Abandonment feelings?

[griz]

I know that people with BPD have a fear of abandonment but I am not sure I understand it.  My DD is always fearful that people will leave her.  This has gone on for a long time however lately she has been talking more about it (which I think is good since she never talked much in the past).  She told me that she is always afraid that her friends will leave her or won't like her anymore and she also told me that when she is with her friends in a group and one friend is talking to another she worries that they are talking about her.  She told me that she knows this is not what is happening but she can't help feeling that way.  Last night a bunch of her friends threw her a little surprise birthday dinner.  It was so nice and she had a great time but before she went to bed she got very sad focusing on what if they all decide to not want to be her friend anymore. 

She is suppose to start therapy again this week and I told her that this would be a good thing to talk about with her therapist however I am just trying to understand it for me.  Can anyone give me so insight into this.?

Griz

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[twojaybirds]

My dd has never said it but it seems evident in fb posts and relationships.

She also calls me a lot thru phases and keeps tons of photos looking thru them.

I hear paranoid words like your dd especially jealousy to the extreme for no apparent reason. 

I think it is just more of the emotional disregulation and not knowing how to process these feelings typically

[Reality]

griz,

Interestingly, I have been thinking and reading a bit about attachment disorder, the inability to attach.  Your daughter is with others physically, yet not emotionally, so she feels detached, dissociated. 

Any insight from others would be helpful.  PwBPD seem to over-attach or not attach at all.

I think highly-sensitive children find it very difficult to manage the modern ways, both arents working, less time spent together.

Reality

[mikmik]

griz,

Perhaps your cancer and your dd's fear of loosing you (starting when she learned about it) complicates the "standard" abandonment issues pwBPD have.   Many of us, without BPD, have had abandonment issues.  Lots of times tied to a parent's illness  we experienced at a young age.  That illness could be mental illness, cancer, alcoholism, you name it.  It is a big feeling to deal with, but at least we don't have BPD on top if it.  I don't know why pwBPD suffer from fear of loss.  But I can understand her fear of loosing people, tied to the fear of loosing you.  That is so powerful.  The one person who is ALWAYS supposed to be there (in a child's mind) in fact may not be there.  What can you trust (in a child's mind) to be true anymore, if your mom can die?  If she can be taken away from you, anyone can be.  Once she starts to feel happy, something in her psyche reminds her that she can't trust her friends will be there?

Have you been able, recently, to validate her fears of loss, by exploring her feelings around you and your cancer?  I know she has two distinict avenues to approach the same issue. 

mik

[Reality]

griz,

Just wondering... .  I remember you writing about your dd's experience at high school and the way you and she were ostracized by families and friends.  No invite to ice-cream after concert etc 

etc etc etc etc

This terribly invalidating bullying experience would certainly have affected your daughter.  Justifiably, she is more wary.

Why would she trust people when many treated her so badly?  Let us be honest.  There are a lot of creepy people on the planet.  (Us excluded!)

Your illness may well be another thread to the feelings of abandonment. 

Having both parents working (trust me, I am an ardent feminist) for a highly-sensitive child could also be another thread of the abandonment issue.

Other trauma she experienced... .  

Being an observer, an introvert could also be part of this issue.  She is observing her friends.

Talking is a great healer.  The very fact that your daughter is talking to you is healing her fears more than you might imagine.

So good, griz, so good... .  

You and she are healing... .  

Reality

[griz]

mikmik and reality:

All of what you say is so true.  I know my bout with cancer really screwed things up.  I try not to blame myself but it is so hard not to.  The few times that I have tried to talk to her about it she has gotten really angry with me.  She gets angry because we did not tell her until she was older.  I have tried to explain to her many times that we did not tell her until she was old enough to understand to understand that I was okay but she always comes back to telling me I lied by omission.  I also know that everything that happened in high school has contributed to this.  She was bullied and treated so badly .  I understand how all of this has made her wary.  I myself who was always a very outgoing person before our friends ostracized us have become quite introverted and yes my trust in people is completely gone, but it seems like we have dealt with this in different ways and that is the complex part.  I understand why I don't trust people anymore.  I choose not to put myself out there to others and the few people in my life that have been there I still trust.  DD still puts herself out there (which is probably much healthier) but lives with the constant fear that they will leave her. She recognizes that this is not going to be true with everyone she meets but she says she can't stop obsessing about it.

I hope that talking with the T will help.  I can't imagine anyone spending their life living with such fear.  It makes me so sad when I think about all the feelings that are children have to deal with and how hard life must be internally for them.

Griz

[Being Mindful]

My d definitely deals with abandonment issues. We adopted her and she for years has struggled with fear of abandonment.

[Reality]

griz,

Two seemingly contradictory realities: yes, pwBPD have unimaginable emotional and psychological pain, maybe to the point where it is very physical AND pwBPD have many gifts that others do not have:compassion, humour, energy, vision, honesty, integrity, intelligence, good looks, creativity, etc.

A numinously beautiful and finely-tuned ship needs a highly-skilled crew and a knowledgeable and strong captain.

Our society has abdicated its responsibilities.  Often, the family is struggling to fill all the roles.

I know you already know this, just saying.

Reality

[whiletheseasonspass]

My dd had separation anxiety when little.  That is one issue.  

I only know now from what I have learned in the past few years that structure was very important to dd. She had structure every day- even though I worked- because I worked.  :)d went to a great daycare place and dd felt at home there.  THAT was a good place!

Then we moved.  I stopped working.  There was no structure like dd had - each day was different until she went to school- then there was structure again.  At that time of the move I fell into a depression- that was moderate.  I tried to hide it from dd but she is too perceptive.  So no structure and mom not the same due to depression.  She was affected by both.  One day I was rattling around in kitchen and dd comes screaming into kitchen - WAS I PLANNING TO LEAVE HER THAT MOMENT!

Now I see but at the time I had NO idea where this was coming from.  


She had trouble fitting in. Looking back I am sure she had attachment issues- and was never the type of child who climbed on my lap or reached up to be held like I see other children do- UNLESS she got really scared because someone she didn't trust (she was afraid) a friend or relative - who began talking to her- then she'd scale up me like a monkey up a tree to cling to me and hide her face in my chest- afraid of people who worried her.  She was very scared.  

I feel so sad for dd that I never knew what I now know- I did not know anything at all - what was going on with her.  

But to this day- dd29 still has abandonment issues.  Also she has pushed her friends away and wonders why they don't bother with her.   Her physical illness which affected her brain- has amplified much that is not good for her.

I am helpless- completely helpless to help her in so many ways because she does not see or want to hear that she has mental illness.  What I can do NOWADAYS is validate- and constantly tell her how much I love her. Dh does the same.  

Also you talk about your cancer.  I got sick too- and that send dd spiraling downward.  I can look back and see a direct cause and effect.  This was several years after the kitchen incident (when she feared I was going to leave-).   When I got sick- Dd's grades plummeted and this was before she got sick with her illness- the physical illness I always write about.  That behavior she exhibited- anger and acting out and not caring about school suddenly-  was the beginning of when I needed this board very very badly to help dd get some help- which I did not discover (this board)  until dd was 25.  Finding this board AT LEAST has helped me understand- AND has taught me how NOT to act and HOW to act or speak to dd.  How much love and reassurance she needs.  How she needs validation but NOT enabling.  

I would have sent dd to an RTC if I could have- I never knew they existed.  

I tried to get dd help back then but the help was limited- nowadays there is so much more focus on troubled teens AND even troubled young people- it is all around- the help.  But back then it was elusive.  AND being sick- myself- I was limited back then- I think now- I might have taken her to local pediatric psych hospital for eval. but I just thought that she had an extra hard case of being a teen.  AND I was also invalidating by my ignorance/ naivety of what to do like communicating with dd in ways that would help her.  And being sick- (me) worsened my thinking outside the box capabilities to have even thought about such a place.

Anyway- not self-blaming.  Just feel badly - about the way it all went and the bad luck etc etc- and that no- life did not turn out as I expected.  

At any rate- I hope the T helps - and that is great that this is going to happen.  You are a great mom!  And a loving mom!

 

wtsp

[jellibeans]

In the BPD head they constantly hear... .  I am not good enough... .  if they don't get a call from a friend when they were suppose to they instantly think they don't like me anymore... etc... .  instead of thinking hey I bet they got busy or held up some place and could call... .  they tend to think the worse. Most people would not read so much into a small thing but the BPD does... .  I think they also get hurt very easily... .  and feel slighted by the smaleest things. Is it the anxiety? The lack of self worth? But they always think the worse... .  

[MammaMia]

Oh boy... .  the other night my BPD son called and asked me to come to his place for dinner.  I had already eaten and told him that.  He got angry and said I had just told him to "F---off"!  I explained that was not true.  I had no idea he would call, I was hungry, so I ate, but I could still come and visit if he wanted me to.  Of course, he said no.  We talked for a while about other issues and ended the conversation on a positive note.

This is an example of how the BPD brain works.  Rejection and abandonment are HUGE.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

Yes MN that is exactly it.  DD always thinks the worst and your examples are exactly how she thinks.  If someone doesn't return her call or text right away, they now hate her and don't want to be her friend anymore.  Her thoughts never entertain that they are just busy or out.  It is always a rejection of her yet she sees the opposite in others.  Today I mentioned that I had called a friend of mine the other day and thought it was weird that I hadn't heard from her.  I had just said it very matter of fact not like I was worried and DD chimed in Mom, she probably is just busy I'm sure she is fine. 

I wish she could think that way for herself.

Griz

[Reality]

griz,

That is so sweet how your daughter used her wise mind to reassure you.  I guess her strong emotions drive out that perspective sometimes when she is dealing with her own situations and relationships.

Reality

[griz]

So here we are once again. On Friday evening one of DD's friends and DD bf made a small surprise Birthday party for DD.  It was very nice and the friend reached out and invited a few of the new friends DD has made at school this year.  They had never met before but she was able to contact them through facebook.  Anyway everyone had a nice time and DD had a great weekend.  On the way home from work today DD mentioned to me that she was feeling uncomfortable because while she was at school with her friends she noticed that her other friend ( i'll call her X) kept texting her school friends.  It appears at the party they started talking and X got everyones phone number.  Now this has happened before with X.  She and DD have been friends for a long time but whenever DD includes her in something she seems to get right in there and sort of take over.  DD mentioned that this was really bothering her.  Well we are not home more than 15 minutes when dd's bf comes for a visit and we are all having a nice time when DD gets a text message and immediately starts shaking and crying  We asked her what was wrong and she became very angry yelling, see I told you this would happen, I knew it, I told you.  I asked her what was going on and she told me that one of her school friends just texted her to let her know that the sleepover plans they had for the weekend would now include X.  DD was beyond upset.  Why does she do this? They are not her friends?  Why can't she ever let me just have my own friends? 

I was very validating, telling her I could certainly understand why this would upset her once again and I gave her some direction on how she could handle it.  Both BF and I talked with her and then my older daughter came in and told her that she thought she should explain to her "new friends" that although she really cares about X she has on multiple occasions brought drama into  a group and she would prefer to not involve X in the group.  In the meantime BF (the saint but sometimes overly saintly and overly protective) decided to call X and tell her that she should not have done this and she should excuse herself from these friendships.  So X texts DD's friends and says something along the lines of, "although I am glad I met you and I think you are very nice it seems that DD is uncomfortable with me talking to you so I don't think we should talk anymore".  DD friend forwarded the text to DD and asked her if she told X not to speak to her.  DD explained that she did not but then got hysterical because she thinks her new friends probably think she is a "psycho". 

I told her this is one of the reasons that I think people should talk and not text because  you can explain yourself better and I told DD if she could n't talk on the phone she should just tell them she would speak to them in person in school on Thursday.  DD is still upset and anxiety ridden that her friends will not hate her.  The bottom line is DD is just so fearful on losing anyone she gets close to that she lives in constant fear.   She was suppose to go to her first therapy session today but the T was ill and rescheduled for Thursday. 

So this is what I said to DD, " I am so sorry you are feeling this way.  I know this is so hard for you and it is one of your biggest fears.  I think everything will work out fine and I hope that you will be able to work with T on this so that you can learn to feel more comfortable", and then I made her a bowl of pastina, which if you are Italian , you think makes everything better.

Sorry for the super long post, I just needed to get it out.

Griz

[MammaMia]

Teenage girls!

The long and short of it may be that the other girls invited X simply BECAUSE she was DD's friend. Maybe they thought

it would make DD happy to have her best friend there.  Or maybe they did not want X to feel left out... .  

My granddaughter is 15... .  the drama never stops!   BFF's one day... .  arch enemies the next.   Back and forth, up and down.

The teen years are already so emotional, but when you add BPD to the mix, it must be just awful.

[griz]

Yes MM, that is exactly what I think.  Her new friends wanted to include DD's friend thinking it would be good to have her best friend there.  It is so sad that her BPD mind always thinks the worst.

Griz.

[BioAdoptMom3]

Griz, I can so understand how you feel about blaming yourself even though you know it is not your fault.  My DD is adopted (and an abandoned baby) so we were already dealing with issues of abandonment and rejection, then 2 years ago when she was 11 I was diagnosed with breast cancer.  That is when all her issues with fear of abandonment started to come out, though we did deal with separation anxiety until she was about 12.  I am not sure how to handle it either, but I think that fear of abandonment is the reason for their lonely feelings even they are with others and their lack of ability to truly nuture their relationships.  They are so afraid if they remain friends with someone for too long that friend will eventually reject him or her.  I wish I had the answer.  :)D is also in counseling for relationship issues as well as cutting and eating disorders, as well as on Prozac and Abilify, which does seem to help tremendously with the mood swings.  I feel like I am rambling, but wanted you to know that you are not alone and that I am sure it is common to fear abandonment when a parent is or has been seriously ill!  

((HUGS))

[jellibeans]

hmmmm... .  if I didn't know better I would say my dd15 is living to two homes... .  mine and yours... .  I can just hear the voice saying "they don't really like you" or "they think I am crazy"... .  "why can't I keep friends"... .  I think you said the right things... .  it is painful but she needs to live through this and see that everything will be okay... .  my stomach turned just reading your post... .  the same fears over and over again... .  I just wish my dd had some friends left... .  

hugs to you... .   ... .  i hope therapy goes well

[griz]

Thanks Biomom:  I agree. I think that it probably is so frightening to think that the most important person in your life can be taken from you.  Hopefully she will begin to deal with this.

On a brighter note, yesterday she went to her first therapy session with her old therapist a DBT.  No argument about going except for when we got there she was noticably nervous and said I wish I could just go home.  She went in and her T called me in about 45 minutes later.  I sat down and she told me that DD has decided to resume therapy and go back to group AND start her meds. I calmly said "that's great, I am really happy to hear that" (although I wanted to jump on the chair and do a happy dance).  On the ride home DD told me she had alot of things to work on and we talked about a few things that were bothering her.  It was a good conversation. When we got home she took out her meds that I had in the cabinet and said, Okay so here I go... .    I laughed and said you will be fine.  After she took it she started asking me what if she has a terrible reaction or something happens from the meds.  I assured her she would be fine, but we would be right there if she needed us.  She actually spent the rest of the evening watching some silly TV with me and she went to bed.  This morning she was happy and we got out the door right on time. 

I am praying that she stays with this and she is ready for help and to do the work.

Griz

[qcarolr]

Griz - this is so awesome. A good start for today. 

qcr  

[MammaMia]

Griz

Wonderful news.  She is trying... .  HUGE accomplishment!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

Griz, there are a couple of things I seem to remember from the books on BPD:

I think it is the "object constancy": "refers to the child having an internal sense of belonging and safety, even away from the presence of the mother. All those experiences of constant loving pay off in a child's inner sense of security. It's been built in." (Boundaries - H. Cloud & J. Townsend) In a pwBPD somehow for whatever reason, it did not happen properly, and so they end up extremely insecure regarding relationships in general.

One thing I seem to remember, is that pwBPD tends to perceive people around themselves almost as different people every time they interact with them. An example: today, they have a positive interactions with you, you are a good person. Tomorrow, they have a bad interaction with you, you are a bad person (it is AS IF they were not able to remember, who you are, what you are like - and therefore, they don't know, what to expect - acceptance, or rejection? They are afraid of rejection and abandonment, and they never know when or why it may happen. Very scary place to be, lots of anxiety)

Two, they perceive themselves the same way. They mess up, they are a bad person. They do well, they are ok. One of the books said that every day is like a new day, when they need to prove themselves. So they fear that they will fail (and yesterday's accomplishments don't count).

I think it has to do with the general set-up of their brain, that they do not properly integrate their memories into a cohesive picture to draw upon. They simply act and react in the here and now.

Also, I wonder if the friend X might not be a good fit for your DD, it seems from your posts, that X acts in ways that your DD perceives as threatening her relationships with others. Is that accurate? Maybe creating more distance from X might be a possible suggestion?

[vivekananda]

Hi Griz,

I've been reading of your ups and downs ... .  I am so pleased there are ups now 

someone, I think, said: 'you are a great mom' - well I agree.

I have nothing much to contribute to the abandonment issue at the present. It's a really complex area and my head needs a break for the moment... .  

cheers,

Vivek    

[griz]

Thanks Viv, I try to be a good mom and I am trying hard not to judge myself based on if my children are doing ok.  I have a really hard time separating the two.  If DD is having a bad day I'm ok, if DD is struggling... .  what did I do wrong. 

PO:  I am not sure if X is someone DD should distance herself from.  DD and X have been friends since they are two and X has always been there for DD.  X has her own issues and does not have many friends.  I think this is why when she meets friends through DD she latches on so tightly and oversteps her bounds.  It would have been great if DD could have seen this situation as good and included X in her new group of friends but clearly DD is not capable of doing this just yet.  Maybe in therapy she will be able to deal with her abandonment issues.  I hope so. 

All has been going well.  DD started taking her medication a few days ago and is ready for therapy and to resume DBT group.  I will be going with her as I did last time.  I asked her if she minded if dh went to group with her but she said she would prefer me to come.  Whatever it takes, I;ll be there, I was just hoping for a little break and I thought that the DBT group would be good for dh also.

With all of this you would thing, gee Griz you must be so happy but for some weird reason I am so sad.  I have been sad for days now.  I keep thinking I should be happy but I just find I don't want to interact with anyone. I took myself for a haircut today (haven't had one in a full year ) and I thought that might cheer me up. Dh came with me and we went to lunch.  We were walking back to the car and I looked at myself in a store window to check out my new haircut and all I saw was an old woman.  The past years have aged me so.  Well sorry for all the complaining.

Griz

[pessim-optimist]

I see, Griz, that makes sense. You're right, it would not be a good idea for DD to distance herself from X.

In this case it might be an opportunity to practice "distress tolerance" in this situation through therapy, if and when your DD is able to... .  

I hear you, life feels often sad even though it "shouldn't".    Be gentle with yourself. You know, sometimes it's a sign we're just plain worn out... .  

I just read the "Understanding the Borderline Mother" book. It's a tough read... .  But oh, SO helpful! One of the things it talks about is that children of pwBPD often grow up having chronic anxiety and chronic depression. That sure explained things a bit. Like, why life often seems so sad and scary even though nothing major is happening. Some of us may have won the "genetic lottery", however, the scars are there and sometimes we cannot heal before we fully understand our past... .  

[MammaMia]

Griz

We are in crisis mode so much of the time, that when things fall into place it seems too good to be true, and sometimes it is... .  BUT sometimes it is the beginning of real change.  We are often  unconsciously waiting for the other shoe to drop and our hopes to be dashed... .  again. 

Focus on what has gone right.  Try to stay positive.

You have been so supportive and loving to get DD to this point, and you probably are physically exhausted are emotionally drained.  BPD can suck the life out of a rock!  Get some rest, recharge your battery, and things will look better.

Continue to make your DD feel like she can do this, and if she fails, do not beat yourself up. 

Remember, we are just along for the ride... .  our pwBPD are driving.

[jellibeans]

Griz... .  I hope you have a better day tomorrow... .  sometimes you just have a bad day for no reason at all... .  I am glad you got your hair cut and did something for yourself... .  I am so happy your dd has gone to therapy and taking meds! WOW... .  

Maybe you are fearing the other shoes dropping? Don't anticipate trouble... .  just breath in and lounge in that rare state of going forward and not backwards... .  its baby steps time and your dd it taking some big ones.

Today is another day and I hope the sun is shining in your world... .  get outside and let it hit you... .  

[vivekananda]

all I saw was an old woman.  The past years have aged me so.

well can I relate to that one! But I know that if I stand tall, pull my shoulders back and open my heart to the world, it'll be ok. But my own illusions of that femme fatal are right out the window. We age and the worry and stress we experience takes its toll on us, and that is life. So, our task is to enjoy it as much as possible and allow ourselves to be old and therefore demand from the world a place for us. But the cellulite, the wrinkles, the struggles to get out of bed regardless of the aches and pains and to stand up, can all be a bit much. Griz, I will let you wallow for a day to two, ok? Than do some acceptance 

BPD can suck the life out of a rock! 

You said it sister!

Today is another day and I hope the sun is shining in your world... .  get outside and let it hit you... .  

amen to that 

Vivek    

[lbjnltx]

We all age on the outside, we grow more mature on the inside as well.

I may not be the young beauty I once was outwardly... .  inside... .  I'm gorgeous and I know all of you are too

[vivekananda]

yay