New Here... Convinced My husband has BPD

[jbkt16]

Hi, I am new here, I was referred to this board through a marriage forum.  I have been pretty convinced that my husband had a personality disorder for quite some time now, but I wasn't sure which one or if it really mattered.  Thought I would be stuck in the hell forever and didn't think he would ever be willing to get "help" or that "help" would ever be enough to change him.  Things have spiraled out of control over the last couple years, and I am now leaving.  I never thought I would say that... .

He has been extremely controlling, jealous, and abusive all throughout our almost 12 year marriage.  Majority of the abuse has been mental / emotional hell, but there has been times where he crosses the line physically. 

To add to the complexity of our situation, we are both teachers, and work on the same campus.  He is on "good behavior" right now, but he has been harassing me at campus basically off and on all year.

The more and more I read about BPD it is just flooring me.  I feel like I am reading my life.  It is such a shame that I fell for this crap.  I am an intellegent, educated, very strong woman.  How did I fall for this?  I was young at the time we got married, only 19.  But honestly even then, I saw the red flags, but they didn't start coming out until we were already talking marriage, and then I guess I told myself, "no one is perfect", the more he sees that I really do love him, the less he will feel these ways, etc.  Eventually I felt like he was making me go insane.  I got to the point where I would yell, cuss at him, etc.  It felt like he was driving me to insanity.  The straw that broke the camels back and made me separate from him, was when he destroyed my cell phone after I threatened to "call the cops" on him.

We have been separated for 2 months now, and I am done.  At first I thought I was just giving him time to "get help" (but away from me), but he has continued to hurt me throughout the separation and I just don't have the energy to do it anymore.  I am trying to find legal help and file for divorce.  I don't trust what he could be capable of once he realizes that it is over.  Will I be harassed by him the rest of my life? We have two little boys who look up to him and don't really understand what is going on.  The oldest thinks "daddy is on a time out because he needs to learn how to treat mommy better".  But he will be devastated when it is really over.  I just have to keep reminding myself that living in the environment was NOT healthy for them... .

Thanks for any help or advice. I ordered the book "splitting" and it is supposed to come in the mail today... .

[juniorswailing]

Hello

The biggest thing for me was that when I eventually found this place, about 2 months into a 4 month relationship, I realised that

A) it wasn't me

B) I wasn't the only one.


I honestly thought I was going mad.


Read as much as you can across the boards, there is a lot of experience here.

[JaneStorm]

I love that you went with your instincts. I should have. I am a researcher and love to read and better my mind. It does help to have others that understand.

[JaneStorm]

Oh dear. I don't know how you lasted that long. My ex was with a bipolar woman for 10 years. I think they can't stay away from each other. He craves validation from other women and I realize he will give me an STD if I continue. I can't get my mind around any of this.

[ForeverDad]

Accept that you weren't able to get him to improve even after a dozen years.  Knowing that, it's unlikely he will change in the future, well, especially not if he doesn't seek meaningful therapy and apply it diligently in his life and thinking.  It's not your fault.  It's often been said that BPD is a disorder more evident the closer closer the relationship and what is closer than marriage?  His disorder blocks him from really listening to you due to all the perceived emotional baggage of the close relationship, any efforts to seek real improvement and he'll likely get triggered.

It likely got worse as you headed into marriage because he was letting his guard down.  Also, you had made a commitment to him and he may have felt your sense of obligation to the relationship meant you'd be less likely to leave once you saw his less guarded behaviors.  They have a Mask of Seeming Normalcy for incidental contact, the closer people are, the closer the emotional involvement, the more evident it is.

Boundaries are very important.  Since he likely won't change, the boundaries are yours, what you will or will not allow in your life.  Henry Cloud wrote a book on Boundaries.

It is what it is, not what you want it to be.  Sadly, that's the reality.

[livednlearned]

Hi jbkt16,

As soon as you can, order a copy of Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse by Bill Eddy. You can download it from Amazon directly to your computer.

Eddy is a former social worker who became a family law attorney, and he recognized that many contested divorces/custody battles that go to court involve someone with a personality disorder. He refers to these people as high-conflict personalities (HCPs). Typically, an HCP is a persuasive blamer, recruits negative advocates, and has a target of blame (you). Not all people with BPD are HCPs; however, all HCPs have a personality disorder. There is also a good website with some short, free articles on his website: www.highconflictinstitute.com.

Eddy also talks about the degree of severity with a BPD spouse. He describes these degrees as:

generally cooperative, not dangerous

not cooperative, not dangerous

not cooperative, dangerous

Is your BPD someone who has a history of doing dangerous things to you or the kids? Dangerous tends to go along with substance abuse, and sometimes with co-morbid diagnoses. It can be hard sometimes to find the line between extremely difficult (threats) and dangerous -- this is just to help understand what we're dealing with to help you think about strategy.

We generally advise people to play the divorce card close to your chest because for obvious reasons, it can escalate an already tense situation. You'll need time to plan carefully and in BPD divorces, having clear goals, a strategy, and anticipating how things will play out is critical to a favorable outcome for you and the kids.

There is a lot of collective wisdom on this board about high-conflict divorces, and lessons that will help you (in the link at the top of this board). If you don't feel you're in imminent danger, pace yourself and work these boards as much as you can until you feel confident about your strategy. Even with divorce, you'll be coparenting with him and there are communication skills that can help both you and your kids navigate their relationship with dad.

Does your husband think there is a chance you two will get back together? What type of separation agreement or living situation do you have (including schedule for the boys)? What ages are the kids?

You're not alone. People here care and have walked in your shoes.

Glad you found us.



LnL

[momtara]

I went through this with my ex. I wonder how you feel about custody issues? Could he ever hurt the kids? Do you feel like he'll try to get more custody than you have?

It's too bad most of us don't learn about this disorder sooner.

This board has been extremely helpful to me. It took me 2.5 years and getting the right post-divorce parent coordinator to get to a place where I feel ok and not scared of being divorced from my ex. I was too chicken to do it all right the first time. Also, my kids were young and I wanted to tread carefully. I won the last court battle in Sept and mostly have been off the boards since then just breathing and trying to relax. But I want to help.

[jbkt16]

Thanks so much y'all for the replies.  I didn't see them until today.  It has been so stressful... .I was desperately trying to find a lawyer that didn't ask for a huge retainer and for a loan big enough to at-least hire one!  Well I got approved for a $2500 loan which was half of what I was needing, then I ended up finding another lawyer who was asking for just that.  I pray I made the right choice.  Besides the fact that her cost fit my budget I also really liked her.  I met with her late last Thursday and she filed the paperwork on Friday.

I feel so nervous now just waiting for him to find out that the papers have been filed and that it is really over.  To answer some of your questions we have been doing a kind of separation for about two and a half months now.  The agreement was that I would live in the house from Wednesday to Sunday morning and that he would live there from Sunday morning until Wednesday morning, with the kids.  The only reason I agreed to this weird arrangement is because at the time I thought the kids getting to stay at the house full time made sense.  Saturday (just over a week ago) I packed clothes and some basics up and left the house for good.  The kids were with me, but I made sure to pack in the middle of the night so they wouldn't really see what was going on.  They are 5 and 3 year old boys.  Now after talking with lawyers, they say I should have told him to leave, instead of leaving myself.  This is so confusing to me, I didn't feel safe or comfortable being there, but somehow it would have looked better if I would have stayed?  Now we are under the same with my parents, I feel much safer and know that he is 20 minutes away and it is much less easy for him to just drive by (we were only a couple minutes down the road before).  We are still switching the kids on the same days, but when they are with me, we are living at my parents.  As soon as the divorce starts playing out and I know where I find a job (want to move to a nearby school district - I am a teacher) for next year, then I will begin to look into a new house for us.  Will the judge not understand that I wanted us to be able to be safe from his harassment and that I am trying to build a new life out from under him and his abuse? 

He wouldn't physically harm the boys and I know he loves them, and they certainly love him.  But what I do worry about is that he will use his bully tactics, manipulation, etc on them in the same way he does on me.  I don't want him teaching them that it is ok to treat people that way or to be treated that way.  Right now he is acting like "dad of the year" but he was never helpful with them in the past it was always me doing all the work.  All he ever did was play, when he felt like it, with them.

Yes, I am afraid that he is going to try to get more custody of the kids than would be healthy for them.  The standard every other weekend with him, is what I am shooting for, but he says he wants 50/50 with them.  Why is he saying this? He NEVER spent 50% of the time with them when we were under the same roof!   Also, his schedule is very demanding during majority of the year (he is a high school football and baseball coach), will the judge weight that heavily?  I am off everyday at 3 all school year long... .I am there for them all day every day as soon as they are out of school.  He is NOT available for them like that, not even close... .  Thanks in advance for any advice.  So scared that they could end up not having the support that they need and deserve if he gets more custody than he should.

[ForeverDad]

The agreement was that I would live in the house from Wednesday to Sunday morning and that he would live there from Sunday morning until Wednesday morning, with the kids.  The only reason I agreed to this weird arrangement is because at the time I thought the kids getting to stay at the house full time made sense.

I think we call that a form of helicopter parenting.  That doesn't work long term, few parents have the wealth to maintain 3 homes.  Besides, they need to have time in Your Home.  Yes, transitioning back and forth between Dad and Mom's homes isn't easy, but parents moving in and out all the time generally can't work for long.

They are 5 and 3 year old boys.  Now after talking with lawyers, they say I should have told him to leave, instead of leaving myself.  This is so confusing to me, I didn't feel safe or comfortable being there, but somehow it would have looked better if I would have stayed? ... .Will the judge not understand that I wanted us to be able to be safe from his harassment and that I am trying to build a new life out from under him and his abuse?

If the children are with you on your time and the house will eventually be sold, then that may work.  But as the lawyers see it, there are distinct disadvantages.  Living with your parents you may not get as much interim spousal or child support since your expenses will be unrealistically low.  Living with your parents probably isn't a permanent arrangement and so that might reflect poorly if he makes an issue of it in court.  It's not unusual in high conflict cases for only one parent to have court-ordered possession of the marital home.  There doesn't have to be DV, it makes sense to keep the distance between people in high tension cases.  (I'm of the male gender and I got possession of our home due to a Threat of DV case pending against her and when the temp PO was dismissed I stayed and she never tried to come back.)

Yes, I am afraid that he is going to try to get more custody of the kids than would be healthy for them.  The standard every other weekend with him, is what I am shooting for, but he says he wants 50/50 with them.  Why is he saying this?

Maybe he wants to appear as FOTY - Father of the Year.  A public appearance of Normalcy is important to virtually everyone, with a pwBPD or some other acting-out PD it's a Public Mask of Near Normalcy (that crumbles in private situations and over time).  Maybe he wants to avoid paying child support for the next umpteen years.  Maybe he wants to Punish or Retaliate.  Maybe he wants to Control and Dictate.  There could be multiple reasons.

However, if you've agreed to nearly equal time now, 4 of 7 days each week, then it may be harder for you to change the parenting time percentages in court since a judge may not be inclined to change what seems to be working.

Also, splitting each weekend is not a long term solution, though sometimes unusual schedules are made in cases of emergency service providers (police, doctors, EMTs, etc) who have required service weekend work schedules.  There's a reason alternating weekends are assigned almost universally by the courts.  First, each parent ought to have full weekends for various weekends activities, trips, visits with family and family events.  Second, each parent ought to have some weekends off from parenting.  On the other hand, us reasonable parents will accept more parenting time if the other parent gives it up.

[livednlearned]

Now after talking with lawyers, they say I should have told him to leave, instead of leaving myself.  This is so confusing to me, I didn't feel safe or comfortable being there, but somehow it would have looked better if I would have stayed?  

Will the judge not understand that I wanted us to be able to be safe from his harassment and that I am trying to build a new life out from under him and his abuse?

Hi jbkt16, don't worry too much about this. My L told me the same thing, and like you, I left the marital home with my son. It happens a lot. The reason lawyers like you to stay in the home is that they aren't the ones who have to live there   and they think if you stay, you'll be more likely to get the house in the divorce. My L did tell me if I felt worried about my safety, to leave. In some states, there is something called "abandonment of the marital home." It just means your claim to the home is compromised. It's better that you left safely, in a way where your kids were not witness to a big blow-up that could've ended badly for you, or traumatized them emotionally. It ended up working to my advantage that I left with my son because it helped the judge see that there was cause for concern. It wasn't at the level of a domestic violence case, but it was in the ballpark. When third-party professionals got involved in my case (especially women), it became clear that my ex had an anger issue and that thread stayed throughout our custody battle, reinforcing my decision to leave.

Right now he is acting like "dad of the year" but he was never helpful with them in the past it was always me doing all the work.  All he ever did was play, when he felt like it, with them.

The standard every other weekend with him, is what I am shooting for, but he says he wants 50/50 with them.  Why is he saying this? He NEVER spent 50% of the time with them when we were under the same roof!   Also, his schedule is very demanding during majority of the year (he is a high school football and baseball coach), will the judge weight that heavily?  

There are a lot of really good dads on these boards who are amazing fathers to their kids. BPD dads want to be seen this way, and can't follow through. Instead, they tend to want control over the non-BPD spouse, and they will try to use the kids to maintain that control. A lot of BPD dads fight for custody and then have one excuse after another for why they can't take the kids. It's always better to get more custodial time in a court order, and you should definitely factor in his busy schedule and your more amenable schedule for child care, etc so that you get better than 60/40. But if for some strange reason he gets 50/50, you will likely end up with more custodial time anyway. Parenting is stressful and people with BPD don't handle stress well. The real goal seems to be about saving face and/or maintaining control.



Also, do everything you can to try and get counseling for your boys. They are going to need someone other than you to try and make sense of their dad. He's likely to engage in parental alienation and try to poison them against you. This is another reason why more time with you is better for them. When he starts the parental alienation (if he hasn't already), they need a neutral third-party professional to try and help them make sense of something very unnatural, which is to reject a parent, especially one who loves them, like you. I highly recommend reading the books mentioned in Lesson 5 on the Coparenting board -- I am certain that I offset the parental alienation to a great degree because I used tactics recommended by both Bill Eddy (Don't Alienate the Kids) and Richard Warshak (Divorce Poison).

[jbkt16]

Thanks everyone!  Y'all are so dead on about everything you are saying.  He does love the boys, but when things get stressful, he doesn't hold up well.  I haven't been there watching him with the boys so I am only witnessing the public front he is putting up.  Who knows how he is really handling all the time with the boys that he isn't used to. 

I only agreed to the time arrangment to "keep the peace"  I was trying to do what would ultimately put our family in a better position, by getting out. I thought that by sharing time I was being "fair" and that the courts would see the truth of the situation.  I now realize that some of this thinking was wrong on my part.  I am also worried that the more custody he gets the more they will just be dumped at their grandparents house when he has work or something, when I could just be with them.

One thing I failed to mention, we were renting the home we were living in together, did not own it, and neither one of us can afford to live there without the help of the other's salary.  I don't want back in that house. I want to get a new job at the end of the year and buy a reasonable house (less than the rental) near wherever my job is.  I would only be moving about 20 minutes or so from the town my ex will be living in.  So it is not like I am trying to run off with the kids. 

The judge won't understand that the "living with parents" was only temporary to get things figured out (where I would get a job, how much money I would be making, etc)?  And that there is no reason for me to pretend to be able to afford staying in the rental when I know I can't?  He claims that he is staying in the rental, but he canNOT afford it.  He likely doesn't even realize just how much he can't afford to live there since he never wants anything to do with helping out with the finances.  Unless he plans on borrowing from his parents or something.

So they won't allot child support based on the expenses that I will have?  Would I be better off trying to rent an apartment or something even though I know I can't afford it yet?  I was trying to be smart and pay off a few bills while living with them and/or save some money towards buying a house.  Will this backfire?  Thanks for all the advice.

Oh, and we were not paying for 3 places, we can barely afford 1!  He was staying at his families when I was at the house, and I was at mine when he was at the house.  I can't imagine him being able to stay there long term.  Could I try to prove that he can't afford to live there and that we should both move out?  Thanks again!

I think he is using the kids against me because he knows that is the one way he can truly still get to me. In fact, his threats of getting too much time with the kids are part of why I didn't divorce him 2 years ago when I should have.

[jbkt16]

Ok, so I have a really specific question that I am wondering about.  I live in Texas which is a joint property state (not sure what it is actually called, but basically they share all assets 50/50 for the most part).  My lawyer filed last Friday, but he has not been served yet.  Since I am living with my family right now, I will have some extra money this month.  I would like to go ahead and start a savings for lawyers fees and the down-payment of a new home.  Since the divorce has already been files, if I were to save money off this upcoming check (the 15th) would those still be considered like "joint funds"?  I don't want to try to save money and be smart with money that will end up being given to him later.  If that is the case I would rather use it to start buying things that we may need down the road.  Thanks for any input!

[livednlearned]

I don't know how things work there, only in my state and my county in particular.

Things get very loose with money during the settlement phase. Lawyers toss around money like $10K here and there is nothing. I filled out some form my L gave me and had to ballpark the cost of marital items based on what I could get for them on Craigslist. I filled in amounts from checking/savings and retirement accounts. None of this was verified, it was all treated as reasonable.

I think a lot of judges and lawyers just want the two of you to be reasonable and accept that there will be some loss on both sides, which is where our cases can deviate because of BPD. You'll probably be asked to estimate your cost of living because it is reasonable that you would only stay with your parents temporarily until you're out on your own. You may need to run some reasonable scenarios (if you get a job in the other town, estimated salary and estimated living expenses in a rental that is comparable to where you lived, adjusted for your income).

One thing I learned the hard way: try to find a place that's safe and good for the kids, but not necessarily dependent on child support. My ex made me sweat it out a few times and I learned to treat child support like a bonus so that I wasn't panicking when his check came late. There are usually ways to garnish his wages, but you have to go through a process that can take a while, sometimes months.

Also, in my state, once the divorce was filed, our finances were separate. So, anything I charged to a credit card was mine. I didn't manage to save anything, but if I did, I would've been expected to disclose that in the settlement, though it would've been treated as rent or whatnot. Since you are working with very small savings and looking for both a job and place to live, the judge might zoom out to the overall picture and not get too focused on the details of your finances. Of course, it's best to check with your L. My experience is that Ls and judges deal with big-picture finances and income histories plus income potential more than nickel and diming the process.

If you're trying to save money and don't want to ask your L, another option is to contact the court of clerk. The nuts and bolts questions are ones they can answer. They just can't give legal advice.

[JaneStorm]

Ok, so I have a really specific question that I am wondering about.  I live in Texas which is a joint property state (not sure what it is actually called, but basically they share all assets 50/50 for the most part).  My lawyer filed last Friday, but he has not been served yet.  Since I am living with my family right now, I will have some extra money this month.  I would like to go ahead and start a savings for lawyers fees and the down-payment of a new home.  Since the divorce has already been files, if I were to save money off this upcoming check (the 15th) would those still be considered like "joint funds"?  I don't want to try to save money and be smart with money that will end up being given to him later.  If that is the case I would rather use it to start buying things that we may need down the road.  Thanks for any input!

I have been burned twice in Community Property States. If he is wracking up debt as we speak and he disappears, it's yours. If you are saving and it comes out in the financial discovery, it can be half or more his. Keep bank balances LOW, get trusted family members to hide excess money, and check your credit report to see what you are on the hook for.

[jbkt16]

Thanks everyone.  I thought I had heard that everything is frozen once the divorce is filed, but from what y'all are saying it sounds like maybe not. 

We don't have anything big to speak of.  I already have a job (teacher) but will be looking for a new one, because I do not want to continue to live in his "home town" with his parents, his friends, and of course him.  We have no savings, no house to sell (we rent a house), but we do have a lot of debt.  I am a very reasonable person and would be glad to "work things out" in a reasonable manner, but he won't, he won't even try. He has not been served the papers yet, but yesterday he drilled me about "if I wanted a divorce or not", eventually I just said yes.  He made it really clear at that point, that the judge would be making all the decisions and that he would not even try to work anything out.  Will the judge look down upon that?  I clearly stated (via text) that I would be willing to work things out, and he clearly stated he wouldn't even try.

Honestly my biggest concern is my precious time with the boys and their well-being.  I am only thinking money now, because I want to put myself in a place as soon as possible to buy a home for the boys to feel like they have a place of their own.

The judge won't really have much of anything to divide (other than debt), but he is insisting that instead of moving in with his parents (for the time-being), that he is going to stay in the rental house.  There is NO way that he can afford to stay there, the numbers do not add up.  He will either have to pay rent and choose to not pay his credit cards, etc, or he will have to move out.  But since he is staying there for the time being, there is no way he will end up saving any money.  Since I don't have the rent, I should be able to save a little (not a lot, but at this point any little bit would help), and don't think that he should get money that I am trying to be smart about, he has never saved a dime in his life and is very irresponsible with money.

During the separation, I had been paying all the bills out of our joint account, then we withdrew the rest and split it down the middle, so it has all been fair. 

One more question, before the separation he decided that he wanted to "save us money" and change our cell service from Verizon to Sprint.  I told him that I didn't think the service was going to be as good and I didn't really want to switch.  He insisted and I eventually said, "if you will handle the switch and I don't have to do any of the phone calls or anything, and you don't cost us any money over it, then I am fine with it".  Sprint was supposed to be paying the contract termination fee, my husband had to fill out some forms and then was supposed to receive a visa card in the mail.  Apparently he never did what he was supposed to or used the card on something else.  Because I just recently got a collections bill from Verizon for almost $600!  Now I want to switch back to verizon and open a new account (separate from them) but they say this bill needs to be paid first.  Is there anyway I can hold him accountable for this?  I just received a $2000 check from the sale of our home (in the town we lived in previously) Obviously we didn't make much off of the sale and we both agreed to just split the money.  I am wondering if I can make him pay the $600 bill out of his share of this money?  He rarely ever takes care of any of the financial things, and every single time he does he cost us money.  Now that he is angry that I want a divorce, I don't think he has any intentions of contacting Sprint and trying to clear this up.  Unfortunately the huge verizon bill is in my name. 

He also recently was handling the house sale.  He continued to reassure me that things were going good and that everything was under control.  I contacted the realtor and she said everything had been a nightmare and that she should have been dealing with me all along.  He had missed a deadline and it costed us $500 in interest and a $39 late payment fee on the mortgage.  My credit isn't great because of his financial irresponsibility and the fact that I would allow him to bully me into agreeing to financial decisions.  Now that I finally get a say in my own finances I want to be smart, and clean up any mess left behind!  Thanks again for the listening ear and the advice!

[JaneStorm]

Thanks everyone.  I thought I had heard that everything is frozen once the divorce is filed, but from what y'all are saying it sounds like maybe not. 

We don't have anything big to speak of.  I already have a job (teacher) but will be looking for a new one, because I do not want to continue to live in his "home town" with his parents, his friends, and of course him.  We have no savings, no house to sell (we rent a house), but we do have a lot of debt.  I am a very reasonable person and would be glad to "work things out" in a reasonable manner, but he won't, he won't even try. He has not been served the papers yet, but yesterday he drilled me about "if I wanted a divorce or not", eventually I just said yes.  He made it really clear at that point, that the judge would be making all the decisions and that he would not even try to work anything out.  Will the judge look down upon that?  I clearly stated (via text) that I would be willing to work things out, and he clearly stated he wouldn't even try.

Honestly my biggest concern is my precious time with the boys and their well-being.  I am only thinking money now, because I want to put myself in a place as soon as possible to buy a home for the boys to feel like they have a place of their own.

The judge won't really have much of anything to divide (other than debt), but he is insisting that instead of moving in with his parents (for the time-being), that he is going to stay in the rental house.  There is NO way that he can afford to stay there, the numbers do not add up.  He will either have to pay rent and choose to not pay his credit cards, etc, or he will have to move out.  But since he is staying there for the time being, there is no way he will end up saving any money.  Since I don't have the rent, I should be able to save a little (not a lot, but at this point any little bit would help), and don't think that he should get money that I am trying to be smart about, he has never saved a dime in his life and is very irresponsible with money.

During the separation, I had been paying all the bills out of our joint account, then we withdrew the rest and split it down the middle, so it has all been fair. 

One more question, before the separation he decided that he wanted to "save us money" and change our cell service from Verizon to Sprint.  I told him that I didn't think the service was going to be as good and I didn't really want to switch.  He insisted and I eventually said, "if you will handle the switch and I don't have to do any of the phone calls or anything, and you don't cost us any money over it, then I am fine with it".  Sprint was supposed to be paying the contract termination fee, my husband had to fill out some forms and then was supposed to receive a visa card in the mail.  Apparently he never did what he was supposed to or used the card on something else.  Because I just recently got a collections bill from Verizon for almost $600!  Now I want to switch back to verizon and open a new account (separate from them) but they say this bill needs to be paid first.  Is there anyway I can hold him accountable for this?  I just received a $2000 check from the sale of our home (in the town we lived in previously) Obviously we didn't make much off of the sale and we both agreed to just split the money.  I am wondering if I can make him pay the $600 bill out of his share of this money?  He rarely ever takes care of any of the financial things, and every single time he does he cost us money.  Now that he is angry that I want a divorce, I don't think he has any intentions of contacting Sprint and trying to clear this up.  Unfortunately the huge verizon bill is in my name. 

He also recently was handling the house sale.  He continued to reassure me that things were going good and that everything was under control.  I contacted the realtor and she said everything had been a nightmare and that she should have been dealing with me all along.  He had missed a deadline and it costed us $500 in interest and a $39 late payment fee on the mortgage.  My credit isn't great because of his financial irresponsibility and the fact that I would allow him to bully me into agreeing to financial decisions.  Now that I finally get a say in my own finances I want to be smart, and clean up any mess left behind!  Thanks again for the listening ear and the advice!

Be so careful; the debt ruined me. I had to file BK because he split, after he ran up more debt in HIS name, without my knowing, and not paying on the bills I entrusted to him with half of my money. Whatever the judge rules (50/50%), the collectors DO NOT CARE. They are lions catching the slowest (and most responsible) gazelle on the Serengeti. That will be you, since you have a good career and children. If you have EAP through your employer, I advise getting consultation on how to protect yourself now and in the future.

[jbkt16]

Ok, so I have a really specific question that I am wondering about.  I live in Texas which is a joint property state (not sure what it is actually called, but basically they share all assets 50/50 for the most part).  My lawyer filed last Friday, but he has not been served yet.  Since I am living with my family right now, I will have some extra money this month.  I would like to go ahead and start a savings for lawyers fees and the down-payment of a new home.  Since the divorce has already been files, if I were to save money off this upcoming check (the 15th) would those still be considered like "joint funds"?  I don't want to try to save money and be smart with money that will end up being given to him later.  If that is the case I would rather use it to start buying things that we may need down the road.  Thanks for any input!

I have been burned twice in Community Property States. If he is wracking up debt as we speak and he disappears, it's yours. If you are saving and it comes out in the financial discovery, it can be half or more his. Keep bank balances LOW, get trusted family members to hide excess money, and check your credit report to see what you are on the hook for.

What exactly do you mean by "if he disappears"?  He likely is racking up debt, although I don't think he could get qualified for much at this point.  Are credit is mediocre and his debt ratio is pretty high.  But I don't put anything at all past him at this point.

[JaneStorm]

Ok, so I have a really specific question that I am wondering about.  I live in Texas which is a joint property state (not sure what it is actually called, but basically they share all assets 50/50 for the most part).  My lawyer filed last Friday, but he has not been served yet.  Since I am living with my family right now, I will have some extra money this month.  I would like to go ahead and start a savings for lawyers fees and the down-payment of a new home.  Since the divorce has already been files, if I were to save money off this upcoming check (the 15th) would those still be considered like "joint funds"?  I don't want to try to save money and be smart with money that will end up being given to him later.  If that is the case I would rather use it to start buying things that we may need down the road.  Thanks for any input!

I have been burned twice in Community Property States. If he is wracking up debt as we speak and he disappears, it's yours. If you are saving and it comes out in the financial discovery, it can be half or more his. Keep bank balances LOW, get trusted family members to hide excess money, and check your credit report to see what you are on the hook for.

What exactly do you mean by "if he disappears"?  He likely is racking up debt, although I don't think he could get qualified for much at this point.  Are credit is mediocre and his debt ratio is pretty high.  But I don't put anything at all past him at this point.

I mean, if he is not a professional like you are, he can move to another state and work for cash under the table while he burns you with debt and lack of child support (happened to me ~20 years ago). OR, he could file BK and leave you with all of the debt anyway.

[jbkt16]

Thanks everyone.  I thought I had heard that everything is frozen once the divorce is filed, but from what y'all are saying it sounds like maybe not. 

We don't have anything big to speak of.  I already have a job (teacher) but will be looking for a new one, because I do not want to continue to live in his "home town" with his parents, his friends, and of course him.  We have no savings, no house to sell (we rent a house), but we do have a lot of debt.  I am a very reasonable person and would be glad to "work things out" in a reasonable manner, but he won't, he won't even try. He has not been served the papers yet, but yesterday he drilled me about "if I wanted a divorce or not", eventually I just said yes.  He made it really clear at that point, that the judge would be making all the decisions and that he would not even try to work anything out.  Will the judge look down upon that?  I clearly stated (via text) that I would be willing to work things out, and he clearly stated he wouldn't even try.

Honestly my biggest concern is my precious time with the boys and their well-being.  I am only thinking money now, because I want to put myself in a place as soon as possible to buy a home for the boys to feel like they have a place of their own.

The judge won't really have much of anything to divide (other than debt), but he is insisting that instead of moving in with his parents (for the time-being), that he is going to stay in the rental house.  There is NO way that he can afford to stay there, the numbers do not add up.  He will either have to pay rent and choose to not pay his credit cards, etc, or he will have to move out.  But since he is staying there for the time being, there is no way he will end up saving any money.  Since I don't have the rent, I should be able to save a little (not a lot, but at this point any little bit would help), and don't think that he should get money that I am trying to be smart about, he has never saved a dime in his life and is very irresponsible with money.

During the separation, I had been paying all the bills out of our joint account, then we withdrew the rest and split it down the middle, so it has all been fair. 

One more question, before the separation he decided that he wanted to "save us money" and change our cell service from Verizon to Sprint.  I told him that I didn't think the service was going to be as good and I didn't really want to switch.  He insisted and I eventually said, "if you will handle the switch and I don't have to do any of the phone calls or anything, and you don't cost us any money over it, then I am fine with it".  Sprint was supposed to be paying the contract termination fee, my husband had to fill out some forms and then was supposed to receive a visa card in the mail.  Apparently he never did what he was supposed to or used the card on something else.  Because I just recently got a collections bill from Verizon for almost $600!  Now I want to switch back to verizon and open a new account (separate from them) but they say this bill needs to be paid first.  Is there anyway I can hold him accountable for this?  I just received a $2000 check from the sale of our home (in the town we lived in previously) Obviously we didn't make much off of the sale and we both agreed to just split the money.  I am wondering if I can make him pay the $600 bill out of his share of this money?  He rarely ever takes care of any of the financial things, and every single time he does he cost us money.  Now that he is angry that I want a divorce, I don't think he has any intentions of contacting Sprint and trying to clear this up.  Unfortunately the huge verizon bill is in my name. 

He also recently was handling the house sale.  He continued to reassure me that things were going good and that everything was under control.  I contacted the realtor and she said everything had been a nightmare and that she should have been dealing with me all along.  He had missed a deadline and it costed us $500 in interest and a $39 late payment fee on the mortgage.  My credit isn't great because of his financial irresponsibility and the fact that I would allow him to bully me into agreeing to financial decisions.  Now that I finally get a say in my own finances I want to be smart, and clean up any mess left behind!  Thanks again for the listening ear and the advice!

Be so careful; the debt ruined me. I had to file BK because he split, after he ran up more debt in HIS name, without my knowing, and not paying on the bills I entrusted to him with half of my money. Whatever the judge rules (50/50%), the collectors DO NOT CARE. They are lions catching the slowest (and most responsible) gazelle on the Serengeti. That will be you, since you have a good career and children. If you have EAP through your employer, I advise getting consultation on how to protect yourself now and in the future.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience.  I feel like he could and would screw me over if he can find a way.  The good thing is I know every detail about the finances and he never cared to know.  Just wanted input on when he wanted to buy things!  Now that the divorce is filed, would they still be able to come after me (debt collectors)?  I understand that they can come after me for debt in his name while we were married.  The part that seems unsure for me is the time period in between filing the divorce and it being finalized?

[jbkt16]

Thanks everyone.  I thought I had heard that everything is frozen once the divorce is filed, but from what y'all are saying it sounds like maybe not. 

We don't have anything big to speak of.  I already have a job (teacher) but will be looking for a new one, because I do not want to continue to live in his "home town" with his parents, his friends, and of course him.  We have no savings, no house to sell (we rent a house), but we do have a lot of debt.  I am a very reasonable person and would be glad to "work things out" in a reasonable manner, but he won't, he won't even try. He has not been served the papers yet, but yesterday he drilled me about "if I wanted a divorce or not", eventually I just said yes.  He made it really clear at that point, that the judge would be making all the decisions and that he would not even try to work anything out.  Will the judge look down upon that?  I clearly stated (via text) that I would be willing to work things out, and he clearly stated he wouldn't even try.

Honestly my biggest concern is my precious time with the boys and their well-being.  I am only thinking money now, because I want to put myself in a place as soon as possible to buy a home for the boys to feel like they have a place of their own.

The judge won't really have much of anything to divide (other than debt), but he is insisting that instead of moving in with his parents (for the time-being), that he is going to stay in the rental house.  There is NO way that he can afford to stay there, the numbers do not add up.  He will either have to pay rent and choose to not pay his credit cards, etc, or he will have to move out.  But since he is staying there for the time being, there is no way he will end up saving any money.  Since I don't have the rent, I should be able to save a little (not a lot, but at this point any little bit would help), and don't think that he should get money that I am trying to be smart about, he has never saved a dime in his life and is very irresponsible with money.

During the separation, I had been paying all the bills out of our joint account, then we withdrew the rest and split it down the middle, so it has all been fair. 

One more question, before the separation he decided that he wanted to "save us money" and change our cell service from Verizon to Sprint.  I told him that I didn't think the service was going to be as good and I didn't really want to switch.  He insisted and I eventually said, "if you will handle the switch and I don't have to do any of the phone calls or anything, and you don't cost us any money over it, then I am fine with it".  Sprint was supposed to be paying the contract termination fee, my husband had to fill out some forms and then was supposed to receive a visa card in the mail.  Apparently he never did what he was supposed to or used the card on something else.  Because I just recently got a collections bill from Verizon for almost $600!  Now I want to switch back to verizon and open a new account (separate from them) but they say this bill needs to be paid first.  Is there anyway I can hold him accountable for this?  I just received a $2000 check from the sale of our home (in the town we lived in previously) Obviously we didn't make much off of the sale and we both agreed to just split the money.  I am wondering if I can make him pay the $600 bill out of his share of this money?  He rarely ever takes care of any of the financial things, and every single time he does he cost us money.  Now that he is angry that I want a divorce, I don't think he has any intentions of contacting Sprint and trying to clear this up.  Unfortunately the huge verizon bill is in my name. 

He also recently was handling the house sale.  He continued to reassure me that things were going good and that everything was under control.  I contacted the realtor and she said everything had been a nightmare and that she should have been dealing with me all along.  He had missed a deadline and it costed us $500 in interest and a $39 late payment fee on the mortgage.  My credit isn't great because of his financial irresponsibility and the fact that I would allow him to bully me into agreeing to financial decisions.  Now that I finally get a say in my own finances I want to be smart, and clean up any mess left behind!  Thanks again for the listening ear and the advice!

Be so careful; the debt ruined me. I had to file BK because he split, after he ran up more debt in HIS name, without my knowing, and not paying on the bills I entrusted to him with half of my money. Whatever the judge rules (50/50%), the collectors DO NOT CARE. They are lions catching the slowest (and most responsible) gazelle on the Serengeti. That will be you, since you have a good career and children. If you have EAP through your employer, I advise getting consultation on how to protect yourself now and in the future.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience.  I feel like he could and would screw me over if he can find a way.  The good thing is I know every detail about the finances and he never cared to know.  Just wanted input on when he wanted to buy things!  Now that the divorce is filed, would they still be able to come after me (debt collectors)?  I understand that they can come after me for debt in his name while we were married.  The part that seems unsure for me is the time period in between filing the divorce and it being finalized?

He is a teacher / coach, so we basically are in a similar situation financially.  He makes about $10,000 more than me because of the coaching and more years of experience.  His job "defines him" it is really all he truly cares about, so I can't see him doing anything like what you described, but can see him racking up debt.

[JaneStorm]

Thanks everyone.  I thought I had heard that everything is frozen once the divorce is filed, but from what y'all are saying it sounds like maybe not. 

We don't have anything big to speak of.  I already have a job (teacher) but will be looking for a new one, because I do not want to continue to live in his "home town" with his parents, his friends, and of course him.  We have no savings, no house to sell (we rent a house), but we do have a lot of debt.  I am a very reasonable person and would be glad to "work things out" in a reasonable manner, but he won't, he won't even try. He has not been served the papers yet, but yesterday he drilled me about "if I wanted a divorce or not", eventually I just said yes.  He made it really clear at that point, that the judge would be making all the decisions and that he would not even try to work anything out.  Will the judge look down upon that?  I clearly stated (via text) that I would be willing to work things out, and he clearly stated he wouldn't even try.

Honestly my biggest concern is my precious time with the boys and their well-being.  I am only thinking money now, because I want to put myself in a place as soon as possible to buy a home for the boys to feel like they have a place of their own.

The judge won't really have much of anything to divide (other than debt), but he is insisting that instead of moving in with his parents (for the time-being), that he is going to stay in the rental house.  There is NO way that he can afford to stay there, the numbers do not add up.  He will either have to pay rent and choose to not pay his credit cards, etc, or he will have to move out.  But since he is staying there for the time being, there is no way he will end up saving any money.  Since I don't have the rent, I should be able to save a little (not a lot, but at this point any little bit would help), and don't think that he should get money that I am trying to be smart about, he has never saved a dime in his life and is very irresponsible with money.

During the separation, I had been paying all the bills out of our joint account, then we withdrew the rest and split it down the middle, so it has all been fair. 

One more question, before the separation he decided that he wanted to "save us money" and change our cell service from Verizon to Sprint.  I told him that I didn't think the service was going to be as good and I didn't really want to switch.  He insisted and I eventually said, "if you will handle the switch and I don't have to do any of the phone calls or anything, and you don't cost us any money over it, then I am fine with it".  Sprint was supposed to be paying the contract termination fee, my husband had to fill out some forms and then was supposed to receive a visa card in the mail.  Apparently he never did what he was supposed to or used the card on something else.  Because I just recently got a collections bill from Verizon for almost $600!  Now I want to switch back to verizon and open a new account (separate from them) but they say this bill needs to be paid first.  Is there anyway I can hold him accountable for this?  I just received a $2000 check from the sale of our home (in the town we lived in previously) Obviously we didn't make much off of the sale and we both agreed to just split the money.  I am wondering if I can make him pay the $600 bill out of his share of this money?  He rarely ever takes care of any of the financial things, and every single time he does he cost us money.  Now that he is angry that I want a divorce, I don't think he has any intentions of contacting Sprint and trying to clear this up.  Unfortunately the huge verizon bill is in my name. 

He also recently was handling the house sale.  He continued to reassure me that things were going good and that everything was under control.  I contacted the realtor and she said everything had been a nightmare and that she should have been dealing with me all along.  He had missed a deadline and it costed us $500 in interest and a $39 late payment fee on the mortgage.  My credit isn't great because of his financial irresponsibility and the fact that I would allow him to bully me into agreeing to financial decisions.  Now that I finally get a say in my own finances I want to be smart, and clean up any mess left behind!  Thanks again for the listening ear and the advice!

Be so careful; the debt ruined me. I had to file BK because he split, after he ran up more debt in HIS name, without my knowing, and not paying on the bills I entrusted to him with half of my money. Whatever the judge rules (50/50%), the collectors DO NOT CARE. They are lions catching the slowest (and most responsible) gazelle on the Serengeti. That will be you, since you have a good career and children. If you have EAP through your employer, I advise getting consultation on how to protect yourself now and in the future.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience.  I feel like he could and would screw me over if he can find a way.  The good thing is I know every detail about the finances and he never cared to know.  Just wanted input on when he wanted to buy things!  Now that the divorce is filed, would they still be able to come after me (debt collectors)?  I understand that they can come after me for debt in his name while we were married.  The part that seems unsure for me is the time period in between filing the divorce and it being finalized?

He is a teacher / coach, so we basically are in a similar situation financially.  He makes about $10,000 more than me because of the coaching and more years of experience.  His job "defines him" it is really all he truly cares about, so I can't see him doing anything like what you described, but can see him racking up debt.

Maybe check with your specific state's rules on that. There are nuances that I would not know about.

[jbkt16]

One more thing, I already moved my automatic deposit over, and told him which bills I was going to pay. I split them as equal as I possibly could and at least he can't get a hold of my paycheck.  The bills that I told him I "expected him to pay" were all in his own name.  I know it is not a legal agreement or anything, but I figured it would at least show the court I was trying to be "fair", and I will be continuing to keep up with everything that is in my name.

[livednlearned]

You don't want to get burned -- these are important questions for your lawyer. Maybe have a 15 minute phone call with a list of questions you send in advance?

A lot of this is going to come down to technicalities in your state's laws. What we can help with is to let you know how BPD behaviors impact the process overall.

Your lawyer may advise you to use $600 out of the $2000K from the sale of your home to pay down that debt. Always pay down the debt that will impact you the most. You may have to cut your losses and treat the $600 as a shared debt (legally). That means the two of you each have $700 left, and you may be ordered to pay him that amount later after the distribution. That doesn't necessarily mean you pay him, because he may have other bills and debts and you end up using his money to pay his debts (the ones that affect you).

I found that some of the companies were very helpful about answering these questions too. I hit the jackpot with Verizon who actually walked me through a way to make sure my ex was removed from my plan and held accountable for his own bills.

Joint credit cards -- you may want to call and see if you can prevent future increases on those cards. Freeze them, or whatnot. He may have to open a new card, and then he will be legally responsible for those cards.

In terms of the rental, will he be breaking a lease if he moves out? You may want to call the leasing company and find out what you can do. For example, have you removed from the lease.

In my state, there are motions to compel action -- even if your ex does not follow through on things, the legal documents can show a judge that you did everything legal in your power to separate your ex's irresponsible spending habits from yours.

Check with the clerk of court to find out what is legally his/yours after you file until the time your divorce is final. That may help alleviate some of the ambiguity.

[ForeverDad]

Do a credit check on the children's SSNs, not just yours.  Sadly, some parents have fraudulently used the children's SSNs when their own credit ran out.

www.annualcreditreport.com allows one free annual request for each of 3 agencies, you can space them out on a rotation basis, a different agency every 4 months.

[jbkt16]

You don't want to get burned -- these are important questions for your lawyer. Maybe have a 15 minute phone call with a list of questions you send in advance?

A lot of this is going to come down to technicalities in your state's laws. What we can help with is to let you know how BPD behaviors impact the process overall.

Your lawyer may advise you to use $600 out of the $2000K from the sale of your home to pay down that debt. Always pay down the debt that will impact you the most. You may have to cut your losses and treat the $600 as a shared debt (legally). That means the two of you each have $700 left, and you may be ordered to pay him that amount later after the distribution. That doesn't necessarily mean you pay him, because he may have other bills and debts and you end up using his money to pay his debts (the ones that affect you).

I found that some of the companies were very helpful about answering these questions too. I hit the jackpot with Verizon who actually walked me through a way to make sure my ex was removed from my plan and held accountable for his own bills.

Joint credit cards -- you may want to call and see if you can prevent future increases on those cards. Freeze them, or whatnot. He may have to open a new card, and then he will be legally responsible for those cards.

In terms of the rental, will he be breaking a lease if he moves out? You may want to call the leasing company and find out what you can do. For example, have you removed from the lease.

In my state, there are motions to compel action -- even if your ex does not follow through on things, the legal documents can show a judge that you did everything legal in your power to separate your ex's irresponsible spending habits from yours.

Check with the clerk of court to find out what is legally his/yours after you file until the time your divorce is final. That may help alleviate some of the ambiguity.

Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply.  I will be asking my lawyer some of these questions, I just thought some of you may have personal experience with some of it.  I also figure the more I can learn on my own, the more educated I am, the better questions I will be able to ask my lawyer . 

I believe there are only a couple joint credit cards.  One of them is in my name and one is in his.  Both of our cars are joint, and all the utilities (where he is living) are in MY name.  I figure he will likely pay those because he doesn't want electricity getting cut off, etc. but he could make late payments.  I told him that he needed to get them switched into his name.

Is it very unlikely for BPDers to negotiate and avoid going to trial?  He says he won't figure anything out with me, and insist we go to trial, but I am just praying that doesn't happen.  Any tips for trying to get him to work things out? 

I am being very reasonable and would be willing to negotiate less child support, etc  I just want to be the primary caretaker and the decision maker for the kids.

One minute he is saying horrible things to me (at the bus-stop - the only time I still see him), then few hours later, he is texting saying he would like to work things out!  I am not falling for any of it anymore, and assuming that this is typical?

[ForeverDad]

You don't want to get burned -- these are important questions for your lawyer. Maybe have a 15 minute phone call with a list of questions you send in advance?

A lot of this is going to come down to technicalities in your state's laws. What we can help with is to let you know how BPD behaviors impact the process overall.

I found that some of the companies were very helpful about answering these questions too. I hit the jackpot with Verizon who actually walked me through a way to make sure my ex was removed from my plan and held accountable for his own bills.

Joint credit cards -- you may want to call and see if you can prevent future increases on those cards. Freeze them, or whatnot. He may have to open a new card, and then he will be legally responsible for those cards.

Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply.  I will be asking my lawyer some of these questions, I just thought some of you may have personal experience with some of it.  I also figure the more I can learn on my own, the more educated I am, the better questions I will be able to ask my lawyer .

Yes, we've been there, done that.  It is very smart to learn from our collective wisdom, we've faced dilemmas that even some lawyers haven't faced or handled well previously.  You lawyer should know the local court and laws and how they're applied there.  And what may fall through the cracks with your lawyer's strategies can probably be caught here.

I believe there are only a couple joint credit cards.  One of them is in my name and one is in his.  Both of our cars are joint, and all the utilities (where he is living) are in MY name.  I figure he will likely pay those because he doesn't want electricity getting cut off, etc. but he could make late payments.  I told him that he needed to get them switched into his name.

AS LnL mentioned with her phone accounts, the vendor may be willing to help set up the new utility account so it is a transition and not a closure.

As for credit cards, there is accountholder (single person or joint) and cardholder (the person with a card but not an accountholder).  In your case, is it one account with two cards?  Or multiple accounts?

The most critical factor is whether an account is (1) joint or (2) personal.  If joint then as LnL recommended, try your best to get the entire account suspended or frozen so it can't be misused.  If personal, then that person controls the account.  If he is a cardholder on your account, there is a risk his charges could become your debts if you're not careful in court but at least you can cancel his card to limit further damage going forward.  Similarly, if you are a cardholder on his account, he can cancel your card.

Is it very unlikely for BPDers to negotiate and avoid going to trial?  He says he won't figure anything out with me, and insist we go to trial, but I am just praying that doesn't happen.  Any tips for trying to get him to work things out?

I am being very reasonable and would be willing to negotiate less child support, etc  I just want to be the primary caretaker and the decision maker for the kids.

As strange as it sounds, most cases do end up with settlements, even ours.  But, and this is a big but, it is seldom early in the divorce process.  So be very careful not to 'Gift Away' too much Leverage early in the process.  A good negotiator realizes that the cards have to be kept close until the right time arrives.  My divorce took nearly 2 years, it was only when I arrived at court on Trial Day (in Month 21) that I was greeted with the news that she was ready to settle.  It took that long for her Entitlement and Delays to weaken.

If you walk into mediation, settlement talks or court ready to be reasonable while facing an stbEx who is refusing to really negotiate, then you risk getting your Leverage used up in Round 1.  Sadly, being nice and reasonable does work well.  Yes you need to present yourself as reasonable to the professionals, but also firm for you goals and with realistic strategies and solutions.  Do some research on Boundaries as described here.  You can't control his actions, behaviors and misbehaviors but you most certainly can and should establish and maintain Your Boundaries.

[jbkt16]

You don't want to get burned -- these are important questions for your lawyer. Maybe have a 15 minute phone call with a list of questions you send in advance?

A lot of this is going to come down to technicalities in your state's laws. What we can help with is to let you know how BPD behaviors impact the process overall.

I found that some of the companies were very helpful about answering these questions too. I hit the jackpot with Verizon who actually walked me through a way to make sure my ex was removed from my plan and held accountable for his own bills.

Joint credit cards -- you may want to call and see if you can prevent future increases on those cards. Freeze them, or whatnot. He may have to open a new card, and then he will be legally responsible for those cards.

Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply.  I will be asking my lawyer some of these questions, I just thought some of you may have personal experience with some of it.  I also figure the more I can learn on my own, the more educated I am, the better questions I will be able to ask my lawyer .

Yes, we've been there, done that.  It is very smart to learn from our collective wisdom, we've faced dilemmas that even some lawyers haven't faced or handled well previously.  You lawyer should know the local court and laws and how they're applied there.  And what may fall through the cracks with your lawyer's strategies can probably be caught here.

I believe there are only a couple joint credit cards.  One of them is in my name and one is in his.  Both of our cars are joint, and all the utilities (where he is living) are in MY name.  I figure he will likely pay those because he doesn't want electricity getting cut off, etc. but he could make late payments.  I told him that he needed to get them switched into his name.

AS LnL mentioned with her phone accounts, the vendor may be willing to help set up the new utility account so it is a transition and not a closure.

As for credit cards, there is accountholder (single person or joint) and cardholder (the person with a card but not an accountholder).  In your case, is it one account with two cards?  Or multiple accounts?

The most critical factor is whether an account is (1) joint or (2) personal.  If joint then as LnL recommended, try your best to get the entire account suspended or frozen so it can't be misused.  If personal, then that person controls the account.  If he is a cardholder on your account, there is a risk his charges could become your debts if you're not careful in court but at least you can cancel his card to limit further damage going forward.  Similarly, if you are a cardholder on his account, he can cancel your card.

Is it very unlikely for BPDers to negotiate and avoid going to trial?  He says he won't figure anything out with me, and insist we go to trial, but I am just praying that doesn't happen.  Any tips for trying to get him to work things out?

I am being very reasonable and would be willing to negotiate less child support, etc  I just want to be the primary caretaker and the decision maker for the kids.

As strange as it sounds, most cases do end up with settlements, even ours.  But, and this is a big but, it is seldom early in the divorce process.  So be very careful not to 'Gift Away' too much Leverage early in the process.  A good negotiator realizes that the cards have to be kept close until the right time arrives.  My divorce took nearly 2 years, it was only when I arrived at court on Trial Day (in Month 21) that I was greeted with the news that she was ready to settle.  It took that long for her Entitlement and Delays to weaken.

If you walk into mediation, settlement talks or court ready to be reasonable while facing an stbEx who is refusing to really negotiate, then you risk getting your Leverage used up in Round 1.  Sadly, being nice and reasonable does work well.  Yes you need to present yourself as reasonable to the professionals, but also firm for you goals and with realistic strategies and solutions.  Do some research on Boundaries as described here.  You can't control his actions, behaviors and misbehaviors but you most certainly can and should establish and maintain Your Boundaries.

Thanks again for the thoughtful reply.  I think we are both just "cardholders" on a couple of each-others credit cards.  Neither which have any availability at this point anyway, which I guess is a good thing.  We do have joint accounts on both of our cars.  But I assume he won't want to default on that since losing his car would hurt him!  The bad thing is that when they pull my credit it looks like I am having to pay for 2 car notes, even though he will be paying his and I will be paying mine.

This all seems to be such a game!  He says I "play games" but the truth is that is not me at all.  I would much rather us just be reasonable and figure things out in a civil way, but I know that isn't going to happen.  So should I tell my lawyer to start off by making somewhat of a crappy offer in negotiations?  And then hopefully gradually get it to something reasonable that will still be in the best interest of the boys.

The temporary orders trial is set for Jan 11th.  What should I expect there?  Is there time to describe how he has been abusive all these years?  I just have no clue what to expect.  They are going to try to serve him this evening, so we shall see what goes down after he knows that I am really done, for good.  He has been somewhat leaving me alone lately but I can't imagine it will stay that way once he gets served.

Gosh, 2 years to settle?  I know that it is common for it to take a while, my boys are just so little, I want to be able to re-build a "normal" life for them as soon as possible. 

[livednlearned]

I guess you could say negotiation has game elements. It's taking into account the predictable behaviors of the person you are negotiating with, and factoring that into your strategy. People with BPD have a very hard time losing control -- even over small things. So ideally you will start off with your ideal demands, knowing you have to go back and forth, in the hopes that he will get to a place where he wins. This will help him feel in control.

People with BPD also emotionally dysregulate very easily and it takes them a longer time to return to baseline. When someone is emotionally dysregulated, they have an almost impossible time using the part of their brain to problem solve and find solutions. So you will likely have to be the one managing this process. That's why you want to offer something that gives you room to negotiate with, since he will likely remain extreme in one way or another. Hopefully his lawyer will help him to some extent. Since there is not a huge pot of money, let's hope his lawyer leans on him to settle once a reasonable deal is on the table.

Does your temporary orders trial go before a judge? Or magistrate?

[jbkt16]

I guess you could say negotiation has game elements. It's taking into account the predictable behaviors of the person you are negotiating with, and factoring that into your strategy. People with BPD have a very hard time losing control -- even over small things. So ideally you will start off with your ideal demands, knowing you have to go back and forth, in the hopes that he will get to a place where he wins. This will help him feel in control.

People with BPD also emotionally dysregulate very easily and it takes them a longer time to return to baseline. When someone is emotionally dysregulated, they have an almost impossible time using the part of their brain to problem solve and find solutions. So you will likely have to be the one managing this process. That's why you want to offer something that gives you room to negotiate with, since he will likely remain extreme in one way or another. Hopefully his lawyer will help him to some extent. Since there is not a huge pot of money, let's hope his lawyer leans on him to settle once a reasonable deal is on the table.

Does your temporary orders trial go before a judge? Or magistrate?

Thank you, this makes perfect sense.  You are right that if he somehow feels like he is winning, he will be much more likely to settle on something.  The fact that there really isn't any money to speak of, makes me feel like I don't have any negotiating room.  The kids are the only important thing, and I will not negotiate much on that.  I am not going to let them grow up behaving the way he does, treating people the way he has... .

The temporary trial goes before a judge here.  What is a magistrate?  Sorry for the ignorance.

[livednlearned]

The temporary trial goes before a judge here.  What is a magistrate?  Sorry for the ignorance.

A magistrate is a type of judge -- usually someone with less authority or reach, more likely to hear minor offenses or pre-trial type of hearings.

So your process is different than where I live. In my state, temporary orders were supposed to be dealt with in mediation first. Some states have mandatory mediation, others have sort-of mandatory mediation, like mine. I don't know if one is any better than the other.

There is always room to negotiate, even if there isn't a lot of money. For example, getting the debts squared away will be an important issue. Getting your name off the lease, etc. Make sure you know who is responsible for what debt, and then any debt that you are both responsible for, negotiate (initially) that he pays for it, knowing that if you become responsible for it, that means it will get paid and not wreck your credit. Then, if you owe him any money, pay down the debt out of that money. I hope that makes sense. Don't be hard on yourself if all of this seems daunting and confusing -- it is daunting and confusing, and on top of it, you're going through a divorce. I found it hard to decide whether to brush my teeth first before showering or wait until after    The flooding stress and emotions will pass eventually. This initial stage is hard for everyone.

Be prepared for him to ask for 50/50 or more, even if you know it's absurd. Lawyers will encourage him to ask for this. And he will be told that it means no child support if it's 50/50. I think it's called Expanded Standard Possession Schedule where you are. Since you moved out of the marital home, be resolute about your concerns with safety. You'll be tempted to downplay the safety concerns if you're like a lot of us (we can get numb). I mentioned in my case that I had serious concerns about my son being witness to escalating verbal abuse and instability in the home. My ex tended to throw things and punch walls -- he never hit me. This is all still abuse. Some of us downplay abuse and categorize it -- hitting with hands is abuse, everything else is not, for example. In court, if you are scared for your safety, and don't want your kids to be exposed to abuse, that's important to say.