First post, looking for a new path

[Iowa32]

Will try to keep this short. Have been talking to a therapist for the past six months or so, and he suggested I read Stop Walking on Eggshells -- surprise, surprise, I have ended up here although I have only read about 1/3 of the book so far.

The latest in a long line of blowup accusations came a few days ago when I wanted to go for a walk around the neighborhood on a delightful Sunday afternoon while our kids were napping. Simply taking a walk is not something I do often (certainly not never though), but as I consider my own mental health more and more, I understand the value of just having some quiet time to think, relax and reflect. Of course, according to my wife, the only reason I wanted to do this was because of the off-chance I would run into another woman in our neighborhood without my wife around. I'll spare you the other "coincidences" that supposedly made this a rational conclusion.

Obviously, I'm not perfect in how I treat her. I originally went to a therapist in an attempt to overcome the frustration and "take the high road." We did couples counseling a few years ago, but it just went back and forth without much progress. My wife did one individual therapy session around that time to address some (significant) trauma from her childhood/past, but has very little interest in doing it again.

Anyways, I'm scheduled to see my therapist again next week, and I hope to dig more into BPD. Overall, I once hoped that I could make improvement for the greater good, but as I discover what I'm up against, my outlook has declined. I was never a big fan of the path we were on, and the thought of getting on a different one seems as difficult as ever.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Learning2Thrive]

Welcome Iowa32,

I’m glad you found us and made your first post.  

I’m sorry for all you’re going through right now. Of course you have the right to get out and go for a walk to clear your mind, relax, stretch your legs, and a whole host of healthy reasons.

What happens if you allow your wife to make the accusation but you do NOT JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend,Explain)?

What if you just tell her your sorry to hear she feels that way because that probably feels pretty terrible, but you need some fresh air and you will be back in “15 -20 minutes” or whatever amount of time is appropriate?

I wonder if itmay be triggering feelings of abandonment in her or feelings of loss of control when you leave, so it’s possible she’s throwing out accusations to gain control of the situation and keep you from leaving.

What do you think?

L2T

[Iowa32]

Thanks for your reply -- particularly appreciative because I realize I didn't actually ask a question.

I have become more skilled at avoiding JADE as I have discovered it rarely leads to a resolution no matter how hard I try. The typical result is I get called out for being "defensive" which is true, I am being defensive, but I also feel I should be able to stand up for myself and the truth. Again, I realize this is not often a successful tactic.

Anyways, if I were to acknowledge her feelings, I presume it would just come back at me that I'm the one causing those feelings in the first place. If I were to then reiterate that I simply want some fresh air and be gone for 15-20 minutes, this would only confirm to her that I am up to no good and have some kind of "meeting" arranged.

What actually happened was I had her come with me (I originally didn't offer this because I'm not totally comfortable leaving our young kids home alone, even if they're asleep at the time). However, the damage had been done and I wouldn't say this was successful either.

I know I can become more skilled with my responses. But going back to my first post, that's the definition of walking on eggshells and I am now realizing what we're really up against to get on a different path. Do I want to spend the foreseeable future carefully crafting my responses and dismissing opportunities to stand up for myself?

[Enabler]

Hey Iowa32,

I wish I could say it was great to see you here but I suppose that’s like saying that to someone at a funeral. That said, every cloud and all. We’ve got some great resources here and you’ll be very glad to hear that your story resonates with a thousand I have heard on the boards and experienced first hand myself.

Thanks for the details so far, you’ve told us a few things like trying marriage counselling (often unsuccessful in cases of BPD), childhood trauma and accusations of infidelity. That’s a great start, but keep the details coming.

I would like to quickly clarify something re the walk. Did you end up leaving the kids home alone sleeping? Do you think you had good reason to be uncomfortable with it ie their age, what if something went wrong etc?

It’s great you are seeing a therapist. I myself see a therapist, I initially went because my wife believed I had anger management problems, however after working with him and finding out about BPD I have replaced that frustration with understanding. I have found that understanding (even the most irrational behaviour and accusations) the disorder has allowed me to stay calm and be far less spun about by my situation. As a by-product I have also gained an enormous understanding of my children’s behaviour, who are naturally very emotional anyway. That has led to an improved relationship and less desire to control situations.

There’s plenty of resources on the right hand side bar and top bar, some great articles which will enhance your knowledge and understanding. This isn’t an overnight thing so you will need patience to make things instinctive.

Enabler

[Iowa32]

We did leave the kids (3yo twins) home sleeping, although by that time their 10-year old brother (my stepson) had returned home. I don't necessarily think anything bad would happen, but if they were to wake up while we were gone, they would wonder where everyone is, maybe wander outside and it's just a habit I don't want to get into.

My wife is a stay at home mom and has, in the past, left them at home sleeping to take a walk or go to the store quick (10-20 minute stuff). Probably not a huge deal, but it's just not something I want to do, so I suppose me making the suggestion to do it would be validation that is OK.

Since you asked, what other details will be helpful? Probably the most significant is that you could make an argument for substance abuse (alcohol) -- not necessarily the frequency, but the behavior it causes sometimes.

Maybe I give myself too much credit, but I don't think the situation is really affecting my self esteem and I have a good grasp of what I need to do from a coping standpoint. That gets me through the here and now, but my concerns are more about the future -- for myself (I will want to take a walk again at some point) and my kids (it's a chaotic environment far too often).

[Radcliff]

We definitely do not want you walking on eggshells.  Doing boundaries well helps with this.  To learn more about boundaries, you might want to visit this page on setting boundaries.  It's great that you realized that you needed to go on a walk and that it was healthy to do so.  One of the most important things I realized when I was first starting with boundaries is that I didn't need to get my wife's consent for a boundary.  My first inclination was to explain my boundary and then defend it with JADE (or give in) if she objected.

Next time you want to go for a walk, try briefly addressing her concerns using the S.E.T. (Support, Empathy, Truth) tool, and then going on the walk and returning in the amount of time you said you'd be gone.  My read on the situation with leaving the kids alone is that your gut said it wasn't OK, but your brain talked you into it in order to keep the peace.  It's common for members to yield on their values to keep the peace, but it's not good.  Three year olds cannot be left alone, even if "supervised" by a 10 year old.

The tools are not about bending yourself and continuing to walk on eggshells.  They are about avoiding unproductive behaviors that can make things worse like “justify, argue, defend, or explain” (JADE), while trying to replace them with more productive behaviors like SET and validation.

Can you tell us more about your situation?  How long have you been married?  It sounds like you've been learning and applying some of the tools.  How long ago did you start learning about BPD?

RC

[Enabler]

Morning Iowa32,

As Radcliff mentioned, I think your gut was telling you something there on leaving the kids at home asleep, and you were able to rationalise it. If in any doubt I would check your national guidance for leaving children alone and use that as a framework. In the UK there is no specific legal age however the guidance is pretty clear without the hard age line in the sand. pwBPD often have problems distinguishing between want and need. Rather than say to themselves "I want to go to the shops but the kids are asleep, so I will have to wait till they get up to go," they may cognitise "I need to the shops now, it cannot wait and the kids will be fine, I have NO other choice."

Regarding drinking, is this something your wife does? Am I correct in understanding that she doesn't drink every day to excess but when she does, something happens? What happens when she drinks?

Enabler

[Iowa32]

Thanks again for taking the time to talk this through -- it's helpful.

My wife and I have been together for 6-7 years and married four. Her son is 10 and our twins are three. The going for a walk situation is just the most recent in a long, long line of situations where something so benign caused such a blowup. I was at a work conference yesterday, and when I was talking about my day, the only thing she was really interested in was who I sat with, who I talked to, etc. because surely in such a large group there was someone I was attracted to more than her. Things like that are just a constant, and she will tell you it's because I'm not hugging, kissing, snuggling, saying I love you enough. And because of her past trauma and fear of abandonment, I need to meet that need for her.

I have only been seriously learning about BPD for the past month or so -- so I'm sure I have a ways to go. Honestly, the suggestion that I set a boundary and go on a walk by myself no matter what she is saying sounds terrifying. I would just be setting myself up to get yelled at. I just read in the Eggshells book that one of my triggers is being unfairly accused, and I should avoid situations that may put me in a spot to have that trigger pulled. So that kind of seems like a catch-22. I certainly understand the importance of boundaries, so that's for sure something I can work on as we move forward.

As far as the alcohol use, it's not every day and she does take "breaks" because she wants to be a physically healthy person and realizes how alcohol is sometimes a barrier to those goals. The behavior it causes is things like staying out until 2, 3, 4 a.m. (when she says she's "just going for an hour or two) waking everybody up when she gets home (sometimes has some kind of accusation for me) and basically setting herself up to be tired and hungover for the next few days. I'm just like -- we have a family to take care of and things to do. I want a partner who is going to be involved instead of laying in bed all day. That makes me a "fun hater." I thought those were the things we did when we're single and in our 20's and you grow out of it. Not what you still do when you're mid-30's and have a family.

Let me know if any other questions -- thanks again!

[Enabler]

Great to hear from you again.

You may find this an interesting read, especially the flow diagrams of how the dynamics work. It's called the emotional cascade model.

https://www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/EMOTIONAL-CASCADES.pdf

Is there a correlation between emotional distress and going out to 3/4/5am... .or is it more spontaneous? i.e. is she going out to get drunk on the back of conflict with you?

I know of some specific members who have struggled with persistent unfounded accusations (I have myself but can't say I ever found healthy way of addressing them). I will try and loop him in.

[Radcliff]

I can relate to the idea of implementing boundaries being scary!  It makes sense to start with small successes.  For example, something that is shorter or closer.  A five minute walk around the block.  Going to the bathroom.  Taking a shower.  Checking on the kids.  Always say how long you are going to be away, and don't make it seem like punishment.  Then you can work to stretch the times and distances.

On the other hand, sometimes it works to just power through it.  For example, a 20 minute walk is a good amount of time to bring you back to baseline physiologically if you are feeling stressed.  There's something called an "extinction burst" where our pwBPD react very strongly to a change in how we're interacting with them.  They can get dramatic and apply a lot of pressure if we don't respond the way they're used to us responding.  Often, when faced with the extinction burst, we reverse course and behave inconsistently.  This just makes things worse the next time we want to change a pattern, because they learn that drama and threats can cause us to reverse course and get back in line.

For a 20 minute walk, you could start with a lot of validation and reassurance, tell her your route, take the walk, and finish with validation and gratitude.

Can you think of something you could try along these lines in the next couple of days and come back to us and let us know how it went?

RC

[Iowa32]

To answer Enabler's question -- no, I haven't noticed a correlation between the late nights and other factors. I think it's just something she enjoys doing, gets caught up in things and eventually decides she doesn't want to come home until the party is over. This doesn't happen as frequently as it used to -- when we were going to counseling a few years ago, it was a 2-3 night per week thing. But it still happens, and telling people (especially your family) you'll be home at one time and then missing that mark by four hours isn't a very respectful habit. She needs time out of the house, which I totally understand, but being unable to consider consequences and reasonable expectations from your family when fulfilling that is what concerns me.

Radcliff -- I could reassure her with the route I'm going to take, but wondering if that is getting into JADE territory. Do I really need to explain the details of a walk around the block? I ask because those words aren't going to suddenly make her believe I wouldn't happen to venture off that route just like me explaining that she can look at my phone won't prove that I'm not talking to other women. Validation and gratitude seem like great places to start and I will look for opportunities to practice those.

P.S. I met with my therapist today and we went over a lot of this. My task is a commitment to boundaries no matter how volatile it might make things in the short term. I'm still learning.

[Radcliff]

Ha, I had a little voice in my head wondering whether explaining the route was a little over the top, so let's go with your gut on that!

My task is a commitment to boundaries no matter how volatile it might make things in the short term. I'm still learning.

Excellent.  We want to communicate and act out our boundaries in a way that's mindful of achieving our aims with the least conflict practicable (we don't want to fan the flames), but minimizing our pwBPD's discomfort is not the primary aim.  We must be able to compassionately tolerate their discomfort if we're going to be successful as independent, healthy humans with boundaries.

Let us know how it goes with your next walk!  We want details ;)

[Iowa32]

UPDATE: Oh man. So a committee I'm involved with at work does different community outreach projects, and I signed up to volunteer after work yesterday. It was about 5-7 p.m. Of course, the majority of other people who joined me were women. I could have guessed that would be the case, although I didn't know exactly who all was going to be involved beforehand.

I did my best setting a boundary and sticking to it -- I am going to be OK with taking two hours to volunteer, and I should be able to do that. From my wife's perspective, I know that's a trigger for her, and if it comes down to volunteering every once in a while or being with her, I will choose volunteering every once in a while over our marriage. She knows having an affair would be a trigger for me, so she chooses our marriage over sleeping with other men. One in the same, right?

I have been trying to validate her feelings, but that turns into "you know I feel this way, but either you don't care or won't do anything about it." I will say I'm not going to participate in these types of discussions, but that turns into "you just walk away because you know you're full of s***." I will say she's allowed to feel how she feels, but I can't control that, but that turns into "yeah you can -- just meet all of my needs."

Anyways, she was BAWLING as I left the house this morning and screaming "F*** You" as our young children looked on. When I got to work, she called to yell at me some more and back me into a corner to admit I would choose to volunteer at places other women would be over our marriage. She threatened to get all dressed up this weekend and go get hit on by other guys to see how it would make me feel. I said if that's what you want to do, I'm not going to be able to stop you... .did I mention she's routinely at the bars until 2 a.m.?

I feel like I stuck to the boundaries pretty good. I avoided JADE as much as I could. But it was hard, man. Seeing someone so upset at me is very difficult, but giving in has not been a great strategy in the past. Hopefully this gets easier as I refine my skills.

[Enabler]

Hey Iowa32,

Blimmey, how on earth does one even start to address that kind of logic? I could just about understand how she could put hanging out in bars with men until 2am in the same basket as volunteering with some women... .since the comparison could be that you're both spending time with members of the opposite sex... .But having an affair/encouraging men to hit on her vs volunteering?

Your approach seems in line with the tools. I suppose the question is, what will you do if she has an affair, or even gets dolled up, hangs out in bars attempting to attract attention? The point here is about boundaries... .

I am going to do voluntary work that may involve women - This is telling her what you are doing
If you do voluntary work, I will go to bars on the weekend and pull men -  Her BOUNDARY (however messed up)

What is your boundary? What will you do in response to her overstepping your 'line'?

Hope I'm looking at this correctly.

Enabler

[Iowa32]

Hey Iowa32,

Blimmey, how on earth does one even start to address that kind of logic?

Enabler

Haha, well even I know logic is not an appropriate expectation here. That's kind of what BPD is, right? And why this has been such a struggle -- I am naturally a very logical and cynical person.

The threat to get dolled up and get hit on by guys was just an attempt to get a reaction and try to hurt me. Nothing new. But yes, perhaps she thinks of that as the same behavior as a volunteer project (which I invited her to join). I should clarify, the threat involved going to the bars in a nearby college town. Typically, she goes to the bars in her small hometown, so I shouldn't feel threatened because everyone she hangs out with are losers (her words... .OK, maybe mine too). I don't feel threatened, I simply think routinely staying out until the wee hours of the morning isn't a good habit considering we have children to set an example for, a family to take care of and things to do the next day.

So what will I do when the "line" gets trampled on? That's the big question -- I can get more skilled at defusing these situations and taking care of myself, but eventually the limits will be pushed. One option is leaving the relationship, but obviously that is very complicated. So I don't have an answer.