Messy negotiations to finish divorce on the 8th or 9th

[Grey Kitty]

Background: My wife still has some BPD traits, although she isn’t abusive, and is willing to discuss/negotiate with me. She does still feel clearly entitled. We are both responsible for putting this off two years since we separated. Our split has been relatively civil up until recently, when we got down to negotiating the last points and couldn’t agree on the financial settlement.

No kids, no pets, no house. Agreed to a 50/50 split, if we could agree on what got counted and what it was worth. We were living on a boat, but agreed that I would get custody of it. It hasn’t legally happened yet. I got one very old vehicle that was legally in my name but was community property. We also divided up all of our assets except one joint bank account which more than enough money to cover any equalization payment we were talking about. I intentionally left it there to act in good faith. We added everything up, made a spreadsheet with values, and calculated an equalization payment between us. She had me owing her ~$5k; I had her owing me ~$8k. NOTE: The money won't really make a big difference in my life (compared to the rest of what we are splitting up); it is more the principle of the thing than the impact of the money.

A couple weeks ago, we were negotiating the final financial settlement. She offered NO equalization payment. I told her that it wasn’t acceptable and offered her an equalization payment of $5k to me. We disagreed upon two things:

1. Value of our boat. It was torn apart and not ready to sail when we split, so I assigned it a (fairly generous, I thought) value considering its condition, $15k. She first tried to put a sunk cost value into it of ~$40k, then acknowledged that it should be valued at current market value, and put it down to what we paid for it, $28k. Despite ‘agreeing’ to current market value, she feels that since she put time and effort into it, (I put in more), she should be compensated for it. She also feels that she ‘lost’ the boat lifestyle and boat to live on, and should be compensated for that. We did agree (grudgingly) to a compromise value for the items she left on the boat. Legally it is joint tenants with right of survivorship, and the agreement that I will get it is verbal.

2. Status of her pension/retirement. We both had IRAs, and are each keeping our own. She has a small pension with an actuarial value of ~$13k calculated for it. All of this was put in while we were married (~26 years). Before we were married, she had earned some money in another 401(k), but a few years after we were married, she withdrew that money and put it into a downpayment on a jointly owned house, which has since been sold, and the full proceeds invested jointly for the last decade.

She feels that since she worked longer than I did, and since she put that money into the house, she is owed something for that. My take: Legally, taking separate property (her 401(k)) and putting it into a joint asset (our house) turns it into community property. She has no legal right to it. Besides, I’m not sure we have records from how much came out of the 401(k) over 20 years ago, and trying to account for what fraction of the house and various investments over that many years would be very difficult, to say the least.

Anyhow, her suggestion was that we not include her pension (valued at $13k) in the division.

Two additional details. Since we were living on a boat for 10 years, we had stored a bunch of stuff, at my parents house. While she’s remained civil with them, she doesn’t have unsupervised access. We’ve been meaning to divide that stuff up too, but well, we’ve both been delaying, and we both spend most of our year living in another state from my parents house, so it hasn’t been convenient. I’ll be back there tomorrow, and she will be visiting in a week to divide things up.

Loads of background, now the rubber hits the road, our latest interactions.

She’s been saying for a while that she needs to be divorced so she has tax income to her name, so she can get a lease or something. (We’re effectively retired on savings/investments) In our state of legal residence, a divorce has a 90 day waiting period, so if we finish this during our window of time to work together, we can be divorced in 2017 and file as single. She has a bit of incentive to get this done fast, although I imagine she would get most of those benefits married filing separately.

When we had our last phone call discussing it, she took half the money in the joint account and moved it into one in her name. I think she had planned it out ahead, and did it while we were talking. She also more or less told me that if I wanted the money back, I had to at least involve a judge, if not lawyers, as it was gone now.

My parents still are storing some personal papers and artwork of hers, along with the joint stuff we need to figure out who gets; I was angry enough to kinda threaten to hold her stuff hostage hostage. Probably not my best move.

Yep, I was pissed and felt violated. And I told her this. A few minutes later, I called her back and asked her to transfer $10k (to cover a $5k equalization payment to me) back to the account in order to escalate things. She didn’t. She started telling me more about why she was entitled to what she took, and I hung up on her. Normally I’m more civil than that, I’d at least say goodbye. I didn’t have that in me.

Next week, she is planning to be in the area and I’ll be seeing her face to face at my parents house unless I do something different. I’m trying to figure out what I want to tell her before I go, and what I want to do about it there. I did just this morning send her an email with some other unfinished business, and then this statement: “In other things, when we work on the division on Camano Island soon, I really want to finish as much of it as possible. Delays are not working well for me, and I don't believe you want them either. Lets get this done. “

I’m trying to make my plans for this meeting. My current feelings/goals/options are a bit all over the place, and I would like input/thoughts on them:

1. I’m pissed that she took the money like this. I’d really like to get it back. I’m also aware that using legal means to get it will end up costing me as much as I’ll get. My current feeling is a bit of a lingering burn, and a realization that she will probably get her way in this because she violated my trust this way.

1.5 (Ever so slightly) in her defense, she had the ability to take all the money in the joint account, and she only took what she felt entitled to, rather than all she could. I was 100% clear that I did NOT agree that she was entitled to all this money, so it is still bad, and I still don’t trust her, but she didn’t do the worst possible thing she could do.

2. We do still have a joint credit card, no balance. I could transfer an advance into the joint account (now empty), and then transfer the money to my account. I’m pretty sure she has just forgotten this, or doesn’t think I’ll do this. (Note: I do plan to shut down or cancel all joint credit ASAP; Unfortunately, I need to get a credit card just in my name first.) This would clearly be provocative, but it would put her in my position: The money is gone, and now she needs to go through a legal process to get it back. It could mess up both our credit ratings. (Before I DO this I’ll consult a lawyer)

3. My trust is greatly eroded. I want her to (willingly) sign over her interest in the boat to me at this meeting, so that isn’t lingering over me. I really don’t want to delay this part further.

4. Since we’ve split, my life has been way to stuck and I’ve been way too depressed. I need to move on. Perhaps finishing this will help. Perhaps not, but either way I do want it done.

5. I’m thinking that holding her papers and artwork hostage is evil and petty, and I really don’t want to be that person.

6. If I play hardball, I’ll be able to hurt her. I doubt I’ll help myself. Well, not much.

7. I used to want to be friends with her when all this settled out. I’m not longer sure I do. Part of me regrets that we still have so many common friends and volunteer for a common organization, so I cannot cut all ties as much as I want to.

8. I have a very strong urge to tell her that if she backs down, we can go back to being more friendly, and I will trust her again. The bad (abusive) part of our marriage ended several years before we split. Before I found the tools here, I would do things like this—vulnerably tell her that what she was doing hurt me, and ask her to stop. She would double down and be more hurtful. So I *KNOW* that nothing good will come of this urge.

9. I need to find a lawyer before I meet her, both to double-check what I’m considering with her.

Help, anybody got perspective? Sorry it snuck up on me and got soo long!

[GaGrl]

You thought you could do it amicably, just between the two of you.

Now you know (about 75%) that isn't going to happen.

Time for a conversation with a lawyer.

[flourdust]

Yes, you should absolutely get a lawyer, if for no other reason than it is easy to mess up division of assets like pension plans without one. A lawyer will also have more emotional distance from all of this back and forth and can focus on the bottom line and coming to an agreement.

You mention that you've done a property equalizer -- just putting the numbers in, regardless of who gets what or how you feel about it -- what is the difference in $ between her bottom line and yours? If we're talking a number below $10K, it is probably more cost effective to just agree and get it done - you will pay more than that in legal fees and sunk time to resolve it in court. I think you probably know that. It may sting your sense of justice, but it will be over and done with, and you can move on.

[BeagleGirl]

GK,
I'm sorry that things are getting all tangled up and causing so much stress so close to the finish line.

Two things that I took away from what you posted stand out:

The money won't make that much difference to you one way or the other.

You don't want to be evil, or even just petty - you want to remain true to yourself.

My take on it at a very high level - You get to be "right" or you get to be divorced.  You get to have what you feel you deserve or you get to be who you want to be.  I know that's a huge over simplification, but I think that it may not be too far off the mark if you distill away all the emotions.  It sucks (can't distill that away) but BPDw is giving you these options to choose from.

Now, for the finer details -

I do think a consultation with a lawyer will help.  From my recent experience, I think you are going to get the most out of understanding how the law sees the value of your boat and I think the valuation will probably be in your favor.  It's possible that your state may use Kelly Blue Book as the "official" valuation resource.  In that case, it's the trade in value, not the retail value that is used for cars and may be for boats as well.  The "justice" side of me felt like vehicles should be valued at what it would cost to replace them with a comparable make, model and condition (retail value), the fact that courts use the trade in value may be to your advantage.

Pensions definitely will require a lawyer's intervention even if it is just filing the release of rights to each other's pension (my pension coordinator has the form on the website, but it still has to be filed).  If you had to divide up pensions to reach an equitable agreement then you would learn the joys of a full QDRO assessment that I'm dealing with.  I'm one of the few people in my age range who has a pension, and it will be many years before I appreciate it after the additional paperwork entailed by splitting it.

One thing I would NOT do is play with the joint credit card.  In fact, I would cancel it TODAY both to remove the temptation for you and to eliminate the potential for her to use it.  That's one of those things that could end up compromising your true self in an attempt at "justice".  I do, however, think that securing the remainder of the "joint" funds by transferring them to an account she does not have access to is a reasonable response.

It sounds like you are not that far off of a settlement if you can reconcile yourself to losing the money she pulled out of the joint account and she doesn't decide to come after you for more.  Is that accurate?  Acknowledging that it's not going to be fair, how much inequity are you willing to accept and chalk up to the cost of getting the divorce finalized and being able to choose if/how you interact with her from now own?

[ForeverDad]

2. (Note: I do plan to shut down or cancel all joint credit ASAP; Unfortunately, I need to get a credit card just in my name first.)

7. I used to want to be friends with her when all this settled out. I’m not longer sure I do. Part of me regrets that we still have so many common friends and volunteer for a common organization, so I cannot cut all ties as much as I want to.

9. I need to find a lawyer... .

I'm surprised you didn't get your own separate credit card account after you separated.

Generally it is impractical or impossible to continue a relationship with a BPD ex.  Too hard to handle the endless boundary busting, etc.

A lawyer is helpful to keep the issues at arms length, businesslike, and reduce the manipulation, guilting and emotional whatevers.  An experienced lawyer will know when emotions and side issues get in the way.

[Sluggo]

ote: I do plan to shut down or cancel all joint credit ASAP; Unfortunately, I need to get a credit card just in my name first.)

As you may or may not know, you can sign up for a capital one card (or other major card), right now on their site.  It takes just a few minutes.  I would do that, as you said, before you cancel the card.  However, it is super easy.  Worst case, if credit is poor, you can get a secured card. 

that is an easy one to check off the list. 

[livednlearned]

Hi GK,

 

Any update on how things are going?

[Grey Kitty]

Update is I'm going with easy/cheap/lazy/get it over with.

She filed a couple days ago. Got a lawyer to do it for her, mostly because of residency issues and the fact that neither of us spends most of the year in the state we "reside" in, so having the lawyer there makes it all easier. (I told her that she used up my financial generosity already, so she at least paid the lawyer and court costs.)

 If I send in paperwork saying I agree with what she put in the petition for dissolution, it is legally over in ~89 days.

I probably won't even bother hiring a lawyer.

She previously signed the boat over completely into my name; I filed the paperwork, waiting for a new title.

We also went through our stored stuff at my parents, figuring out what was hers, what was mine, and about 8 big boxes worth of joint stuff that is clearly joint, and we didn't have time/energy to deal with like old journals, photographs, sentimental papers, etc.

Getting much less interconnected between us now.