when do you know it's not working?

[FirstSteps]

I'm in serious BPD burnout.  I've been working on both myself and also on all the tools to communicate with my uBPDw.

And it's just not changing.  I am very sure I am not perfect - I definitely think I'm still subtly JADE-ing when she absolutely insists I participate in what she calls conversations but are really lectures.  I'm sure I'm not perfect in other areas too.

But I just don't see the improvement that I hear about from others.  If I calmly set a boundary, do something or validate, she does not just go away and come back normal in a minute, hour or day.  It is still catastrophic - or at least a high chance of it - at the slightest mood change.

I get that this is life, and that she has her own personality that I can't control.  And her style is non-violent, medium emotional abuse and endless talking.  She is aware enough to want to talk about relationship and personal issues but not aware enough to make the conversations work.

Anyway, my point is that I really do not know how I would do this for years more even if things did calm down.  I also feel like I'm internalizing all the tools here as the same kind of achievement-oriented co-dependency that got me in this mess to begin with.  I realize the answer is probably just do more of the same - keep working on me, etc.  I've come a long way though and am at the limits of how much time I can be away from kids, work, etc.

For people who ended their relationship, how did you know it was time?  Or did anyone see positive change in year two or later of your own changes?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[T0M]

Hello FirstSteps

Nope, no improvement.
Also learned that my GF is already going to her 8th therapist.
So I do not think improvement is imminent. :-)

When to end it? That will be a personal decision. I notice myself that I kind of life from milestone to milestone. Hoping things will change afterwards. But they never do.

[15years]

I also feel like I'm internalizing all the tools here as the same kind of achievement-oriented co-dependency that got me in this mess to begin with.

This is an interesting point that I'd like to hear some thoughts about from others too.

I'm wondering if I'm addicted to drama but in a reversed way, kind of "how long can I avoid drama by using the tools", or even worse; "if I do everything right, it will be obvious who is the villian when things get dysfunctional".

It can also feel a bit dishonest to validate and avoid JADEing. Maybe I lack an ingredient that would make my needs more important. One thing I feel confident about is that staying calm is good, especially since I don't want the kids to grow up in a chaotic environment. That is an honest input, to not contribute to chaos.

FirstSteps and everyone else in the early days of trying to change the relationship - I feel that we have learned how not to JADE. The next step could maybe be to learn how to use "BIFF". I'm not very familiar with that concept yet.

[orders4946]

I'm still struggling to get clarity on the answer to that question.  I'm following this thread with interest.

I would also be interested to hear other's thoughts on the state of your relationships now you have applied the tools and implemented boundaries.  In my case my 'feelings' have not come rushing back like I expected (maybe the damage over the years is too great and I have become too detached as a result).  Our relationship has also become really lifeless - we are like roommates co-existing even though she displays the odd flash of affection.

[kells76]

Hey FirstSteps,

One thought that gets talked about a little more on the "Son/Daughter... with BPD" board is that "success" can look really, really different between people and families. Some families get "success" in that their child wBPD seeks treatment, focuses on treatment, and can move forward with support and aware management of the disorder. Other families get "success" when "at least my child isn't doing meth on the street any more, just pot and verbal abuse of me".

It's not wrong to want our relationships to have one kind of success -- where the pwBPD makes changes. I know how on this board there's a lot of discussion about how when we make positive changes/learn tools/do skills, our partner can respond to those changes.  But it doesn't always happen, and each partner and relationship is different.

As I read this, I wonder if you're seeing some examples here of partners who have positively responded to the non's changes, yet you're not seeing that happen in your relationship:

But I just don't see the improvement that I hear about from others.  If I calmly set a boundary, do something or validate, she does not just go away and come back normal in a minute, hour or day.  It is still catastrophic - or at least a high chance of it - at the slightest mood change.

Yes, it could be that your partner is different than those partners described.

So that may mean that a re-creation of the picture of "success" is necessary. Maybe one original picture, that is pretty desirable, is this:

At first, without "tools and skills", the two partners are like strong ocean waves hitting an unprotected beach. The waves keep coming and coming, and eroding the beach, which has nothing to stop the waves. Then, once the beach gets some nice big rocks and a retaining wall, the waves hit those, then after hitting those for a while, the waves die down, as they can't erode the beach any more.

I wonder, though, if your picture may need to be more like this:

At first, without "tools and skills", the two partners are like strong ocean waves hitting an unprotected beach. The waves keep coming and coming, and eroding the beach, which has nothing to stop the waves. Then, once the beach gets some nice big rocks and a retaining wall, the waves hit those, then after hitting those for a while, the waves do nothing different. The waves just keep hitting that area the same as they always did. No arrangement of rocks or walls makes any difference to what the waves do... but the beach isn't eroding any more.

This may point back to how the tools and skills are for us, to protect us, and help us to be healthy. There's no guarantee that even if we "open the door" to our partners to follow us in health, that they'll respond. That is hard.

One final bit of nuance might be this:

The waves don't hit incessantly, whether there are rocks there or not. In either scenario, there are moments, occasionally, where the waves don't go crazy. In either picture, you can go out and enjoy those moments. But at least in the second picture, you can decline to be there when the waves are hitting, and be on protected, noneroding beach. The waves aren't doing anything different, but you don't have to be there all the time for it.

That may be a less intuitive skill -- that we make all these changes and learn all these tools and hope that it means that the pwBPD will follow our lead... but they don't. So the skill is recognizing when to be around them and enjoy those moments for what they are, and then decline to be around for their emotional/verbal abuse/unloading.

I get that that is not what many people would want in a marriage.

Hoping more that this is food for thought and discussion...

[judee]

Hi first steps,

It sounds very stressful to me... for me, when I broke up with my exw BPD ( diagnosed) I knew it was time when I got seriously ill.
It has nothing to do with him ( although he immediately said it was his fault, which is in itself a bit of a narcissist way of thinking )
But I had to brutally cut out every stressor in my life, meaning I couldn't spend another minute fighting or worrying. I am doing well again now but still miss him from time to time.
But still, looking back I just wished I'd gone sooner. I think our gut feelings are much more honest than our minds most of the time.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Simply put, my husband would say : When there is doubt, there is no doubt. ... And I do understand what he means. When the doubt appears, it means you are very close to your limit. Doubt is a red flag, and coming back from feeling it takes actions from both parties involved, I'd say...

But only you will know... It is not helpful, I know, but we all have different limits and thresholds. Some things we can accept for a long time, and all of a sudden, the vase is just full and we know, deep within, that it is over. We reached our limits.

I really loved the sea image that Kells provided. Along with that image, I would like to add that : when healing ourselves, we sometimes come to realize that, even with armored rocks and retaining walls, what we truly need is a calmer sea. And this new need is valid. If the riprap design you made for yourself does not match the design water level and fetch of the sea you are with, then it just won't be enough.

Sometimes we grow apart and reconciliation is just not possible. But only you will know if you have reached this point or not, and if you truly are ready for a calmer sea, or if your riprap design can maybe be further modified and improved. Only one thing is certain: you cannot expect the nature of the sea you are with to change.. you simply have no power over it.

[zondolit]

FirstSteps, I really resonate with your post. I, too, am struggling with these issues and questions. Using the tools has made things much calmer, but the so-called conversations still leave me needing days to recover from.

[thankful person]

This is an interesting point that I'd like to hear some thoughts about from others too.

I'm wondering if I'm addicted to drama but in a reversed way, kind of "how long can I avoid drama by using the tools", or even worse; "if I do everything right, it will be obvious who is the villian when things get dysfunctional".

It can also feel a bit dishonest to validate and avoid JADEing. Maybe I lack an ingredient that would make my needs more important. One thing I feel confident about is that staying calm is good, especially since I don't want the kids to grow up in a chaotic environment. That is an honest input, to not contribute to chaos.

FirstSteps and everyone else in the early days of trying to change the relationship - I feel that we have learned how not to JADE. The next step could maybe be to learn how to use "BIFF". I'm not very familiar with that concept yet.

First steps, 15 years, I totally relate to this. I don’t have the respect I would like to have for my wife but it’s hard isn’t it, when someone behaves in such a way (and she does continue to challenge me daily, honestly… but she has generally become more mature and more sane in response to my work on things, which is incredible…) My priority is also for my children to have a more calm and emotionally healthy experience of life. For some reason my wife does respond extremely well to the tools I have learnt. I’ve said before that saying nothing in response is actually often my greatest tool. Strangely I used to get screeched at for saying nothing, but now I try not to JADE, it seems more acceptable.

But this is somewhat of a challenging “game” for me too. I even play with it sometimes, say something I know I’m not “allowed” to like disagreeing and not validating, just to see how quickly I can bring her back to calm afterwards. I have got pretty good at it, but as I said she is a text book case for some reason. I have spent many years working in behaviour modification with children who have autism spectrum disorder, so this has always been an area of interest to me, though autism used to be so much easier for me to relate to than bpd, but now I am handling the bpd much better (my wife anyway).

What concerns me the most personally is how unemotional I feel generally. I adore my children and they make me so happy. But I feel cold inside. Like I’ve been through so much and I am over it all, I am stronger than ever because I used to feel it was only my wife who could hurt me now, and now it’s not even her. My heart had already turned to stone when my ex boyfriend denied me children for 14 years and I didn’t even tell anyone because I was protecting him from their judgement.

I guess we all have the choice don’t we, different reasons for staying which is often a responsibility towards our spouse and/or children. Sometimes my wife asks if I’d like a different partner. And I tell her, quite honestly, that even if we were to split up… there is no way I’m going through all that drama again… getting to know someone and put up with them… I would rather be alone forever. I’m not even joking. I actually wrote a song called, “I wanna be alone” when my relationships were overlapping and I had to choose who to be with.

[15years]

What concerns me the most personally is how unemotional I feel generally. I adore my children and they make me so happy. But I feel cold inside. Like I’ve been through so much and I am over it all, I am stronger than ever because I used to feel it was only my wife who could hurt me now, and now it’s not even her. My heart had already turned to stone when my ex boyfriend denied me children for 14 years and I didn’t even tell anyone because I was protecting him from their judgement.

I've read this a few times on this board now and I feel it myself too. However, not one of you expressing this concern gives me the feeling of being a cold and unemotional person. Quite the opposite actually.

My theory is that not reacting and sharing our partners strong emotions makes us feel cold but strong. Maybe we are just being more healthy and independent.

The biggest problem with this for me is that the attraction suffers.

[Rev]

Hi First,

Picking up on Kells' last statement - I get that that is not what many people would want in a marriage. - Here's what I would add.

In answer to your question, I would encourage you to discern now from a personal point of view, putting the PBD condition out of the way, as if this makes the relationship somehow different. PBD is a particular condition that, as Kells also says, may help you define what success looks like.

Ultimately, what I am hearing is a bigger question about discernement - "When do you know?"  That's going to look different for everyone. The signs will look different, the timing will look different and the only thing that's not different from case to case is that it is deeply personal.

I can, if it might help, share how I knew.

- When I saw abusive behavior escalating.
- When I saw our finances crumbling
- When my parents died within six months of each other and my then wife wondered when I was "going to snap out of it" because it "had been two months already"

When these things were happening and they shook me enough to fear staying more than I feared leaving, then for me, I knew it was time to act. And I knew that in acting, she would give me the answer to the question and that I would be emotionally ready to accept the unspoken truth of the answer I was receiving. As I remember, that piece of it had a prayerful quality to it.

Funny that I am here today. Just yesterday, I sat at the very spot in my local pub that I sat in almost three years ago and zoned out. I had one of those bar conversations where you make a bit of small talk with the person next to you to pass the time.

I emerged from that conversation knowing that a big decision was coming for me. The next morning I woke up very, very detached. I asked my wife if she would be home later that day and that we needed to talk. It was about 7 am at that point - Her boys (my stepsons) were in their rooms. She said we can talk now - she knew something was up. I responded that no, we would wait because I did not want to talk when the boys were home.

Later that morning, I texted her that I was on my way home and that I wanted to discuss the state of our finances. She exploded over text. Sensing that I needed to let air out of the tires, I called her from the car. It felt like I was talking to an addict, the way she was deflecting answering what had happened to about 10 K.

As part of my plan, I calmly put an ultimatum in front of her. We needed to go for counselling that would involve getting our finances under control. There was not an "or else" attached to that. Just a continual repeating that we needed to go to save the marriage. In that phone call, which lasted an hour, she ended the marriage (even though I provoked it). It the next hour, she called back wanting my "exit strategy" because "she needed to tell the boys". I calmly responded that she could tell the boys whatever she wanted and that since she had asked to end the marriage, I would agree to that, but no, I would not be offering her an exit strategy on the spot.

I joined these boards in the aftermath of putting a cease and desist in place. My purpose in coming here was to make sense of what I had lived over the past five years.

I hope this helps in your discernment.  As my own T told me, "Rev, it's much easier to get into a relationship than to get out of one".  So take your time, discern deeply what is happening inside of YOU.

Hang in there.

Rev

[PeteWitsend]

...
But I just don't see the improvement that I hear about from others.  If I calmly set a boundary, do something or validate, she does not just go away and come back normal in a minute, hour or day.  It is still catastrophic - or at least a high chance of it - at the slightest mood change.

Well, I've seen others here note that boundaries and the techniques to reduce conflict are for YOU, not the pwBPD.  They are not going to change, and you cannot change them; all you can control is how you react to them.

And that leads to the next issue...

I get that this is life, and that she has her own personality that I can't control.  And her style is non-violent, medium emotional abuse and endless talking.  She is aware enough to want to talk about relationship and personal issues but not aware enough to make the conversations work.

I've been posting here for several years, and I've seen stories where a bit of boundary enforcement achieves a theoretically tolerable result for some people.  

For example, maybe the pwBPD grumbles a bit, or gives the other partner silent treatment for a day or two when they hit a boundary that the Non-disordered partner has established.  And the non- feels like while this is not ideal - conflict and unhappiness never is - it's not a big enough issue to leave over.  

In other cases, the pwBPD reacts with extreme hostility to boundary enforcement and either gets violent, or escalates conflict which can be embarrassing or deeply upsetting, or even intolerable on its own if it involves fighting around the children.  In such cases, there's really not much you can do, other than getting out, and doing it as cleanly as possible, minimizing the risk to yourself and any children you have with the pwBPD.  And of course, if the pwBPD is a child, you may not really be able to leave them for a long time.  And if they're a family member, it's hard as well because it may be impossible to maintain visits and relations with other family if the pwBPD is around

For people who ended their relationship, how did you know it was time?  Or did anyone see positive change in year two or later of your own changes?

My BPDxw was never physically violent, but would scream in front of our daughter or our neighbors, or in public, and also raged at some of my extended family members.  She would also try to prevent me and our daughter from having contact and visits with my extended family, and even if I put my foot down and went ahead with plans, she would do everything to make my life as miserable as possible for defying her demands.

In short, it was exhausting, and damaging to myself and my daughter.  And while maybe - MAYBE if I did isolate myself socially like my BPDxw demanded, she might be happy, I also understood she never really WOULD be happy, and I was just hurting myself for nothing, as she'd move on to new demands, and get equally upset if I failed to fill those... in short, I understood she was a "bottomless pit" and trying to fill "it" was an exercise in futility.  It was just a matter of how long I'd tolerate it.

We also got married way too soon; I never really developed any sort of deep love and commitment to her, because the BPD rages, lying, and conflict eroded any trust and affection I had for her.  So I knew it was over around 1 year into the marriage; I was miserable, I didn't love her, and I didn't trust her.  I knew this was not the sort of person I wanted to grow old with!  

I stayed several years after I knew something was "off" and I wanted out, solely out of concern for our daughter, and a sense of responsibility to trying, and a hope that things might improve over time.  I learned about the possibility of BPD about 3 years into the marriage, and the likelihood that it wasn't going to improve or change around the same time.  

But after a certain point, I saw that the continuing conflicts were damaging for everyone (except maybe BPDxw, who was already damaged enough), and I wasn't doing any good by sitting there and tolerating it.  So I left.  I waited until BPDxw picked another one of her huge blowout fights over nothing, got all my ducks in a row (new place, attorney, moved personal possessions out) and left.  

[WhoaBaby]

Good questions, good responses. IMO, "When do you know it's not working?" is a lot different than "When do you know it's time? (to leave)". Almost everyone on these boards knows or knew that "it's not working" and has been struggling with it. But I struggle a lot more with the second question myself.
As Kells put it, "The waves just keep hitting that area the same as they always did. No arrangement of rocks or walls makes any difference to what the waves do..." This is my experience after 15 months of couples therapy, and 5 months since diagnosis. Nothing seems to make a transformative difference in our relationship yet. The waves crash like they always did (our therapist says that's not true) and we are no closer to each other than 15 months ago.
Why in the face of all this does any partner not run away from the turmoil as soon as we get to the acceptance phase that things won't change? Frankly, I've not yet read a good all-purpose argument for staying in a BPD relationship (I have few thousand posts to read yet ; ) ); maybe it's blind hope and stubborn love? Since that's mostly evaporated for me, I primarily feel FOG–regret, sorrow, dependence, guilt and responsibility for the pwBPD, AKA caretaking. Sorry I'm not helping, I'm in the same boat as you and I definitely feel your pain. I'm still in it but can't say why...

[FirstSteps]

Thank you everyone for responding.  I'm a bit overwhelmed both that I'm not alone in this and also very sorry for everyone who is also struggling in this point of their relationship.

TOM:  I am also going from milestone to milestone.  I had a deadline of May 1.  Then I agreed to do therapy one more time.  Now I'm looking to summer and realizing I can't/don't want to blow up the family now.  I am actually quite afraid I will hit mid-August and just decide to get through Christmas.  At least I'm afraid if there is no movement.  Maybe this is all ok if I'm strengthening myself in the process.  I also think the BIFF is a good tip.  I was starting that but have dropped it.  My struggle is getting lost in the circular conversations.  I can use BIFF many times.  I can use SET or the Yale method in more conflict or emotional situations.  But how do I get keep from getting lost in conversations that start normal but spiral out of control?

orders4946, 15years and thankfulperson:  This is also my struggle - do I want this relationship that's left over even when calm?  I think this is partially about me. I clearly got addicted to chaos and have a high validation need.  But it's not all me.  What do I do with this flatness? I love your angle of being strong 15years.  I can run with that.  But I also am not that attracted anymore - not by the calm but just after all the chaos.

Kells - that was a 100% spot on analogy.  Just exactly the way I feel.  And so beautifully written.  I am once again in a calm stage and facing a weekend away with my wife, so I am going to try and just enjoy the calm.

Riv3rW0lf:  I think your husband is probably right.  My therapist keeps saying "when it's time to go, you'll know."  Then she tells me I need to be deprogrammed and more or less says I need to get out immediately.  So mixed messages.  I'm trying to just accept my process - because I have had many chances to ride conflict momentum out of the relationship and I keep backing down.  Partially this is because the kids are 100% out of things now - she does respect those boundaries.  So it gives me space to consider just myself but I also lose momentum.


Thank you to Pete, judee and Rev for sharing their stories.  I need to hear them too, as I clearly don't have great boundaries yet on what's acceptable and not.

Today I am feeling much like zondolit and whoababy.  I am not recovering and I don't have a good idea of why I'm staying.  But I'm going to just ride with the calm good vibes of the past two days in my house.  Sadly, the one thing I can count on is the waves pounding the beach again, and maybe I'll be even stronger and have a clearer mind when that happens.

[PeteWitsend]

I also agree Kells' analogy is a good one.

on occasion, I found some of the suggestions to reduce conflict  helpful: don't JADE... listen with empathy... reassure... etc.

But when BPDxw wanted a fight, she'd push until she got one.  Often waking up the next day, and dismissing any kind words and resolution we had reached the night before.

So it was really a matter of how much I was willing to take.  I'm not a therapist, and I don't have an endless amount of patience.  

And if I took a step back further, I'd wonder why I was tolerating any of that at all.  She didn't have to work, got to be a stay-at-home mom, AND I did more than my share of housework and child-rearing, considering the hours I was working at the time.  She certainly didn't lift a finger to make MY time any easier.

From that perspective, there was almost no good response to the comment I once read "What's stopping you from just leaving and finding a non-disordered person to spend the rest or your life with?"  

The only thing was our daughter really, by that point.  And the fact that moving out, leaving, and filing for divorce wasn't exactly a walk in the park, even as appealing as she sometimes made it seem by her behavior.