Don't know what to do

[raytamtay3]

Last night on my way to taking DS to see WWE Live in AC, I received a call from the RTC social worker advising me that she was taking my DD over to the police station to file a complaint against the girl who has been harassing her.  Allegedly the girl broke in to the house where DD lives to try and get to DD and had to be retrained. DD said that the girl and a couple of her friends have been plotting to jump DD and that my DD feared for her safety.  I told my DD that I would handle things. Told her I would contact her CM and let her know what's going on and see if she thought she should be moved to another facility like my DD is requesting. My DD seemed ok with this... .

I had a VM later that night from the police officer to call him back. When I did he informed me that my DD was arrested.  Apparently 1/2 after she got back to the RTC she tried to storm in to the office to get to the phone to try and call her CM herself as she didn't like how the RTC was handling things, and my DD ended up spitting on a staff member so the staff member pressed charges.

I have both my DH and my mom saying it's a ploy for my DD to get out of there, that I'm always rescuing her by telling her I'll see about getting her out and placed someplace else, and that she needs to be in this type of facility.  To me, this is more of a place for juvenile delinquents which by all accounts, DD is at this point, but in my mind she is because she hasn't had her emotional issues addressed properly and this doesn't seem to be the place for that. But I don't know if my thinking is right at this point because I have DH and my mother both telling me I'm wrong. I know I have the emotions in it because she is my DD. And to add insult to injury, my ex knows about it and he feels how I am feeling even though I dare not divulge how I'm feeling to him.  He called the RTC and left numerous messages saying how they need to drop the charges because DD will now go to jail for two years because she is on probation. And that if they don't, WE will press charges not only against the girl who has been harassing DD, but the facility for doing nothing about it... .

So I reach out to you all for objective points of view. You all know my DD's history as I've posted it. Any suggestions on what I should do? Should I make her stay there or should I look in to having her moved provided I even can at this point with this new charge against her. :'(

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Verbena]

I wouldn't take her out of the RTC.  The staff there did the right  thing in response to the bully who was trying to get to your DD, but your DD's behavior to the staff was just as unacceptable.  To take her out at this point is just reinforcing bad behavior.

  I agree with your DH and your mom that this is a ploy to get what she wants.  She has to learn that there are consequences.  The girl who tried to attack her should have consequences and so should your daughter for her own behavior. 

I truly believe that you will do your daughter no favors by rescuing her from the RTC.  She has had fights and physical confrontations with many people in many situations, so it's not surprising that it's happening now.  I'm definitely not condoning what the other girl did, just saying that this is the pattern. 

Good for you for not sharing your feelings with your ex.  Given what you've told us about him, I would be inclined to do the opposite of what he wants.  I don't feel he has his DD's best interests at heart, and I know you do. 

[lever.]

This is SO difficult. I have been following your threads and it certainly is clear that your DD needs residential treatment. However it is hard to know if this current placement is meeting her needs.

I understand that she needs to know that she can't manipulate and you are doing your best for her but if she's in the wrong environment it won't help at all, especially if she feels her voice isn't being heard.

What a horrible dilemna and with all family members with a different opinion.

I think what I would do is ask for an urgent meeting with senior staff at the facility and see what they say and whether or not they impress you with their understanding of your DDs difficulties.

I'm sorry this is happening after all your efforts to get her help.

I don't think I would react too quickly. She didn't help herself spitting at the member of staff.

Could you try SET?

"I want to get the best possible help for you and will be meeting the staff

I'm really sorry you are having all this trouble with the other girls

Try to hang in there, being disrespectful to the staff isn't helping us to sort out the best plan". I hope someone with more experience is along to help soon.

Take care

Just noticed that Verbena was posting at the same time, good to see people are on to it

[jellibeans]

Ray

When my dd16 was in RTC she ran away from the center thinking that if she was caught they would take her to juvie. She wanted out of there and was deseparate. It was important to not give into her and stand our ground. It really is too soon for you to tell if this place is the right palce or not. Your dd is extremely defiant and probably has a conduct disorder? Removing her at this point I think would be a mistake and it might actually cause her behave even worse. Are you ready for your dd to come home? HOw will you manage her when they are struggling to do so?

Have you received a treatment plan yet?  It does seem like your dd is headed for jail in her future and there might not be anything you can do about it... . it is very important that she feel the full weight of her actions... . there has to be consequences. Don't rescue... . she is manipulating you and she needs to know you are serious.

Hang in there Ray... . things are going to be unsettled at first and her defiancy is complicating things as well. Things will get better.

[Verbena]

Since my DD was never in a RTC, it's very easy for me to sit here and tell you what you should do. My heart really does go out to you.   

I truly do feel (as jellibeans said) that your DD is on the path to jail--not a juvenile detention center, but big people jail where having you come get her will not be an option.   I also agree that it is too soon to tell if this RTC can help her or not and that you should have a sit-down with the staff about a treatment plan.

Ultimately, no place can help her if she won't follow the rules and do her part.  I'm pulling for your DD and praying still for you and your family. 

[Being Mindful]

Let her deal with the natural consequences of her actions. Don't rescue.

Without her knowledge start asking the needed questions about what kind of facility this is, what percentage of kids do they get from the juvenile system, what percentage with known mental illness, dual diagnosis etc. Are they doing psychological evaluations? If so, when? Ask what therapy types they use? Did you have a pre-placement meeting or placement meeting the day your daughter was admitted so that you and she understands consequences of behavior, how many holds are allowed, etc. These are important questions.

Then, if you can start researching other treatment centers and really, really develop a question document to ask of facilities using what you think your daughter needs... . don't do this from a mom's soft heart but get down to the absolute truth. Try to ignore your soft, mom's heart. Don't accept anything that doesn't meet the criteria that she needs. I'm recommending you start getting prepared for the what ifs. I do agree with others that it is too soon to know if this place is the right place, but I do have concerns.

In one of your other posts, you mentioned that the director has already softened her foundation make-up rule for your daughter. Ask yourself why? It may have made you and her feel more comfortable but it's a red flag that the director did this. Now your daughter knows she can manipulate the director of the center... . not good.

Keep going Ray! You can do this, I know you can.

 

[Kate4queen]

I know this is heartbreaking for you but I really think you should stay out of it and let her experience the consequences of her actions. She can't always rely on you to fix everything for her.

Also I'd agree about separately asking more questions about the facility and making your mind up about the future.

[Elbry]

My heart goes out to you.     My DD is not in a RTC yet we are just starting the process and that alone breaks my heart so I can only imagine where you are. 

I agree with the other replies though, she needs to deal with the natural consequences of her actions.  I have an older daughter that has been in legal trouble once in the past and is in trouble currently and I refuse to rescue her.  She has to face what she did. 

On the other hand, I'd be asking some serious questions about that RTC.  I've read your posts about it and it doesn't sound very therapeutic.  Reading about all this bullying and harrassment makes me nervous.

Hang in there and remind yourself you are doing your best with love.

[raytamtay3]

Thanks everyone. I'm once again struggling. But it seems the majority rules. Stick it out a little longer.

I'm waiting for DD's case manager from the RTC to call me back so I can talk to her about everthing and get her perspective. I sense that she is tough, but fair and I like that.

This week is going to be rough.

[raytamtay3]

PS: My ex is going ballistic right now. He left several messages for the facility theatening to sue. This is why I told them I did not want him involved. He is irrational. But I guess this will be a natural consquence for them not heeding my warning. They told me that because it's my DD request because this is for her recovery, he was going to be included in the family sessions beginning next week. Good thing is now they will see for themselves.

[raytamtay3]

Let me prefix this by saying how difficult it is at this point to believe anything my DD says after catching her in so many lies. And it's really ashame because now that she's cried wolf so many times, we'll never truly know who is telling the truth in this case... .

Finally heard back from the case manager from the RTC. She appologized for taking so long, but she said she didn't work over the weekend and wanted to get the full story before she got back to me. EX thinks it's because they wanted to colloborate their stories...

So from what she understands happened is that my DD and another girl wanted to press charges against another for harrassment. So the social worker took them over to the police station. They said they normally don't for things like this, but wanted to let the girls know they were being heard (someone on here said that too).

When they got back they were both allowed a phone call. The other girl went first and because there was a code blue, my DD didn't get a chance to make her call which sent her in to a tissy and she tried to burst into another office that houses confidential files to get to a phone and needed to be restrained after cussing out all involved. She was placed in an upright hold. She then cussed out the person who took her over to the police station and then spit in her face as she was restraining her. DD now claims the staff punched her in the face repeadly the CM said. She said but the police checked her out and there were no visible marks on her... .

With respect to the "shank". The CM said what that was was another girl, totally unrelated to what's going on with DD and not even directed at her, had a crocheting needle in a pillow case telling another girl how she's gonna get her when she gets out.

I asked straight out if the CM felt my DD was in the right place and she said we need to give it more time to see. For whatever reason, I trust her.

So we will see what happens. I'm going to give it the full 30 days until our first family meeting to see how things go.  Oh and it seems my DD  has this partner in crime now and apparently the staff heard them plotting about how they were going to manipulate the system to get out. True? Not true? Who knows... .

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Verbena]

and it seems my DD  has this partner in crime now and apparently the staff heard them plotting about how they were going to manipulate the system to get out. True? Not true? Who knows... .

It occurred to me that the whole bullying incident may have part of a scheme on your DD's part to gain your sympathy.  That's not to say the girl who tried to attack her isn't completely responsible for her actions, but it is very possible that your DD sensed this girl was unstable and would come after her if she provoked her into it. 

Did the staff hear your DD and the other girl plotting before the bullying incident?  If they did, I don't see why they would follow through with allowing your DD to press charges.  Your DD claiming she feared for her safety doesn't fit with your description of her, so that comment really made me wonder.  But you'll never really know the truth because like you said, you can't believe anything she says. 

Your husband managed to show his true colors in record time, didn't he?  Thank goodness your DD isn't around him much. 

[raytamtay3]

and it seems my DD  has this partner in crime now and apparently the staff heard them plotting about how they were going to manipulate the system to get out. True? Not true? Who knows... .

It occurred to me that the whole bullying incident may have part of a scheme on your DD's part to gain your sympathy.  That's not to say the girl who tried to attack her isn't completely responsible for her actions, but it is very possible that your DD sensed this girl was unstable and would come after her if she provoked her into it. 

Did the staff hear your DD and the other girl plotting before the bullying incident?  If they did, I don't see why they would follow through with allowing your DD to press charges.  Your DD claiming she feared for her safety doesn't fit with your description of her, so that comment really made me wonder.  But you'll never really know the truth because like you said, you can't believe anything she says. 

Your husband managed to show his true colors in record time, didn't he?  Thank goodness your DD isn't around him much. 

Apparently they heard the girls plotting when they brought them back after taking them to the police station.

And I knew my ex would show them his true colors. I probably didn't even need to try and warn them.

[raytamtay3]

I'm a bit concerned over a couple of things related to the RTC. I contacted DD's RTC CM yesterday to check to see if DD's phone priviledges have been suspended because of the recent incident and was informed that they have not, and that DD would be permitted to make a call last night after the therapy appointment. Neither my ex nor I received a call from her... . That is very very odd. I thought for sure she'd call us complaining about being in there and asking when we are getting her out.

The other is it takes too long, in my opinion, for anyone at the RTC to get back to me, if they do at all. It seems the only one who does is the CM. I've sent messages to both her therapist and to the assistant CM and have never received a call or email back.

These two things concern me. Would they concern you? Is this the norm at RTCs? I won't feel better until I talk to DD. I had a nightmare about her last night.

On a side note, first visitation with DD will be this Saturday. I'm definetly going to see what's going on there.

[Rapt Reader]

Hey, raytamtay3 

I do not have experience with a teenager in an RTC, so my experience may be not applicable to yours, but this is what I do have experience with:

My son stayed at 2 separate "regular" In-Patient Rehabs within 3 years. The first was for 28 days, the 2nd, two years later was for 36 days. Then, last year (a year after the 2nd Rehab) he spent 21 days in an Intensive In-Patient Dual Diagnosis Center, which I would think is similar to your daughter's RTC.

In all cases, my son had phone privileges after about 1 week of admittance, and in all cases his phone calls home were fairly regular (at least 3 times/week) at first, then he stopped calling us as therapy got more intensive. We rarely heard from him after the first 2 weeks, but he actually was doing very well at that point, resigned to staying and not whining about wanting to come home.

In all cases he had either one Social Worker, Therapist or Counselor assigned to him for taking all of our calls into the Rehabs/DDx Center. We were not able to call around and talk to anyone else (unless it was Accounting, and having to do with Insurance or billing purposes   ). Our calls were sometimes taken right away, but more often we left messages that sometimes took time to be returned. Lots of times the explanation was that my questions (I always left explicit messages) needed to be vetted by his whole professional team before his Social Worker (or whoever) could give us answers.

It took time for us to get used to that, but it did seem to be the norm for In-Patient treatment, and I eventually learned not to get upset about it. I also learned to enjoy the free brain-space that communicating with my son or his treatment team on a very limited basis afforded me. In the end, it all worked out. This is just my experience... .

[crumblingdad]

Raytay - oh man I'm sorry this is a tough spot and I've lived it from personal experience and at this point not sure what advice to give.

Sounds like it may be the RTC isn't the greatest and sounds like your DD is exasperating things making it seem worse then it is.

Prior to a good RTC my DD was in the Chins program which means the state decided on group homes.  Most didn't have the mental health aspect.  One was an Easter Seals lockdown facility with a DBT program seperate but you had to be in the other unit before qualifying for DBT unit for 3 weeks first to prove you "wanted the dbt."  That place had a lot of questionable issues going on and quite frankly, an awful counselor, a bunch of college kids working as staff who were in way over their head, and a lot of kids who were one step from detention center and this was their last hoorah.  I'm convinced it probably did more damage then good with our DD as well as exposed her to a lot of bad seeds.

On the other hand she did a lot of what your DD is doing at the RTC she ended up in as well as some other pretty well run group home placements and it was a total complete BS snow job to manipulate and try and get herself out.

I wish I could give you a good answer but I had a gut feeling that the Easter Seals lockdown was the wrong place a few weeks into it and really started listening and asking tons of questions and making sure I expressed my every concern.  My gut was right and we had her moved within a few weeks after it really went downhill.  So my only suggestion is don't ignore your gut and don't act too fast but do ask a ton of questions and don't be the least bit hesitant in getting every answer you need to anything that doesn't feel right!

[raytamtay3]

I just received the following email from the CM (thoughts?):

Good Afternoon,



This email is to give you an update on the above mentioned. I spoke with her one on one Monday to hear her side of the story in regard to the events that occurred over the weekend... I do not feel that T.F. is being completely honest. She had some concerns. I felt as if her concerns needed to be addressed so we met with Mr. W (chief administrator) on Monday. I also wanted to get an overview from the staff (during school hours) so I went out to the school to speak with the VisionQuest staff as well as the school staff. I was informed that T.F. can be very disrespectful and insightful. She seems to have a different perspective of events that involve her. Mr. Rr (direct care staff) has had to pull T.F. out of the class room on several occasions with hopes of trying to verbally redirect her conversations. It is said that she speaks about things inappropriate for a classroom setting. When I left the school she seemed to be okay. Apparently after I left Mr. W (chief administrator) had to address her behavior. She also received a write up for being insightful/confrontational to one of her male peers. The staff was able to bring the situation under control. I was also informed by one of her teachers that T.F. made an allegation that one of the staff members had dragged her out of the classroom and into the VisionQuest van. She also stated the staff member pulled her hat off her head while also pulling her hair. Well the staff did take her hat off but the staff did not pull her hair according to the other adults in the classroom. T.F. informed me yesterday that she spoke with the principle and they are allowed to wear hats in the classroom. I have not confirmed this information at this time at this time but I am working on it. Last I was informed, they are  not allowed to wear hats in the classroom. There is no way that a staff member would be permitted to drag a youth through the hallways of the school. There are hall monitors throughout the day as well a Lumberton police officer. They would not have allowed this to happen. I spoke with T.F. yesterday about the school and incident and my perception is that she was trying to defend one of her peers. I had to remind her that was not her battle.



After all of this I had a heart to heart with T.F. I informed her that I did not feel as if she was telling the whole truth. I am a neutral party and I am not taking sides. I need her to take  ownership for her behaviors. I feel as if she has a strong mind and will but she is definitely manipulative. I also told her that the youth that she has decided to team up with is not as strong as she is and she is using this to her advantage.



T.F. has informed myself and Kendra that A will be taking her out of the program. My response was I have not heard this from A.



Please contact me with questions.



Thanks,

[raytamtay3]

I am so worried. Nobody is calling me back from the RTC. DD was suppose to call either her father or I after her therapist appointment last night and never did. I am climbing the walls right now and about to lose it! I can't take this crap! I have such bad feelings!

[lever.]

 I have been thinking a lot about this.

The more I read the more I feel you need to stand firm.

I certainly wouldn't be reacting quickly. You feel you can trust the CM and I would continue to work closely with her.


You can continue to ask questions and do research without discussing it with your daughter but I am thinking that she needs to see consequences for her actions.

If the facility is not ideal she is still not dealing with this in an appropriate and constructive way.

The more I read the more my opinion has moved towards taking a firm line.

She would certainly be unsafe outside residential care and too much for a family to deal with at the moment.

[Rapt Reader]

Are you referring to a call you have made in response to their recent email to you regarding your daughter's behavior, as mentioned above?

How long has it been since you've been waiting for a return call? Or, are you just waiting to hear from your daughter, since she missed last night's call? Or, something else?

I know it's hard, raytamtay3... . hang in there. Sometimes they can't respond right away to our questions, because they need to confer and get all the facts from all the professionals involved. It could be something else, but it might not be a negative reason  

[raytamtay3]

Are you referring to a call you have made in response to their recent email to you regarding your daughter's behavior (in your other thread)?

How long has it been since you've been waiting for a return call? Or, are you just waiting to hear from your daughter, since she missed last night's call? Or, something else?

I know it's hard, raytamtay3... . hang in there. Sometimes they can't respond right away to our questions, because they need to confer and get all the facts from all the professionals involved. It could be something else, but it might not be a negative reason 

I need that darn cream NOW!    I just want to know why she didn't call. I just need to hear her voice and know she is ok. I just have such horrible visions in my head. I'm my own worst enemy sometimes.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[raytamtay3]

I have been thinking a lot about this.

The more I read the more I feel you need to stand firm.

I certainly wouldn't be reacting quickly. You feel you can trust the CM and I would continue to work closely with her.


You can continue to ask questions and do research without discussing it with your daughter but I am thinking that she needs to see consequences for her actions.

If the facility is not ideal she is still not dealing with this in an appropriate and constructive way.

The more I read the more my opinion has moved towards taking a firm line.

She would certainly be unsafe outside residential care and too much for a family to deal with at the moment.

That's why I love you all. You give it to me straight and put me back on track. But boy is this hard.

[maxen]

hi raytam. i've been following and i have had no advice to give, but you have really been put through the wringer and i continue to offer you all my support and sympathy. about the above letter i have two questions:

does "insightful" mean "direct and personal"? i learned once that "counseled' was edu-speak for "verbally berated", so i wonder if this is another euphemism.

and are you the person referred to as "A"?

[raytamtay3]

It's official. I've completely lost my mind... . Anyway, I finally heard back from the RC and the CM put my mind at ease once again.  She is looking into why DD didn't call us.

DD is permitted vistation beginning this weekend but I just found out she can only have on visitation at a time. So my ex and I are going to meet up there as we both want to see her. At first the CM was concerned about this thinking we don't get along, understanbly because of my saying that I didn't want him involved, but the truth of the matter is, we can be amicable. I just don't want him hindering her recovery and actually with me there, he can't sabatoge things. So we will both visit with her. It's going to be supervised by the CM as well.

[raytamtay3]

hi raytam. i've been following and i have had no advice to give, but you have really been put through the wringer and i continue to offer you all my support and sympathy. about the above letter i have two questions:

does "insightful" mean "direct and personal"? i learned once that "counseled' was edu-speak for "verbally berated", so i wonder if this is another euphemism.

and are you the person referred to as "A"?

Hi!

A is the CM we work with through our county, and who referred us to this RTC. I questioned what the definition of "insightful" was as well because it didn't mesh with what she was describing. She means that DD instigates. She's using the wrong euphemsim.

Thank you for your support too. I am so thankful to have such understanding and supportive people in my corner!

PS: Just received a message from the CM from the RTC frequeating an emergency meeting April 2 to address any issues and alleviate concerns. Woah. I feel better!

[llbee814]

I'm thinking cm meant incite and perhaps autocorrect changed it.  I agree with lever.  Although my dd18 was not in an rtc, we did plenty of inpatient and partial placements and this sounds like fairly typical behavior for an uncooperative teen.  It is so very hard to deal with because even though we know what our girls are capable of we aren't there to see what's going on for ourselves and must rely on strangers.  Giving up control is soo hard.  The bottom line, I found, was that my daughter had to see and experience that nobody was caving into her before her behavior got better.  She tried a lot of b/s before it sunk in that she was the one that was ultimately responsible for when she would be released from a program and that she had to work for it.  I know it's not easy but hang in there.  You are doing a great job for her.  This is much better than the alternative of her being home with the ability to run.   Blessings, llb

[raytamtay3]

I'm thinking cm meant incite and perhaps autocorrect changed it.  I agree with lever.  Although my dd18 was not in an rtc, we did plenty of inpatient and partial placements and this sounds like fairly typical behavior for an uncooperative teen.  It is so very hard to deal with because even though we know what our girls are capable of we aren't there to see what's going on for ourselves and must rely on strangers.  Giving up control is soo hard.  The bottom line, I found, was that my daughter had to see and experience that nobody was caving into her before her behavior got better.  She tried a lot of b/s before it sunk in that she was the one that was ultimately responsible for when she would be released from a program and that she had to work for it.  I know it's not easy but hang in there.  You are doing a great job for her.  This is much better than the alternative of her being home with the ability to run.   Blessings, llb

Thanks for your response and understanding.

CM = case manager

Thanks!

[maxen]

Hi!

A is the CM we work with through our county, and who referred us to this RTC. I questioned what the definition of "insightful" was as well because it didn't mesh with what she was describing. She means that DD instigates. She's using the wrong euphemsim.

maybe she meant "inciting." e2a: OOPS! just read llbee's post.

PS: Just received a message from the CM from the RTC frequeating an emergency meeting April 2 to address any issues and alleviate concerns. Woah. I feel better!

[lever.]

I'm glad to hear that they arranging a meeting. It will give you more opportunity to get a feel for whether this is the right place.

This must be very  difficult for you but you are doing your best for your daughters long term well being 

[peaceplease]

raytamtay,

I have worked in RTC before, and sometimes  residents lost  their phone privileges due to behaviors.   Parents were able to call anytime and question staff.  They should be able to give you a current report of how your dd is doing.

You mentioned that it takes too long for rtc to get back to you.  How long is too long?

I am glad that you are going to have a meeting soon.  I hope that you will get all of your questions answered.  You trust her CM.  Let her guide you, and if you feel this is not the right place, then search for alternatives.  And, your home or ex's is not an option.  She will try everything that she can to get out of there.  I hope you can remain strong.

Not all RTCs are good.  You can always shop around for another one while she is in there.

[raytamtay3]

Yeah, I'm going to give it a little more time before I determine if it's a good fit or not.

I almost had another heartattack last night. My mother and I went out for a relaxing bite to eat last night (yeah right), and I received a VM from the nurse at the RTC. At first the message sounded like she said my DD was hit in the face by another girl and was at the ER! I freaked! I called her back and here she said my DD was SPIT in the face by another girl.    The procedure at the RTC is to take them to the ER to get checked out I guess due to it being a bodily fluid.  

I still have not heard from DD. THAT still has me concerned.

Why can't I ever have peace?

On a different note. Ex is planning this whole lunch thing for Saturday. Buying us all hoagies... . hmmm... . should I eat it? Think it will be safe? . It's really ashame. Deep down inside he is a nice guy. Just like deep down inside DD is a nice girl.

[raytamtay3]

I just received a call from her. As expected, she is pushing to go someplace else. Said she can't even leave her house because she is constantly getting bullied by that girl. Said staff are taunting her telling her she acts all big and bad with them, why can't she stand up to the other girl? DD said because she is on probabation and doesn't want to go to jail.

She said the incident with being spit on yesterday occurred while staff were around. She also said that the incident where she got arrested was her trying to spit her hair out of her mouth and the staff member saying she spit on her and to give her all she got so she can send her to jail.

I know I have to take what she says with a grain of salt.  I asked her why she hasn't called and she said because they wouldn't let her. She sounded sadated just now... . I know they don't do that. She said the only reason she is so calm and not crying and fraking out is because she's repeated these issues to so many people now, and because they said if she made a fuss, they'd cut the conversation short and not allow her to call again.

She said she is beyond depressed. Said how she really went in with an open mind but that this place is doing nothing but harm to her.

I told her her father and I will be there Saturday and also about the emergency meeting in April.

She wants me to contact her CM about getting her out. I said I make no guarantees that will happen, but that I will let her know her concerns and tell her to call her.

[Rapt Reader]

She said she is beyond depressed. Said how she really went in with an open mind but that this place is doing nothing but harm to her.

I told her her father and I will be there Saturday and also about the emergency meeting in April.

She wants me to contact her CM about getting her out. I said I make no guarantees that will happen, but that I will let her know her concerns and tell her to call her.

I know that probably wasn't easy for you, raytamtay3... .

You did well; hang in there. Saturday will be here quickly, and you will get a better idea of what the truth is at that time.

My prayers are with you 

[raytamtay3]

Thanks. It wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be though. I was just letting her talk and she kept asking why I wasn't saying anything. I was choosing my words very carefully. .

[jellibeans]

Hopefully you get a clearer picture on Saturday... . I would be careful to promise or even suggest to your dd that you are working to get her out... . once she knows that she will stop any work she is doing and just wait things out. Try to listen like you have done and say you will look into what she has told you but I would really stop from giving her the idea her stay there is limited... . hang in there... .

Your dd might be depressed... . I think that is one of the stages they go through and is very natural before she can start working on getting better etc and working with the T... . have you received a treatment plan yet?

[Being Mindful]

I would not make a big deal about an "emergency" meeting. She will grab onto this and keep putting the pressure on.

Ray - I know this is really hard. Try, try, try to take out your emotions in this. Don't react or make an emotional decision. I know you want relief from the pain that you are experiencing with her being in an RTC. I remember the pain myself. I can remember looking and wanting any excuse I could use to justify getting my daughter out. Re-read what you wrote about your DD's version of what has happened there. Do you really believe that your daughter is that innocent and that everybody else has caused all these problems for her.

This might not be the right RTC, but you have to plough on then to find the right setting. The right setting is so VERY crucial.

[Verbena]

Your daughter is playing you.  None of what she is telling you fits with the information you've been given about her behavior.  For what she is saying to be truthful it would mean that the staff (I'm thinking mainly of the e-mail you received) is making up very specific lies about her. I especially don't buy the part about being too fearful to leave her house because of a bully. 

I hope your meeting goes well this weekend, and I agree with Being Mindful that I would not use the word "emergency meeting" in front of your DD.  Stay strong and don't fall for her manipulation.  She's going to pull out all the stops to get what she wants and if you don't give in, she may just turn a corner and start doing better. 

[raytamtay3]

Darn. Here I thought I handled it pretty well by telling her that she needs to give it more time, that I can't make any promises but will express her concerns to her CM. I didn't see that as making any false promises. I'm going to be more straightforward when I see her tomorrow though.  I did tell her about the emergency meeting in an effort to let her know her concerns are being addressed. She kept saying it's a discharge meeting and I said no it isn't.

I feel like I always say and do the wrong thing.

[raytamtay3]

How common is it for RTCs to use physical restrains at their facilities?

[lever.]

I don't think you have said the wrong thing Raytam as long as it is absolutely clear that the meeting is an opportunity to discuss any difficulties and is NOT about leaving.

The outcome may be looking for ways she needs to adjust her own behaviour to get the best out of the facility but if there are genuine concerns about how things are handled they need to be discussed.

Its ok to let her express herself and listen but that doesn't mean she is going to get what she wants if it isn't in her interests.

Good luck tomorrow with the visit

[jellibeans]

Ray I feel like your dd had conduct disorder or ODD... . she is going to fight getting the help she needs and it is going to take time for her to commit... . I am concerned that if she is moved from this place too soon she will fall into a pattern of resisiting and being moved again. I understand your concerns but realize that your dd is going to do or say anything to get out of there so don't take what she says as truth.

RTC will use restrains especially if your dd is resisting or being violent. She is testing her limits right now and trying to see how far she can push.

[Being Mindful]

Ray, Do you mean like a physical hold of staff to a child? If so, it is common. However, in my experience there is a process to it... . it is defined upfront in the treatment plan, there is a threshold to how many per month and if it is exceeded, then there is a mandatory follow up which in our case was called an administrative meeting where everything is reviewed by the entire treating staff to see what changes are needed to reduce the number of holds. Also, in our plan we were called within 24 hours to be advised that a hold took place. Any questions, let me know.

[raytamtay3]

I don't think you have said the wrong thing Raytam as long as it is absolutely clear that the meeting is an opportunity to discuss any difficulties and is NOT about leaving.

The outcome may be looking for ways she needs to adjust her own behaviour to get the best out of the facility but if there are genuine concerns about how things are handled they need to be discussed.

Its ok to let her express herself and listen but that doesn't mean she is going to get what she wants if it isn't in her interests.

Good luck tomorrow with the visit

She isn't going to be in the meeting. She'll be at school.

Our treatment plan meeting is scheduled for April 10th.  Since now I have to attend the emergency meeting, I'm going to have to conference in to the treatment plan meeting. Her father will be there for that one in person. I just can't take off twice due to work obligations.

[jellibeans]

Ray I think you will know more if this is a good fit for your dd after you get the treatment plan... . I hope your emergency meeting goes well and you get some answers.

[lever.]

That's good. It will give the opportunity to have a very honest and open chat with the staff so you can get a feel for the place, and you can express any worries without your DD using it as a way to manipulate.

I agree that when you have a full care plan things will become clearer

[raytamtay3]

So part of this is going to be a rant/vent because I find it therapeutic to get it out in writing rather than verbally to the attended recipient. Lol.

My exh had mentioned about bringing hoagies to the RTC so we all could have lunch. I thought that was very nice of him. But I told him how I had talked to DD and she was really craving Taco Bell. Since he asked what she wanted him to bring, I told him he could bring Taco Bell and gum at her request. I told him that there isn’t any Taco Bells on the way to the RTC because it’s in a remote part of town, so he’d have to go to the one around the corner from his house…

He was already agitated because we initially were to meet at the RTC at 1:00 for our visit but the CM there asked us to come by 12:00/12:15 as she had an appointment. I was fine with it but exh started texting me derogatory comments about the woman. He is very prejudiced…I didn’t respond but I was annoyed at that.  He also told me how the woman would have to throw him out because he was running late and planned on getting his full time in…I did not respond in an effort to not trigger him more.

When I was about 20 minutes from the RTC, he textd me asking me to stop at a Taco Bell to get DD’s meal.  I reminded him that there was no Taco Bells on the way to the place.  Ten minutes later, he texted me “well I guess I’m standing in an imaginary place” alluding to the fact he was at a Taco Bell. I just copied that quote from my cell phone just now mind you…

So I get there on time and we had to wait 40 minutes for him to arrive.  He showed up with two hoagies, one that he said was for me and one that he said was for him…no Taco Bell. I asked him where the Taco Bell was, and he said he wasn’t able to get over on the road to get it… (can you see what I’m dealing with here people?).  Anyway, I let it go… but I felt so bad for DD. Not only DD, but DS as he didn’t bring him anything either! And DS said he was hungry. So long story short on the food situation, DD and DS shared mine and I was 100% fine with that.

The CM told me before exh arrived that she wanted to speak with him because once again he was rude to the receptionist. I asked that she please wait until after the visit because he was already upset about being late. She said ok.

While I was waiting for exh and DS to arrive, DD and I had the opportunity to talk. She told me everything that has been going on. At one point the CM came in and told her I was there to visit and not hear her complaints. I spoke up to the CM and calmly told her that it was fine and that I’d rather her get it out before her brother came. Red flag #1.

At our county CM’s request, DD documented everything that occurred and I’m going to use those notes to write this. Some of them were signed off from witnesses and some of those witnesses were staff members.

3/21/14 – Staff T and E put me in unnecessary restraint, cursed at me and encouraged me to “not get big” with them and to go outside and fight other youth saying I’m too scared to do ___.  False accusation of spitting on staff.

3/21/14 – Requested to press charges on A (youth) and waiting for supervisor to come down and talk about it and make call to police. A outside door trying to break door down and get to me. Witnessed.

Asked to see supervisor again to press charges. Nobody came yesterday when asked repeatedly to see supervisor to press charges.

3/22/14 – Going to DHS to file report on A (youth). Requested to call stepdad & CMO. Mrs. M refused to sign witness form. Didn’t let me call CMO because they didn’t want me to go home. Refused me right to call cops on staff who was encouraging fight.

3/23/14 – 4:15 PM Got into fight with A. Requested to go to DHS to press charges. Requested to talk to therapist several times all day. Asked for ice repeatedly.  (DD claims youth punched her in the face and head).

7:29 PM – Still haven’t spoken to therapist. A & N still consistently trying to come after me.

3/24/14 – 7:30 am – Never saw therapist. Never got ice. Never went to DHS.

3/24/14 – Staff let youth do mean skit about me in A.R.T.

3/24/14 – Mrs. B and Mrs. D constantly doing my triggers after telling them what triggers me. Asked not to read because had a headache. Said I was refusing.

3/25/14 – Mrs. B joining in with kids about how teacher didn’t “hit me” (DD claims the woman who restrained her punched her in face "not hard but still"... Asked her repeatedly to stop talking about it and to stop bringing it up and she said don’t tell me what to do. And kept talking about it and bringing it up.

3/26/14 – When arriving at VQ after I went to the psychologist, everyone was in the school for A.R.T. and I sat on the other side of the room away from A. I sat by Mr. S, Mrs. R & Mrs. J. When it was time for everyone to lineup, A walked up to me and hawked spit in my face (left eye & hair) and I got up and staff restrained me and A, then she left. Requested to press charges. (DD was taken to the hospital as protocol and they had to numb DD's eye to scrae out food partacles in her eye from spit).

PS: Every time something is about to happen, I always try to tell staff beforehand and they never do anything. I would like to press charges please see me tomorrow.

3/27/14 – Still haven’t went to DHS to press charges asked again!

3/28/14 – Still haven’t pressed charges.

[raytamtay3]

DD asked if I could take her next store to press charges for the assault. I said ok. The CM tried to come up with an excuse to prevent me from doing so. Claimed nobody would be in the office to receive DD when she came back. Flag #2. I asked her if she could please try and have it arranged that someone would be there when we got back as DD. She ended up arranging it.

We went over to the DHS which is on the grounds of where my DH works. Not sure if I mentioned before that my DH works right next store to the RTC. Unfortunate he doesn’t know much about the place and neither does anyone at his work. The officer we spoke to was very nice. He said how he was very familiar with the girl DD is having trouble with and pulled out a file on her. Red Flag #3. She's only been there 4 months.

When we got back to the RTC nobody was in the office. Nobody was on the grounds. No security anywhere whatsoever. Anyone could walk in.  Red flag #4.  DD had to go looking for a staff member.

I went in with an open mind. But I have bad vibes still about this place. Even more so after going there now. I don’t feel like my DD is getting the therapy she needs, it is not a secured facility, no cameras around which I feel there should be especially for allegations that my DD is making, this girl that is harassing DD seems psyschotic and I don’t like how three times now she’s gotten to DD which means staff aren’t as on top of things as I initially thought, the staff seem cold and ignorant, nobody calls me back, I’ve asked to speak to DD’s therapist repeatedly and haven’t once, etc.

I plan on raising my concerns Wednesday. But as of right now, I don’t feel that it’s the right place for her. I did not tell DD this though. She needs a lot of help.

She was playing her father and me against each other there. She saw that she wasn’t getting over on me, so tried working on him. They exchanged many glances at each other when I was talking about things. DD tried to get us into an argument by asking why I don’t tell her father anything, etc. She someone managed to get a paper clip that she straightened out and anytime I said something she didn’t like, she started scratching up the table we were sitting at and so I took it from her.

[Verbena]

I'm sorry for the trouble with your ex and for the bad feelings you have about the RTC.  I thought about you on Saturday.  Were you able to talk with anyone to get their perspective on your dd's behavior and/or complaints? 

[raytamtay3]

I'm sorry for the trouble with your ex and for the bad feelings you have about the RTC.  I thought about you on Saturday.  Were you able to talk with anyone to get their perspective on your dd's behavior and/or complaints? 

Thanks Verbena! No, I will discuss everything with them Wednesday at the "emergency meeting".

[jellibeans]

Hang in there Ray... . I look forward to hearing how the meeting goes on Wednesday... . you have some valid concerns.

[peaceplease]

Surprised that they have no cameras!      I hope you can find alternatives.  Look forward to meeting results.

[lever.]

Without saying too much to DD I would now be doing serious research into alternatives.

You are walking a delicate path between not allowing her to manipulate and being open to hearing genuine concerns and you have also seen problems for yourself.

I would still avoid any knee-jerk reactions though and see what can be addressed in the meetings.

She certainly needs residential treatment. Good luck with the meeting on Wednesday

[raytamtay3]

Yeah I really don't know if these are legitimate concerns or if I'm trying to find anything to have her moved. Isn't that sad? I can't even determine whether or not I'm being overly critical for the wrong reasons? But based off of what I wrote, do you feel as I am? 

[jellibeans]

The hardest problem I had when my dd was in RTC was giving up control... . it really was as simple as that... . there were things I didn't like about the place at all and at times I just had to address that with the people in charge... . I really tried not to let dd see my worry. I do not consider myself a control freak but I have that fixer mentality... . I want to go in and make everything better... . I want to protect my dd from hurt when at times she needs to go through some hurt as a natural process of growing up... . these kids are so sensitive and that is probably why we want to protect them even more... . try to go in with an open mind... . I really think you will know more once you get a treatment plan... . that is when you can see if they know what they are doing. Hang in there

[raytamtay3]

I was just bcc'd on a response that our county CM sent to exh. He sent her an email at 8:00 PM last night saying how we want DD returned to the shelter until we find another RTC for her! That's what DD said she wanted! It's not what I said was going to happen! I have not made a decision about it yet until after our meeting tomorrow. This is exactly why I did not want him involved. DH is livid. I'm use to this crap.  I sent ex an email letting him know I did not make that decision and that I'm waiting to see how the meetings go.

[lever.]

It's really hard to say Raytam. Its difficult when we know our children aren't always going to be honest with us but also not all treatment centers are good. I would just listen carefully in the meeting and try to trust your own judgement. I would be quietly researching alternatives though. Do let us know how the meeting goes.

[lever.]

Just cross posted with you. You would have thought the CM would have spoken to you first given that she knows the situation. Grrr! I would e-mail her

[raytamtay3]

Just cross posted with you. You would have thought the CM would have spoken to you first given that she knows the situation. Grrr! I would e-mail her

Thing is, she does know the situation. But she got angry with me a few weeks ago when I was trying to tell her and the RTC how he was related to getting DD help and she told me he has rights because he's her father! No he doesn't. He relinqueshed his rights to me when he willingly gave me full physical and legal custody because he could not handle her and gave up. But because DD said she wants him involved, I'm allowing it. But not fully. He has no say in her treatment. I do appreciate the fact she bcc'd me.

But like the RTC had to learn for themselves, she'll learn for herself because he did not like her response and he'll show her his true colors too. She told him that since she is an an RTC, it's the RTC who would recommend a transfer. That she is going to raise her concerns but that it's their call.

He's been blowing up my phone and I refuse to answer it.

[lever.]

I misunderstood a bit. I thought she had informed the RTC without telling you. It all sounds really frustrating though. Stay strong, they'll see what he's like soon enough.

[Verbena]

The hardest problem I had when my dd was in RTC was giving up control... . it really was as simple as that... . there were things I didn't like about the place at all and at times I just had to address that with the people in charge... . I really tried not to let dd see my worry. I do not consider myself a control freak but I have that fixer mentality... . I want to go in and make everything better... . I want to protect my dd from hurt when at times she needs to go through some hurt as a natural process of growing up... . these kids are so sensitive and that is probably why we want to protect them even more... . try to go in with an open mind... . I really think you will know more once you get a treatment plan... . that is when you can see if they know what they are doing. Hang in there

I don't have any experience with RTC's, but jellibeans' response above makes sense to me.  Having taught school for 29 years (mostly 13-14 year olds),  I do have experience with dealing with students with behavior problems and communicating with parents/administration from my perspective of what is happening.  Many times the version of events the child told parents was a long way from the truth.  Once parents got a completely different version of the behavior from the adult in the classroom who was dealing with the problem, they often saw the problem differently.  But sometimes they had parents (like your ex) who played the blame game just like their child was doing, undermined the authority of the teacher/administration, and ultimately made the situation so much worse.  

Everyone involved in this situation you're dealing with should be accountable--the facility itself, the other kids there, and your dd.    You've been given a lot of information already about your dd's behavior there, and it fits with the behavior you know--behavior that helped put her there.  She doesn't seem to be showing any accountability for that behavior and is focusing only on what everyone else is doing wrong and how she is being mistreated.  That's what pwBPD do best.  Their own accountability is never brought up because they are always the victim.  

That's not to say that you shouldn't have concerns and address them on your daughter's behalf.  The lack of security cameras and lax security would worry me, too.  Maybe this RTC can help her, or maybe it can't.  You will have a better idea once you talk to the staff at your meeting tomorrow.  

You have a reasonable expectation that the staff is doing everything they can to

keep all the kids there safe, hold them responsibile for their actions, and treat their issues as best they can.  I don't think it's reasonable, though, to expect that your daughter won't have confrontations and issues with other students and staff at any RTC.   You have too much experience with her having those problems in other settings. And if you move her to another RTC--and maybe you really will need to at some point--she will very likely have the same problems, until she decides to make some changes and accept some help.  

I'll be thinking of you tomorrow and praying your meeting goes well.  

[raytamtay3]

I've said it before and I'm going to continue saying it. I don't know what I would do without this forum! You all have a way of making me see things for what they truly are. Yes while I am in no way a control freak, it IS hard giving up control over the situation with my DD even though it's what I've been aiming at accomplishing by giving some control to a place to get her the help that I could not provide solely. And yes, our children have such heightened emotions that it's hard to remember that what they are feeling may not really be what someone without a disorder would feel to such a degree. And that she ISthere for a reason. We HAVE dealt with the same behaviors at home which is why she is in an RTC to begin with.

I do have concerns. And they will be addressed tomorrow. But I have to keep reminding myself that what DD tells me are half truths from her distorted perception. I have to trust, albeit with a bit of a guard up, that the RTC knows what they are doing. And I have to stop letting my ex to get in to my head.

Thank you everyone. For making me wake the hell up!  :'(

[raytamtay3]

I'm relieved and satisfied with how the meeting went this morning and got all of my concerns and questions addressed satisfactorily. DD will remain where she is.

She's playing everyone against each other. Manipulating everyone. And once again I almost fell for it.  I was amazed to hear everyone out and just shook my head understandingly because every single thing they said is happening is exactly what I've deal with for years with her.  Damn... .

[Rapt Reader]

raytamtay3... . You did great!

I'm so glad you didn't impulsively react to your daughter and Ex, and that you gave the situation the time and clarity it deserved.

Was your Ex there, too? Just curious if he was, and if he agrees with your decision to keep your daughter there.

She's playing everyone against each other. Manipulating everyone. And once again I almost fell for it.  I was amazed to hear everyone out and just shook my head understandingly because every single thing they said is happening is exactly what I've deal with for years with her.  Damn... .

Very good insights, raytamtay 

[raytamtay3]

raytamtay3... . You did great!

I'm so glad you didn't impulsively react to your daughter and Ex, and that you gave the situation the time and clarity it deserved.

Was your Ex there, too? Just curious if he was, and if he agrees with your decision to keep your daughter there.

She's playing everyone against each other. Manipulating everyone. And once again I almost fell for it.  I was amazed to hear everyone out and just shook my head understandingly because every single thing they said is happening is exactly what I've deal with for years with her.  :)amn... .

Very good insights, raytamtay  

Thanks. Even dh said he could see the relief in my face (he came).  No, ex wasn't there. He will be attending the treatment plan meeting next week. I will have to attend that one via conference call.  I did send him an email simply stating "I just wanted to let you know that I addressed the concerns I had relative to Vision Quest and am happy with the answers and feedback I received. So I decided to have T stay there.  Hopefully next week you will feel the same amount of confidence I have for the place at the treatment plan meeting and can use that opportunity to bring up the concerns you have as well".

[Rapt Reader]

Your note to your Ex sounds very good!

In normal life (   ) a note like that would do the trick to calm a concerned father down, and to allay his fears.

I hope he reacts well, and things go smoothly from now on (Okay... . wishful thinking?   )

[maxen]

that's great news raytam. it would have been an awful stress arranging for another placement. very happy for you.

[raytamtay3]

Thanks Maxen.

Our district CM attended the meeting today. She is wonderful. She truly is an advocate for DD and she spoke up about the concerns she had and they were duly noted by the head honcho. However, not only was she planning on going on maternity leave in August, but she informed me today that she may be leaving the organization she's with very shortly due to her being given an additional county to work in. She currently works in our county and in addition works at an RTC for adults. So her plate was already full.  I'm so sad to hear that she will be leaving. She told me that we will be in good hands should she do so. But I don't like change. Duh. .  So to think someone else is now going to have to be schooled on DD's situation is a little scary. But whatcha gonna do?

Now that I have a moment to give more details, I am.  :)D and a few other girls were suspended from school last week for leaving class and running around the halls. So she was written up AGAIN which will delay her getting out of the P1 which will delay home visits. The therapist said that DD tells her how she is suppose to conduct therapy. Demands calls. They said that all of the children are permitted one 15 minute call and it's usually after therapy but that if a child is being downright disrespectful, that right is taken away. I do agree with this. My DD is very bosy and feels like they should be catering to her. Acts like she is the boss. They said the girl she is having issues with has wanted to "cease fire" but DD is refusing to do so (that's because she's painted this girl black).  :)D told me that her therapist wasn't real therapist. That she had tons of tattoos and peircings. She has one nose ring... . There is an investigation going on about the incidents that have occurred between DD and the girl she has problems with. DD was told that due to it being an investigation, she not permitted to talk to anyone (other than me) about it. But DD has been talking about to other youths. Tons of problems at school as the teacher is painted black. Not participating in therapy as the therapist is painted black. Same old same old. I truly believe DD will need to be here the full 9 to 12 months at this point because she clearly is not taking any responsibility, is blaming everyone else and still doing whatever she wants to do. However, it ha only been two weeks.

I was informed that cameras are actually in the process of being installed. DCM (":)istrict CM"addressed the use of undo force when a staff member physically remived DD's hat from her head in school when DD refused and pulled her hair as a result. Head honcho made note and said it will be addressed with staff member and did not seemed pleased.   :)CM advised that a rumor was going around school that DD was doing sexual favors for boys. Head honcho was livid it was not brought to his attention and is investigating. Today was the first day I heard of this one. RTC CM confirmed this and said she thought nothing of it. Have feeling she's gonna get reprimanded for it... .

[raytamtay3]

I'm sure this topic is going to be maxed out and I appologize for the constant posts. Believe it or not, you all are pretty much the only objective support I have at this time.

I mentioned to my exh via text message that I thought it best if he and I took turns going to visit with DD every other weekend. I didn't tell him why, but the reason for that is because DD openly tried to start trouble between the two of us last weekend by making comments to me about why I don't tell him anything in addition to asking me questions about my personal business that I know were fueled by him and which made me feel uncomfortable. It was so obvious what she was doing. Not to mention the glances they made at each other. I just don't want to expose myself to the abuse anymore.  :'( Plain and simple. It takes over an hour and twenty minutes to drive up there and I'll be damned if I'm going to torure myself like that again.  His response "I'm going every weekend"... . So I decided I am not going tomorrow. Let him break the news to her that "I'm making her stay". Because that is sure to set her off and I have my son anyway and refuse to subject him and myself any longer to her harsh words and actions. Do I feel guilty about not going? Hell yeah I do. Will I beat myself up over not going? Yup. But I am in self-preservation mode right now. I'm just so sick and tired of being made the villan.

[jellibeans]

Ray

taking time for yourself is the best thing you can do right now... use this time to recoup and recover... . don't feel guilty... . your dd is where she needs to be and getting help. Putting boundaries in place with your ex is good... . try to keep out of the power struggle with him... . no one wins it that kind of situation. Have a great weekend!

[pessim-optimist]

I think you are making a very wise decision, raytamtay. 

... . I have my son anyway and refuse to subject him and myself any longer to her harsh words and actions. Do I feel guilty about not going? Hell yeah I do. Will I beat myself up over not going? Yup. But I am in self-preservation mode right now. I'm just so sick and tired of being made the villan.

I have perhaps a couple of uncomfortable introspective questions for you (no need to answer if you don't feel like it), or maybe just something to think about:

What is it that makes you feel guilty for doing what's wise, and healthy?

What do you think you will regret, that will result in you beating yourself up over it?

[raytamtay3]

Typing from phone.To answer ur question, quite frankly its my history. For whatever reason Im the type of person who riddles themselves with guilt. Be it something i said out of anger or did out of spite, it literally will cunsume me. The guilt that is. Lately i do think ive gotten better. But as far as dd is concerned, i guess its a sense of obligation. Hmmm. As i type this i now see what the FOG is all about. Im ok this morning. I feel a little bad not going but glad at least dad is.

[Rapt Reader]

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