Had an interesting conversation with counselor in a group

[somuchlove]

It was one of the head people with a person in the Mental Health Assoc. that works with people that do family to family, and various behavior issues.  This person appeared to be very familiar with BPD.  Except he suggested when the subject came up about how to talk with your person you think has BPD that you send them the information about it, they have a folder, and let them read and see if they notice they feel this way. Then they may decide it is a relief to realize the are not alone and possible seek help.     WHAT DO YOU THINK?

There is also video's on You Tube that BPD people have made.  Those people on there are thankful for seeing.  Made them realize that others feel the same way and seek help.  From what I have read and gathered on here, they have to be open to this.  AGain it is just so hard to stand by and watch her life be so horrible when it doesn't have to be.  Are we into BPD so much that we don't take the bull by the horns and just tell them.  I am just in one of those moods.       So thankful for this site.      to you all. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[mary290]

Hi somuchlove, I am really struggling with this same dilemma.  My d22 does not know she has BPD.  She has never been officially dx'd but she does admit to having depression.  She is in T for that.  I do not know who her therapist is or anything about him.  We are currently estranged so we know very little right now.

In Valerie Porr's book (overcoming BPD for families) she does talk about how understandable it is for parents (or other loved ones), once they discover BPD, to want to tell the person in their life that this is what their problem is so they can seek help and finally understand what their problem has been all these years.  It seems to make sense and I know I feel that way.  She goes on to say that this is NOT a good idea.  I am still reading the book so I do not know exactly how the BPD person is supposed to be made aware but I guess they need to figure it out themselves?

I am new here so I am not in a position to be dispensing advice but I am curious to see how this thread goes.  Also, i have 'liked' a people with BPD fb group and the folks posting on that sure do seem grateful that they have a diagnosis and the support of others in their shoes.  i do know the subject, if ever broached, has to be done so in the right way at the right time.  I still have so much to learn... .  

Mary

[momontherun]

I think a lot of it depends on the individual person, the timing and how much they are involved in trying to get a handle on themselves.

In my case, it was discussed openly without her presence then when she was around we would go over the criteria but not actually putting a name to it. One Pdoc suggested bi-polar which she absolutely rejected. So we left it nameless however in the last 5 months of her hospitalizations and going to rtc she is trying really hard to follow her goals, does daily worksheets (on her insistence as they help). She see's she is different than the other girls and has been really confused trying to keep her perceptions straight without her emotions changing them on her. Her T see's how I now talk with her and says we have a handle on our communication but its only thanks to applying what I have read and practicing on everyone around me in person: listen, empathize, validate what she is displaying (won't/can't actually name the emotion and thats ok) and ask questions to clear up any confusion on my part, ask how can we reframe this, think about it differently or what can do then give her praise for being so strong/recognition etc. I still need alot of practice as right now I have to think about the steps with a cheat sheet.

Anyways, at her first dbt class she was given a sheet with the 9 criteria and recognized how she met all areas and says she does feel relieved to know others recognize what she is going through so she can learn how to control it better.  When she went over it she was elated just having her rage and latest si 4 days prior. I know right after an si she is elated for ~ a week and becomes really intuitive an full of confidence during this time then something triggers her an she breaks again for ~ a week so we will see.

[somuchlove]

Thanks for you r reply.  Was she in the hospital or had there been something that occurred for you to start the discussion.

I agree it has to be all in the timing if brought up, at all.  I really feel my dd would be relieved to " kind of come out of the closet" shall we say.  She does tell me that she had panic attach, that she had to go to the ER because she couldn't breath.  She once said if she could just do something or take something that would just calm her nervous.  However,  when the idea of counseling to help her bf and her work through issues about his son, she doesn't want to go.  Says he won't listen.  Counselors won't help. 

I think sometimes we get caught in timing when things are bad and that is not the time.  Yet, hate to rock the boat when things seem ok.  I know my dd has feelings that things are not ok with her.  Her brain just won't the logic that some of us have, to know we need to seek some help. 

I can see how learning to talk the way they teach us will help.  I am like some on here .  I just need it written in front of me.  My mind just turns to mush when I am talking to her. 

[suchsadness]

Hello somuchlove   

I struggled with the same thing... .  knowing that my uBPD35 was dealing with BPD and she didn't.  I knew that if I told her she would explode and hold it against me that I thought she was mentally ill.  On the other hand, I felt bad that I knew and wasn't sharing it with her because maybe she could get some help.  So I have educated myself and worked on changing my approach and acceptance.  It was hard and many times I wanted to talk to her about it... .  but couldn't.  Then one day when things were going very bad for her, she sent me that video from You Tube and said... .  "this is me".  I cried and cried, some tears of relief that she knew... .  some tears that she felt that this was all she was.  It is never an easy decision when you have to decide to talk to your child about this, but I think you will know in your own heart what will be in everyone's best interest.  My decision was based on her history of rejection of me and my advice/knowledge.  Good luck, and be sure to take care of yourself in all of this!

[somuchlove]

suchsadness  

How is your dd doing now that she has realized the video was her?  :)id you suggest to watch the video or do you think she knew something was not right and searched for it?  

[momontherun]

  Was she in the hospital or had there been something that occurred for you to start the discussion.

DD15 is in rtc - All this just happened over the phone on Wednesday:

Me- How is everything going?

DD15: I am doing so much better than last week - I feel really happy for some reason.

Me: oh yeah? That's wonderful! You sound much happier. Its good to hear your showing what you feel you must be proud of yourself

DD15: Definitely! I think it helps they finally know whats wrong with me well not whats wrong with me - there is nothing wrong with me but they understand how I feel.

Me: Thank you for catching yourself - no wonder your in such a great mood. You are making progress by leaps and bounds! What do you mean they fially understand what your going through?

DD15: well I started a new group called DBT

Me: How's that going?

DD15: well we only had one so far and the counselor asked us if we knew what BPD is- I had no clue so I asked then she gave us a hand out explaining it. When I read it, it was all about me- exactly everything I am going through!

Me: I hear how relieved and excited you are however BPD is very controversial especially in one so young as your still developing your personality after all thats what the teen years is mainly about. how do you know that's exactly what it is?

DD15: Mo-o-om your testing me aren't you?

Me: Not at all I am just trying to figure this out. It has been mention before about the possibility - how do you know its not bi-polar like it has been suggested before?

DD15: I latch onto people really fast putting them up on a pedestal not caring if they are good or bad for me its like they cannot do any wrong ever though I know some things are bad and I don't want to be around just the feeling is so strong like I'd die without them then I get really scared they are going to leave or hate me then I get frustrated cuz I am so scared so I make them go away before they make me go away only to replace them as fast as I can to fill the emptiness. Its like I cannot ever say no or I am bad. So I steal to feel something but that hardly works so I go back to cutting - that always works but I know its wrong so I feel worse so I tried smoking the pot you found and I know that's bad - its like I cannot be happy unless someone else is with me. So see, I fit all 9 areas not just 5 to be dx so its definitely this.

Me: Wow! That is a pretty intense observation of yourself and very hard to dispute. The problem is medicaid nor any insurance will recognize personality disorders so while we can honestly say that's what it is, identify it and get the treatment that is working for you for insurance purposes it will be called something else like bi-polar. So what do you think of DBT?

DD15: Well we haven't really started and I don't know what to expect

Me: Well from my understanding of it is the brain is separated into 3 parts: 1 part that's all logic and reason so its called logical or reasonable mind which leads to your decision making, another part is called the emotional mind and that's where emotions rule - when this part takes over it leads to your si. However with DBT, there is a 3rd part to bridge these two together and its called Wise Mind where logic and emotions can exist together.

T: You should run our DBT class - you know so much about it

Me: oh no I am just learning and getting ready to start my own class so we can be on the same page and have a healthier future.

DD15: Mom, you are the best doing all this for me Thank you!

T: Well that's it for our session as usual I have to run - you guys want to continue talking about this? Don't worry you can still call your mom tomorrow for your personal time. Mom, you have time?

Me: absolutely!

When we continued our conversation it was all about how most of the girls there are in foster care and the ones that aren't their parents aren't as involved or trying etc. - had to clear that up for her before my pedestal got too high

[somuchlove]

momontherun  I am so happy for you that you have been able to engage in such a good conversation with you dd.  You did a nice job of validating, ( like I really understand it totally)   I think my dd would be so relieved to get help and understand.  Just hope that she won't go through her whole life not knowing and living in the world she is in right now.

[momontherun]

Thanks somuchlove - I am trying ... .  most of our conversations are like this as long as I remember (or look at) the steps to follow - be truly open an honest. I hope I am still able to do it when she comes back home - having our distance as well as, the outline is helping her really hear what I have to say instead of assuming- shutting me out and be open to all of it - really try.  Like I said, time will tell whether this was the right decision or not as her perceptions change so frequently.

[vivekananda]

MotR - wonderful news there! So good to hear. I hope it continues to get better - but we all know to expect that one step back don't we... .  then forward again!

somuchlove - I tried to suggest DBT for my dd. When she learnt that it was used for BPD she hit the roof and this was critical in her decision not to speak to me for about 11 mths. At the moment she is n/c again... .  

She has sought therapeutic help and has been given the diagnosis PTSD. This has helped her - but her visits to the therapist are irrelgular and infrequent. So there is no long term hope there - at the moment.

dd is 32. She wants to blame others for her situation. So, it's really all my fault, so she thinks. The diagnosis of PTSD reinfroces this - she claims she has been victim of a lifetime of emotional and physical abuse.

With adult children, I think we need to tread very carefully. I am coming to think that the only thing we as parents of adult children can do, is to work on developing our relationship with our kids. Usually our relationships are very fractured, I think that should be our focus - just work on our relationship. If our relationship is strong and stable, then perhaps we can say the words BPD... .  Maybe for younger ones, say up to 25yrs, it can be different. For under 18, parents are still legally responsible. But ultimately it doesn't matter what it's called as long as they get the right therapy to help them realise their potential. No? Yes?

cheers,

viv   

[suchsadness]

Hi again somuchlove   

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond but I haven't had a chance to visit the site in a while.  You asked me how my dd35 is doing now and if I suggested that she watch the You Tube video... .  well, she seems to be doing better but she won't discuss the BPD with me.  We have limited contact, mostly when she wants to have it.  I didn't suggest that she watch it, she suggested that I watch it.  I too wondered how she came to this and if someone suggested it to her.  I know she was going to some therapy sessions with her ex and their son who is having some emotional issues (I am truly suspect that he too may have BPD), and I think the therapist may have talked about family history and she tied it to that.  I'm not allowed (per dd35) to ask about any of this and I tred lightly when she brings things up.  I did ask if she is getting any help - and she said she is without health insurance and according to all the information she has read, it doesn't help "people like me anyway"... .  right now she has lost weight and looks very beautiful and seems to be more positive than I've seen (only pictures because we live so far away from each other) her in a very long time.  Maybe knowing what is going on with her has lifted a weight off her shoulders - and that alone would be a wonderful thing.   

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

hi suchsadness,

It is all so sad, but I am glad your dd is looking better and hope that this is an indication that things are improving for her. I do think that our relationship with our children is so central to them being healthy though. I think it is important to be able to work on improving our relationship with them.

did you ever try the 'sorry letter' a la Valerie Porr?

Vivek    

[jellibeans]

My dd was only recently told by her therapist that she is BPD... .  she asked me why people keep telling her she is BPD and I told her they are not sure but that she shows some signs. That her personality is still forming so it is hard to say but a place to start. I am not sure it was right to tell her but she has not responded angrily and I think it is just something she keeps at the back of her head.

momontherun... .  what a great conversation with your daughter... .  made me cry... .  I have to get off this site today because I am crying after every post I read but it is tears of happiness... .  

[vivekananda]

take care jellibeans 1962, tread gently,

love to you,

Vivek    

[momontherun]

jellibeans - she is thinking about it ... .  that's good perhaps she can identify some aspects within herself? I don't think the relationship with my dd15 would be doing so well without the support and guidance from this message board. Take some time for yourself and breathe. This too shall pass.   

[suchsadness]

Hi Vivek ,

Like I said in my earlier post... .  it's been a while since I have been on the site and when you asked about the sorry letter I had to go back and read through my own posts to remember what I said about the letter.  I haven't done the letter yet but I have told her that I am sorry for anything that I have done to cause her pain.  I always buy her boys special treats for holidays and I picked up their valentine treats this weekend... .  I also bought her a box of candy and a sentimental card.  I actually was thinking of writing a letter to her with this - and hopefully I will be able to find the right thing to say, starting with how beautiful she is inside and out.  I would like to tell her that I can see where I made mistakes that impacted her and I am sorry.  I just feel like if I say anything that is trying to explain the mistakes or where our differences were - then she will say I am trying to defend myself.  I really don't want that, I only want her to know that I am sorry for my part in her pain and sadness.   I need to go back to the book and get some help with wording it... .  she can take things and twist them, and then we end up in a worse place than where we started.  I guess it goes back to the walking on eggshells state.  Maybe I just need to be short and sweet, and just say what I said here... .  I can see that I made mistakes and I am sorry.

[vivekananda]

Hi suchsadness,

My sorry leter was very short. I based it on Porr's example in her book. I recommend you read that part of the book carefully and base your letter on that. See, we can so easily say something that can be judgemental without even realising it.

My letter was:

Dear d,

I never understood how you could have so much pain. I knew you were sensitive but I falied to understand exactly how that felt for you.

I know I must have said and done things that hurt you because I did not properly understand. It was never my intention to cause you pain. I am so sorry.

What can I do now to improve our relationship? What can I do to make things better?

I love you,

mum

I excluded stuff that I didn't feel comfy writing, that Porr also suggested. I can't find the part in her book where she talks about it now - I need to reread the book... .  

This letter was enough from me to re-establish contact with her after about 11mths of n/c. She was obviously ready for it too. Nevertheless this is the young woman who believes I have subjected her to a lifetime of physical and emotional abuse... .  and that I am the cause for her PTSD... .  

cheers,

Vivek    

[suchsadness]

Thanks for your input and for sharing your letter.       I need to get my thoughts organized this weekend if I am going to write and send the letter with their package, and I appreciate your sharing with me.  I am hoping this will be a step to helping her heal, and that would be my intent more than working on our relationship.  I have accepted what we have as a relationship and quite honestly even though I would call it a "medium chill" relationship, it does feel better than when she was sharing all of her problems with me and there was nothing I could do to help her, and was her (not physically) punching bag.  She has chosen to stop sharing all her chaos and problems, and our relationship is somewhat superficial and limited, but it feels more normal.  It is definitely more healthy for me.  As I said, a letter to her from me would be meant to help her more than focus on "us".  This is why I need it to be worded just right - so we don't end up deep in a blaming/defensive/negative state.  Thanks again Vivek .

[vivekananda]

I hear what you are saying and it makes sense why you are saying it. I would still include the questions 'what can I do to improve our relationship?' and ' What can I do to make things better?'

because:

• it puts the ball in her court;
  
  
• relationships are a key issue for pwBPD, so for her to think about it (if she does) she uses those neural pathways that need reinforcing. It exercises her brain where it needs exercises (you remember the brain studies for pwBPD?)



• it gives you something to focus on that is not about her and her problems and what she has to do - all judgemental things - much more positive for her to think about what you should do... .  it's better that she be judgemental about you than you be interpreted as making a judgement about her 
  
  

If you wanted to you could post a draft here for all of us to consider and give you feedback - that's what I did... .  

cheers,

Vivek    

[suchsadness]

Vivek ,

  Good points... .  and again, thanks for your input.  I will definitely think about posting a draft and getting some feedback if I decide that this is the right time for the letter.  I'm still a bit unsure if it is the right timing, but then again maybe that is just me procrastinating!  Have a good weekend. 

[vivekananda]

Hi suchsadness 

weekend is progressing well... .  went to amazing Art gallery yesterday and caught up with uni friends. Then went to 60th b'day afternoon, then went to soccer match where my team won! Pretty full day.

Re the letter, just because you draft one doesn't mean you have to send it. Mine sat for about a month... .  but drafting it was another 'process' that helped me heal.

Hope your weekend is going well too!

cheers,

Vivek    

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[suchsadness]

Vivek  - glad to hear you had a nice weekend, sounds like it was relaxing and fun... .  mine... .  not so much! 

My dd35 BPD called and completely went off on me, starting with why didn't I tell her that her sister has cancer and progressing into how I have never been there for any of my children, I turned a blind eye to her being abused by her step-father... .  and on and on.  I couldn't get a word in without her attacking me over and over again.  It was pretty awful.  The fact is that my other dd37 called a couple of weeks ago to say she has tyroid cancer - and they are doing some treatments... .  and I am broke.  This is a horrible thing to say -  but I am actually questioning whether that is the truth or not.  She said she is getting 3 rounds of chemotherapy to try to kill the small tumor (one that they can't see or feel - she was only losing hair) before deciding if they should do surgery.  Well, in all my researching on the internet about throid cancer, they talk about radioactive iodine and other things but not chemo unless it is used in combination with other things or after surgery.  She has lied to us before about medical issues (seeking money), so I don't know what to think.  She also does NOT want me to go (out of state) to be with her AT ALL... .  very insistent that I stay away. 

So anyway, it was going pretty good with my uBPD dd37 before this weekend, but now I am black AGAIN.  She has never come out and said anything about being abused by her step-father (in over 30 years) but always blamed me and her father for a terrible childhood - much like so many others on this site.  So now I really have mixed feelings about writing the letter - but maybe this is a better time then ever?  And Vivek  - you are right about drafting it, I think it would make me feel a lot better just to do that at this point.  But now I have this other situation added to the mix - that she's mad I didn't tell her about her sister.  Her sister specifically said don't tell anyone, but of course when she told her father, he spread it all over and it got back to uBPD dd37 about 3rd hand.  The two sisters have been estranged since last May when BPD dd35 cut communication and tried to tell everyone else to stop talking to her sister as well.  Now dd37 doesn't want anything to do with her sister and knows that talking with her would just cause more stress in her life.  What a mess - and I'm sure hard for people to follow what I'm saying... .  sigh!   :'(

I just need some time to process all this - and again look at the book before taking any actions.  My BPD dd35 is riding me about coming out to where they live to be with my dd37 when she has cancer (according to her - what mother wouldn't rush to their child's side when they have cancer... .  see how bad you are), but dd37 is TOTALLY against my coming.  I told BPD dd35 that I would talk to her sister again and left it at that.  Now I feel like I need to let her know I talked to her sister and tell her she DOES NOT want me there.  My dh says, leave it alone and don't start it up again... .  any thoughts from the exerience of this board on whether I should let her know I talked to her?  I always appreciate and respect what people on this board say and suggest... .  thanks.   

[lbjnltx]

Hello suchsadness,

Sorry to hear that you are in the middle of all this.  It seems your dd35 is stressing about her sister's "illness".  She must be scared... .  no?   

It just my opinion... .  here goes... .  get out of the mix.  The best way I know to do that is with boundaries and simple truth statements.  Something like:

Suchsadness to DD37:  I'm sad to hear that you are not well.  As an adult you have the right to choose your support.  I would like to be supportive in the way you need me to be.  Let me know what that is.

Suchsadness to DD35:  I know you are concerned about your sister.  We are too. She has made it clear she doesn't want me to be with her.  She is an adult and I will honor her wishes. If she changes her mind we are open to giving her support.  Any further concerns you have can be discussed directly with her.

The only way to stay out of this triangle is to move to the center and out of the corners.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0


lbj

[qcarolr]

suchsadness - lbj has offerd a good example of words to validate each of your D's feelings and fears while allowing you to get out of the middle of their r/s. Whether they seem able to hear what you say, in the moment shared often remains a mystery when I try this with my DD26. Yet, often I can sense later that the words did get through.

The hardest part in the midst of all this distress is finding that rare teaching moment. I often use a text message to open the door. DD may never acknowledge she read it, though I know she reads all her texts. Maybe worth a try.

qcr  

[suchsadness]

Thank you both for your thoughts and suggestions.   

lbj, yes that is exactly the approach I need to take - and have almost gotten there.  I actually told my dd37 BPD that this triangle of dysfunction with me in the middle has got to end.  I do believe that in her own way she is scared for her sister for many reasons, but she has demonstrated some very sick ways of expressing that.  Now knowing that she is having health problems (real or made up) she sent her sister a massive detailed text message about her perceived childhood abuse, trying to convince her sister that it happened and she just doesn't remember it.  What a time to do this - if she has cancer then she should be decreasing her stress.  I have also reassured my dd35 that I would come out if and when she needs me... .  she is fine with that and seems very logical about it all.  She is most stressed about her sister relationship!

qcr, I have thought about sending a text message - as she is just like your dd in that she definitely reads all her messages, she just doesn't very often acknowledge them.  I bought 2 valentines cards for my daughters and have thought about sending the sorry letter (perhaps a short version) and now think I will add the words of lbj in with it.  I feel a lot better about things as a few days have passed and especially after reading your posts - both of you... .  thank you so much!   

[lbjnltx]

 

[qcarolr]