Having trouble ending Marriage

[Admiral Snackbar]

Hi,

I’ve been with my wife for over 6 years. We dated for 5 years and as of now, we have been married for a little over a year. I moved out of my wife and I’s house a month and a half ago and have had minimal contact with her since. Looking back our relationship was unstable and unhealthy to a degree and things intensified since getting married, particularly so in the last 6 months. There were frequent suicide threats /attempts on her part and frequent lashing out, strive, and hysterical crying. She said she wanted to divorce multiple times and said she hated me for marrying her since I was struggling with the relationship. During one fight she said she was going to divorce me and take everything from me and then told me she was going to kill my family and friends. She then said she was going to kill me and threatened me with a knife.

During our last fight, we went from strive about gym plans to her saying “I should have murdered you that night. I know I shouldn’t think that but that’s how I feel” to her saying she wanted a divorce to her attempting suicide to her later in the night wanting to cuddle with me. She didn’t think she has a problem and I met with her parents to try and explain everything and they tried blaming her birth control meds and her dad said “woman say things they don’t mean” and were very much in denial and not alarmed of the suicide attempts or of the fact that she threatened me with a knife.

I have been seeing a Christian counselor and have met with a lawyer but I’m having trouble making the final decision to separate permanently. She has surprisingly been respecting my space for the most part which is making me second guess things a bit. I know I can’t go back to how things were and I’ve felt much better since separating but I don’t want to hurt her or give up on the relationship. Any advice is much appreciated

Thanks

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Tattered Heart]

Hi Admiral ,

I"m sorry that you are going through such difficulty in your relationship. Is your counselor helping you find new ways to approach your W?

In regards to the comment she made about murdering you, that's scary. Has she threatened to kill you before? Does she have a history of DV against you? Are you safe?

Our workshop on THe Dos and Don'ts of a BPD Relationship may help you with some ideas on how you can communicate better with your W during your time apart.

[isilme]

She didn’t think she has a problem and I met with her parents to try and explain everything and they tried blaming her birth control meds and her dad said “woman say things they don’t mean” and were very much in denial and not alarmed of the suicide attempts or of the fact that she threatened me with a knife.

The knife thing - my dad was like that.  He'd dysregulate, and then grab a knife and threaten to kill me, mom and then himself.  Sometimes I'd be able to talk him down, sometimes he'd storm off, knife in hand, and I'd worry he'd never come back and kill himself somewhere.  Mom was also BPD, and liked to yell at him he was not a man because he never stabbed us.  Those were fun days. 

Yes, her family is in denial, and have probably seen this type of behavior before, and in their homes, it may even be considered "normal".  I learned when I met my father's family of origin (FOO) that their dysfunction was spread pretty deep, and even the "nice" ones participated in the crazy.  I did not meet them till I was about 15, and so I was able to see that their ways were not really GOOD ways to be, but they'd all lived like this their whole lives and so it did not seem strange to them to know Granny was being manipulative and trying to make people feel bad to control them, but playing along anyway and being manipulative back.

And a family of origin often is, as they have been, well, pretty much part of the problem a lot of the time, ignoring red flags, enacting some of the abandonment that leads to developing full-on BPD, etc.  They are likely not going to be a source of help. 

I will hazard a guess she is "respecting your space" right now because she's not sure if she's in push or pull mode, or what you are going to do, and she may be having a slight "oh ___" reaction in the back of her mind to the fact you may just go ahead and end things.   

Good news is, unless there is some outside pressure forcing you to decide NOW, ASAP, you don't have to.  You can take all the time you want/need, as long as finances and other pressures aren't forcing your hand.  You can work on you, analyze what you want from this relationship, and what you can reasonably expect based on a  few possible outcomes - she gets no help, she gets some help, you get no help, you get some help, you both seek counseling together, etc. 

How does going back right now make you feel?  I cringe at the thought of ever seeing my parents again, which tells me I am in no way ready to be around them.  Do you feel like that?  Have you laid any groundwork to protect yourself legally?  As the man, you are likely to be the one first arrested should the cops ever need to be called, regardless of who called and what's happened.  As the woman, sorry, but in our society, she is still going to be more likely seen initially as a victim.  Domestic violence is terrible, and it's even worse when preconceived notions might prevent the truth from being understood and addressed. 

[Admiral Snackbar]

@Tattered, I have been sticking with the no contact for awhile now and my counselor has thought it may be good to talk on the phone soon. The time with the knife is the only action she has taken in regards to killing me and I don’t believe she has communicated that threat other that in our last fight. There isn’t a history of DV, she has slapped my chest or punched my arm during fights sometimes but nothing crazy. I am safe as I have been moved out for almost 2 months

@isilme, thanks a lot for sharing. The family aspect is very concerning as they are who she is the closest with and in whom she confides in the most so that right there makes me feel that there is little hope that she can change. And I agree with your guess as to why she has been respecting my space. I think she is trying to be on her best behavior in order to get me back and I also believe that she will say anything to get me back i.e. she will go to counseling and let me spend money and spend time with my friends etc. She has already left a message to my family saying everything is all her fault and that I have always treated her well. I do feel some pressure to act soon as we still have a joint credit card and I am still on our town home lease. She has always been very tight with money (she was controlling about it and I felt like I couldn’t spend much even though we both have good jobs) so I don’t think  she would rack up a ton of debt but it is possible and is a concern. To get my name off the account we must close the credit card and I’m worried that doing this will set her off so I want to have all my ducks in a row legally first.

I have definitely been working on myself and thinking about our relationship and the pros and cons to going back and I honestly can’t think of many pros. Going back does not sound appealing because I felt terrible in the relationship and felt like I was imprisoned and had no autonomy.I also felt like I couldn’t be myself and I saw that everything was about her and I had a great deal of anxiety and was depressed to a degree. I don’t have legal protection yet but I plan to enact a separation agreement and have already met with a lawyer. I’m just having a hard time making that final decision because I don’t want to hurt her and I want to be sure I’m making the right decision

[Radcliff]

Admiral Snackbar, the first and most important thing I will say is to trust your gut.  Give your gut some time to reach its true point, but as isilme says, how you feel about things is very important to pay attention to.

Regarding domestic violence, survivors tend to minimize it.  Yes, many have it worse than you, and I'm not trying to make a federal case, but it's important that you recognize what has been going on, and that domestic violence typically escalates.  Yes, threatening you with a knife and saying she'd kill you is domestic violence.  But you are minimizing the fact that she hit you in the chest and arm.  Sure, for a guy you might think it's no biggie, that you've been hit harder playing sports.  Marriage is not a contact sport (OK, maybe there are appropriate times for contact  )  Seriously, though you need zero tolerance on stuff like that.  Likewise, other abusive behaviors like threatening your family are not acceptable.  Other behaviors you have not mentioned but often occur include blocking your path or trapping you in a room, or depriving you of sleep.

Back to the knife, though, that's pretty concerning.  A threat with a specific method, and use of a weapon sets things apart from the average "I'm so upset with you I want to kill you" threat.  Consider taking the MOSAIC threat assessment survey.  Just taking the survey is educational as you see what questions it asks.  You might also want to read this bpdfamily article on BPD and physical abuse.  I'm not saying you need to run for the hills, just be responsible about this like you would be with belay ropes while climbing, or buckling in and putting a helmet on while racing a car.

But... .this is not a run message.  Just very important things for you to consider.  The flip side is that you will never have more power to negotiate than you do now.  You said she'd do anything to get you back.  Would she be willing to sign up for DBT training?  I.m.h.o., that is the one thing that offers a shot at real long term change.  With you out of the house and if she wants you back, you just might be able to pull it off.  Have you learned much about DBT?

Finally, be cautious with that counselor.  He or she may well not have a background with personality disorders, and likely does not have a background with domestic violence.  If his or her advice rings true, great, but if it's at odds with other trusted sources, we come back to "trust your gut."

WW

[Admiral Snackbar]

I feel like my gut is leaning towards ending the relationship. I see what you are saying about minimizing the domestic violence. I guess it’s easy for it to seem less bad after the fact and after some time has passed also because I became so desensitized to everything. It certainly wasn’t okay indeed and I recall when she slapped my chest, it was like a switch for me and I immediately jumped up and said a view curse words and had to decompress in another room. I also agree that they tend to escalate which was the pattern we were on and after the knife incident, it’s even easier to understand that things can easily escalate. You are also 100% accurate on her blocking my path or trapping me in a room and depriving me of sleep. She blocked and trapped me numerous times including the time with the knife as well as our last fight where she barged into the room I was in and then she got into the bathroom I had retreated to and wouldn’t let me out of the bathroom first and then the room. We had so many fights late at night even though she knew how important sleep was to me.

I am looking into the MOSAIC and I have also read physical abuse article. My family and friends are very concerned for my safety if I were to go back and the majority of them think It is wise to end the relationship. I agree her wanting me back could be a strong bargaining chip but my concern is that it would not be genuine meaning that she would do and say anything to get me back and not with the actual intention of getting better. I feel that she may start therapy but would not stick with it and that she would hope for things to go back to the way they were before I left.

I can’t say I know much about DBT at the moment but I will look into it. And I see what you mean about the counselor. He has some experience with BPD clients and he always presents things in an objective way and does not push me one way or the other which is helpful.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply 

[Radcliff]

Admiral Snackbar, in reading your latest post I am again thinking that you have a pretty good handle on things.  And that's something to feel good about, since situations like yours can definitely get one's mind bent around a bit.  Intervention and returning to the relationship is actually a "thing."  There's talk in the batterer intervention community about how abused partners use enrollment in an intervention program as a cue that it's OK to return to the relationship, when it may not be.  Returning can be a very dangerous time (as can leaving).  If she were to go the intervention route, you might want her to be in both a batterer program as well as DBT.  And you would want to be very slow about resuming the relationship and super cautious about moving back in (paying extra attention to warning flags and moving things along only *after* there is solid improvement).  I'm not pushing you towards intervention, but those issues above were some that we hadn't covered, so I wanted to make sure to get them in. 

Despite my little dive into the weeds there, keep paying attention to how you feel. 

Sounds like the counselor is helpful, that's great.

DBT is a program that targets the emotional regulation and other issues of people with BPD.  It's an impressive, powerful program that teaches skills (i.e., not a fluffy, "lie on the couch and just talk" approach).  It is evidence-based, and has solid research to back up its potential to give good results.  But it's very hard work, is not available in all areas, and certainly doesn't have a 100% success rate.

I'm glad you are safe and have the space to work all of this through.  Keep us posted.

WW

[Admiral Snackbar]

WW, thanks again for the advice and for taking the time to post. I definitely have a lot more clarity now that I have been away from the situation. While I was in it, I felt like I didn't know up from down and my mind was definitely bent around. I appreciate you being exhaustive in your advice and not leaving anything else because I feel like knowledge is power and having the most amount of knowledge possible allows for the most well informed and level headed decision to be made. It’s good to know about the batterer program as well as strategies for my potential re-entry.

I’ve also heard DBT is the best shot at the person getting help and I also know it’s a long and difficult road in which the BPD has to really want to get better.

I am currently doing well and have been staying at a friend’s place and they have been wonderful to me. It is a safe environment and they can also empathize as my friend had to cut ties with his mother who has NPD and BPD traits. I am feeling much more like myself again and have had far less anxiety and it has been refreshing having control of my life back.

-Snackbar

[Radcliff]

Admiral Snackbar, I'm quite glad to hear that you're safe, and feeling less anxious and more in control.  Living with someone who is abusive can certainly spike anxiety off the charts!  Sounds like your friend is providing just the kind of support you need.  As you work through things, let us know how it's going, even if you're not feeling like you're needing help.  We learn from each other's experiences and it's safe to say that others in a similar position will follow your story and learn from it.

WW