My exBPD lover sent me an article about not brushing off women as "crazy"

[Diana82]

I thought this might be better suited to this thread... .

My exBPD lover whom I have been having an argument with for 3 weeks now (after she lashed out at me with accusations)- sent me this article last night via text. And it basically says that you shouldn't brush off women (in particular exes) as crazy or say they are "too sensitive" or "too defensive". And that it is "emotionally abuse"  to invalidate their feelings and concerns and all too easy to say they are crazy.

She said to me via text:  "A friend posted this article on Facebook. Interesting timing I guess".

www.m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4259779


I replied and said "Is this meant for me?  it's aimed at an ex who has invalidated your feelings and brushed u off as crazy. I don't think you are crazy and you have a right to feel whatever you feel".

And she replied saying:  "Ha! Sorry but I have never been made to feel this way. Look, you're obviously very intelligent and understand the power of words and how to use them. The fact that I keep buying into this saga is actually driving me a bit loopy!"



I don't even understand what that means. She is calling our argument a "saga". I replied by telling her to maybe send it to someone else who thinks she is "loopy" or "crazy" as this is not something I have called her.  Could this be projection?

I'm confused. Again.

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[MaybeSo]

Huh, interesting article.

well, DO you think your ex is crazy?

Since this is a board specifically for partners of people with a mental illness called BPD, I will assume you suspect your ex has BPD or BPD like behaviors to some degree?

how we talk and interact says a lot about how we think or feel about a person, and a sensitive person can pick up on that feeling context pretty easily...

Perhaps she senses you think she is crazy, or that you hold that opinion of her in some capacity, whether it was formally stated or not?

and, she may wonder about it herself, too... "am I crazy?"

since you are on a board designed to support people in relationship with a partner who is mentally ill... .her 'sense' that you might think  or suspect she's crazy or mentally ill might be at least in part, be accurate?

no?

emotional validation is a good way to avoid lengthy, unproductive arguments.

you say she is your ex, but are you wanting to stay?

[Grey Kitty]

My suggestion is don't try so hard to make what she says make sense. Especially when it is about what you are feeling or thinking.

I'd mostly try to notice how she is feeling that she would say/txt something like that... .and believe that she really really is having those feelings, at that time. (Different feelings may follow later.)

If the rest of what she says (besides her feelings) doesn't fit your reality, let it go.

[Diana82]

Thanks for your comments.

I think she is BPD but not a crazy.

I think she may likely have mental issues so I have never called her crazy. I've thought her behaviour was "nuts" and nonsensical. But I realise now she likely has a disorder.

So to send me a link like that with no explanation really... is strange.

It's like she is inviting more questions... but then gets angry when I do respond.

Do you think the article is her way of telling me she has mental issues?

And that I shouldn't think of her as crazy?

[Diana82]

Update... .

so i asked her why she sent it to me...

she said. "You shouldnt label women as crazy just because you want them to behave in the way you deem appropriate. It was explaining why it is so patronising. It was a pretty simple article I thought."

Thing is... her behaviour isn't normal. And she doesn't seem to have any insights into it.

I've never called her crazy to her face or anything. I have only told her I was hurt and scared after her outburst at me.

This feels like projection. Like she knows she's crazy but she's blaming me for "labelling" her crazy! Which I never did.

Do u think its best to ignore? This could go on forever

[Surnia]

On the Staying board I think the best way is validate her - Yes, it sucks to feel labeled as crazy.

Its not about what you did or not did, its about how she feels.

[Diana82]

... so I asked her when have I labelled her as crazy and she said:

"You dont have to because apparently everyone who knows me does it already.

Im really bored of this.  What do I have to admit to or say to make u stop texting me every day?"

Wow. Is this victim playing here?

And I don't text her every day.

[Diana82]

It sure sounds like she is playing the victim or being self destructive. 

Everyone thinks she is crazy... so she sends me an article to not label her crazy? Hmm.

Is it attention seeking?

And she's being quite rude too by saying what can she say to make me stop texting her everyday. And I merely respond to her texts when she says things that invite responses.

I'm thinking the best way to handle this is to not respond. She sounds like she's in a bad mood again... .?

[Diana82]

I feel that I need to set boundaries now.

I feel almost emotionally abused now. She keeps sending me self destructive texts saying she feels terrible and I make her feel awful. And I'm not uncaring and she knows that.

So she invites a response and then goes crazy when I respond and ask for clarification.

Do you think this message is rude to say in response?

Please stop sending me self destructive texts that invite a response. I'm not uncaring & I've been respectful to you from the start. So, please respect me & don't blame me for your bad feelings that stem from others.

[pecia]

I am sorry you are experiencing this trouble. With my husband, I would call this baiting. She was looking to provoke a response in you. Anything to justify her feelings that she thinks you see her as crazy. Don't JADE. It just gives them ammunition. Acknowledge her feelings without agreeing with them. My BPDh and I have really fought hard to accept that we are allowed our feelings. No one can tell you how to feel. It is hard and takes a lot of practice. If she is your ex, why even respond and engage in circular arguments? It will not solve anything and it won't stop until you validate her. I wish you luck. This is a hard disorder to deal with. - pecia

[Diana82]

Thanks percia.

I have heard of baiting and it does sound like it.

Why send me the article otherwise? And then when I ask her to tell me when I have labelled her a "crazy", she then plays the victim!

Apparently EVERYONE thinks she is crazy now.

I feel like my caring nature is being taken advantage of.

I guess I should just stop responding. It seems she just can't be civil or say anything nice to me without a little insult or such.

And it seems she wants me to respond but then if I don't respond in the way she likes, I get abused.

[Grey Kitty]

Have you read this workshop?

How to stop circular arguments

I think this describes the situation you are in very well.

I'd also add that emotionally charged issues are much harder to resolve when you remove non-verbal communications. So face to face is best. Voice is next best. Email isn't very good, although it can help sometimes. Text messages are worst.

Validation is very helpful. I'd make sure you aren't doing anything invalidating before stepping up the validation a notch: One little bit of invalidation can completely undo a ton of validation with a pwBPD.

Not JADE'ing (mentioned in the workshop at the top), not Justifying, Arguing, Defending, or Explaining is a huge step, because any of those are both natural things we want to do, and completely invalidating.

Hang in there!

 GK

[Diana82]

Thanks for the link. I will definitely read this!

I feel like she is a child throwing tantrums who may need to be told off.

I drafted thus response:

Please stop sending me these self destructive messages that bait a response. I used to enjoy talking to you. But I've had enough of being made to feel bad over things that others have done to you. If you can't be pleasant to me, I don't wish to hear from you again. Send your article & messages to someone else.


Obviously this is harsh. But I feel boundaries need to be put in.

For the past 3 weeks, I have been absused over text and belittled and made to feel awful over things I never did to her.

Then she sends me an article and plays the victim and sends more bitter messages if I don't get her. And then tells me she doesn't want me to text her every day.

Silence could be golden... do you think?

[Grey Kitty]

You can send the message however I wouldn't expect it to stop the abusive txts and maintain the friendship. My guess is that it will continue to fuel more angry txts sooner or later. I also don't put up boundaries that way.

A boundary you enforce is in the form of "If you do X, I will do Y".

A rule is in the form of "Please stop doing X"

If you make a rule, she gets to decide whether to follow or break the rule. You don't have any power over it.

If you enforce a boundary, you prevent the action from harming you by taking your own decisive action. She has no power to stop you from enforcing the boundary; you are completely able to take actions to protect yourself. She simply gets to choose whether to trigger enforcement of your boundary.

Yes, we have a workshop on that too

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

In this case, if you are getting abusive txts, think about a way you could enforce that boundary. Some choices include:

• reply saying "I do not wish to discuss this by txt"



• delete them without reading them



• block her phone number from sending you txts



• do one of these things for a fixed period of time.

[Diana82]

Well I sent the message.

I ended by telling her that I used to enjoy talking to her but I'm tired of being made to feel bad for the way others have treated her. And that she can focus her bitterness on someone else. I also told her to not send me such self destructive messages expecting a reply and then get annoyed when I do reply.

I feel bad in a way because I'm not a mean person. I know she is very sensitive and may be very torn up by that.

But I can't handle her. It seems the nicer I am- the more vindictive she is. Perhaps me being assertive will help.  Or she may never reply.

[Diana82]

I forgot to mention...

When I asked her why she sent me the article... she also said "*sigh* the only problem I have is the complete lack of will power when trying to ignore you"



My immediate thought was- what a bhit!

And she then went on to say how the article is easy to understand.

Is it common for BPDs to send you messages to provoke a response in you or confuse you... and then when you reply asking them to clarify- they brush u off and act like you're a pest?

[123Phoebe]

When I asked her why she sent me the article... she also said "*sigh* the only problem I have is the complete lack of will power when trying to ignore you"

When I started getting deeper into the issues I was having with my pwBPD, it helped to flip things around.  Surprisingly I found that we weren't all that much different in times of stress which has really helped me to empathize.

Is it possible that you lack willpower when it comes to ignoring her at times?

[Diana82]

Hey there

Good question... .

Yes, I lack will power when it comes to ignoring her too.     It's almost as if she mirrors my thoughts. Perhaps we are similar in that we are both trying to ignore each other but can't.

The reason I can't ignore her- is that I care about her. I still have feelings for her.  And whenever she has been upset, although it's irrational and nonsensical, it's made me feel sad. Perhaps I am a weak personality, I'm not sure.

But I have been on the receiving end of abuse and lash outs for the past 3 weeks.

This drama started because I had asked her why she avoided me before I went overseas and then told me she misses me.

I had felt rejected by her as we had been dating, and we had an argument (yet we made up) but she didn't want to see me anymore. She kept making excuses to avoid me and I then went to Europe on a holiday. And when I returned, she suddenly wasn't flakey and said she missed me.  I was confused and asked her why she had avoided me so much and didn't want to see me at all for weeks before I went to Europe. I had been upset at her avoidance.

And she went off at me. Lashed out with an accusation I called her something I didn't...  

And a week later I rang her to apologised and she lashed out again saying I insult her regularly.

So since I came back home- she has missed me and then seems to hate me!  And now we are in this terrible drama and I can't make sense of it.  I do feel bad sending her that message telling her off... but I can't take the abuse anymore.

[Diana82]

What I dislike the most about her sending me that article, is the way she said everyone she knows apparently labels her 'crazy', so I must as well. And how she told me it's 'patronising'... yet her messages to me are patronising.

So she plays the victim again... comparing me to everyone else. Feeling sorry for herself...

And it is baiting to send me these self destructive messages and then get annoyed at me when I respond in a way that she doesn't like isn't it?

I think she expected me to respond in a soothing way by saying "you're not crazy... I think you're amazing"  or something.  I guess that's her need for validation? 

But instead, I asked her to clarify why she sent me this article and asked her when exactly I labelled her 'crazy'. 

She didn't like that answer and shut me down by saying "What do i need to say or admit to to make you stop texting me everyday?"

[Diana82]

Why does it feel so bad to have sent her that message? :'(

I know that she probably is upset. If she got upset over nothing earlier... imagine what a message like that would do!

I guess she may either never reply or apologise again.

[LaSuede]

Been there, done that, know it.

You are stuck at the moment.

Take a step aside, out of the boxing ring.

To me it seems like you try to prove something, meanwhile you want something.

Ask yourself why?

Ask yourself, can you really prove her wrong at the moment?

Why do you need to? What is it you believe to gain? Will you gain it, really?

What exactly is it that you want?

Can she provides you with it, really?

What is it inside of you that you can change, not to end up here?

I am confused by one thing: is she your ex or not... ?

I have started to say as follow to my ex, on occasions:

"I understand you have this perspective/thought/feeling.

You are allowed to see things/think/feel whatever you see/think/feel."

You do not need to tell her you disagree even, or your boundaries. You just put them (Don't read, answer or else). Once recently I said:" since apparently you do not want to talk about NNN (our son), as you said I shut my phone off now. Goodnight."

That after him being very abusive and threatening, in text, but first luring me in with "wanting to know about our son".

I must say after using the mantra: "cool, smart (protecting me) - and loving/validate". I feel better than when constantly justify etc.

And the most important is how you feel. Not what you say or do not say.

Sometimes you might need to write in anger or disappointment... .I have.

Still I have not felt as good as when being: cool, smart, "loving".

Be careful with yourself!

[Diana82]

Hi

She is an ex. We dated for only 2 months back in August.

It was an intense affair. And she then avoided me before I went overseas on holiday.

I was upset as I'd started to really like her. I'd fallen for her.

But I figured she was no longer interested. We had friendly chats while I was in holiday though and I just assumed we would be friends.

But when I got home... I was surprised at her "I miss you" message after she'd avoided me so long.

I thought she was playing me.

So I questioned her over it and I did not expect the lash out to follow. I knew she had issues but didn't know about her rage.

So the past 3 weeks, I've felt so confused and rather abused. She did apologise but then told me that I make her act defensively and have a "knack" for finding her insecurities.

She was essentially blaming me for why she lashed out in rage.

I just wanted to be peaceful. And when I said I would leave things be- she sent a message saying "I know you didn't mean to attack me".

And that made me feel angry- as I wasn't the one who attacked her. So I responded. When I really should have ignored it.

I feel she sends these kinds of messages to provoke a response in me. It's like she wants me to get mad and confused at her. But then gets angry and "bored" when I ask what's going on.

[DreamFlyer99]

I think if we're able to look at the reasons for a pwBPD's actions, like their deeply held belief that they aren't somebody people want to know, that people are just gonna abandon them eventually, and their view of self is unstable, it's a bit easier to make sense of their behavior. i know with my husband it often seems he's saying something to get a response, checking to see if i'll still love him no matter what. i'm trying to learn how much in terms of my boundaries is done by my actions rather than my words, and i've learned the hard way how texting does not work for these "discussions."

There's a great workshop called "Tools: Being Assertive in a Healthy Way (DBT skill)" that would be a communication skill to learn since it helps us avoid things that can trigger a pwBPD. The more we can understand about what it's like to be in their brain and see things from their end, the more it all makes sense. Then we can learn how to do our best for the relationship. Go to Workshops and select that title, i think it would be interesting for you to read.  

And i'm wondering too, are you thinking about getting back into the relationship?

[Diana82]

Hi Dreamflyer

Well, I do miss her. When she told me she missed me recently- my heart fluttered. :'(

And she (in between her rages) told me "it's perfectly normal to miss someone you haven't seen for ages. I have missed going to dinner/theatres/movies with you and wanted to float the diea I missed you- to see if you felt the same"


I kept wondering why she just didn't say this to begin with... rather than rage and hurl abuse to me!

I just feel awful sending her that message telling her to 'focus her bitterness elsewhere'.  :'(

I didn't want to be on bad terms with her... but yesterday I got so sick of the abuse and the bad treatment. It seems the nicer I am, the more horrible she is.

She just can't apologise without throwing in an accusation that is untrue. I suppose she really pushed me to my limit yesterday.  Now I have been met with silence... .

Do you think in a few days I should contact her calmly? I feel like saying "I'm sorry that seemed harsh but I just can't keep having you send me these messages and then when I ask what they are about, you throw abuse my way. It's not fair and you need to respect me otherwise I can't be friends with you... ."

[Diana82]

I read this from a BPD blog today...

Validation is extremely important for everyone, but especially so for someone with Borderline Personality Disorder. One problem we often have is feeling perpetually misunderstood because we are constantly invalidated.  When you are constantly and consistently told that you are: overreacting, acting like a child, blowing something out of proportion, not thinking clearly, that you should ‘act like an adult’, suck it up, crying doesn’t help, being upset accomplishes nothing…. It completely inhibits the potential for constructive communication and progress because you are shutting the person down.


... .could it be that I just shut down my this girl with my text message?   

She was looking for validation that she wasn't crazy... because everyone else apparently thinks she is. And she sent me the article in hope I would validate her? 

She told me that it's 'so patronising' to label women crazy just because they behave in a way we deem inappropriate. Or was she trying to teach me a lesson by saying that I better not call her crazy too?

Feels like now I have invalidated her by asking her to stop sending me the self destructive messages.

[MaybeSo]

Emotional validation is a very helpful tool. It focuses on understanding a persons feelings or their felt experience. it has nothing to do with whose wrong or whose right. my felt "feeling" is true for me, yours is true for you. I don't have to agree with you to understand how you are feeling. everyone's feelings make sense to them according to their experiences, perceptions etc.

you ex seems uncomfortable with a feeling she has that you and others consider her crazy or nuts. this makes sense, it is painful, frightening, shame provoking to be thought of as nuts or crazy. the article supported her position, that it's not fair to right off women as nuts just because they may have different feelings or perceptions... .the article is not touching on relationships where a partner actually does have serious perceptual or cognitive distortions, the author is speaking more generally about a tendency for men to refer to any difficult relationship issue as being the fault of the woman with the casual explanation that any non conforming woman is just psycho, without any self reflection about what he brings to the table. it's not an article about BPD but I can see why this article  would feel supportive if I did have BPD... .because it's suggesting it's not fair to just dump someone who views the world differently than you. Abandonment fears are huge for pwBPD so I can see why this article feels supportive to her, and why she might want to send it to a lover she fears losing whom she has been arguing with. People with BPD get left a lot because they frustrate and wear people out. they have a real disorder, it doesn't just get corrected by us scolding or arguing with them. it's a very real, complicated disorder.

Learning skills to cope with this disorder is a huge amount of work and a huge commitment. she is not going to change.

that's why several posters are asking what your intentions are, staying or something else? Staying is a big decision. This sounds like a fairly new relationship, you are in a good position to evaluate what you really want to do right now. being in a r/s with someone with BPD is a lot of hard work.

[Diana82]

Thanks Maybeso...

I do understand why she might feel uspet and frightened that everyone in her life might think of her as 'nuts'.  Especially if she has always had her emotions invalidated.

Thing is... I initially told her (when she sent this article) that I don't think she is crazy and this is aimed at someone who has invalidated her feelings. And then when I asked her why she specifically sent it to me- she then became hostile.

I never dumped her either. She avoided me... and I came back after my holiday to Europe and we got into this huge drama. Just because I asked her why she had avoided me!

I don't even understand what the past 3 weeks was!   

My friends say she was trying to make me feel bad by sending it to me... and has an insatiable need for attention.

Do you think that someone with BPD would be destroyed after I sent that text message telling them to stop sending me self destructive messages and focus their bitterness elsewhere?

I just got tired of being the focus of her hurt.

[Diana82]

she hasn't replied and it's been 2 days.  I am guessing she is hurt by my message...

I kind of feel like following it up with a message saying I didn't mean to sound harsh but I'm just really hurt and confused by her accusations and insulting messages the past few weeks- that it took its toll.  Good idea?

But considering her last couple of messages said "I'm trying to find the willpower to ignore you"  and "what do I have to say or admit to, to make you stop texting me everyday?"

[123Phoebe]

she hasn't replied and it's been 2 days.  I am guessing she is hurt by my message...

Hi Diana,

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions about her reason for not replying.  If you give it a few, it all might come out in the wash.

Think you can let this one go for now and wait & see?

In the meantime, hone up on some of the communication tools available here in the Lessons?  That is if you want to remain in this relationship... .

[MaybeSo]

Honestly?

Everything you are conveying sounds like standard untreated BPD symptoms. it has nothing to do with logic. her feelings are strong and very changeable ... .if you expect her to behave logically or within a frame of ordinary relationship expectations... you will feel intensely hurt and frustrated a lot.

BPD is about lack of core self, mood instability, impulsivity, black/white thinking, and even some dissociative or paranoid features. it's pretty intense.

if she were diagnosed schizophrenic, and told you plants were growing in her head, would you argue about it? likely you would attribute her bizarre perception to her mental illness, and not take it too personally if she said bizarre things about you, too.

BPD looks more close to normal than psychosis, but it's that "borderline" and the fact that relationships trigger their worst symptoms... that tends to make us feel very reactive and defensive.

you have to depersonalize as much as possible if you plan to relate with this person.

don't get too caught up in whatever the story du jur is; it will just change anyway.

she has the exact same symptoms and difficulties with anyone she gets close to, it's not particular to you at all. it feels incredibly personal because it's so frustratingly off the charts, but it's really not personal to you at all. it's how the disorder behaves.

it sounds like both of you needed a break from this anyway... .let it go for now... .enjoy the peace.