Dropped on my head, left without a home and daughter Pt. 3

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

If YOU win a control battle by following through... .they will eventually respect the boundary, even if they don't "admit" that they "lost".  Their behavior will likely get better.

Make sense?

Yes, it does. In other words, speak softly and carry a big stick.

Incidentally, my fear going into this was that I get here and faced the "final discard". Not sure if you read my longer post, but - WOW - it was brutal with her today. No compassion for me, no empathy, no nice things to say about our past or good times.  Just ice cold, brutal stuff like, "I don't love you. I don't even care about you. I don't hate you. I don't have any feelings for you at all."

(That seemed rehearsed to hurt me).

Stuff like that. Now granted, she has said stuff like that before - and "broken up" before, but this feels different. But who knows? She said she did "weeks of counseling" and went through a "lot of pain" and in the same breath says she has NO feelings for me?

I'm trying to "hold what she says loosely", but it's really tough when she's throwing stuff like that at me. Again, most of that I have heard before and we've worked past it. I reminded her she told me she loved me a couple of days before I left and that we were planning on getting married and she was wearing my engagement ring and she said, "I said that? I don't think so".

Brutal.

Like one of you guys said, she is VERY angry. I acknowledged that and she said, "No, I'm not".

We talked about going to a counselor - and me being involved with HER counselor in some sessions and she agreed, but only if I talked about how we handle our daughter. Not anything about our relationship.

She held her hand over her heart and she said, "There is nothing left here".

Hard to take.  But again, I have heard this stuff from her before and it has changed.

I said, "I understand you're feeling that way. Maybe in counseling we can start to rebuild our trust and get those feelings back again. They were there - intensely before. Now that we have a child together, I think it's really important not to just throw our relationship away without getting some help first. We also promised each other that we would never end this relationship without couples counseling first."

She was very resistant saying, "we've said that for a long time and we never did it"

I said, "Well, we've never been in as bad a situation and right before I left, we were doing great and planning for the future."

Which, of course, she disagreed with.

So tough to deal with these phases. It really feels to me that she is punishing me. And underneath all that hard, cold exterior, she is in a lot of pain and really wants a good relationship but is afraid "I won't be there for her" in the future.

We talked about this and she kept asking, "Will you stay in Germany? Will you stay here?"

She asked this in the context of our "daughter being able to count on" me, but I feel she is projecting HER feelings of being hurt by my leaving onto our daughter. She talks about it constantly.  It's hard for HER to admit she is hurt, so our daughter is a convenient place to "hang that hurt".

It's like I can see through the act / ploy / projection, but just can't reach her.

I tell her I love her and she says, ":)on't say that".

Very sad.

Last year before Christmas I woke up from a nap and walked into the living room where she was and she said - glaring at me - "I hate you. Just get out of my life. Just LEAVE".

So I packed my bags, walked out and stayed with a friend. I booked a ticket back to California. I stayed no contact for 48 hours and she was freaking out. I thought it was over.

I got together with her and she said, "you know I have a mask sometimes. That was my mask speaking. I say things I don't mean".

In other words, she "wears a mask to protect herself emotionally. This is what I call her "tough girl mask".

It feels like this is what she is wearing now. But it's almost impossible to break through.

She IS spending time with me, asked me to take her and my daughter to the airport, we ate breakfast together and laid in bed together with our daughter this morning.

It FEELS like - at least from her behavior - there is still a possibility to rekindle things, but her words are so different.

Any thoughts?  Ideas on how to approach this? Should I throw in the towel?

How should I act towards her?

[codependable]

If YOU win a control battle by following through... .they will eventually respect the boundary, even if they don't "admit" that they "lost".  Their behavior will likely get better.

Make sense?

Yes, it does. In other words, speak softly and carry a big stick.

Incidentally, my fear going into this was that I get here and faced the "final discard". Not sure if you read my longer post, but - WOW - it was brutal with her today. No compassion for me, no empathy, no nice things to say about our past or good times.  Just ice cold, brutal stuff like, "I don't love you. I don't even care about you. I don't hate you. I don't have any feelings for you at all."

(That seemed rehearsed to hurt me).

Stuff like that. Now granted, she has said stuff like that before - and "broken up" before, but this feels different. But who knows? She said she did "weeks of counseling" and went through a "lot of pain" and in the same breath says she has NO feelings for me?

I'm trying to "hold what she says loosely", but it's really tough when she's throwing stuff like that at me. Again, most of that I have heard before and we've worked past it. I reminded her she told me she loved me a couple of days before I left and that we were planning on getting married and she was wearing my engagement ring and she said, "I said that? I don't think so".

Brutal.

Like one of you guys said, she is VERY angry. I acknowledged that and she said, "No, I'm not".

We talked about going to a counselor - and me being involved with HER counselor in some sessions and she agreed, but only if I talked about how we handle our daughter. Not anything about our relationship.

She held her hand over her heart and she said, "There is nothing left here".

Hard to take.  But again, I have heard this stuff from her before and it has changed.

I said, "I understand you're feeling that way. Maybe in counseling we can start to rebuild our trust and get those feelings back again. They were there - intensely before. Now that we have a child together, I think it's really important not to just throw our relationship away without getting some help first. We also promised each other that we would never end this relationship without couples counseling first."

She was very resistant saying, "we've said that for a long time and we never did it"

I said, "Well, we've never been in as bad a situation and right before I left, we were doing great and planning for the future."

Which, of course, she disagreed with.

So tough to deal with these phases. It really feels to me that she is punishing me. And underneath all that hard, cold exterior, she is in a lot of pain and really wants a good relationship but is afraid "I won't be there for her" in the future.

We talked about this and she kept asking, "Will you stay in Germany? Will you stay here?"

She asked this in the context of our "daughter being able to count on" me, but I feel she is projecting HER feelings of being hurt by my leaving onto our daughter. She talks about it constantly.  It's hard for HER to admit she is hurt, so our daughter is a convenient place to "hang that hurt".

It's like I can see through the act / ploy / projection, but just can't reach her.

I tell her I love her and she says, ":)on't say that".

Very sad.

Last year before Christmas I woke up from a nap and walked into the living room where she was and she said - glaring at me - "I hate you. Just get out of my life. Just LEAVE".

So I packed my bags, walked out and stayed with a friend. I booked a ticket back to California. I stayed no contact for 48 hours and she was freaking out. I thought it was over.

I got together with her and she said, "you know I have a mask sometimes. That was my mask speaking. I say things I don't mean".

In other words, she "wears a mask to protect herself emotionally. This is what I call her "tough girl mask".

It feels like this is what she is wearing now. But it's almost impossible to break through.

She IS spending time with me, asked me to take her and my daughter to the airport, we ate breakfast together and laid in bed together with our daughter this morning.

It FEELS like - at least from her behavior - there is still a possibility to rekindle things, but her words are so different.

Any thoughts?  Ideas on how to approach this? Should I throw in the towel?

How should I act towards her?

[formflier]

This may be a bit long and detailed... .time is short... stuff is happening fast for you. 

Yes, it does. In other words, speak softly and carry a big stick.

Close... .you do have the concept.  In many situations, the speaking part matters almost none...   For instance... she blathers... you say "If you don't quit saying abusive things, I will leave"... .then you leave.

99% of the power in that comes from you leaving... .perhaps if you had said "I'll be back in 10 minutes when there are no threats between us... "  I might give you a couple percent "impact" for words.

Said another way... .don't threaten... .do.

Incidentally, my fear going into this was that I get here and faced the "final discard". Not sure if you read my longer post, but - WOW - it was brutal with her today. No compassion for me, no empathy, no nice things to say about our past or good times.  Just ice cold, brutal stuff like, "I don't love you. I don't even care about you. I don't hate you. I don't have any feelings for you at all."

Trust me.  She understands your fear... .instinctively she understands it and exploits it.  I say instinctive because I don't thing many pwBPD do this in a calculating way.  It's just what they do.  Most "nons" fall for it... .hook line and sinker (just like you). 

For now... .I'm going to be blunt and tell you you are going to have to have armor to let this bounce off you.  No reaction.  Also just as importantly... .when she "flips" you back white... .and wishes you could be married tomorrow... .don't react... .roll with it.
 

Stuff like that. Now granted, she has said stuff like that before - and "broken up" before, but this feels different. But who knows? She said she did "weeks of counseling" and went through a "lot of pain" and in the same breath says she has NO feelings for me?

And she will say things like this again... .and again.  It works for her... why should she stop?  Understand that when I say it "works for her"... .she is filling a "dysfunctional need".  To her... it doesn't "feel" dysfunctional.

I'm trying to "hold what she says loosely", but it's really tough when she's throwing stuff like that at me. Again, most of that I have heard before and we've worked past it. I reminded her she told me she loved me a couple of days before I left and that we were planning on getting married and she was wearing my engagement ring and she said, "I said that? I don't think so".

Brutal.

Brutal... .yes it was brutal... .for you... .and for her

Dude... .listen.  You invalidated her many times.  Bigtime.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

The most important thing you can do in the short term is STOP INVALIDATING HER

Anytime you feel like you should "remind" her of how she used to feel... .STOP.  She doesn't feel that way any more and she feels like she never ever felt the way you are reminding her she felt. 

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Like one of you guys said, she is VERY angry. I acknowledged that and she said, "No, I'm not".
[/quote]

If she says she is angry... you can validate that.  If she appears angry... .don't help her identify her feelings by "telling" or suggesting an emotion.

What is she was not angry... .but was scared.  You insist she is angry.  Perhaps it matters to her.  It would to me.

Much more important that you don't invalidate her than you validate her  1 invalidation is likely going to take 10 or more validations to "fix"... .to give you an idea of how powerful invalidation is.

I've got to split up some of these posts.  More in a bit.

FF

 

[formflier]

We talked about going to a counselor - and me being involved with HER counselor in some sessions and she agreed, but only if I talked about how we handle our daughter. Not anything about our relationship.

I think it is a good idea for you to go.  I think it is a good idea for you to see and understand her desire for CONTROL.  Let a T work on this... .  Having a place where you can both talk about your daughter is good.

She held her hand over her heart and she said, "There is nothing left here".

Hard to take.  But again, I have heard this stuff from her before and it has changed.

I said, "I understand you're feeling that way. Maybe in counseling we can start to rebuild our trust and get those feelings back again. They were there - intensely before. Now that we have a child together, I think it's really important not to just throw our relationship away without getting some help first. We also promised each other that we would never end this relationship without couples counseling first."

Dude... .again.  Does she believe she had intense feelings for you before?  This was incredibly invalidating to her.  My guess is that she experience this as extremely pressuring... .as an extreme "pull" signal... .so she likely sent back a "push" signal to get you away.

So... she says things like this in the future.  You say "Oh my...   If you want to say more about this, I'm ready to listen."   Do you see how that sentence doesn't invalidate her.  Doesn't really validate either, but it shows you are open... .leaves ball in her court.

She was very resistant saying, "we've said that for a long time and we never did it"

I said, "Well, we've never been in as bad a situation and right before I left, we were doing great and planning for the future."

Which, of course, she disagreed with.

Invalidating... . 

Minimizing talk about r/s now is good idea.

We talked about this and she kept asking, "Will you stay in Germany? Will you stay here?"

She asked this in the context of our "daughter being able to count on" me, but I feel she is projecting HER feelings of being hurt by my leaving onto our daughter. She talks about it constantly.  It's hard for HER to admit she is hurt, so our daughter is a convenient place to "hang that hurt".

This is likely to be true.  You need to be able to know this... .and not try to convince or "show" her about this.

It's like I can see through the act / ploy / projection, but just can't reach her.

STOP TRYING TO REACH HER.  Said another way... .it's like you are trying to "convince" her of certain things.  Just be there... ."do" a r/s with her for a while.  Yes it will be mainly on her terms.  Let some edge get off her hurt... .see where this goes. 

Listen to her.  Understand her

I tell her I love her and she says, ":)on't say that".

Very sad.

Yep... same answer as before... .INVALIDATING.

Let her take the lead in expressing stuff like this.  You are "out in front of her".  You need to be between her and neutral (zero) on the emotion scale.

Last year before Christmas I woke up from a nap and walked into the living room where she was and she said - glaring at me - "I hate you. Just get out of my life. Just LEAVE".

So I packed my bags, walked out and stayed with a friend. I booked a ticket back to California. I stayed no contact for 48 hours and she was freaking out. I thought it was over.

For future reference, if this ever happens again.  Get her a glass of water, let her know you are going to go get finished waking up and will be back in 10 minutes. 

Big picture... .try to relax... .let go of your fear. 

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Back up a bit, codependable... .I haven't checked in much since you've seen her a couple times upon getting back.

You are in the middle of some crazy and intense interactions with her. And I'd say that you have really done well under the circumstances. Especially seeing that her parents aren't totally against you, and that your daughter is happy to be with you... .even your interactions with your exgf are making things better, not worse.

Since you will have (at most) occasional text/phone contact with her in Egypt, this week you will have some time get above the fray and think once she leaves.

I'd recommend you take some real time reading this topic on what it takes to be in this kind of relationship. Yes, you know, having been there for three years already, but this is an eyes-open view of what it takes to make it succeed.

The Do's and Don'ts for a BP relationship

That's a really good backdrop for you... .and you have to co-parent with her for a couple decades, unless you want to give up on your daughter. It applies whether you and she are able to be in a romantic relationship or not.

Which leads me to the larger/strategic questions you need to focus on, besides the tools and lessons for dealing with a pwBPD you find here:

1. It takes two people to chose a relationship. It takes one person to end it. The person ending it can do so with a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all. In that regard, the other person's opinion and desires do not matter.

So if she says your r/s is OVER, please understand and believe that that is all it takes to end the relationship!

I do believe that your gf is conflicted and overwhelmed by her fears, anger, and other feelings. I do believe that she's still got feelings for you. As I said, she doesn't need a "good reason" to end it, and I don't really believe she has a "good reason".

But believe that it is over at least right now when she says it is.

There's no way for either of us to know if she will want to get back together with you or not. Some pwBPD go through dozens of breakup/recycles with their partner. Some pwBPD leave without a reason never to come back. There's no way to know.

My recommendation: At least believe this yourself, and be willing to speak it to her, either in words, or just letting your actions show this, letting her "see" it.

Acknowledge that your r/s is over, and be clear that you want to try again if she is willing.

2. Her ability to end your romantic r/s and her choice not to live with you does NOT give her the right to withhold your daughter from you completely.

What she's been saying about the end of this r/s is that you are completely out of her life and her daughter's life.

Right now, you are trying to repair/rebuild/recreate your r/s with her. With a lot of conflict to resolve and recover from, and more still happening.

Asserting your rights to your daughter with a lawyer will only add to this conflict. From a relationship perspective, my gut feeling is put this off for a week~month after she returns--If she changes her mind and invites you to move back in with her, you will get your daughter every day--far more than you have any chance of getting in a custody battle.

Still, consult your lawyer. You need to know how the courts/legal system will view your actions. You do not want to jeopardize your case for custody later.

You also need to know what a custody battle looks like, how long, or how short it will be, how much your legal bills would be, and what the least or most custody you could end up with, what the least or most support you could be forced to pay, etc., etc., etc.

I strongly recommend you work out a game plan for a full legal game plan to force your gf to give you shared custody; I am assuming that is the best you can get. And from what you say, she sounds like she is a responsible mother, and shouldn't have her daughter taken away from her, and I don't think you want this anyways.

I also recommend you wait to pull the trigger and start the process. (See part 1 above.)

[codependable]

Trust me.  She understands your fear... .instinctively she understands it and exploits it.  I say instinctive because I don't thing many pwBPD do this in a calculating way.  It's just what they do.  Most "nons" fall for it... .hook line and sinker (just like you).

Meaning? How do we "fall for it", we believe what she says and reacts?

I'm going to be blunt and tell you you are going to have to have armor to let this bounce off you.  No reaction.

Will do. However, what does this accomplish? Shows her I can't be manipulated?
 

Brutal... .yes it was brutal... .for you... .and for her

Because of my invalidation, I assume.

Anytime you feel like you should "remind" her of how she used to feel... .STOP.  She doesn't feel that way any more and she feels like she never ever felt the way you are reminding her she felt. 

Had no idea that would be invalidating. Thanks for pointing out all these specific examples. Very helpful.

quote author=formflier link=topic=302516.msg12828969#msg12828969 date=1482376885]
Much more important that you don't invalidate her than you validate her
[/quote]

Got it. Won't forget the 10-1 ratio.

[codependable]

I think it is a good idea for you to go.  I think it is a good idea for you to see and understand her desire for CONTROL.  Let a T work on this... . 

Interesting. Would be great for the T to see this need to control of hers.

Dude... .again.  Does she believe she had intense feelings for you before?  This was incredibly invalidating to her. 

Good point. I'm starting to get the gist of invalidating.

So... she says things like this in the future.  You say "Oh my...   If you want to say more about this, I'm ready to listen."   :)o you see how that sentence doesn't invalidate her.  Doesn't really validate either, but it shows you are open... .leaves ball in her court.

Minimizing talk about r/s now is good idea.

It's a VERY good idea. Will expand on at more in the next post.

STOP TRYING TO REACH HER.  Said another way... .it's like you are trying to "convince" her of certain things.  Just be there... ."do" a r/s with her for a while.

Just "doing" a relationship with her is really powerful and game-changing for me.

Let her take the lead in expressing stuff like this.  You are "out in front of her".  You need to be between her and neutral (zero) on the emotion scale.

Absolutely true.

For future reference, if this ever happens again.  Get her a glass of water, let her know you are going to go get finished waking up and will be back in 10 minutes. 

Good stop-gap solution.

[/quote]

[codependable]

You are in the middle of some crazy and intense interactions with her. And I'd say that you have really done well under the circumstances.

Thanks. I'm doing the best I can with my developing skill set.

Since you will have (at most) occasional text/phone contact with her in Egypt, this week you will have some time get above the fray and think once she leaves.

I will. I had a conversation with a German lawyer here today!  My lawyer said... .

a.) I'm not required to pay child support if I'm living with my gf. So I have no responsibility to "back pay" the last 1 1/2 years. It starts when I move out.
b.) What she did when I was in California violated my visitation rights with my daughter.
c.) My attorney was SHOCKED that my GF took my daughter to Egypt. She was absolutely floored by this because it's known here that Egypt is dangerous and Germans are avoiding it right now. She was even MORE shocked that she blocked me from seeing my daughter over the entire Christmas holiday. My attorney said, "You need to go to the Jugendamt (child services) and explain to them that you're an American, you informed your girlfriend before she made any other plans that you wanted to see your daughter for Christmas. You went ahead AFTER you told her this and booked a ticket to a Middle East country that is considered dangerous - against your wishes. You spent time and money to visit your daughter over Christmas and she violated your right to be with your daughter on Christmas. Here in Germany, Christmas is the MOST important family day all year. The Jugenamt will NOT take this lightly."

She also said I MUST asset my rights to my daughter immediately - and to do so while my gf is in Egypt. She said my GF seems unstable. She said I must file a formal request for a "parenting plan" so I can see my daughter. If my GF refuses to do this, we go to family court which is FREE here in Germany. At the same time, I need to file to get joint custody of my daughter. She said it is now automatically granted to fathers in almost ALL cases. There was a big change to the laws here in Germany a few years ago. The mother can object to a father getting joint custody, but he must be REALLY bad.

So I have a plan. She was emphatic that I start the process immediately to assert my rights.

So if she says your r/s is OVER, please understand and believe that that is all it takes to end the relationship!

I accept this logically, but it is VERY difficult to deal with emotionally. Especially since I "lose two": both my GF as well as my daughter. Even if I get a good visitation schedule, there is nothing like being a family together.

So hard.

I do believe that your gf is conflicted and overwhelmed by her fears, anger, and other feelings. I do believe that she's still got feelings for you.

I think she does. I took them to the airport today and she allowed me to put my arm around her as we walked through the airport. It was a great feeling. I also was able to touch her many other times, give her a hug and she hugged back.

I don't think she would allow this AT ALL if she didn't have any feelings left for me. It has been a bit like this in the past. I would go on a trip and she would take a few days to warm up to me.

What FF said about just "doing" a r/s with her is absolutely correct. Her behavior (body language, allowing me to hug her, wrap my arm around her) makes me feel like she still has feelings for me. But when I TALK about our r/s, she goes ice cold.

It's totally different.

I hugged her goodbye and whispered in her ear, "I'm here. I love you. Please give our little family one more chance".

She shook her head "no" slightly. Again: behavior (hugging, wrapping my arm around her like the good old days) vs words.

I don't know what to make of this. She's conflicted obviously. Or maybe she is simply asserting her need to "control" the relationship. Or maybe she is so hurt she is punishing me. Her behavior says one thing and her words another.

But believe that it is over at least right now when she says it is.

So difficult for me to accept that. So difficult.

At least believe this yourself, and be willing to speak it to her, either in words, or just letting your actions show this, letting her "see" it.

I will. It'll be very tough, but I will. Not sure what words to use. I feel if I acknowledge that, it's done forever. Part of me thinks she's playing a push-pull game as she has in the past. She always says she wants me to "fight for her and the relationship". So she feels "worth it".

Asserting your rights to your daughter with a lawyer will only add to this conflict. From a relationship perspective, my gut feeling is put this off for a week~month after she returns--

I tend to agree with this.

I strongly recommend you work out a game plan for a full legal game plan to force your gf to give you shared custody; I am assuming that is the best you can get.

I think it is.  With shared custody, I can block her from taking my daughter to places like Egypt or the Middle East.

And from what you say, she sounds like she is a responsible mother, and shouldn't have her daughter taken away from her, and I don't think you want this anyways.

Not so sure about that anymore. This Egypt thing is really bad judgement. The German government is warning Germans to stay away.

I also recommend you wait to pull the trigger and start the process. (See part 1 above.)

I will get things in order and see how it goes when she gets back.

Thanks - and any insights into the body language vs. speaking would be helpful to me.

[flourdust]

Grey Kitty has given you some excellent advice. You also need to take into account what the lawyer has said about the timing. You don't want to give up any rights by delaying -- so explore this option of waiting a bit with your lawyer before you make any decisions.

Thanks - and any insights into the body language vs. speaking would be helpful to me.

Another way of looking at this is that she is telling you what she wants, and you are searching for "body language" so that you don't have to believe her. Is this truly a mixed message or a technique for you to ignore her when she says something you don't like?

[codependable]

Another way of looking at this is that she is telling you what she wants, and you are searching for "body language" so that you don't have to believe her. Is this truly a mixed message or a technique for you to ignore her when she says something you don't like?

This is interesting. I'm open to that possibility. I DO think my touching, hugging, etc may be "probes". Then again, it was so natural for us before that it seems normal to do.

The first day back that I saw her, I tried touching her very lightly and non-threateningly and she would recoil with "don't touch me". I backed off.

Then we started to hug again the next day and today I wrapped my arm around her and we walked for five or ten minutes together like that.  She pushed that exact same move away the first day. But today, no problem. We walked with her in my arms for five or ten minutes. Maybe she is just going along with it because she feels bad (I doubt that, however).

Problem is, she very often says one thing and means another.

It's crazy, but I am almost always wrong when I take her at her word.  This is an on-going joke with us. Often when we had a blowup in the past, it was because I simply took her at her word.  Which meant I failed the test, she was hurt because I was indifferent and didn't "intuit" her real feelings. Again, she often pushes away to see how hard I run after her.  This is her way of proving to herself that I love her.

So, yes, she loves to play this "takeaway game" with me to test what my "real feelings" are - instead of relying on words. She doesn't trust words.

She views my willingness to accept what she says at face value as indifference and a lack of love.  So I'm constantly in these guessing games with her, trying to discern the real meaning behind what she says.  This is why it's so hard for me to take GK's advice and just accept that it's over.

In the past, I've been non-chalant and like, "ok" to her stuff and she is always like, "Wow. You don't even fight for me. This must be REAL love" (sarcastically) and she felt worse.

She "tests" constantly. It's never-ending. She has "broken up" in the past many, many times. And always, it would take about a couple days to a week for her to warm up and we get back together again.

So, this is really confusing for me. What has worked in the past was me expressing my love for her and my willingness to "fight" for our relationship.

But maybe I was right before when I simply took her at her word.

Maybe it's the best now.

[Grey Kitty]

She also said I MUST asset my rights to my daughter immediately - and to do so while my gf is in Egypt. She said my GF seems unstable. She said I must file a formal request for a "parenting plan" so I can see my daughter. If my GF refuses to do this, we go to family court which is FREE here in Germany. At the same time, I need to file to get joint custody of my daughter. She said it is now automatically granted to fathers in almost ALL cases. There was a big change to the laws here in Germany a few years ago. The mother can object to a father getting joint custody, but he must be REALLY bad.

So I have a plan. She was emphatic that I start the process immediately to assert my rights.

I suggest you make sure that the lawyer is on the same page, doing her best to protect you AND to act in your interests.

I'm guessing you want to stop and not aim anything further at your gf if you can avoid it. Things like her being legally declared an unfit mother, having her daughter taken away to protect her daughter from her, or anything similar. (No idea the German legal concepts around such things)

If true, be clear to your lawyer that you do not wish to do these things, and do not want to (unintentionally) unleash the Jugenamt on her like this. Make sure you understand this kind of thing. There is a fine line between letting your gf experience the consequences of her behavior (withholding your daughter from you illegally), and aiming law enforcement at her.

But, whatever you do, don't fail to take action in a way that would jeopardize your future custody situation!

Since she got on the plane to Egypt with your daughter already, there's not much to DO about that now. Let that go and hope for the best. And take care of your legal stuff in the meantime. It doesn't sound like you have the luxury of trying to repair your relationship without asserting your parental rights first.

Don't worry about it THAT much. You cannot move back into a situation where she controls you completely. It would harm you and your daughter too much. If you do assert your independence and your shared custody of your daughter, she will figure that out... .and she will decide whether she wants to get back together with you as more of an equal or not... .If she doesn't or cannot, you never *really* had a chance anyways. If she does, it puts you on a better footing to move back in.

[babyducks]

Hi codependable,

When I very first joined this forum one of the older experienced members said this in a thread to me.

“twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to shape yourself to match her ability to understand/comprehend ends up with you terribly twisted in your own thinking and overly identified with her thinking.”

That certainly summed up what I was doing.

Problem is, she very often says one thing and means another.

It's crazy, but I am almost always wrong when I take her at her word.

She is thriving on reactions, it shows she has an impact on you. It is validating.

Chaos is her normality.

Does she hate you? Yes, Does she love you? Yes. This means she is feeling. Contrasting feelings makes them seem more extreme. One boosts the impact of the other

Put these two together and she feels alive. Shes doesn't do dull as that makes her feel nothing.

If she feels nothing, she is nothing, as feelings equal fact

She needs to make an impact to prove she exists.

To reign this in you need to stop being reactive and try to stay what we call centered. Otherwise you will always be one step behind trying to catch up with her mood of the moment. Off balance and angry, giving fuel to her victim stance.

If you join her in chaos, you normalize chaos and reduce her need to escape from it. Chaos shared is not as frightening a place to be.

For me staying centered meant identifying my priorities, values and desires and living them.   

'ducks

[Notwendy]

I've been following your story and I think it is great that you are persistent in being a parent to your daughter and expressing your feelings to your GF that you still care about her. It is clear that you want to do the right thing for your child. You are also very generous to provide the support you do.

There is one thing about your post that bothered me and it is that you got physical in a romantic way after she replied no to your telling you expressing your love for her. You assumed that she must have feelings of she "let" you. But you can't know what she's feeling besides what she said .She has said no to a romantic relationship. If I said that - and a man put his arm around me- I'd feel a boundary was violated.

I know you meant no harm. But it's an old stereotype that when a woman says "no" she doesn't mean it. Yes she has BPD- she may say no today, yes another day. But in the moment - no means no. Putting your arm around her may not be welcome. She may gave considered that in the moment - at the airport- it was easier not to fight it. There's no way of knowing what she thought. But I think if you are holding her- you'd rather know for sure that she wants it too. In this case-she won't be saying no.

[formflier]

My gut reaction is to follow your lawyer's advice.

I have been in the unfortunate situation of having lots of lawyers hired for a while.  Nothing to do a BPD.  I spend a lot of my time asking WHY they recommend one thing over another.

If you did not hear WHY, from legal point of view, you need to act quickly... .Get back in lawyer's office ASAP.

2nd issue. STOP expressing your feelings about her a d asking for another chance.

FF

[codependable]

I'm guessing you want to stop and not aim anything further at your gf if you can avoid it. Things like her being legally declared an unfit mother, having her daughter taken away to protect her daughter from her, or anything similar.

Correct. I have no desire to make her life miserable or put my child through any trauma. I communicated that to my attorney and told her I wanted to avoid being adversarial at this point. The plan she presented was an "invitation" to my GF to draw up a visitation schedule together. If she refused, then I could take the next steps.

Since she got on the plane to Egypt with your daughter already, there's not much to DO about that now. Let that go and hope for the best. And take care of your legal stuff in the meantime.

Right - that's what I plan to do.

You cannot move back into a situation where she controls you completely. It would harm you and your daughter too much. If you do assert your independence and your shared custody of your daughter, she will figure that out... .and she will decide whether she wants to get back together with you as more of an equal or not... .If she doesn't or cannot, you never *really* had a chance anyways. If she does, it puts you on a better footing to move back in.

True. I have (at this point) given up on moving back in with them. I plan to move forward, get my own permanent place and see if we can rebuild our relationship from there. I did live with her at another point (3 years ago) and I moved out for a few months and we continued our relationship. In some ways it was actually better. This is what I'm hoping for now.

[codependable]

She is thriving on reactions, it shows she has an impact on you. It is validating.

So, so true. She loves to stir things up and create drama where none exists.

Put these two together and she feels alive. Shes doesn't do dull as that makes her feel nothing.

If she feels nothing, she is nothing, as feelings equal fact

She needs to make an impact to prove she exists.

This makes sense. I mentioned in an earlier post that she once told me, "I have this thing where if somebody isn't physically present with me, I feel like they don't love me anymore".

In other words, she doesn't exist for them. She feels invisible.

To reign this in you need to stop being reactive and try to stay what we call centered.

This is a big challenge for me. Unfortunately, it's easy for her to "bait me" with nasty comments, tear into me, devalue me and I instinctively try to defend myself. I think, "How dare she say I don't support her at all when I'm by her side every single day doing everything with her and my child!". Some of the this she says are SO outrageous, I feel my self-respect and self-esteem requires a response. But I'm working on it.

For me staying centered meant identifying my priorities, values and desires and living them.

This is what I plan to do. My biggest priority is having a great relationship with my daughter(s). Any relationship I might salvage with my GF is behind that in priority.

Thanks.

[codependable]

I've been following your story and I think it is great that you are persistent in being a parent to your daughter and expressing your feelings to your GF that you still care about her. It is clear that you want to do the right thing for your child. You are also very generous to provide the support you do.

Thanks.

There is one thing about your post that bothered me and it is that you got physical in a romantic way after she replied no to your telling you expressing your love for her. You assumed that she must have feelings of she "let" you.

This is a good point. It was so natural to put my arm around her, I just did it. But maybe you were right: maybe she hated it and just didn't tell me. I would never want to force a hug on somebody that didn't want it. Then again, I think she would have pushed my arm off or said, "Take your hand off me" in NO uncertain terms if she didn't want it.  But maybe not.

I did notice, however, she was touching me, too.  Touches on my arm when speaking to me, putting her hand on my back at one point, etc. Again, maybe these were just "muscle memory" moves from our days before.

Because her words are all over the place and haven't been a reliable indicator of her feelings in the past, I think I came to rely more on touch as a way to gauge her feelings towards me.

However, I think what I'm getting from just about everybody is to rely on her words (which is so hard for me to do sometimes because she is often not honest with her feelings), not anything else.

So I will do that from now on.

[codependable]

My gut reaction is to follow your lawyer's advice.

If you did not hear WHY, from legal point of view, you need to act quickly... .Get back in lawyer's office ASAP.

She told me why. She said it was important to show my GF right away that there are boundaries and that creating these boundaries will help me assert my rights over time. It sets the stage. Right now, my GF acts as if my daughter "belongs" only to her. She acts as if I have NO say in any matter pertaining to my daughter. She said it's important to establish my equal rights to my daughter as soon as I can. With that said, I told her I wanted to avoid being overly confrontational. She agreed and presented a plan that would put the ball in my GF's court and allow her to "join me" in working out a parenting / visitation agreement. It's a very slow, non-threatening approach.

2nd issue. STOP expressing your feelings about her and asking for another chance.

Yeah, I'm done with that. I wanted her to know that I will be there for her if she wanted to try to rebuild. At this point she doesn't want to, so I will stop.

If anything, it may be pushing her farther away.

We did have a good time this morning and really felt like a couple, although as you say, I'm "getting in front of her too much".

I thought I would tell her one more time before she got on the plane so she could think about it as she flew to Egypt.

But no more of that.

[Notwendy]

I think it is confusing when someone doesn't speak directly, but getting into "mind reading" ( " if you loved me you'd know what I want" ) and reading between the lines leaves room for drama. Honestly, we can't read minds. I understand the idea that she wants to be pursued and gets upset if you take her at face value- but this isn't an effective way for people to relate to each other.

She may not change- but you can set this as a value in your relationship and speak about your intentions.  Something like- I feel that in the past you didn't want me to accept what you tell me at face value, but I really can't tell what another person is thinking and need to rely on your words. You've told me you do not want to be in a relationship with me, and while I feel sad about that, I will respect your wishes. I hope we can continue to work on a good co-parenting relationship for the sake of our daughter.

Our words do have meaning, and they also speak to our integrity. People who say what they mean and mean what they say are trustworthy. It is hard to relate to someone who isn't consistent with their words. We can take note of that, but I also think it is important to set that standard for ourselves and not try to mind read in relationships.

I think it is also important to not take the words personally and not be emotionally reactive to them in the moment. I think we've all heard accusations and cruel words- in the moment. But if we keep in mind that they reflect the other person's feelings in the moment and not react to them- we can diffuse the drama. I think you can believe what she says about her- such as saying no to a relationship. If she calls you names, or makes accusations to you in the heat of the moment- you can believe she is feeling that- at least in the moment- but that doesn't make it true about you.

All anyone can do in a relationship is know our own feelings- and control our own behavior. You have many things going on here. First is the welfare of your daughter and your rights as a father. That you have rights to. You are her father and she is underage. Her mother is an adult and is free to make her own choices.

[formflier]

Did your lawyer say that you would be at a legal disadvantage by following the nonconfrontational approach?

Create a boundary for yourself.  I will not be repetitive about my feelings without asking.

Do you understand my feelings on (fill in the blank)?

If she says no... .Ask if she said like you to share.

If she says yes... .Ask her to share her understanding.


Etc etc

FF

[codependable]

Did your lawyer say that you would be at a legal disadvantage by following the nonconfrontational approach?

No, she (my lawyer) suggested the non-confrontational approach.

There are two parts to our plan:

1.) A co-parenting plan and visitation schedule written up with the help of the Jugendamt: this is not necessarily confrontational. I go in while my GF is in Egypt, sit down with a person at the Jugendamt and we creat an "invitation" which is sent via email and regular mail to my GF. She and I go into the Jugendamt together and work out a plan together with their help. My attorney DID say, however, that I must tell the Jugendamt about my GF blocking me and violating my visitation rights over Christmas. She said this is important to document for future situations where she blocks me from seeing my daughter. The Jugendamt may not even reveal to my GF that they have this information.

2.) I need to file for "joint custody". Joint custody in Germany is different from the U.S. Here, it means "I get a say on all major life decisions for my daughter equally with my GF".  I requested that my GF and I go into the Jugendamt together and do this before many times and my GF refused (she would lose power and control). The main areas that I get a say over would be which school my daughter attends, major medical treatments and surgeries, whether my ex can move my daughter out of the area and - interestingly - where she takes my daughter on holiday. If I HAD joint custody of her before, I could have easily blocked their trip to Egypt (and Turkey a year earlier). She would need my approval before taking my daughter out of the country. This "joint custody" could be a bit confrontational. From what my lawyer said, it is almost always automatically granted to fathers now, except in extreme situations. For a long time my GF refused to go in voluntarily with me to get joint custody. However, just a few months ago I told her I would go ahead and get it on my own. She said, "I think that would be great for M".

Again, I can't always trust what she says, so I'm not sure how she will react. If I were a betting man, I would say she will react very negatively. It means a dramatic loss of power and control for her - especially when taking my daughter "on holiday". She won't like this one bit.

However, my attorney said I MUST do this right away. The longer I go without asserting my rights to my daughter, the worse it will be for me in the long run.

Create a boundary for yourself.  I will not be repetitive about my feelings without asking.

Do you understand my feelings on (fill in the blank)?

If she says no... .Ask if she said like you to share.

If she says yes... .Ask her to share her understanding.

I don't understand this part.

[Grey Kitty]

codependable, you've got a bunch of relationship issues, as well as a bunch of legal issues here, and you are pretty new to these forums.

I strongly recommend you start a topic on the Family Law, Divorce, and Custody board here focused specifically on your legal issues. The senior folks on that board have a lot more experience with the legal side of things, and especially how they play out with a pwBPD. There might even be a member with some experience with German law there. Feel free to repeat some of what you've already said here about the legal stuff.

Meanwhile, on the relationship boards (like this one), you can get support on how to better relate to your girlfriend (ex-girlfriend?).

How are you settling into your new living quarters?

[codependable]

I strongly recommend you start a topic on the Family Law, Divorce, and Custody board

Will do.

Meanwhile, on the relationship boards (like this one), you can get support on how to better relate to your girlfriend (ex-girlfriend?).

I think I have been given very good advice. My biggest takeaways are:

1.) Acknowledge to her that it's over... .(this validates her)... .don't fight that fact with her... .
2.) Stop telling her I love her and asking for a last chance to save our family... .
3.) Stop "getting in front of her" emotionally (relates to #2)... .let her set the pace of any relationship we might restore/rebuild... .
4.) Stop invalidating her (had no idea I was doing that when I referenced feelings she expressed to me before I left).
5.) Get good legal advice (which I have).
6.) Start asserting my parental rights over my child.
7.) Stop taking about the relationship with her. Just "do" the relationship.
8.) Believe her when she says that "it's over".

Did I get these right? Did I miss any other important points?

How are you settling into your new living quarters?

It's okay. It's a rented room via Airbnb in a woman's apartment. A bit weird and close for comfort, but I hope to have my own place fairly soon.

The odd thing is that my exGF (makes me sad to say that) still has all my clothes in my dresser. Last time I went to the States she put all my stuff in storage in the basement, out of sight, out of mind. I thought it was interesting that all my clothes were still in my dresser. Or at least comforting that she didn't immediately throw everything in the basement.

Over the last couple of days we ate breakfast together, fed our daughter and had a generally good time together. She let me stay in "her" apartment while I spent time with our daughter. I took my exGF out to dinner, etc. She seemed to enjoy my company.  This is confusing. It's feels like we're still a couple without it being spoken aloud - and when I do talk about our r/s, she shuts it down. So, obviously, I'm not going to talk about it again!

Maybe I'm clinging to false hope, but it *feels* like we can rebuild something again with me living separately from her. I think if she sees I will be there to support her and be "countable", that she will regain trust in me and we can get back together.

Then again, maybe that's just me engaging in wishful thinking or denying the reality of it being over. I don't know.  All I can say is that it's odd to do all the day-to-day things like we did before and not see *some* hope in that.

Thoughts?

[formflier]

To help you stop saying I love you and all that... .Ask first if you can share feelings.

That was my point.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Again, I can't always trust what she says, so I'm not sure how she will react. If I were a betting man, I would say she will react very negatively. It means a dramatic loss of power and control for her - especially when taking my daughter "on holiday". She won't like this one bit.

I wouldn't bet against you there, but I will offer some perspective on what is happening here with this kind of change.

The prior situation is one where she's stepping over your boundaries, and you were allowing this to happen. That is "normal" because both of you are used to it.

You start to assert and enforce your own boundaries. Even though what you are doing is normal, and is well within your rights, and even is healthy behavior, you are changing the game from what it used to be, and she will notice the difference.

The change will still feel like a very real loss to her, and those feelings are real.

She will (probably) get upset, and turn the heat up on you, applying whatever other or new pressure she can on you, trying to get things back to what was "normal" before.

Assuming you don't capitulate, she will (eventually) adjust to the new "normal".

NOTE: She still gets to chose how she adjusts. It may involve getting back together with you in a new and healthier way. It may not.

[codependable]

To help you stop saying I love you and all that... .Ask first if you can share feelings.

Okay. Looking back, I think it's best for me NOT to say it until she warms up again (if ever).

[codependable]

The prior situation is one where she's stepping over your boundaries, and you were allowing this to happen. That is "normal" because both of you are used to it.

Good point.

The change will still feel like a very real loss to her, and those feelings are real.

She will (probably) get upset, and turn the heat up on you, applying whatever other or new pressure she can on you, trying to get things back to what was "normal" before.

I'm sure she will absolutely panic. One of her greatest fears is that I "steal" our daughter and move back to the U.S. with her. She read some stuff online and it freaked her out. It said it would be very easy for me to "steal" our child and she could never do anything about it. At one point she refused to go to our child's U.S. citizenship application at the U.S. Embassy here in Germany due to this fear. I truly believe (but don't know for sure) this is one big reason she kicked me out.  She changed the locks and she has never done this before. She also took my name off the Kindergarten pickup list.

I was, after all, going on this trip to get more documents for our daughter's citizenship. She and I both agreed I would go and then - BAM! - I was out on the street.

So, yes, this is a HUGE fear of hers. I believe me going to get our designer's citizenship documents triggered her in a big way.  When she allowed me to stay in our apartment and watch our daughter the other day, when she got home she said, "That was a lot of trust in my part".

I told her I would NEVER steal our daughter. I reassured her of that. I believe if I can possibly put something on paper (my lawyer suggested that) stating that I will never remove our daughter from the country without her permission, maybe that would help. It really is paranoia on her part - I think mainly because she lost custody of her older daughter when her daughter was 14. This was incredibly painful for her.

I think this is also a big reason she has tried to prevent me from getting my full rights. It brings up fear, loss and abandonment issues for her.

I really believe when I start the process, she will do exactly what you said: start applying more pressure to me, freak out, etc. The threat she will feel when I get joint custody will probably be too much for her to handle.

I really believe if I start these processes it will be difficult to reconcile. I'm painted totally black now and if I go to the Jugenamt while she is gone will only make it worse. Even so, my lawyer was adamant that I do these two things immediately while she is out of town (visitation schedule / joint custody application).

Given that SHE is alienating me from my child, going to a middle eastern country with my child against my wishes and blocking me 100% from seeing my daughter over Christmas, she should not be surprised this is coming. I wasn't the one who initiated all this stuff. All I wanted to do was see my daughter.

However, maybe she will come to respect me more when I do this because I'm less of a pushover and I'm setting up firm boundaries. And maybe in a weird way it will help our relationship. Who knows.

[formflier]

Okay. Looking back, I think it's best for me NOT to say it until she warms up again (if ever).

And... .ask.

FF

[formflier]

I told her I would NEVER steal our daughter. I reassured her of that. I believe if I can possibly put something on paper (my lawyer suggested that) stating that I will never remove our daughter from the country without her permission, maybe that would help. It really is paranoia on her part - 

OK... .stop reassuring her.

If she brings it up... .listen to her.  Make sure you have it right.

Then

"Let me give this some thought"

My wife is likely more PPD than BPD.  "Fighting" paranoia with papers, signatures... agreements... .entrenches their thoughts and leads them to think they have "beaten" you.

You were going to steal the daughter and she stopped you.

Remember... .it's counter-intuitive... .assurances are not good.

FF

[codependable]

OK... .stop reassuring her.

Then

"Let me give this some thought"

This is great.

My wife is likely more PPD than BPD.  "Fighting" paranoia with papers, signatures... agreements... .entrenches their thoughts and leads them to think they have "beaten" you.

You were going to steal the daughter and she stopped you.

Remember... .it's counter-intuitive... .assurances are not good.

Could be PPD as well. With this there is also BPD behavior included. I do have to say that this fits her to a "T":

"Polatin described the paranoid personality as rigid, suspicious, watchful, self-centered and selfish, inwardly hypersensitive but emotionally undemonstrative. However, when there is a difference of opinion, the underlying mistrust, authoritarianism and rage burst through."

Incredible. I remember a situation where she was feeding our daughter and she started to choke. I took the plate of food and cut it up into smaller pieces. My GF flew into a rage and got up from the table. She interpreted this as "You are a bad Mom"

And I get your point on the assurances. Makes sense.

[formflier]

The power of a question.

Go back to the choking situation.  What if you had patted her on the back... .asked if you could help her?  

Please don't take it from my posts that I have "this paranoia thing figured out".  I DON'T.  

I have some tools that help, and I am much faster at realizing what I am "fighting"... .or "when I step in it".  Still fairly often... .

Don't get wrapped up in labels.  Just understand that paranoia is a big part of it.  

Can you make yourself a "rule" or "personal boundary" around the idea that your wife has issues about being wrong?  She doesn't realize she has this issue.  

If you ever want to change something with your daughter propose it as "something you want to try".  Stay far away from "my way might be better".  When she presses you about why you want to try it... .stay friendly... .shrug... ."intuition I guess... I would feel better if we could try it" (likely she can identify with this type of statement.)

How powerful is invalidation?  How does that relate to paranoia?  Back when I was "reassuring" my wife of my love for her... .and when I was "proving myself innocent" there were theories floating around that I had an out of wedlock child that I introduced to my wife at a McDonalds playland.  She believes I orchestrated "bumping" into this child to "tell her about it".

Reality:  There was a militant breast feeding woman there with a child with the same first name as my wife.  

The name was critical to my wife's theory, because that is how I snuck her on our government insurance.  (the following is what not to do).  I took her down to government insurance office so she could look at our screen, with the technician pulling it up, showing how many people where on there... .when changes got made...

"Nons" would think that would have put the issue to bed.  For my wife, it confirmed the sinister plot, because she now assumed it was a much bigger deal, since I somehow hid it in the govt insurance system.  Perhaps there were other children as well.

She stalked this family on-line for a while, found out where they lived... .pretty scary stuff.  When I had things set up to do a paternity test with one of my kids, and invited her to get the other kid (supposedly mine) to come in and do a paternity test... .(wait for it)... .without batting an eye she agreed it wasn't my kid, but she knew that I had been having an affair with the woman.  "Why else would I be making such a big deal out of it?"

Note for all:  All of my actions in this story were done before finding this site and "learning the rules".  I did just about everything wrong.

Take deep breath... .get back to your world.

Can you understand now why I advise you not to "assure" a paranoid or BPDish person that you love them and will be there... .when they believe otherwise?

Once I understood invalidation, especially on a big scale (like the kid thing), I was able to stop it.  Most of the whopper theories (there are plenty more stories I could tell), went away.

Adding a healthy dose of boundaries also calmed things dramatically.

Your number 1 goal (for the short term) should be to understand invalidation, so you can get rid of it.

FF