement and right now I get next to nothing from this. Now I know many won't agree with my feeling, but I'm just being honest. The more I learn about BPD, the less tolerant I am of it. Why? Because I'm 99% convinced that she doesn't actually care whatsover in any more than the most selfish and self-serving way.

You certainly are entitled to feel this way after years of being in a dysfunctional relationship. This is the Bettering Board, for people who want to improve the relationship with their BPD partners.

Perhaps you might consider posting on the Conflicted Board, where you will find more like-minded people. There’s nothing wrong with wanting an emotionally healthy partner and deciding you’ve had enough with a BPD spouse. I’ve divorced a BPD husband and am currently married to another man with BPD traits. The more traits an individual has, the more challenging the relationship can be. There’s no judgment here about exiting a BPD relationship if you feel there is nothing to be gained by staying and that there’s no hope for improvement.

That said, many have tried implementing some of the strategies we teach here and have been able to have a much happier and more fulfilling relationship with their partners. Others have decided to leave. It’s up to you to determine which path is the best for you.

[hands down]

Here's an example that comes to mind - tangentially & metaphorically

Codependency - if I go to the gym, and get buff, and smack the PLEASE READ out of my partner when they abuse me and if i do that...  I can create a scenario (or influence) where my partner is no longer an abuser. 

While that COULD work, this is not a boundary, its making things happen to "fix" the other person..

A boundary (all though VERY directional) would be closer to... I'm gonna go get strong so when someone abuses me, at minimum I protect myself and ad maximum they may get their ass kicked.. 


I'm sorry, this is WAYYYY loosely translated but, it's the way my crazy mind thinks ;-)

[fisher101]

This is exactly what we advise. 

This seems a reasonable approach to me. How has it been working?

It’s not about you changing; it’s about figuring out what works and what doesn’t, and doing more of the former and less of the latter.

PwBPD feel like victims and can use that to victimize others. They don’t get a pass for bad behavior. What they do get, however, is the realization that they are fundamentally emotionally damaged in a way that many will never recover from. It’s like being in a relationship with a special-needs person who feels tremendous shame and self-loathing.

That said, some can overcome this liability to some extent through other behaviors that can be kind and supportive. After all, we all bring baggage to our relationships.

You certainly are entitled to feel this way after years of being in a dysfunctional relationship. This is the Bettering Board, for people who want to improve the relationship with their BPD partners.

Perhaps you might consider posting on the Conflicted Board, where you will find more like-minded people. There’s nothing wrong with wanting an emotionally healthy partner and deciding you’ve had enough with a BPD spouse. I’ve divorced a BPD husband and am currently married to another man with BPD traits. The more traits an individual has, the more challenging the relationship can be. There’s no judgment here about exiting a BPD relationship if you feel there is nothing to be gained by staying and that there’s no hope for improvement.

That said, many have tried implementing some of the strategies we teach here and have been able to have a much happier and more fulfilling relationship with their partners. Others have decided to leave. It’s up to you to determine which path is the best for you.

Thank you.

This approach works to the degree that we both kind of get what we want, in a strange way. Having said that its important to note that if we each really need each other I know that we can count on each other on the bigger things. In our own odd way we are both loyal to a fault.

We are lucky in that sense because I can tell by reading other posts that our situation is not as severe. I'm guessing there is a spectrum of severity with this disorder and I see that a lot of people have it a lot worse.

Part of me being here is to vent to people with similar experiences. One reason I'm here instead of conflicted is that she does have some good qualities as well. The good times are exceptionally good bu the roller coaster is exhausting.

The hardest part for me to understand now is the difference between a pass for bad behavior and that realization that your referred to. It might be my own issue in not understanding the difference.

[fisher101]

Here's an example that comes to mind - tangentially & metaphorically

Codependency - if I go to the gym, and get buff, and smack the PLEASE READ out of my partner when they abuse me and if i do that...  I can create a scenario (or influence) where my partner is no longer an abuser. 

While that COULD work, this is not a boundary, its making things happen to "fix" the other person..

A boundary (all though VERY directional) would be closer to... I'm gonna go get strong so when someone abuses me, at minimum I protect myself and ad maximum they may get their ass kicked.. 


I'm sorry, this is WAYYYY loosely translated but, it's the way my crazy mind thinks ;-)

I can loosely follow that but I'm thinking it isn't apples to apples. I do get the point though. I think it makes an assumption that the boundary, as defined this way, is "better" than a "fix."

Like I said, she can absolutely choose not to offer an apology. I'm okay wit that. But I'm under zero obligation to help someone who less than 30 minutes ago told me that they hated me. In fact it makes zero sense to do give the help. That to me would be the definition of letting them rollover you.

We can call it something other than a boundary if that seems more appropriate. We can call it an expectation of behavior, a ground rule, anything really.

[hands down]

I can loosely follow that but I'm thinking it isn't apples to apples. I do get the point though. I think it makes an assumption that the boundary, as defined this way, is "better" than a "fix."

Like I said, she can absolutely choose not to offer an apology. I'm okay wit that. But I'm under zero obligation to help someone who less than 30 minutes ago told me that they hated me. In fact it makes zero sense to do give the help. That to me would be the definition of letting them rollover you.

We can call it something other than a boundary if that seems more appropriate. We can call it an expectation of behavior, a ground rule, anything really.

I say this with care and not intended to be mean. But doing something with the motivation and expectation of changing someone. Is manipulation.

[fisher101]

I say this with care and not intended to be mean. But doing something with the motivation and expectation of changing someone. Is manipulation.

Thank you. I appreciate that but I do not agree. I feel that I'm giving a choice.

Just curious then, do you feel I'm obligated to help someone who has just told me that they hate me? I thought that it was my right to decide what I will do and what I will not do? I might not be understanding correctly, but I feel like your telling me that the expectation is for me to act as if nothing happened?

[hands down]

Thank you. I appreciate that but I do not agree. I feel that I'm giving a choice.

Just curious then, do you feel I'm obligated to help someone who has just told me that they hate me? I thought that it was my right to decide what I will do and what I will not do? I might not be understanding correctly, but I feel like your telling me that the expectation is for me to act as if nothing happened?

Your choice to continue is completely your choice and I 100% resonate with you for not wanting to give up. It’s not easy and I get the sense I can feel how much you care and I admire it.

I think our only obligation to a partner (I say this loosely) is two fold… be the best person you can be (physically healthy, emotionally healthy, attractive, responsible etc) and that values them as a partner. As a 2nd I’d say not withhold something they are asking of you, if it is within your means to provide… NOT to fix them. Yes, you are responsible for the dynamic you two create, but only to the extent that your role is played in the dynamic - not to change your partner. Another analogy, if your partner decided to stop brishing his teeth and got some bad infection that was contagious, you’re not going to convince him to start brushing his teeth if he doesn’t want to, and withholding sex until he does - may likely not be the best approach —-, but you can refrain from kissing him.

The genesis for my response is I get the sense by reading your post that your desire for boundaries is to change your spouse - and I could be ENTIRELY wrong

My point squarely comes down to the “why” and the “intent” of what we do.  Changing a person or “fixing” someone becomes a very slippery slope to resentment, anger and shame.

I’m hopeful I’m adding value and not making it more difficult.  Again I understand this isn’t easy and it’s honorable you’re here seeking and continuing to do the work.  Kudos

[hands down]

I should add when I say manipulation… . “Manipulation” isn’t always bad….

It’s a fine line…. Giving a child $50 bucks for an A works for a lot of folks.


I digress.  Lol

[Cat Familiar]

Regarding your boundary, you could phrase it this way: “I’m happy to be of assistance when I’m treated kindly.”

I had to exercise this boundary today when my husband was really upset and out of sorts about another issue and he snapped at me for asking him to drop off a package at the UPS store since he was already going there. It really wasn’t about the package or me, it was something he was dealing with internally that had nothing to do with any of that.

Also we have tree trimmers working today to clear some parts of our property from a recent storm that knocked down some trees and he was upset that more wasn’t getting done.

When he returned from town, he angrily confronted me about the work that was  yet to be done and wanted me to confront the workers. I flatly stated that we’d given them a ton of work to do and I didn’t see that they were slacking off. It devolved into that I “wasn’t supporting” him and was dropping my end of the responsibility.

Since he was the one all fired up about it, and it wasn’t my issue, I wasn’t about to participate in some confrontation for which I didn’t think had any merit. So I went about my business.

Later he did apologize and said he’d been an a-hole and when he was walking back from the garage, the lead guy asked if we’d like to look at what they’d done. He asked if I’d go along too and I said sure.

It turns out that they had done a lot and he was fine with what they were doing, only adding a request that they also work on one particular area.

I hadn’t seen him that worked up about something in a long time, and he seldom directs his anger at me, but he did then, and he apologized for it. I still was upset, but I didn’t respond in kind, which probably made him even more upset, for it was clearly him who was creating problems, not me.

Later he saw it, apologized, and we moved on. This outcome was not how it used to be in the past. I’d get triggered, he’d get angrier, and it might take a day or two to get back to a normal pleasant space.

[Cat Familiar]

By the way, I had been a doormat in my previous marriage. In this marriage, I become an *objective observer*, which really unnerves him at times.

I’m good at having a poker face, a talent I learned growing up with a BPD mother. I just keep a blank expression on my face and look at him and it becomes obvious that only one of us is creating the drama. I speak very little and keep my voice measured and try to only use factual language.

Sure, I get upset at times, not often, but I did today. However I’ve learned that cold icy anger is far better than the hot version, in that I won’t have anything to apologize for and I won’t make mistakes.

[hands down]

By the way, I had been a doormat in my previous marriage. In this marriage, I become an *objective observer*, which really unnerves him at times.

This quite well could be the greatest ninja skill in ANY relationship - especially a strained one.  True words, not easy ones but fruitful if you can achieve it, beyond bountiful if you can do it while still holding love at the same time.  Thank you for this.