80+ recovery rate

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Two questions from this great short post from Skip:

We have technical reprints showing cure rates in the 80+ range.

You're not going to Learn about recovery here  

This is a place to learn extraction and detachment.

1) That's really heartening about the 80+ recovery rate! Could you summarize these results, or send citation info? I'd love to read these studies.

2) Where on the boards would you recommend learning about recovery?

[kc sunshine]

Two questions from this great short post from Skip:

We have technical reprints showing cure rates in the 80+ range.

You're not going to Learn about recovery here  

This is a place to learn extraction and detachment.

1) That's really heartening about the 80+ recovery rate! Could you summarize these results, or send citation info? I'd love to read these studies.

2) Where on the boards would you recommend learning about recovery?

[patientandclear]

We have technical reprints showing cure rates in the 80+ range.

I agree that Leaving skews heavily toward not understanding and not caring what causes the challenging behaviors of pwBPD. Some of what is posted here is vengeful and defensive and lacking in insight, for sure, and for insight into BPD recovery, better to look elsewhere.

But I do think the 80% cure figure will cut like a knife to many here who will think recovery might have been just around the corner for their person if they'd faithfully stuck around.  From what I've read, the "recovery" statistics including after DBT assess the cessation of so-called low-functioning BPD behaviors like self-harm. These are not studies that show any established path toward true relational healing -- being able to trust intimate others and remain in relationship with them without capsizing that periodically with objectively hurtful damaging behavior. I know of no evidence that that happens.

[Skip]

kc sunshine, there are many articles on this site - but here is a good starting point on the cover:

Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder

https://bpdfamily.com

patientandclear, I don't think your characterization of the state-of-the-art is accurate - but that is a conversation for another board, like Questions or Parent of... .or Staying.  If you want to break it down, lets do it there.  And yes, it is at a point on the scale between hopeless and a magic pill.

I think the real issue for us at Leavers is this one.

I do think the 80% cure figure will cut like a knife to many here who will think recovery might have been just around the corner for their person if they'd faithfully stuck around.

You are not the only Leaver thinking this - so I'm not directing my comments to you - but to everyone who considers this.

Questions:

1. Is it important to you that our exes be doomed to future failure - that our relationship never had a chance?  

2. Would it cut you like a knife if recovery was 80%?

3. Is painting our exes as all the same (as some do) and then black (as some do) a healthy healing platform or something to be concerned about?

4. Why?

[fromheeltoheal]

And to clarify and differentiate terms, 'recovery' is not a cure.  Like recovery as it applies to alcoholism, 'recovery' means development of skills and practices, eventually habits, that ameliorate, temper, keep in check the effects of an incurable disease, or disorder if disease rubs people the wrong way.  A completely untreated borderline has a very long, steep climb to get to a level where the disorder is manageable, and their 'recovery' will likely include setbacks and relapses.

My relationship was less than a year, we weren't married and we didn't have kids, so from my perspective, what's the point?  But I can also sympathize with folks in different situations, marriage, kids, years or decades-long relationships; those folks have a lot more skin in the game, and we all bring our own sht to relationships, no one's perfect, and a 'relationship' has a life of its own, a product of the people in it.

[strikeforce]

A lot of people, myself included, was probably at some stage saying that ''getting fixed'' might just be around the corner.

The fear and hurt that the next person in their lives might be the ''lucky one'' is rushing around many minds.

I am at a stage now where I have moved on completely since last December where it matters little to me. I do hope she gets better, I do hope she finds happiness but right now she is just a distant memory, a stranger that I once knew, and now, shes gone.

[tim_tom]

Questions:

1. Is it important to you that our exes be doomed to future failure - that our relationship never had a chance?  

2. Would it cut you like a knife if recovery was 80%?

3. Is painting our exes as all the same (as some do) and then black (as some do) a healthy healing platform or something to be concerned about?

4. Why?

1) Kind of yeah,  it makes letting go a heck of a lot easier. It's supported by T's I've worked with. 80% recovery rate seems to be only for those who stay in therapy, or even go to therapy. Which seems to be the minority. My current  T will only work with 1 BPD at a time due to how difficult they are to treat, from the horses mouth. My first T point blank told me she'd never change, never do the work to get better. Also what does recovery mean? I have to imagine that no matter what these folks are going to be emotionally taxing to be around, recovered or not.

2) No, because I don't find it to be likely. My Ex freaked out at the mere mention of therapy "I AM NOT CRAZY!". So whether it would've worked or not is meaningless is she wouldn't try. Also, the initial idealization phase is a symptom of the disorder, that is what we miss, and understanding that it's as genuine as the later devaluation helps a lot break the mystic of how amazing this person is

3) I think it is. I think the biggest impediment to moving on is romanticizing the relationship. I will never feel like that again, never be loved or love like that again. Understanding it for what it was, transitory, disordered breaks the chains. You can't heal if you are stuck in denial/bargaining. Note: This does not preclude you from understanding your own role in this mess, developing boundaries, working on self esteem, etc... But I think it's good to paint them black.

[fred6]

For many here on the leaving board it is a moot point. You can't stay to help someone who has split you black, that would be harassment. I'm sure, at the time, that most of us would have chosen to be there to support and help our ex's if they would have decided to seek help. We didn't ask for any of this. If they don't acknowledge their issues and you try to address them to help them "fix" themselves. At that point you will be split and the cycle will repeat itself. Denial is the most harmful trait in my opinion.

[tim_tom]

fwiw... just scanning the referenced study...

Two acute symptoms they identified, intense anger and self mutilation dropped from 95% to 79% and 81% to 28% respectively after 6 years. Treatment had much more success in alleviating suicide/suicidal threats and self mutilation, then it did intense anger, which 4 of 5 still experienced after 6 years.  In fact, after 6 years 75% of the patients still met the criteria for a mood disorder.

Recovery != healthy

[Skip]

Codependents often lack in self-worth and define their worth through another's eyes, thoughts, or views of them. They need other people to validate them to feel okay about themselves and without this, they are unable to find their own worth or identity.  For some, the codependent relationship will satisfy the need to feel competent and low self-esteem is boosted by comparing oneself to the dysfunctional partner.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

For those of us with codependent traits - is this more of the same?  Are we basing a significant part of our healing on how the other person goes forward?  

When he/she idealized us our self worth was validated.

When he/she devalued us our self worth was decimated.

If they are totally defective, then our self worth is replenished.

Note: How many comments diverting from the main point (us) and taking a tangent to minimize the recovery findings. Also note that there are no comments offering counter balances like saying that the majority of the partners are not clinically BPD - not as severe and therefore more easily rehabilitated.

[vortex of confusion]

1. Is it important to you that our exes be doomed to future failure - that our relationship never had a chance?  

2. Would it cut you like a knife if recovery was 80%?

3. Is painting our exes as all the same (as some do) and then black (as some do) a healthy healing platform or something to be concerned about?

4. Why?

1. I want my spouse to be happy. I don't by into the whole notion that they are forever broken and are doomed to a life of misery. To me, that is a bit vindictive and short sighted. Also, I realize that even if a person does have BPD, that does not mean everything bad in the relationship was their fault. I have been reading and thinking about the section on self-inquiry. I am not innocent in all of this. In some cases, my personality would set off my husband. Somebody with a different personality might not trigger so much insecurity. Sometimes, things just don't work out. At the end of the day every last one of us is a bit f**ked in the head. The whole distinction of being a non seems like a cop out to me that allows people to be a bit self righteous. I may not have BPD (or maybe I do) but that does not give me any right to act like I have not done anything wrong.

2. I would be really happy if recovery was 80%. My husband and I have 4 kids together. If he recovers or finds better coping mechanisms, then that will make life better for our kids. Also, it will make it easier for him to deal with in the long wrong. And, it will increase his chances of being happy. The happier he and I both are, the better that will be for our kids.

3. I think that painting all of the exes black or with the same brush is very unhealthy for US. It is unhealthy for us because it allows us to hide from our own failings. It allows us to blame everything on the person with BPD without ever really looking into ourselves. We may get over this person but then there will be another person down the road. I see a lot of people posting about how they keep getting in relationships with BPD. Perhaps all of those people don't have actual BPD and there is something about us that sets off BPD like traits in others.

4. I am working towards finding a way to leave my spouse. It is not because I hate him or think that he is a monster. There are just some parts of our relationship that I don't think I will ever be able to continue. And those are very important parts of a relationship. He and I seem to make much better friends than we do anything else. I want to focus on working on myself and detaching in as nice a way possible for my kids.

[tim_tom]

Codependents often lack in self-worth and define their worth through another's eyes, thoughts, or views of them. They need other people to validate them to feel okay about themselves and without this, they are unable to find their own worth or identity.  For some, the codependent relationship will satisfy the need to feel competent and low self-esteem is boosted by comparing oneself to the dysfunctional partner.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

For those of us with codependent traits - is this more of the same?  Are we basing a significant part of our healing on how the other person goes forward?  

When he/she idealized us our self worth was validated.

When he/she devalued us our self worth was decimated.

If they are totally defective, then our self worth is replenished.

I'm talking about moving on, not defining my self worth. Yes, I was artificially inflated and deflated by me exBPD, I think any person would be. My T says I am not codependent (but maybe they don't tell you this?),  I did ask though.  She said I was depressed, and had just been through a very difficult relationship.

Having a pragmatic view on our ex's ability (or inability) to function in a healthy, adult relationship helps with letting go.

As my T said, this is not about scrapping out a difficult, emotionally draining life with my exBPD by managing her behaviors and my response to them. It's about figuring out what I want in life, what my needs are, and to find someone more compatible. That is healthy.

[kc sunshine]

fwiw... just scanning the referenced study...

Two acute symptoms they identified, intense anger and self mutilation dropped from 95% to 79% and 81% to 28% respectively after 6 years. Treatment had much more success in alleviating suicide/suicidal threats and self mutilation, then it did intense anger, which 4 of 5 still experienced after 6 years.  In fact, after 6 years 75% of the patients still met the criteria for a mood disorder.

Recovery != healthy

My ex was in intense treatment for a year-- I think it did help in some areas, and also was helpful within the relationship sometimes. The intense anger definitely remained though-- and in the breakup was particularly pronounced and pervasive.

[Pingo]

1. Is it important to you that our exes be doomed to future failure - that our relationship never had a chance?  

2. Would it cut you like a knife if recovery was 80%?

3. Is painting our exes as all the same (as some do) and then black (as some do) a healthy healing platform or something to be concerned about?

4. Why?

1. I would hope that my ex could heal and have a happy life.  I did love him and I wish we could have had a happy life together but it seemed not possible.  I wonder if he meets someone more 'together' maybe they would not tolerate the manipulation at the beginning and maybe they could develop a more honest r/s.  But likely it would just push him away.  And since they say water seeks it's own level I have doubts about him meeting said person.

2. Yes, it would cut me like a knife.  I am the one who left the r/s.  It changes the dynamics I'd imagine if it was the other way around.  I wanted nothing more than for us to make it work but there was just zero trust in the end.  I didn't even want to fight for it anymore, it seemed like such an insurmountable task and I was just so very tired.  Having said that, I would still hope this is possible even though it would hurt like hell.  I am aware of the ego-wound I've experienced which results in self-condemnation (why couldn't we have done/been 'better'.  I have a lot of guilt still from leaving him.  I wish it didn't have to be this way.  If recovery was possibly just around the corner I think I'd feel like I truly let him down (which I have a hard time not feeling anyhow).

3.  Painting them black vs. expressing our anger are two different things.  I know at times I 'paint him black' in different phases of grief I experience.  But I don't stay there.  I am able to step back eventually and feel compassion and see the disorder for what it is.  I guess I jump from black to gray a lot.

4.  I guess it depends on which phase we are in.  Feeling the support from people who can relate (b/c our experiences are so similar, our exes with many similar traits) is very helpful.  As long as we don't get stuck here.  If you watch a member's comments on different threads through time you will notice most don't stay in the painting black phase for too long, they grieve and move past it.  After being on here for a few mths I have noticed this and it makes me see the power of healing with this support group!

[patientandclear]

I still think "recovery at 80%+" is not what those studies indicate. But yes Skip, that can be a debate for other boards (and has been insightfully discussed there which is where I derived my analysis).

I think the idea that recovery is more achievable than it is would be harmful to ex partners who gave up or, more so, are struggling to make themselves give up, when that doesn't come naturally to them (I am in the latter category).

It has been helpful to my healing to grasp that this dynamic was a lot longer standing that just our r/ship, that the behaviors and impulses are deeply entrenched and not easily recognized or changed by the pwBPD. If it were otherwise, I would feel more inclined to stick around.

The reason it helps to grasp how hard this disorder is to grapple with is not because we feel good that the person we loved is likely to have future problems. It's because it helps us give up toxic hope.

[vortex of confusion]

I still think "recovery at 80%+" is not what those studies indicate. But yes Skip, that can be a debate for other boards (and has been insightfully discussed there which is where I derived my analysis).

I was wondering if anybody could clarify as I haven't read as much on this as some of you have. Is 80% recovery for ALL people with BPD or does that only apply to those who have sought help? If that only applies to those that have actively sought recovery, that makes a little more sense.

I think the idea that recovery is more achievable than it is would be harmful to ex partners who gave up or, more so, are struggling to make themselves give up, when that doesn't come naturally to them (I am in the latter category).

I am not one to give up either. However, I wonder if it might be helpful to look at it as "recovery is achievable IF the person wants it". Some people with BPD or other problems seem to be invested in NOT recovering or improving their lives.

The reason it helps to grasp how hard this disorder is to grapple with is not because we feel good that the person we loved is likely to have future problems. It's because it helps us give up toxic hope.

I know I feel an odd sense of relief now that I have given up on ever having any kind of relationship with my husband outside of finding a way for us to get along to care for our kids. Prior to getting to this point, I was stuck in the mindset that he could and would change IF he only put more effort into things. So, I tried to find ways to convince him to change or be different or something. Now, I am just trying to process the fact that I don't think I can ever be involved with him romantically. I don't know what his problem is and, quite frankly, I am tired of worrying about him and his conditions and what makes him behave the way he days. I am finally getting to a point where I can say, "What difference does it make if he can recover?" If he gets help and recovers or whatever, that is not going to change how I feel about him and about everything else that has happened between us.

[trappedinlove]

1. Is it important to you that our exes be doomed to future failure - that our relationship never had a chance?  

No, not at all.

I wish for my ex to get therapy and recover, regardless of our past relationship and  the lack of thereof today or in the future.

2. Would it cut you like a knife if recovery was 80%?

Nope.  Higher recovery rates are awesome and I'd love to learn more tools and apply them to myself and others.

3. Is painting our exes as all the same (as some do) and then black (as some do) a healthy healing platform or something to be concerned about?

4. Why?

I think it is vital for our healing process that we deal and experience reality as it is, since in many cases we got to the state we are due to false beliefs and attachment to unrealistic hopes and fantasies.  Finding comfort in another false belief that paints all BPDs the same and paints them black might seem to help in the short term as some form of escape but in the longer term it doesn't deal with our root causes of suffering.

For those of us with codependent traits - is this more of the same?  Are we basing a significant part of our healing on how the other person goes forward?  

That's an important question that I've found myself contemplating about.

When he/she idealized us our self worth was validated.

When he/she devalued us our self worth was decimated.

I can closely relate to these statements.

In the aftermath of my post-b/u breakdown this is exactly how I felt.  I was terrified to the point of anxiety and depression and I couldn't figure out exactly why. In therapy I understood my co-dependent thinking and I realized that part of the anxiety was projected on my exso as I felt she is in great danger without me to help her, and some of it was projected inwards. I physically and mentally felt worthless without the ability to help and to be needed.

Note that it is wasn't just about being idealized and valued - but rather around the means to be valued:

* I care therefore I help.

* I help therefore I'm valuable

* I'm valuable therefore I'm loved

=>

* I can't help therefore I have no value therefore I am not and will not be loved.

If they are totally defective, then our self worth is replenished.

That's too extreme in my eyes... .

[Skip]

I was wondering if anybody could clarify as I haven't read as much on this as some of you have. Is 80% recovery for ALL people with BPD or does that only apply to those who have sought help? If that only applies to those that have actively sought recovery, that makes a little more sense

Vortex, lets open a thread on Questions board where we can have this discussion without a positive or negative bias.  

I think the idea that recovery is more achievable than it is would be harmful to ex partners who gave up or, more so, are struggling to make themselves give up, when that doesn't come naturally to them (I am in the latter category).

I think you're touching on an couple of import points here.  

1. Our partners are diverse - ranging from immature, depressed, or moody - to clinical BPD, NPD and all points in between.  The symptomatology of all of these are very similar.

2. Forgetting BPD or a moment, how many of us hung on too long to a relationship that was defective?  If it was bipolar or ADHD, which have a somewhat similar symptomatology and are infinitely treatable with drugs alone, would we /  should we have stayed longer?  

3. And are we overlooking the reality that even if our bipolar, ADHD, or BPD was successfully treated, that our partner may very well have shed us (or been advised to shed us) because of our style/issues. Many of us brought unhealthy things to the table too -  something more than being too nice or too loyal.  

My point is, what failed was the relationship.  Its a fine distinction, but an important one.

To be clear, I'm not saying that we shouldn't dissect our exes - we should.  I'm not saying we shouldn't be angry and infidelity or theft or  - we should.  I'm not saying the presence of alcoholism, serial infidelity, bipolar, ADHD, or BPD is very significant factor is assessing the ability to recover a relationship that is fought with conflict.

What I am saying is that we can over focus on the partner (a codependent trait) and in the process, miss the point of what happened and that our own emotional maturity/health (to use a very broad term) is a significant issue in all of this -- the relationship and the post relationship suffering.

For a "BPD" relationship to coalesce, there has to be two matching puzzle pieces.  Understanding what drove the second puzzle piece (us) is huge as well as understanding the fact that the relationship trauma most relates to the interaction of these two pieces coming together.  Our partner is a big part of this but no all of it.  

At times, the "group discussion" here on the Leaving Boards rises to more than 95% posts being about the lack of awareness and poor emotional skills of our partners and assigns - group ruminating, postulating how dysfunctional exes (in general) would be in hypothetical situations... .all th while not realizing that this over focus on the other person is central to our own issues.  We are blinding ourselves (or hiding) from seeing the other puzzle piece - ourselves.  

[patientandclear]

The hell of it is, all of us and all possible partners are people, with flaws and dysfunctional coping mechanisms derived from life experiences, pop psychology (and sometimes even poor therapy!) to date. I think we can all agree that just walking away the first time someone we care deeply about behaves oddly is itself dysfunctional (and even a bit BPDish).

Where the line is between stuff that can be worked on and is worth working on, and stuff that should be a dealbreaker, is not cut and dried. It may differ a bit even among healthy people who have different zones of tolerance.

If BPD were like ADHD, for example, leaving a partner just because they exhibited the typical traits of ADHD would seem extreme, especially if the ADHD partner were willing to seek treatment for those issues (and good luck finding someone else who has absolutely no problems).

But if BPD is not like ADHD ... .If one of its components is a vigorous defense mechanism that projects all causes of relationship dysfunction onto the other, if it precludes gentle criticism of the BPD partner and self-criticism by the BPD partner; if even being diagnosed and/or being in therapy is not super likely to change the core r/ship dynamics ... .That may make the choice to walk away from the r/ship without protracted continued involvement make more sense. And that knowledge may make that decision easier to live with, as we search our conscience to make sure we didn't abandon someone dear to us unnecessarily or prematurely.

I really don't think it works to paint non partners of BPD folks with one brush either. Many of us have tried different approaches and used clear boundaries and dealt with the resulting loss. Feeling that we did the best we could and didn't too cavalierly give up on someone we really cared about is an important piece of dealing with the loss and addressing regret, for me and I know for some others.

[Skip]

If BPD were like ADHD, for example, leaving a partner just because they exhibited the typical traits of ADHD would seem extreme, especially if the ADHD partner were willing to seek treatment for those issues (and good luck finding someone else who has absolutely no problems).

Read a ADHD family forum.  Read a bipolar family forum.  Attend a AlAnon meeting?    

I've talked to many members here with clear signs depression (via the Stamford test) that were resistant to be treated or taking antidepressants.

But not really a central point.

The hell of it is, all of us and all possible partners are people, with flaws and dysfunctional coping mechanisms derived from life experiences, pop psychology (and sometimes even poor therapy!) to date. I think we can all agree that just walking away the first time someone we care deeply about behaves oddly is itself dysfunctional (and even a bit BPDish).

Where the line is between stuff that can be worked on and is worth working on, and stuff that should be a dealbreaker, is not cut and dried. It may differ a bit even among healthy people who have different zones of tolerance.

If BPD were like ADHD, for example, leaving a partner just because they exhibited the typical traits of ADHD would seem extreme, especially if the ADHD partner were willing to seek treatment for those issues (and good luck finding someone else who has absolutely no problems).

But if BPD is not like ADHD ... .If one of its components is a vigorous defense mechanism that projects all causes of relationship dysfunction onto the other, if it precludes gentle criticism of the BPD partner and self-criticism by the BPD partner; if even being diagnosed and/or being in therapy is not super likely to change the core r/ship dynamics ... .That may make the choice to walk away from the r/ship without protracted continued involvement make more sense. And that knowledge may make that decision easier to live with, as we search our conscience to make sure we didn't abandon someone dear to us unnecessarily or prematurely.

I really don't think it works to paint non partners of BPD folks with one brush either. Many of us have tried different approaches and used clear boundaries and dealt with the resulting loss. Feeling that we did the best we could and didn't too cavalierly give up on someone we really cared about is an important piece of dealing with the loss and addressing regret, for me and I know for some others.

There is an inherent assumption in all of what you say here - all of this is about my partners mental health and my partners fixing themselves.

If you read any of the success stories, the breakthrough by the bpdfamily member was - "wow, I didn't realize I had such a significant role in all of this - and fixing myself was a significant and essential piece of rehabilitating the relationship"

[fred6]

I think you're touching on an couple of import points here. 

1. Forgetting BPD or a moment.  How many of us hung on too long to a relationship that was defective?  If it was bipolar or ADHD, which have a somewhat similar symptomatology and are infinitely treatable with drugs alone, would we /  should we have stayed longer?

 That's an understatement. I think that I hung on to the relationship and still do on some deep level due to my own codependency issues and wanting to validated by another. I do love and care about her but looking back we both have issues. It shouldn't be this hard for me to let go and it shouldn't be so easy for her to let go.

2. And are we overlooking the reality that even if our bipolar, ADHD, or BPD was successfully treated, that they may very well have shed us (or be advised to shed us) because of our style/issues or even on general principles (fresh start). Many of us brought unhealthy things to the table too - often something more than being too nice or too loyal. 

I have realized that reality. I do feel bad for focusing mostly on her issues when I know that I had a part to play in the whole situation. But at the same time, I know that I was loyal and she wasn't. Her words about me were that, "you're good to me", "you take care of me", "you love me", and "this is one of the best relationships of my life". I know, I know, rule# 6) Clinging to the words that were said. However, looking back at both of our issues. I don't feel that as a whole, my issues caused hurt to another human. While on the other hand, her issues caused tremendous damage to another human and maybe to herself and children. It may seem like I'm trying to cast blame, but I'm just stating my reality of what happened. That brings me to rule 3) Belief that the relationship problems are caused by you or some circumstance. In the end, it was her issues that caused most of the drama and ending of the relationship. Did my issues contribute to our demise? Absolutely

To be clear, I'm not saying that we shouldn't dissect our exes - we should.  I'm not saying we shouldn't be angry and infidelity or theft or  - we should.  I'm not saying the presence of alcoholism, serial infidelity, bipolar, ADHD, or BPD is very significant factor is assessing the ability to recover a relationship that is fought with conflict.

But we can over focus on the partner (a codependent trait) and in the process, miss the point that our own emotional maturity/health (to use a very broad term) is a significant issue in all of this relationship and post relationship suffering.

For a "BPD" relationship to coalesce, there has to be two matching puzzle pieces.  Understanding what drove the second puzzle piece (us) is huge as well as understanding the fact that the relationship trauma most relates to the interaction of these two pieces coming together.  Our partner is a big part of this but it is not all about. 

At times, the "group discussion" here on the boards rises to more than 95% posts being about the lack of awareness and poor emotional skills of our partners --who range from immature, depressed, or moody - to clinical BPD, NPD and all points in between -- and we are not realizing that this over focus on the other is central to our own issues.  We are blinding ourselves from seeing the other puzzle piece. 

The reason we are here is not all about BPD per se'. BPD is only a part of it.

Believe me Skip, I understand that I'm F'd up to some extent. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been in this situation and suffering so much. Sometimes I wish that I could have detached from her as easily as she detached from me. But in that case wouldn't that mean that I'm much more F'd up, like my ex is?

[vortex of confusion]

If you read any of the success stories - the breakthrough by the bpdfamily member was - "wow, I didn't realize I had such a significant role in all of this.

I wonder how many people in the leaving category have this same revelation. Does having that revelation mean that a person will stay? I have been trying to focus more on my roll while still trying to make sense of my husband's behaviors. I know that one of the things that I have come to realize is that I can be very passive aggressive and make subtle dig when I don't feel like I am being heard. I will try to be direct and state my needs clearly but when they are repeatedly ignored, I resort to childish behavior. Even if my husband and I are able to untangle and figure out our individual problems, I still don't think I could stay with him in the long term. Would that be considered a success or a failure?

[fred6]

I really don't think it works to paint non partners of BPD folks with one brush either. Many of us have tried different approaches and used clear boundaries and dealt with the resulting loss. Feeling that we did the best we could and didn't too cavalierly give up on someone we really cared about is an important piece of dealing with the loss and addressing regret, for me and I know for some others.

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that most nons are split black and cast off. I'm sure there is a good percentage that leave. But if a person is painted black, no matter how hard we try, it's over. At that point, recovery percentages are irrelevant. There is nothing more that can be done to support someone once new supply has been secured, you are nothing but a trigger. They are on their own at that point unless they try to recycle. In that case, the non has to determine whether they want to go through this cycle again not knowing whether the pwBPD can or will get the help they need. Regardless of what the study says, everything that I've read is that these people rarely recover for whatever reason, probably denial. In that case, I feel the prudent thing to do is to leave or stay away in order to protect yourself.

[vortex of confusion]

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that most nons are split black and cast off. I'm sure there is a good percentage that leave. But if a person is painted black, no matter how hard we try, it's over. At that point, recovery percentages are irrelevant. There is nothing more that can be done to support someone once new supply has been secured, you are nothing but a trigger. They are on their own at that point unless they try to recycle. In that case, the non has to determine whether they want to go through this cycle again not knowing whether the pwBPD can or will get the help they need. Regardless of what the study says, everything that I've read is that these people rarely recover for whatever reason, probably denial. In that case, I feel the prudent thing to do is to leave or stay away in order to protect yourself.

I think some people are cast off and painted black. There are times when I wish my husband would paint me black and leave. I know that sounds bad but I feel like he has elevated me to some level that I will never be able to live up to no matter what I do. Heck, he has said things like he looks up to me and admires me. He has told me that I am a saint. While that may feel good at times, it makes it very difficult to have a normal healthy relationship where there is feedback and both partners get to be fully human. Eighteen years of being the strong one wears on a person.

[myself]

If you read any of the success stories, the breakthrough by the bpdfamily member was - "wow, I didn't realize I had such a significant role in all of this - and fixing myself was a significant and essential piece of rehabilitating the relationship"

Where are all of these 'success stories'? I can't find very many that appear to be actually consistently healthy and deeply reciprocal. I think what you state above is true, except in most cases the resistance is so high the r/s success doesn't have a real chance. I worked on fixing myself before I entered this last r/s and did so while involved with her even more. Offered to be there for her in any way I could, because I loved and cared for her, and also the possibility that we could have a healthy and reciprocal r/s. She resisted it. The closer we got, she ran. I still think sometimes, what else could I have done? But was there anything? I saw my place. Did my best. One reason I know the breakup was mostly her doing is because the reasons she gave weren't true, as in they weren't things I had done, they were projections. Made up stories to cover her emotional dysregulation/ destructive disordered patterns, instead of facing herself in therapy, etc. Instead of believing in the real power of herself or US. So it's up to me, yes, to look out for myself better. A different kind of success story. My own.

[fred6]

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that most nons are split black and cast off. I'm sure there is a good percentage that leave. But if a person is painted black, no matter how hard we try, it's over. At that point, recovery percentages are irrelevant. There is nothing more that can be done to support someone once new supply has been secured, you are nothing but a trigger. They are on their own at that point unless they try to recycle. In that case, the non has to determine whether they want to go through this cycle again not knowing whether the pwBPD can or will get the help they need. Regardless of what the study says, everything that I've read is that these people rarely recover for whatever reason, probably denial. In that case, I feel the prudent thing to do is to leave or stay away in order to protect yourself.

I think some people are cast off and painted black. There are times when I wish my husband would paint me black and leave. I know that sounds bad but I feel like he has elevated me to some level that I will never be able to live up to no matter what I do. Heck, he has said things like he looks up to me and admires me. He has told me that I am a saint. While that may feel good at times, it makes it very difficult to have a normal healthy relationship where there is feedback and both partners get to be fully human. Eighteen years of being the strong one wears on a person.

I don't know, maybe I'll post a poll. It would be interesting to see who was split black and who just got fed up and left. I am by no means an authority on the subject. But splitting is the main component of their behavior at the end of the relationship. Most nons here seem to be fixers/codependent and I think that most fixers will try to fix until the end.


EDIT - Tried to post a poll, but I guess you need some sort of admin privileges or something!

[fromheeltoheal]

Yes Skip, beating up the evil borderline is a favorite pastime here on the Leaving board, and you unfailingly drag the herd towards the center, the voice of reason.  And there's a line there.  Railing against someone who has abused and disrespected us is healthy and justified, and part of taking our power back, while doing nothing but blame and outward focus is a handy way to avoid our own sht.  So where's the line?  For us each to decide, and yes a relationship is a living, breathing thing, created with the raw materials each partner brings to it, and if the combination of those materials is combustible we can stand around and get burned, or we can flee the flames and use the pain of the singe to grow.  And while we're doing that growing, looking at the relationship more objectively once we're out and owning our part is a good thing, although owning our part by believing we need to be 'fixed' presupposes we're broken, which may be true or may be disempowering, again for us to decide.

[bungenstein]

There is an inherent assumption in all of what you say here - all of this is about my partners mental health and my partners fixing themselves.

If you read any of the success stories, the breakthrough by the bpdfamily member was - "wow, I didn't realize I had such a significant role in all of this - and fixing myself was a significant and essential piece of rehabilitating the relationship"

I agree with is 100%, we are/were unhealthy too, and thats what led us to be sucked into the leathery chasm of dysfunction. Fixing ourselves is the way to heal. Our happiness is down to us, and if we were healthy individuals we would have not let our relationships with our ex's get as far they did.

For me it feels like my ex shone a light on all the issues I was avoiding, now I am making big progress in my own time and in therapy to become who I really am, without holding myself back like I have done my entire life.

After we had broken up, I heard that my ex had said to her friend, that when we first met, I was her "ideal man", what does that say about me?

If you focus yourself at self improvement, the great pain will forge us into solid, strong, and healthy people, which will attract an equally solid, strong, and healthy woman.

[tim_tom]

For a "BPD" relationship to coalesce, there has to be two matching puzzle pieces.  Understanding what drove the second puzzle piece (us) is huge as well as understanding the fact that the relationship trauma most relates to the interaction of these two pieces coming together.  Our partner is a big part of this but no all of it.  

At times, the "group discussion" here on the Leaving Boards rises to more than 95% posts being about the lack of awareness and poor emotional skills of our partners and assigns - group ruminating, postulating how dysfunctional exes (in general) would be in hypothetical situations... .all th while not realizing that this over focus on the other person is central to our own issues.  We are blinding ourselves (or hiding) from seeing the other puzzle piece - ourselves.  

I think at times, yes we do. Speaking personally, I am in therapy for this very reason... to understand my role in all of this. But I think it's healthy to share war stories, to see how many other people experienced the same dysfunctional behaviors that I did. I am reasonably well assured that there is 0% chance I could've had a healthy and mature relationship with this person. Maybe 5 years from now, maybe after a willingness to go to therapy and acknowledge her issues, but there is only so much dysfunction a person can take.

[tim_tom]

After we had broken up, I heard that my ex had said to her friend, that when we first met, I was her "ideal man", what does that say about me?

Probably not much cause they say that about every new man ... imo

[fred6]

After we had broken up, I heard that my ex had said to her friend, that when we first met, I was her "ideal man", what does that say about me?

Probably not much cause they say that about every new man ... imo

I think you're right tim_tom. I've talked to several of HER friends that she split black before we broke up. Even though she was so nasty to them, they all were shocked and said things like, "she was so happy with you", "she said that you were so good to her", "I thought you guys would wind up married one day". Even my ex also told me such good stuff about me. Even after she split from me and was treating me like garbage she said all that was true. But in the end she still found new supply, cheated on me, and abandoned me. With all of that, I don't think that she will ever seek to recover. She has implied too many times that she is perfectly fine and happy with "who she is"!

[Pingo]

I don't know, maybe I'll post a poll. It would be interesting to see who was split black and who just got fed up and left. I am by no means an authority on the subject. But splitting is the main component of their behavior at the end of the relationship. Most nons here seem to be fixers/codependent and I think that most fixers will try to fix until the end.

I wasn't painted black until I chose to end the r/s.  And even then it was only when he realised that I wasn't going to change his mind.  Now I'm the devil reincarnate in his eyes.  I was the fixer/codependent in the r/s but I did give up.  But not until I realised that it didn't matter what I did, how much I worked on myself, how much therapy I got or how many books I read, he was never going to be healthy.  I might have been able to change my own actions/behaviours enough to make it more tolerable but I had to ask myself, is this the way I wanted to live the rest of my life?  Settling for 'less intolerable'?  So I guess I tried to fix it until I accepted I couldn't.

[kc sunshine]

For those of us with codependent traits - is this more of the same?  Are we basing a significant part of our healing on how the other person goes forward?  

That's an important question that I've found myself contemplating about.

When he/she idealized us our self worth was validated.

When he/she devalued us our self worth was decimated.

I can closely relate to these statements.

In the aftermath of my post-b/u breakdown this is exactly how I felt.  I was terrified to the point of anxiety and depression and I couldn't figure out exactly why. In therapy I understood my co-dependent thinking and I realized that part of the anxiety was projected on my exso as and some of it was projected inwards. I physically and mentally felt worthless without the ability to help and to be needed.

Note that it is wasn't just about being idealized and valued - but rather around the means to be valued:

* I care therefore I help.

* I help therefore I'm valuable

* I'm valuable therefore I'm loved

=>

* I can't help therefore I have no value therefore I am not and will not be loved.

If they are totally defective, then our self worth is replenished.

That's too extreme in my eyes... .

I totally relate to what trappedinlove wrote. Thank you for putting it so clearly-- it really helps. In particular, this line helped to clarify what I was going through: " I felt she is in great danger without me to help her"-- this helps me to understand that my intense anxiety around my ex's well being (and of course I can trace this back... .anxiety around my mom's well being, etc) is a projection (am I using that right?) The fear is/must be that I am in great danger if she doesn't need me to help her. 

[Skip]

I don't know, maybe I'll post a poll.

We have a poll like that

64% pwBD ended it

46% bpdfamily member ended it

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=39279.0

[fred6]

I don't know, maybe I'll post a poll.

We have a poll like that

64% pwBD ended it

46% bpdfamily member ended it

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=39279.0

I figured it would have been more in the 75%/25% range. But either way, 64% of the time a pwBPD splits from their partner. In that case, there is no staying to help with recovery. They don't want you there, they don't want your support. I know that if my ex wanted to work on things, I would have been there to support her decision. Like most, I didn't get that opportunity. Now it's her problem. I've got enough of my own to deal with at this point.

[Skip]

Believe me Skip, I understand that I'm F'd up to some extent. But... .

I don't think it helps to look at it this way.  If you saw this spoken in a post game (sorry, sports analogy) what would you think of that player?

What's a "clarity statement".  Your ex did a very inconsiderate and hurtful thing in the end - awful - but it is not the whole story.  The story is more about a very imbalanced ship that was never "righted"... .

I still think sometimes, what else could I have done? But was there anything? I saw my place. Did my best. One reason I know the breakup was mostly her doing is because the reasons she gave weren't true, as in they weren't things I had done, they were projections.

One of the comments Shari Maning makes it is to assume that everyone was doing the best they could.  That stunned me the first time I read it.  Is she generally right - that this is mostly true?

That is a game changer in how we understand the dynamics or what transpired in the past relationship, if she is.

myself, I know your therapist suggests that your ex might have BPD tendencies.  But what would he tell her?  Would validate her, too?

If there is one thing I've learned in my years working in this field is that therapists hand out far more third party "diagnosis maybes" than they ever diagnose face to face.  It's the whole patient advocacy and counter balancing a patient feelings of brokeness.

And there's a line there.  Railing against someone who has abused and disrespected us is healthy and justified, and part of taking our power back, while doing nothing but blame and outward focus is a handy way to avoid our own sht.  So where's the line?

This is really the issue.  Each of us being mindful that this line exists.

If you focus yourself at self improvement

To me, this is the right attitude.  The same one we would apply to golf, skiing, tennis, bridge, World of Warcraft… a constant reaching for improvement, better skills.

Human psychology and relationships are far more complex than any of these events and as subtle the skill differences between pro and amateur golfers - it even more subtle with human psychology and relationships.

[vortex of confusion]

One of the comments Shari Maning makes it is to assume that everyone was doing the best they could.  That stunned me the first time I read it.  Is she right?

I think so. I think one of the reasons that I have stayed so long is because I picked up the notion "Assume positive intent and assume that the other person is doing the best they can." I think it was more in the context of parenting meaning that kids are not very developed in some areas. Instead of getting mad at them and punishing them, it is a better idea to keep your cool and teach them or guide them. I think there was further discussion of why a kid will continually do something even when they know it is wrong. It is almost always because of unmet needs. If you find a way to feed the need, the negative behavior will diminish or go away.

Is this idea really a game changer? For me, I don't think so. I know that my husband is doing the best he can. My decision to work towards leaving is about me. Even if my husband were to "fix" everything and be the best partner ever, I don't think I would want to stay with him.

[fred6]

Believe me Skip, I understand that I'm F'd up to some extent. But... .

I don't think it helps to look at it this way.  If you saw this spoken in a post game (sorry, sports analogy) what would you think of that player?

What's a "clarity statement".  Your ex did a very inconsiderate and hurtful thing in the end - awful - but it is not the whole story.  The story is more about a very imbalanced ship that was never "righted"... .

Are you referring to my vernacular? Or my whole premise that I have issues that contributed to the demise of our relationship? I feel that regardless of my issues, the ship never would have "righted". In my opinion, my ex will never seek recovery. Must somehow move forward.

Even if my husband were to "fix" everything and be the best partner ever, I don't think I would want to stay with him.

I have often thought about that. If my ex somehow "fixed" herself, would I want to have her back. Of course the 1st thing that pops in to my mind is "on hell yeah". But its much more complicated than that. I doubt that I could never trust her again. Hell, I don't even trust myself these days and don't know when or if I'll ever trust anyone again. So even if she "fixed" herself, it doesn't fix the damage that's already done.

[Pingo]

Even if my husband were to "fix" everything and be the best partner ever, I don't think I would want to stay with him.

I have often thought about that. If my ex somehow "fixed" herself, would I want to have her back. Of course the 1st thing that pops in to my mind is "on hell yeah". But its much more complicated than that. I doubt that I could never trust her again. Hell, I don't even trust myself these days and don't know when or if I'll ever trust anyone again. So even if she "fixed" herself, it doesn't fix the damage that's already done.

I have thought about this too and my first impulse is that I would be so happy and what a lovely dream but in reality, upon looking back on the r/s without the rose-coloured glasses, we had a lot of differences outside his behaviours.  We had very different values.  My outlook on life is very different.  Disorder aside, who is he and is he someone I really would want back?  How much of his identity is wrapped up in his illness?  Where's the line between illness and personality?

[Caredverymuch]

1. Is it important to you that our exes be doomed to future failure - that our relationship never had a chance?  

Not at all.  In recognizing that so much about my ex's behaviors were rooted in a disorder , I can depersonalize much better.  I was scarred deeply by my r/s w him and hurt immensely but I am still better off bc I can recover.  And largely have.

I hope the same for him. Unwavering.

2. Would it cut you like a knife if recovery was 80%?

What cuts like a knife is knowing that I gave 100% to someone I loved deeply and lost.  Of course I wish the 80% in favor of his recovery would have included the possibility of this occurring while we were together.  Thats what hurts. 

3. Is painting our exes as all the same (as some do) and then black (as some do) a healthy healing platform or something to be concerned about? 

I think its part of the fan emotions of this horrifically hurtful experience Skip.  You tend to stay in that place of broad brushing up there in the fan emotions until much of the intense pain starts to lessen.  Its very unhealthy if the members on this board stop the healing platform  process there. 

4. Why?

Because it allows us to remain enabling codependent who are unable to see why this interaction occurred while putting is at high risk for another unhealthy r/s.

I love my ex. Disorder and all. Enlightened that his version of love and mine are different. Fully aware of why our interaction occurred. I loved this person who was very important to me for many years and I wish our outcome were different. But love is patient and kind. And never fails.  I cannot be in a r/s with him but I hope he recovers. I will always hold love in my heart for him.  From afar. [/quote]

[fred6]

How much of his identity is wrapped up in his illness? 

Do BPD have a real identity? I have read that pwBPD don't have a true sense of identity. I thought that is why they mirror and attach to people, to give them a sense of identity.

Where's the line between illness and personality?

Since BPD is a personality disorder. Their personality is the illness. So in effect there would be no line. That's why it's so hard to treat, because someone's personality is so ingrained into them. I'm just guessing at all of this. Maybe someone more knowledgeable will come alone and answer.

[fromheeltoheal]

How much of his identity is wrapped up in his illness? 

Do BPD have a real identity? I have read that pwBPD don't have a true sense of identity. I thought that is why they mirror and attach to people, to give them a sense of identity.

Where's the line between illness and personality?

Since BPD is a personality disorder. Their personality is the illness. So in effect there would be no line. That's why it's so hard to treat, because someone's personality is so ingrained into them. I'm just guessing at all of this. Maybe someone more knowledgeable will come alone and answer.

A borderline is someone who didn't successfully detach from their primary caregiver in infancy, a necessary step most of us go through in developing an ego and a sense of 'self'.  Since they never successfully did that, long before they were able to reason cognitively, it got hardwired into their personality that they must attach to someone else to feel whole, effectively creating one person out of two, a difficult thing to get your head around at first, and unlike a 'you complete me' romantic gesture, which is a partnership between two autonomous individuals, it's an unhealthy fusing of psyches.  And since a borderline does not have a fully formed 'self' of their own, what shows up is an unstable sense of self, subject to whatever's going on externally and who they're attached to.  Think of it as no internal compass.  And not knowing who you are and being perpetually terrified of abandonment is very painful and confusing, and all of the behaviors come out of that.

[Pingo]

A borderline is someone who didn't successfully detach from their primary caregiver in infancy, a necessary step most of us go through in developing an ego and a sense of 'self'.  Since they never successfully did that, long before they were able to reason cognitively, it got hardwired into their personality that they must attach to someone else to feel whole, effectively creating one person out of two, a difficult thing to get your head around at first, and unlike a 'you complete me' romantic gesture, which is a partnership between two autonomous individuals, it's an unhealthy fusing of psyches.  And since a borderline does not have a fully formed 'self' of their own, what shows up is an unstable sense of self, subject to whatever's going on externally and who they're attached to.  Think of it as no internal compass.  And not knowing who you are and being perpetually terrified of abandonment is very painful and confusing, and all of the behaviors come out of that.

I could say all of this is true of myself as well.  But I do have an internal compass which led me to end my r/s with him.  When I asked 'where's the line between illness and personality' I realise it's an impossible question to answer.  As we were fantasising the 'what if he was fixed' scenario it really makes me see that it is impossible as there is no line between the illness and his personality.  It is who he is.  So recovery really is about managing the disorder, not making it disappear.

My ex had an acquired brain injury which he blamed ALL of his shortcomings, bad behaviours, insecurities, faults etc on.  It was his way of constantly being the victim, never having to take accountability for anything.  I spent the first year of our r/s trying to understand what was him and what was the brain injury until I finally realised it was one and the same. 

[fromheeltoheal]

it is impossible as there is no line between the illness and his personality.  

You're right; borderline personality disorder is just that, a disordered personality, a personality that didn't develop in the way that we label 'normal', or 'ordered', so it's disordered.  As we develop, become an autonomous individual with an ego and a 'self', we go through developmental stages, and if one of those stages doesn't get navigated 'normally', it gets hardwired into who we are, and it affects all of the stages downstream.  So the personality has the 'illness', there is no line between them.

[Skip]

fred6:

Are you referring to my vernacular? Or my whole premise that I have issues that contributed to the demise of our relationship?

That you are casting your issues as "f_cked up".  Own them.  :)on't beat yourself with them.  


Pingo, fromheeltoheal  :)o you know that this thread is about our over focus on our partners (a codependent trait) at the expense of seeing ourselves.

      psst... .you're doing that now  

The line we are talking about is the point at which we are in balance (or out of balance) in the way we are working examining the dynamics of our failed relationship.

[fred6]

fred6:

Are you referring to my vernacular? Or my whole premise that I have issues that contributed to the demise of our relationship?

That you are casting your issues as "f_cked up".  Own them.  :)on't beat yourself with them.  


Pingo, fromheeltoheal  :)o you know that this thread is about our over focus on our partners (a codependent trait) at the expense of seeing ourselves.

      psst... .you're doing that now  

The line we are talking about is the point at which we are in balance (or out of balance) in the way we are working examining the dynamics of our failed relationship.

So where exactly is the line between how we view our own contributions vs our SO's contributions to the failed relationship. I think that line gets blurred while dealing with the hurt, anger, and abandonment issues that we face after the relationship implodes.

[fromheeltoheal]

Pingo, fromheeltoheal  :)o you know that this thread is about our over focus on our partners (a codependent trait) at the expense of seeing ourselves.

      psst... .you're doing that now  

The line we are talking about is the point at which we are in balance (or out of balance) in the way we are working examining the dynamics of our failed relationship.

Actually this thread is about the 80+ recovery rate of borderlines, but as we know the focus can shift and shift again, as in any conversation.  But to your point, sometimes you need to cross the line to see where it is; have we found it peeps?

[tim_tom]

So where exactly is the line between how we view our own contributions vs our SO's contributions to the failed relationship. I think that line gets blurred while dealing with the hurt, anger, and abandonment issues that we face after the relationship implodes.

imo, I don't think the line is much further. Most of these people are a serious mind f to be involved with, the existence was emotionally draining and she was never happy... one day I just stopped trying...

I think it's fair for someone to be on here and say hey wait a minute, you have some issues you need to work through as well. Co dependancy, self esteem, lack of boundaries, whatever that me be... .all valid...

But I think we should be careful not to swing the pendulum too far. It's a dangerous games, by and large here, we are hurting, lonely, questioning ourselves,  doing the work to understand it and our role in... they are out with the next guy/girl living life. The last thing I need is to accept her blame for the demise of the relationship, to ignore all of the f'd up stuff she did, and set some expectation for myself that I should'n't have had needs, I shouldn't have had feelings or any expectations of her at all. It's a bit twisted and probably what got us into this mess to begin with.

Much better imo, for both analyzing the relationship and improving moving forward to understand that

1) It's ok that I have needs

2) It's ok for me to have certain expectations of a partner

3) It's ok also, to set boundaries that prevent abuse

4) I need these things to be able to walk away, rather then stay and let the situation continue to deteriorate

Inherent in all of the above is the understanding that I was involved with a disordered person who was abusive, by any criteria. I stayed, kept my mouth shut, didn't stand up for myself... .all things that I own, but I stop short of thinking that I my role was causal in anyway, or that there is some magic formula that would've allowed me to successfully managed #1 - #3 with her.  This is a pattern she goes through with work, friends, hobbies, everything and it's directly related to the way her mind works... not me!

[Skip]

So where exactly is the line between how we view our own contributions vs our SO's contributions to the failed relationship. I think that line gets blurred while dealing with the hurt, anger, and abandonment issues that we face after the relationship implodes.

It does and we all need to help each other stay balanced in our healing.  Thats the benefit of a group - some of the more senior members can help center and mentor the more junior members and we can all ask that of each other.

Sometime we get a little piranha a get in a frenzy wit each other when we need to be slowing it down and asking each other balancing questions.

Like you you and me Fred.  You're in a pretty raw state (rightfully so) and I'm trying to help you stay in the green zone or at least yellow (no red)   

We all can do this for each other.

[fred6]

It does and we all need to help each other stay balanced in our healing.  Thats the benefit of a group - some of the more senior members can help center and mentor the more junior members and we can all ask that of each other.

Sometime we get a little piranha a get in a frenzy wit each other when we need to be slowing it down and asking each other balancing questions.

Like you you and me Fred.  You're in a pretty raw state (rightfully so) and I'm trying to help you stay in the green zone or at least yellow (no red)   

We all can do this for each other.

I can appreciate that Skip. Yeah, I have a feeling that this is going to take a while to sort out. Hopefully, not too long though.

[vortex of confusion]

Much better imo, for both analyzing the relationship and improving moving forward to understand that

1) It's ok that I have needs

2) It's ok for me to have certain expectations of a partner

3) It's ok also, to set boundaries that prevent abuse

4) I need these things to be able to walk away, rather then stay and let the situation continue to deteriorate

Inherent in all of the above is the understanding that I was involved with a disordered person who was abusive, by any criteria. I stayed, kept my mouth shut, didn't stand up for myself... .all things that I own, but I stop short of thinking that I my role was causal in anyway, or that there is some magic formula that would've allowed me to successfully managed #1 - #3 with her.  This is a pattern she goes through with work, friends, hobbies, everything and it's directly related to the way her mind works... not me!

As I read this, I also thought, "I can reject how somebody treats me even if it isn't abusive." It has helped me a little because it seems like people (me mostly) seem to judge whether or not a behavior is acceptable based on "Is this abusive?" You know what! Who cares if it is abusive? What should matter is whether or not I like being treating a certain way. If I don't want him to rub my feet or do other nice things for me, it is okay for me to say NO without feeling like a horrible person for rejecting his nice gestures. It doesn't matter how "nice" somebody else is trying to be, it is okay for me to say NO. So many times I have gotten caught up in the FOG by his attempts to be nice.

[/quote]

[fromheeltoheal]

1) It's ok that I have needs

2) It's ok for me to have certain expectations of a partner

   

Yes!  And it's important to focus on those needs and whether or not they're being met, as opposed to ignoring them and focusing all or our energy on the other person's, being a People Pleaser.

3) It's ok also, to set boundaries that prevent abuse

Yes, and to also choose partners who won't violate boundaries and act disrespectfully and abusively.  Too many boundaries creates our own prison, gotta let the good ones in, but too few boundaries, or weak ones, lets us get stomped on by the wrong ones.  Another line to define.

4) I need these things to be able to walk away, rather then stay and let the situation continue to deteriorate

Yes, sometimes the only option left in boundary preservation is to walk away, and better yet don't walk into the wrong one to begin with, but live and learn, and we're getting pretty wise, yes?