Why fight at all?

[RedPixie]

Hey FF,

ive read over the threads you posted and am shocked at how similar peolles experiences are to mine.

JADE I'm taking it on board.

Ive been trying to reason with him for so long its quite a revelation to know its not me being unreasonable to expect adult behaviour,its him he has a disorder he doesn't know how to behave differently.

This all very new to me and i feel guilty for going behind his back and diagnosing him with a disorder. But the last few days have been much easier armed with all these tools and lessons. I'm looking forward to a more peaceful existence.


He overspends allllllll the time then can't cover his bills

He fantasises about boats, gold bars and classic cars

He wants a different life

He wishes he was dead (when we argue)

He overeacts to everday difficulties

He is paranoid about what I'm reading or thinking

He is suspicious of authority / police/ lawyers / estate agents.

He gets very frustrated with traffic and customer service

He breaks and smashes stuff up (this weekend it was the car windscreen)

He wants sex everyday ( i love making love with him / but if i reject him more than 2 days in a row he gets very agitated)

But the biggest battle has been me saying

This behaviour is not normal , calm down, stop overeacting. Your making me anxious,  you are bringing me down. ... .I have definitely been making him feel worse at the worst times... .I've been feeling like his behavior is disrespectful to my space instead of supporting him.

I felt if i validated his feelings it would enable him to continue the behaviors so i did the opposite. 

Thanks again for so much wisdom.

I just thought he was a very difficult man, then when depression hit it was devastating - i think this has got worse in the last few years... .


X x

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Red Pixie,

It's going to feel like a firehose.  Plus... .a lot of how to become successful is to change mindset... .vice learn "exactly" what to do.

Read Palla's post again... .and you can see that she is not teaching exactly what to say... .she is showing a general recipe for how to diffuse a potential high conflict situation.

This will take time for you to learn... .don't rush it... .you will be frustrated... .you will scratch your head and?

Keep up your reading... and your SELF  CARE.

Couple comments:  Take your mind away from diagnosing him.  Leave that to pros.  You need to focus on behavior.  You can respond to a behavior... .

Common experiences:  I had a buddy of mine (who divorced from a high conflict lady)... .comment to me one time that there must be a bat sh$t crazy manual out there that "they" read.  (we're naval aviators... .have a "blunt" way of talking to each other... .  )

Anyway... .please take your observation on-board that there is an order to the disorder.  It WILL seem odd and foreign to you... .but if you learn it... .you will be able to take your r/s to a better place.

Your hubby's permission is not needed! 

FF

[waverider]

2 Motivators for arguments with a pwBPD

#1 A person is trying to push you into JADE so the conflict moves to a ground that you are less secure in so they win as you break and run. Winning is the goal not resolution

#2 You have an underlying insecurity in your decision so you are trying to "sell" your reality to them, as resolution and their acceptance of your reality is important. This generally fails as they are not listening as they are driven by motivation #1

Hence it is better to acknowledge that you appreciate what they are saying, but your actions were based on your reality of the moment along with any imperfections that comes with it. No one is perfect... .Then move right along, before you go in circles due to reasons #1 & #2.

The longer you go in circles the greater your emotions get stirred up and the harder it is to break the tail chasing.

Shutting down a conversation is a black and white action, pwBPD understand black and white thinking, they get over it quick even if they kick up a fuss at first. The grey zone is like the twilight zone to them it stirs up all kinds of triggers and it could go off down any number of rabbit holes, the reality never to be seen again.

[unicorn2014]

He overspends allllllll the time then can't cover his bills

He fantasises about boats, gold bars and classic cars

He wants a different life

He wishes he was dead (when we argue)

He overeacts to everday difficulties

He is paranoid about what I'm reading or thinking

He is suspicious of authority / police/ lawyers / estate agents.

He gets very frustrated with traffic and customer service

He breaks and smashes stuff up (this weekend it was the car windscreen)

He wants sex everyday ( i love making love with him / but if i reject him more than 2 days in a row he gets very agitated)

I felt if i validated his feelings it would enable him to continue the behaviors so i did the opposite. 

Red pixie, that's an amazing list and I can relate to a lot of it. I want to applaud your courage for coming here and detailing that out. That was very brave of you.

I can also relate to not wanting to validate him, in my case its because I am so fed up with the behavior. I was advised by palla to work on self validation.

I hope you and I can both make strides in ceasing to argue with our pwBPD! 

[unicorn2014]

2 Motivators for arguments with a pwBPD

#1 A person is trying to push you into JADE so the conflict moves to a ground that you are less secure in so they win as you break and run. Winning is the goal not resolution

Wow waverider, thanks for this, its very helpful. I'm facing several high conflict situations with my partner, and I really don't want to fall into old behavior. I've actually had my partner demand an explanation after I've told him I'm not going to explain myself. I didn't know my partner was trying to push me into JADE. He's also demanded apologies before as well.

I don't want to go through the pain of a break up, I also don't want to keep repeating the same old, tired, worn out patterns. I want to stay, but I don't want more of the same. We'll see if I can actually change my behavior.

[sweetheart]

When my dBPDh was at his most dysregulated, I didn't realise either that he was pushing me to JADE. So I kept JADEing thinking I could deescalate his behaviour. How wrong was I  , it took me a while to realise that he really couldn't stop his behaviour, but I could stop mine.

Learning not to JADE has for me been the single most important skill I learnt from coming to this forum, it turned my life and my marriage around. It was that powerful.

I want to add unicorn that you are currently in a LDR with your SO, this really can help you. You can quite literally choose to end a conversation by ending the call, Skype, FaceTime, if your SO persists with a conversation you are not happy with.

You withdraw with kindness, quite simply with perhaps SET format. This is your number one go to boundary enforcement along with no JADE. This double whammy of skills can really help you gain some control over your part in this dynamic, and free you up emotionally so you don't feel so ground down by it all.

[unicorn2014]

When my dBPDh was at his most dysregulated, I didn't realise either that he was pushing me to JADE. So I kept JADEing thinking I could deescalate his behaviour. How wrong was I  , it took me a while to realise that he really couldn't stop his behaviour, but I could stop mine.

Learning not to JADE has for me been the single most important skill I learnt from coming to this forum, it turned my life and my marriage around. It was that powerful.

I want to add unicorn that you are currently in a LDR with your SO, this really can help you. You can quite literally choose to end a conversation by ending the call, Skype, FaceTime, if your SO persists with a conversation you are not happy with.

You withdraw with kindness, quite simply with perhaps SET format. This is your number one go to boundary enforcement along with no JADE. This double whammy of skills can really help you gain some control over your part in this dynamic, and free you up emotionally so you don't feel so ground down by it all.

thank you sweetheart!

This actually makes me hopeful, as if the LDR is a blessing in disguise, to give me an opportunity to learn these skills before he moves out here!

I will read up on SET as I have not yet. Thank you so much for your reply.

I tried to learn no JADE in my first marriage with my addict ex husband who I now believe has some borderline traits as well. (He definitely has sociopathic traits, as observed by a former therapist).

[sweetheart]

Absolutely it could be a blessing in disguise, for you to practice now before he moves either nearer or in!

My dBPDh has comorbid schizophrenia with antisocial traits as well, but only when in crisis ( thank goodness ) so I am living testament to the skills working 

My h was dysregulated for about two years before he came back to baseline and has been relatively stable for the last three months, which is the longest period without dysregulated behaviour since 2012.

At first I found the skills hard to use and I felt awkward as though my responses were contrived. My h also spotted some of my changed responses and accused me of analysing him, but I did not acknowledge his words and persevered.

I eventually over time was able to emotionally detach from his projections and splitting defences which brought me eventually to Radical Acceptance. My journey took two years.

[unicorn2014]

Sweetheart, yours is an amazing story and inspiring. My pwBPD will not be moving in with me, his plan is to move closer to me. He was going to move last week and when I found out his divorce had not been filed with the court I asked him to delay his move until it was. He complied.

My pwBPD has been diagnosed with PTSD and clings to that diagnosis, however he told me today that his hypertension drug (which is also used for adhd) is also used for borderline so I'll look that up.

I had a nightmare last night where I was trapped at my parents house and I tried to call him but his number didn't work. I told him about it this morning and then remembered a few weeks ago he threatened to change his number. I told him this and he said he didn't. I had deleted the text .

I told him to describe his behavior to his doctor and he told me his doctor doesn't think he needs a mood stabilizer or an antipsychotic.

I think I'm just going to focus on learning SET.

[waverider]

Boundaries and the ability to resist JADE are closely tied in order to make each other work. SET is the oil that causes all parts of the relationship to move with less friction.

Together they form the cornerstones of our ability to react in a healthy way with anyone. it allows us to be us, yet in a caring way

[unicorn2014]

So what is SET?

[waverider]

So what is SET?

Its about not making things worse:

https://bpdfamily.org/2010/09/video-tools-to-reduce-conflict-with.html

[unicorn2014]

Perhaps I should talk about the first impact of my boundary: my partner is not coming to see me this thanksgiving.

[waverider]

Perhaps I should talk about the first impact of my boundary: my partner is not coming to see me this thanksgiving.

A backlash is always the initial reaction to a boundary, their reaction is an attempt to affect you so you will back down. If you stay consistent eventually they realize it is affecting them too, and having no impact on you, so it is pointless action as it is not achieving anything for them.

[unicorn2014]

He is not coming to see me because I did not invite him. I do not want him staying with me until he files his divorce. It was my decision . He actually hasn't acted out at all. The other day he mentioned he might go to a soup kitchen for thanksgiving and I didn't react to that. I had suggested he go to his parents and then when he said no I asked him what he did before he met me. He said he went over to a friends but his wife might be there so he didn't want to go. I think he should turn around and face the music. I deeply resent him for triangulating me however palla said I had a seed of forgiveness in me or else I'd be on the leaving board.

I was reading about SET. That's going to be hard for me.

[waverider]

Practice SET on the little things, and with everyone you meet. It is an everyday tool not just for crisis management, by which time its often to late anyway. You may surprise yourself it gives you a much more rewarding attitude on life.

It allows you to care about people and their problems without taking them on board, it promotes you as an easy to talk to and approachable person. It makes others feel better by simply having spoke to them

[unicorn2014]

Hi waverider, I tried to respond but i timed out so I had to sign out and sign back in.

I know how to do SET, that's not the problem. The problem is I have a huge resentment against my partner for initiating a relationship with me while he was still married, while he was still living with his wife, and not telling me about it. I have a resentment that I fell in love with a married man, unbeknown to me.

Perhaps I should give some background on myself. Prior to meeting my partner I had been in love with another married man, however the prior married man was not going to leave his wife for me. I also never met the previous man. At any rate that's why when my partner's wife introduced herself to me and my partner thought I was going to dump him I didn't, as I had already been infected by the virus that says its ok to be in love with a married man. Had I not been infected by that virus I never would have been in that position in the first place. So on the one hand my painful experience with my partner cured me of that disease, now I deeply resent him for putting me in that position in the first place. He knew how I felt about married men and he knew if I found out he was married I would run in the other direction. It was his plan to have his marriage unwound before I ever found out about it, but things didn't work that way and now three years later there's still no divorce filed in the court.

So, am I capable of sympathy and empathy? Absolutely! Do I want to be sympathetic and empathetic to my partner? Not really.

This latest little drama with his father and his wife didn't help. Perhaps I should start another thread as this one is at 5 pages and I have feeling its going to get closed soon.

[waverider]

So, am I capable of sympathy and empathy? Absolutely! Do I want to be sympathetic and empathetic to my partner? Not really.

SET is use for everyday conversation. It is not an all all encompassing forgiveness thing.

If you were to apply it to your big picture then it would be along thews lines

S=I hear what you are telling me

E=I can see why you are saying what you are

T=It still hurts me and I am struggling to get past it.

It can be a way of communicating you are not happy about something, without it going off topic and making things worse than they need be. The T is about you and how you see or feel something.

The aim is to not feed a defensive cycle. If the door is not open to working to get past it the relationship has no hope of going forward.

[unicorn2014]

Waverider, I understand and there is no current conflict at the moment, but that's because I'm restraining myself. Its about to blow though as I'm getting impatient again. I'm waiting for a card from his dad and depending on what it says when I respond I will ask him to not talk to my partner's wife about me since she already doesn't like me, that's not going to help.

My partner is also waiting for a call back from his wife, and I really do not want to get in the middle of that.

What happened in a nutshell is I sent a card introducing myself and my daughter to his parents and his father called his wife and asked her who I was. My partner tells me his father did that to provoke his wife because he misses her and wants to interact with her.

I was not at all happy his father did that but that was his father's choice, not his, so I'm going to address his father directly. His wife on the other hand complained to him that she thought my action was inappropriate.

I do not know if my partner's wife has been served papers or not. When I ask him he says its not a simple answer. I think that's wrong.

Thank you for the break down of SET for my situation, I will make a note of it, I think it will serve me as every time I try to talk to my partner about it he says he didn't think he was married, if he thought he was married he never would have acted as he did. I don't want to be empathetic to him as I think he lied to me and he even admitted lying to me, because he knew if he told me the truth I wouldn't talk to him. So my problem is I am unwilling to be empathetic to my partner.

[waverider]

So my problem is I am unwilling to be empathetic to my partner.

That is your "T".  The S & E is a way of putting it into context. It is a way of saying you heard him (S) so no need for him to repeat or rehash, you realize he wants you to trust him (E), unfortunately you dont feel as though you do (T)... Its a concise way of framing the problem. It is not in itself and answer to fixing it.

Without the S & E he will get stuck reselling the excuses.

Every resolution starts with a clear statement of the problem, without other issues  being allowed to cloud the issue

[unicorn2014]

Thank you waverider, right now I'm not happy about his response to my question, was your wife served divorce papers. Its a yes or no question. He says its not. That irritates me. The reason I asked is because she called him to tell him that she was not happy I wrote to his parents. That leads me to think she hasn't been served since she still thinks she has a right to tell him she does  not like me or not think my behavior is appropriate .

[formflier]

  He says its not. That irritates me.

Which is probably... .exactly why he does it.

  since she still thinks she has a right to tell him she does  not like me or not think my behavior is appropriate .

And you care what she thinks?

FF

[unicorn2014]

Form flier, are you saying he irritates me on purpose?

You're right , I shouldn't care what she thinks. I guess I need to tell him that since he's the one who told me?

[waverider]

Form flier, are you saying he irritates me on purpose?

More that it keeps you engaged in the drama, your engagement shows in you as irritation. Doesn't really matter what your reaction is, as long as there is one. Anything is better than abandonment

[unicorn2014]

Form flier, are you saying he irritates me on purpose?

More that it keeps you engaged in the drama, your engagement shows in you as irritation. Doesn't really matter what your reaction is, as long as there is one. Anything is better than abandonment

Waverider, I don't know what to say. I'm really irritated by this whole situation. I was thinking about this today. My partner promised me this great life, how he was going to come out to where I live and make things all better. That hasn't happened yet. I'm not going to encourage him to visit me until I see that his divorce has been filed with the court. So now I'm stuck in this situation where I have to listen to him talk about how much he likes me, likes me being with me, how he misses me, how much he doesn't like where he's at, how he misses the things we do together, how he wishes he could be with me, and you know what I feel? Mad at him for starting this whole thing in the first place! When he tells me all those things what I really want to tell him is "you should have never initiated a long distance relationship with me while you were still married in the first place"!

Truth of the matter is if I were to break up with him I wouldn't go out there and look for another relationship. The first thing I'm going to work on when I'm freed up is my career, I had to put that on hold when I took on single parenthood.

My partner promised me this great vision of an intact family and 3 years out he is still living in his state.

When he tells me about all the good times we had together I'm thinking "yeah and that's cause you stayed at my place and participated in my life".

As you can see the resentment is running high on my side of the street, but not high enough to send me over to the leaving board.

I'm hoping by doing work on myself around self compassion from mourning what happened to me as an adolescent that I will be able to move forward. I have a lot of faith in what palla said about the seed of forgiveness being in me and the potential for joy being in my relationship. I want and need to believe that is true, but as you can see I have a lot of things getting in the way of empathy. I'm supposed to have empathy for a man who started a long distance relationship with me before he was divorced? 

[formflier]

I guess I need to tell him that since he's the one who told me?

One thing that you will hear and read on here is that pwBPD traits respond much better to action than they do words.


Many nons make the mistake of believing they have to "explain" their actions so the pwBPD will "put" the actions in the proper place that will show the "non" in a good light.

This is a never-ending task... .one that is best given up

pwBPD will  twist words that are spoken to them (no matter how clear)... .and their view of the non is likely dependent on their emotion of the moment than any words or actions spoken to them.

Unicorn,

Based on that... how do you think you should handle the "irritation on purpose" issue?

FF

[formflier]

Form flier, are you saying he irritates me on purpose?

More that it keeps you engaged in the drama, your engagement shows in you as irritation. Doesn't really matter what your reaction is, as long as there is one. Anything is better than abandonment

So, we'll never know for sure, but I think it is highly unlikely that he is making a conscious choice to irritate you (as in plotting).

It is more like a "reaction" that comes naturally to him when stressed... .or emotions out of whack.  Since he has BPD traits... .that happens quite often.  


There are two lessons that seem to apply.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=66672.0

The above lesson sheds some light on why the nons will respond to irritation... .or "explain" themselves.  Something to think about.

There is also a hint of circular argument to this... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

You irritated me... .no I didn't... .yes you did, when you said xyz that was irritating... .no, no, when I said xyz I meant abc... .why do you hate me... .( and it goes on)

Something to think about... .

FF

[formflier]

Unicorn2014,

I applaud the progress that you have made in looking at yourself, your r/s, and being in touch with what you feel.

Keep up the good work.  I think this thread is just about full.

I would challenge you to start a new thread... .and focus on some of the questions... .issues I pointed out below.  No right or wrong answers... .just things I believe you should think about... .make sure you are comfortable with your answers.

Keep up the hard work!

My partner promised me this great life, how he was going to come out to where I live and make things all better. That hasn't happened yet.

Who should you look to, in order to provide you a "great life"?

So now I'm stuck in this situation where I have to listen to him talk about how much he likes me, likes me being with me, how he misses me, how much he doesn't like where he's at, how he misses the things we do together, how he wishes he could be with me, and you know what I feel?

Why are you stuck here... .what choices do you have?  Do you have choices?

Mad at him for starting this whole thing in the first place! When he tells me all those things what I really want to tell him is "you should have never initiated a long distance relationship with me while you were still married in the first place"!

How do you feel about your role in this?

My partner promised me this great vision of an intact family and 3 years out he is still living in his state.

So, what does this tell you about his words and actions?

I'm supposed to have empathy for a man who started a long distance relationship with me before he was divorced? 

This is tough... .but if you think that empathy and "agreement" or saying something is ok are very different... .then that should help you move forward some.


There is a lot in this post... .I would encourage you to post new threads to work through this.

Keep up the good work!       

FF

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .