First post - feeling confused and like I have to stay to protect the kids

[TangoMike]

This is my first post. I’ve been lurking on the message board for about a month reading your stories and reflecting.

I’ve been married 14 years to my uBPDw. For the first few years, before we had kids, things seemed OK. She was strong willed and opinionated, but nothing seemed too extreme and my self-esteem was intact.

But kids changed that, and she became more controlling, intolerant, and enraged by small things with each child. Once we had kids she started hating my family and I let her divide me from my parents, sisters and friends.  Fighting became the norm and she was never happy with anything.

We have three kids now,  7, 10 and 11, and I feel like our family is out of control.  Messes in the house now set her off.  She demands that everything be perfect - clean house, straight A grades, all-star athletes, perfect manners - and she must be the center of all attention.  She spends way beyond our means, and fights with our kid’s teachers, our neighbors, the kids and me.  And I’ve always just let her have her way to avoid conflict.

But now the kids are showing anger control issues and we live with constant fighting, belittling, anger - everyone, even the kids, are at constant war with one another.  Toxic. Toxic. Toxic.

I have been trying to make her happy for years not understanding why it’s so hard and thinking I must be a really bad husband and father that I can’t make people happy. And then I read Stop Walking on Eggshells and my eyes opened to BPD.  I see so many BPD traits in her and I’m started to understand what is going on.  

I know something has to change.  I’m in therapy now and working on noticing the patterns and triggers in our house.  I’m working on setting boundaries with wife and kids too.  My T thinks she demonstrates many BPD traits and thinks there is value in me staying in the marriage to help buffer for the kids.  I’m working on my own triggers so I can stay in control when craziness breaks out. But W is not responding to these boundaries and insists on a divorce now that I’m stepping up to challenge her behavior and set boundaries.

I am so tired of this and want to leave but know I’ll feel like I abandoned my kids if I leave.  I feel like I need to be here to protect them.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[DaddyBear77]

TangoMike, welcome! I am so glad you joined us! 

I am so sorry you are going through this situation - being in a relationship with some mysterious element that always seems to throw things off balance, yeah, I can totally relate. Then reading that book, or finding that therapist, who recognizes the traits and can point you toward more help, and then more - it's such an eye opening moment. Talk about a roller coaster!

So I've been in a very similar situation, and like many others here, your story sounds REALLY familiar to me. You may not realize it, but you've taken a huge step in finding a therapist who can help you set boundaries. I have also experienced the escalation of threats (divorce, etc) that happen when we change the dynamic with our own newly-formed healthier behaviors. Have you discussed this escalation with your therapist? What do they have to say about it?

In regards to abandoning your kids, I can also REALLY relate to this feeling. The fact that they are also showing issues with anger control and constant fighting is a huge sign that what's happening right now isn't working for them, would you agree? Setting boundaries of your own can be a real big changing point for them, too - have you noticed any shifts in the dynamics with your children as well, now that you're setting boundaries with your wife? Beyond the suggesting of staying to be a buffer, have you discussed any other steps you can take to assist your children with your therapist?

Finally, what kinds of things do you find most challenging, out of the list of so many things I'm sure? We've got lots of lessons and tools here, and we're happy to help guide you in whatever way works for you.

Welcome again, TangoMike, to the bpdfamily!

~DB77

[ArleighBurke]

Welcome! Your post could have been mine 5yrs ago. At that time, when I found out about BPD, I was married 14yrs, with 3 kids of the same ages. I stayed in my marriage another 5yrs trying to save it before I left.

I also battled with the decision to stay for my children, to try to buffer them from her and provide stability at the same time, versus leave for my own sanity.

The great news is: you don’t need to make that decision now.

Right now, you need to stay. You need to learn about BPD and how YOU can behave differently. The reason for this is that you are just like all of us were – probably an enabler, probably having poor boundaries, probably a “nice guy”. If you leave now, you will be that same man, and make the same mistakes in your next relationship (whether she’s BPD or not).

Stay, and learn. Stay and work on yourself. Learn how to say “no”. Learn how to enforce what you know is right. Learn how to understand a woman, how to talk to her, and how to separate yourself from her. All these skills MAY save this marriage, but it they don’t they will make your next relationship MUCH better.

Learn about Validation. Learn about SET. Learn not to JADE. Search these terms. Read a lot. Post a lot.

It is worth it.

[TangoMike]

Thanks for the replies.  Gotta say I was really happy to get your replies and felt a sense of relief reading them. I actually started to cry when I read the two replies.  It gave me a glimpse of hope - and I don’t feel a ton of hope these days.

Yes I’ve discussed the escalation with my therapist and he wasn’t surprised that she had a strong reaction when I started setting boundaries. He said she probably felt undermined when I call attention to things she’s doing or saying that aren’t rational. He also talked about weak ego strength and how the smallest comment from me can throw her into a rage to protect herself.

He’s very supportive and is a good cheerleader for me whenever he hears me talk about setting a boundary. And he also encourages me to do it in a fair and compassionate way.  I enjoy talking to him.

And yes, I know that the current situation is horrible for the kiddos. Just tonight I was observing the dynamics between me, my wife and kids and felt totally hopeless. If I step in and try to protect them from her tirade, then she feels undermined again and then she flies into full screaming  at me.  It’s the “don’t tell me how to parent” rage. This is usually what happens. If I sit back and do nothing, then pretty soon the kids are all piling on each other trying to get my wife on their side.  This is the worst to see them treat each other so badly to gain her approval.  I think she enjoys starting these fights between the kids. I don’t know how to fix this sad situation without her recognizing these patterns and changing. 

Yes I'm an enabler, I set poor boundaries and I’m a ‘nice guy’ and I want to learn how to better manage all of this better. I want to be a better father. I don’t know if I can be a better husband to her.  I feel more like her parent.  I feel like I’ve let my kids down by giving them this life and that’s probably why I’m so sensitive to leaving. They don’t deserve this.  I hope it’s not too late to be a positive role model for them.

I’m reading the materials you recommended.  Thanks all - more to come I’m sure.

[ArleighBurke]

Educating your kids can also be part of the process. Mine were the same age as yours. I started (very slowly AND very respectfully) talking to them about "mum" and mum's "behaviours". I never mentioned BPD or mental illness - I only focussed on her behaviours and state of mind. Quick things like:
- mum has big emotions - much bigger than you and me. Sometimes it's hard for her to control them and so she yells or gets angry.
- sometimes when mum is angry at you, it's not actually anything you did. Sometimes she's angry from having a bad day at work and she just hasn't got rid of that anger yet
- (to my oldest) when mum gets emotional, her emotions take over and she loses logic. If she's emotional and asks you to do something, you can't negotiate with her at that time. She may be making no sense, and it may be so obvious to you the logic/reasons for you to disagree, but when she's emotional she can't hear your logic, and it will just make her more emotional. Sometimes you need to just say "yes mum" - even if you have no intention of complying. Discuss it with her later when she is calmer.

After mum yelled at her, I had my 10yr old come to me and say "I know that mummy is just worried about her trip tomorrow".

When you feel the need to "step in and protect them from her tirade" - see if you can do it from a Validation point of view. Model your words and demenour for the kids. Read about Validation, then think of a time when you felt the need to step in, and see if you can devise how you could have handled the situation. Post it here and we can offer advice. When I started learning I reflected a lot on how I SHOULD have handled a situation. As I reflected more and more, the time it took me to see how I should have handled it got less and less, to the point that I could actually respond correctly DURING the conversation. It's just practice.

[TangoMike]

I looked back at my own words just now and had an AHA -

When I described the yelling at home I described it as 1) either she yells at me or 2) I let her yell at the kids.  But these are not the only options. These are just the only options I’m allowing. And I’m allowing her to yell in both scenarios.

And this is where setting boundaries comes in, right?  So I need to create new scenarios where yelling isn’t an option, like me leaving for a while, removing the kids, etc. and letting her know exactly what and when these consequences will happen.

Doesn’t sound easy given where things are. How did any of you do it?  

TangoMike

[Skip]

Maybe not just like that.    There are 14 years of behavioral conditioning and undoing that is going to take strength, patience, consistency. You have to play the long game.

"Setting Boundaries" is a life skill that has been recommended by therapists, self-help authors and support groups since the mid 1980's. It is the practice of openly communicating, asserting, and defending personal values. The term "boundary" is a metaphor. "In bounds" means acceptable to you. "Out-of-bounds" means unacceptable.

This is the life skill of openly communicating, asserting, and defending personal values.

The need for better “boundaries” is advice often given when someone complains about how another person has been treating them.

“Help, my girlfriend isn’t treating me well. Now she is giving me the silent treatment.”

“Well, friend, you need to set some boundaries”.

“You’re right, I have bad boundaries.”

From this discussion one might believe that if we are angry and say "no more" or even walk out that our wife will change their ways and all will be well. That's not what this is about.
(read more here)

Read it. It's good reference.

I think the first tactic is to get her to stop yelling at you. Right now that works - she gets her way. You have to slowly, consistently, close that down.

Members here can walk with you, situation by situation to do that.  As the article explains, you have to model a new way of communication and you have to stop rewarding bad behavior.  That doesn't have to be confrontational (it will at times)

Make sense? You have to try to rehabilitate a relationship/family.

[husband_of_bpd]

I have a 6 years old girl. BPD wife. I feel like you. I wish I could go away, but i love my daughter and I cannot leave her. I'm more connected to her than my wife. Sometimes I dream that she would let both of us go, and have peaceful life.
I protect my daughter A LOT. I get the "hits" because of this. I also explain to her about mom, that sometimes she tired and get angry easily.
My daughter is insanely scared of her. I'm sorry she need to suffer it.
I teach her to set bounderies, about telling mom, "don't scream on me, talk nice to me". But she is still afraid to talk in front of her.
When my daughter started to copy her mom, and started screaming on me. I sat with her, and explained to her, I'm sad when she talks not nice to me. It makes me sad when mom talk to me like this. We can talk nicely to each other. And ask mom to talk nice to us. I told her she also don't like when people scream on her, and let not do this to others. I told her mom learned from her parents to behave like this and its very hard for me to change this behavior and she makes me sad a lot.
I always explain to her, people should talk nice to each other. Since then, she is acting very good with me. She doesn't copy her mom's anger.
She sees it all, and she even asked me one day after explosion, "does mom love you ? " I told her i don't know.
She does see how i'm more "weak" comparing with mom, and I need to bend a lot in order to have peaceful life. sometimes I fight back but it always end up very bad with more screaming. For her, mom, is the final word. We must do as she says.


I'm also a nice guy. Stuff got worse between me and my wife, when i stopped play the games. I stopped apologizing, I stopped rewarding bad behavior.
If she act nice to me, I tell her this, and start to get close to her. If she is not nice, I stay away. Since I'm staying away, and not trying to "win her back" its getting worse.
2 weeks ago, I finally told her she had BPD. I did it very nicely, without telling her she has BPD. Later she wanted to know more about it, even asked about the books i'm reading about it, because she wants to learn more. She admitted its exactly like BPD, the symptoms, and i told her the name of her condition, BPD.
We talked about going to therapy. in the last days, she begin again to jump on me. The more stress there is in life, the more i get hit.
I'm talking with the therapist, I hope next month we will have the first meeting.

I enjoy reading your comments, Identify a lot.
It only bothers me that when someone talk about setting boundaries. No one is giving real examples, conversations. Of HOW to set the boundaries.

[TangoMike]

Hey husband_of_BPD,

Thanks for commenting. Sorry you’re dealing with this too. I am seeing similar things with my kids and wife.  You try to protect the kids and you get it worse from your wife. You try to make your wife happy and you feel like you’re neglecting and damaging the kids. So odd how in this relationship with a BPD we have spouses who want/expect/demand the opposite of that we know is right.  Like they’re actively working against what is good and right. But, to them, it IS good and right.  Man my head is spinning now.

So sorry your daughter is scared of your wife. So hard for a 6 year old to set boundaries with her own mother. It’s not fair but it seems like “fair” doesn’t matter in these relationships. That’s hard for me to accept.

I can relate to what you said about things getting worse when you stopped “playing the games.”  Things also got worse for me when I became more aware of how I was rewarding negative behavior and enabling. I can’t say that I’ve “stopped” those behaviors  yet but I’m working on it.  I agree that hearing real stories about boundaries that work from the community would help.  Thank you for telling your story - it’s good to know you’re out there.


Hey Skip,

Thanks for the information on boundaries.  I’ll start working on the skills each day and letting you all know how it goes.  I needed coaches and you all are the best.   Thx. 

I haven’t been much of a leader for my family and I’ve chickened out by lettering my wife call all the shots - even those that I knew were unhealthy.  I took a hard look at my life recently and was pretty disappointed.  I can’t still be living like this way when I’m 50+. I need a life I can be proud of - not one spent cowering and insecure. So my initial goal is to slowly stop the yelling. I’ll read up and start practicing.  Any success stories about boundaries and yelling would be helpful.
More to come... .

Thanks everyone - I need this.

TM

[isilme]

TangoMike,

As a person who survived childhood with 2 BOD parents, I want to commend you for working to protect your kids.  I lived in a houseful of crazy, and feel lucky to have escaped with just the amount of emotional damage and maladjustment that I did.

This IS a long-haul situation.  Once kids are involved, even if the adults decide to no longer share a roof, the kids will keep them in touch.  So no matter if you stay or go, you will always need to ahve good ways to communicate.

Boundaries - many seem to think boundaries will simply stop the BPD actions.  They don't.  They are meant, like a wall, to protect you as much as possible from the barbs and hurtful comments and actions.  Boundaries are simply a way to enact or enforce you're "I don't need to take this " list.  And by "I'm not going to take it" it usually means, "I find a way to disengage and leave the situation for a short break and force her to self-soothe as much as possible before we engage again."  The boundary does not directly force change.  It can indirectly, over time, because you are stopping reacting in a manner to which she is accustomed.  It's like asking a robot to do something outside its programming.  Bzzz Bzzzz does not compute. 

pwBPD cannot manage their emotions - that is pretty much the easiest explanation of it.  They rely on us to manage them for them, by "making them happy" or by taking all the negative feelings from them as targets of rage.  We, those closest to them, are appendages, we are their emotional immune system. They have not developed healthy coping skills and how they think and feel is both normal to them, and how they assume the rest of us think and feel. 

A good place to start as a boundary is not accepting yelling at household members.  You can validate things like if a child really is behaving badly that it needs to be discussed.  Bad grades, causing trouble with siblings or at school, sure, as parents, you need to be able to both discuss it together and also decide how to approach it with the child.

But she does not need to yell at the child, nor at you. 

A lot of parents on here have to plan a bit more to take that break once the yelling starts.  As a person without children, I need to simply find ways I can safely leave the room or house until things have calmed down to the silent rage/treatment.  That still sucks, but to me is preferable to outright raging and yelling.

Parents need to find ways to also take the kids.  "We will not stay while being yelled at.  I will return in an hour (you set time-based on your knowledge of her rage-cycle) and we can talk together, then decide how to address Billy not doing homework/tracking in mud, etc.  Kids - let's go for a walk to the park/get in the car." 

This requires a few things - explaining much like ArleighBurke does that mommy needs some space so we are going to give it to her.  It means you need to be sure she cannot escalate things by blocking your exit, that the kids know to listen to you and not add to the drama by following mom's commands (if they are frightened or feel they can earn approval points because kids of BPD learn to do such things, they might just do this), and that you keep your keys, wallet and phone somewhere you can grab em quickly and just go.  If you can't get the kids with you, then for a while, you just need to go. 

She will likely not like it, and will likely be trite and angry when you get back - refuse to engage.  Be vanilla.  Be bland.  She WANTS the release of shouting at you.  She NEEDS to fight because she can't process things without it.  And she might very well be made at say gaining 2 pounds this week, or a TV commercial that reminded her of a bad situation 10 years ago, but feel like yelling about dishes in the sink is what she needs to do.  What they decide to yell about is very often not what initially caused the emotional dysregulation - it's just the subject chosen to express the feelings of hurt, anger, repressed shame and blame, and to offset these all on to those closest to her.  Initially, we think that we can make them feel better, solve the problem - often we don't even know what the real problem is, and they don't want to immediately feel better.  So we need to deny them access to us as verbal punching bags and force them to learn to manage those feelings. 

I hope this makes sense.  Much like we can't just go along with a toddler for the sake of avoiding a tantrum, we can't go along with BPD rages or demands to avoid them.  There may be some "extinction bursts" where there are some really bad explosions as you try out boundary enforcement... .but once you show consistency and can establish a new "normal" often the pwBPD will be dragged along with you into that new setting - and then you can work on another boundary, another communication tool, on being a better, validating partner who is better able to navigate a BPD spouse.