BPDW not taking my no for an answer

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Long story short, I left my BPDW in May and am preparing my divorce.  She contacted me yesterday and wanted to know whether I would join adult DD and her on vacation.  I said no.  That led to an exhausting day of frantic texts and phone calls from her.  She goes back and forth from DD wants me to come to "don't come, I don't care anymore."  She has been pressing me now all morning to "answer her texts" about joining her and when I will arrive.  I have been ignoring them.  DD just texted me to answer her texts.  I have to reiterated I am not coming, and it is going to be a sh*t show.  Any advice on approach.  She is relentless and will not take my no for an answer. 

[fsoduck]

Long story short, I left my BPDW in May and am preparing my divorce.  She contacted me yesterday and wanted to know whether I would join adult DD and her on vacation.  I said no.  That led to an exhausting day of frantic texts and phone calls from her.  She goes back and forth from DD wants me to come to "don't come, I don't care anymore."  She has been pressing me now all morning to "answer her texts" about joining her and when I will arrive.  I have been ignoring them.  DD just texted me to answer her texts.  I have to reiterated I am not coming, and it is going to be a sh*t show.  Any advice on approach.  She is relentless and will not take my no for an answer. 

[kells76]

What do you think would happen if you said something like "Sorry, I can't make it. I have nothing further to discuss. Have a safe trip." Or, even shorter, "I'm not going on the trip, and that's final."

and then muted your phone?

Is the issue that she won't stop texting you?

or that you feel like you have to keep explaining/engaging?

What do you think the worst thing to happen would be, if you gave yourself permission to not keep engaging on the topic?

She's not going to take No for an answer, and you don't have control over that.

You do have control over how, or if, you engage with the texts.

Thoughts?

[fsoduck]

She is going to continue to text/call and she is going to ruin the holiday for my daughter, whom she uses as a way to guilt me into participation.  It's awful.  I avoid completely blocking her because she has in the past decided to contact my colleagues and supervisors at work to ask them to ask me to answer her texts.  So, I will ignore them for awhile until I cannot anymore.

[kells76]

How old is your D? What does she seem to think about her mom's behaviors?

What do your coworkers think about being contacted? How did they respond in the past?

[fsoduck]

My daughter is 23.  She moved back in with her mother after graduating from college.  She could leave tomorrow.  She makes good money.  I have no idea what she currently thinks about her mother's behavior.  In the past, she has expressed desire for her mother to get therapy. But that goes nowhere. 

I work in a national security setting, so my colleagues and supervisors are sensitive to things that might seem to draw unwarranted attention from higher ups.  When she contacted them in the past, they spoke with me and then ignored her. 

[fsoduck]

I feel I've already explained why I do not want to have a vacation involving her.  I told her that "given the events in May (which involved the police coming to our home), I"m not sure that it is good for you and I to be in the same place and that we would not have a comfortable vacation or enjoyable time together.  For this reason, I don't think it a good idea for me to come.  Thanks for understanding." 

She is now texting me all caps "WHEN R U GONNA GET HERE?' I feel like saying looked into flights, nothing available at the right schedule and price.  Please enjoy the beach."

She's still going to call/text.  So, I may just have to block her.  I feel for my daughter

[kells76]

My daughter is 23.  She moved back in with her mother after graduating from college.  She could leave tomorrow.  She makes good money.  I have no idea what she currently thinks about her mother's behavior.  In the past, she has expressed desire for her mother to get therapy. But that goes nowhere. 

I work in a national security setting, so my colleagues and supervisors are sensitive to things that might seem to draw unwarranted attention from higher ups.  When she contacted them in the past, they spoke with me and then ignored her. 

In terms of work, if there's an HR department, or a manager or supervisor who seems amenable, ponder documenting a "heads up" about the fact that you have an impending divorce and your stbxw (soon to be ex wife) may escalate behaviors. If your workplace and colleagues know ahead of time -- not everything, but enough -- I would hope that they would be supportive, or at least would know not to engage with your W. The documentation might be important as she sounds like a boundary buster who may try different, more intense tactics.

In terms of your daughter, as she is an adult, it's now her journey on how to manage a relationship with her mom. It IS difficult to watch. There are ways for you to be supportive of your daughter without rescuing her from her mom. Your D may need to have a couple of "bad" experiences as an adult with Mom before she can figure out how she wants the relationship to look. A vacation alone with Mom doesn't sound great, yet doesn't sound dangerous (again, because your D is an adult). It may be the experience your D needs to find her footing. You can be there for your D by text or phone, without having to be there in person. That is perfectly OK.

I feel I've already explained why I do not want to have a vacation involving her.  I told her that "given the events in May (which involved the police coming to our home), I"m not sure that it is good for you and I to be in the same place and that we would not have a comfortable vacation or enjoyable time together.  For this reason, I don't think it a good idea for me to come.  Thanks for understanding." 

She is now texting me all caps "WHEN R U GONNA GET HERE?' I feel like saying looked into flights, nothing available at the right schedule and price.  Please enjoy the beach."

She's still going to call/text.  So, I may just have to block her.  I feel for my daughter

Sadly, explanations tend to go over like a lead balloon with pwBPD. If only a logical recounting of actual past events helped! Unfortunately, explanations tend to add fuel to the fire, versus helping bring closure. As you're experiencing, it's not like more explanations would help your W finally accept your decision. So, no need to keep explaining.

You can decide for yourself if you want to do a "final text" like you're pondering, indicating you won't be there, or if you want to gift yourself permission to not engage with her at all. Either is an option. It's important that whatever you choose, you are able to do it with integrity and sticking to your values. If you've really looked into flights and none are satisfactory, then yes, you could say that. For me, honesty is a value, so that's where I'd lean -- saying "Sorry, I am not able to make it" would match my values. For other people, finding an external reason can be helpful. It's important to note that sometimes, the more reasons we give, the more it tends towards "explaining" what needs no justification, and the bigger target it can give the pwBPD for engagement. I'd hate to hear that your W took the "no flights at right price" text at face value and then... bought you tickets. Anyway, just food for thought on ways to "close the door" on the interaction.

Again, it hurts to see your daughter in this position. It may take some adjustment to the new mindset of a new family structure and her being an adult. While you don't have to have your D be your confidante about "adult problems", she is also old enough to hear more about the issues, and for you to both be more frank about the support you can offer, and for you to (hopefully) feel less worry about her ability to handle herself with her mom.

Something like "Hey D, while I won't be on the trip, I'd love to hear about your experience. I'll call you during the trip on Day at Time if that works. And at any time if you need me to just listen, or need anything at all, send me a text, I'll always catch it. I love you!"

You no longer have to be there in person to care for her, yet you can still, in an appropriate way for an adult child, be there for her.

One last idea: yes, you may need to block communication from your W, as it may be relentless. You can give your D a heads up that "hey, I am not taking calls from Mom at this time, so don't feel like you need to tell me that Mom texted, I have it covered". Something to help your D know it isn't an emergency.

[fsoduck]

Thank you.

[kells76]

You got it. All of that sounds so relentless, I wonder if it's challenging to have the space and time to think straight. Hope you get some well deserved rest, and we'll be here as a sounding board whenever you need to talk through stuff.

[fsoduck]

I've silenced my phone but she has called me fifteen (15) times today.  I am not even sure it's worth going back and saying again " I cannot come.  Nothing more to discuss."  All I here is "my daughter is upset I am not coming."  Of course, I don't here from my daughter.  It is a ruse to guilt me into participation.

[kells76]

I've silenced my phone but she has called me fifteen (15) times today.  I am not even sure it's worth going back and saying again " I cannot come.  Nothing more to discuss."  All I here is "my daughter is upset I am not coming."  Of course, I don't here from my daughter.  It is a ruse to guilt me into participation.

That seems like an important point to recognize.

We have also experienced the kids' mom texting us "The kids told me they don't want to do XYZ with you." When DH asks the kids directly (without saying "Mom told me X"), just asks "what do you think about doing XYZ", sometimes they'll say "That's fine, I don't have a problem with XYZ".

Additionally, your D is an adult. When you and she are together, you guys can talk about how she's feeling directly. It's important to model to her that healthy adults don't actively triangulate or "take the bait" to participate in triangulation... even to "help" someone.

I agree with you that based on your past experiences, "explaining one more time" that you aren't going... will probably go the way it did the first 186 times. If it had been effective, you wouldn't be here.

...

What does it feel like to choose to silence your phone? How are you doing with that?

Hope you get some R&R this week...

kells76

[Turkish]

I don't have much to add to the excellent advice from kells76.

She's triangulating your daughter, and may be triangulating you if there's conflict between her and DD. You've been crystal clear, and she's being utterly unreasonable.

[fsoduck]

I keep my phone on silent, but she is not blocked.  That makes things worse.  It was tough over the weekend, but she eventually let up.  But she is back at it again this week, now asking about Thanksgiving.  I've not answered.  She has chosen to go to email and has asked why I am not responding to her calls or texts.  I'm trying to decide whether to tell her I need time no contact to process things and distance myself emotionally or some such.  But that is probably not a good idea. 

I could just respond with "I am sure you will have a good time at X's for Thanksgiving.  Sorry I cannot join." 

Funny thing is, she then goes into making idle threat mode, i.e. I am going to throw away the things you left here.  Guess what?  If I really cared about those things, they wouldn't still be there. 

[fsoduck]

In terms of your daughter, as she is an adult, it's now her journey on how to manage a relationship with her mom. It IS difficult to watch. There are ways for you to be supportive of your daughter without rescuing her from her mom. Your D may need to have a couple of "bad" experiences as an adult with Mom before she can figure out how she wants the relationship to look. A vacation alone with Mom doesn't sound great, yet doesn't sound dangerous (again, because your D is an adult). It may be the experience your D needs to find her footing. You can be there for your D by text or phone, without having to be there in person. That is perfectly OK.

Again, it hurts to see your daughter in this position. It may take some adjustment to the new mindset of a new family structure and her being an adult. While you don't have to have your D be your confidante about "adult problems", she is also old enough to hear more about the issues, and for you to both be more frank about the support you can offer, and for you to (hopefully) feel less worry about her ability to handle herself with her mom.

Something like "Hey D, while I won't be on the trip, I'd love to hear about your experience. I'll call you during the trip on Day at Time if that works. And at any time if you need me to just listen, or need anything at all, send me a text, I'll always catch it. I love you!"

You no longer have to be there in person to care for her, yet you can still, in an appropriate way for an adult child, be there for her.

I am now facing the same situation with the holidays.  STBX is pressing me on when am I coming.  I've not answered and she is asking why I am ignoring her texts.  I just don't want to deal with the inevitable rage that will follow. 

At the same time, DD completely ignores me.  We had a text exchange last week that really hurt me.  I noticed a missed call from her.  I texted her back about it and then asked her whether she received the birthday gift my mother sent her (She never sends thank you notes or other acknowledgements.  I never did receive any acknowledgement of mine either.  I guess that is just par for the course.).  When I asked her about it and suggested she send a text at least saying she received it I was treated to a rant about her having to deal with her car insurance alone, my lack of empathy and how everything has to "revolve around me and my need to be seen as a kind, considerate person, even when I am 1,000s of miles away and detached from any real interaction with a human being related to you."  She then told me to "leave her alone" and to "go chat with an AI bot if I need attention."  I've generally never felt so angry, hurt by her. It took me about three hours to calm down.

[Turkish]

This is tough to deal with so far away, but leave the joint vacation aside for now. Your daughter is communicating that she feels abandoned. There's a validation target here. This is between you and her, not your x-wife. Could you arrange daddy-daughter time?