Both sons out of control because of recreational drugs are they BPD?

[lbjnltx]

Please use this time that your son's are under the care and responsibility of the professionals to rest, bond with your wife, and take care of yourself.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Calm Waters]

Hi yes we will try to however with both sons in hospital ill thats easier said than done. The antipsychotics seem to be having some impact on the older one I had a good conversation with him yesterday, however we have had many false dawns with him. The younger one cant really understand why he is there but early days with him. I am trying to fathom why this has happened, which may be futile, but I wonder what could have led to such a tragic set of circumstances:

My maternal grandmother attempted to murder my mother both in utero and after being born as my mother was an unwanted child, my grandfather effectively raped my grandmother within the marriage. My mother was terribly abused as a child a real cinderella hated by her mother.

As a result my mother parentified me as I myself was unwanted by my father who was ready to leave the marriage before my mother tricked him in  to having me, so I was conceived by my mother to maintain the marriage and I was rejected by my father until I was around 9 years old. I became a surrogate husband i now realise at an age when I was far to young to deal with my BPD suicidal mother - hence my BPD traits.

However -

My Father is very NPD and as a result I also have strong NPD traits that I feel have protected me throughout my life by keeping my BPD under control and helping me to look after my health and well being, I have a very strong self preservation instinct despite being very emotional and prone to bouts of narcissistic rage.

My wife is the daughter of Hungarian jewish immigrants who escaped the holocaust and the hungarian uprising but still were seriously scarred by the war. My wife was also sexually abused as a child by a teacher, these memories were repressed until around the time she became pregnant with my older son. The invasion of pregnancy triggered the repressed memories and that caused a major crisis in our relationship at the time. However through therapy she has largley recovered but she has strong BPD traits.

We have been together 33 years through all of the recent tragedies and the earlier joys but I cant help feeling that all of this and more has had an impact on my sons... .and this is the tip of the iceberg! - any views? - calm

[Kwamina]

Both you and your wife have been through quite a lot. These are very difficult things to deal with, traumatic on many levels. In spite of everything both of you have managed to survive which says a lot about your character and resilience I am glad the therapy has helped your wife so much.

I have some views indeed. I'm actually mostly active on the coping & healing board for people with BPD family-members within their family of origin.

Taking a look at the generations that came before can be very helpful in understanding why certain things are the way they are. Perhaps the stories and resources on the Coping & Healing Board can help you process and heal from what you've been through:

Coping and Healing from a BPD Parent, Sibling, or Inlaw

You mention being made a surrogate husband, we have an article that deals with these kinds of issues. Here's an excerpt from the article:

The term "emotional incest" was coined by Kenneth Adams, Ph.D. to label the state of cross-generational bonding within a family, whereby a child (normally of the opposite sex) becomes a surrogate spouse for their mother or father. "Emotional Enmeshment" is another term often used. And the term "emotional parentification" describes a similar concept - it describes the process of role reversal whereby a child is obliged to act as parent to their own parent.

Many parents and children are close. Closeness is healthy and desirable. The difference between a healthy close relationship and an incestuous one is that in a healthy close relationship a parent takes care of a child's needs in an age-appropriate way without making the child feel responsible the emotional needs of the parents needs. In an emotionally incestuous relationship, instead of the parent meeting the needs of the child, the child is meeting the needs of the parent.

Emotional incest happens when the natural boundary between parental caregiver, nurturer, and protector is crossed and the child becomes the defacto caregiver, nurturer and protector of the parent. This typically occurs when a the marriage unravels or when there is a broken family dynamic (e.g., substance abuse, infidelity, mental illness and the dependency upon a child increases.  One or both parent may engage the child in talks about adult issues and adult feelings to a child as if they were a peer. The child may be called upon to satisfy adult needs such as intimacy, companionship, romantic stimulation, advice, problem solving, ego fulfillment, and/or emotional release.

Do you feel like this excerpt applies to your experiences growing up?

You can read the entire article here:

Was Part of Your Childhood Deprived by Emotional Enmeshment/Incest

In the right-hand side margin of the Coping & Healing board, you can also find the so-called Survivors' Guide for adults who suffered childhood abuse. I very much encourage you to take a look at it. The guide aims at taking you from survivor to thriver through 3 major stages:

1. Remembering -->  2. Mourning --> 3. Healing.

[Calm Waters]

Thank you that sounds very resonant, I have read many books about npd BPD acoa and so on but there is always more to learn and reinforce in dealing with such complexity so I will have a look. We are visiting them bot today, the younger one is intent on appealing and getting out the older one is happy to be contained for a while until he is more stable but he has spent most of the last year in hospitals. Hoping to alos talk to the psychiatrists today about treatment plans, its a full time job this family! - calm

[Kwamina]

Hi Calm

I am glad you are there to support your sons.

How did the visit to your sons go? Did you get to talk with the psychiatrist about their treatment plans?

... .its a full time job this family! - calm

Fortunately we are also here 24/7 for support and advice

[Calm Waters]

We met with the younger ones psychiatrist on Friday and he is very happy with progress, it appears that the psychosis may have bee=n drug related and temporary so we expect he will be back home by the weekend. The older one is more complex and his behaviour and mood are still very erratic, his glrlfriend is losing patience and we see his psychiatrist on Wednesday. I would like something more invasive as he is not responding to antipsychotics and is no better than we he jumped and nearly died last year - calm

[Kwamina]

Thanks for the update Calm.

I am very happy that your youngest son is making progress

The older one is more complex and his behaviour and mood are still very erratic, his glrlfriend is losing patience and we see his psychiatrist on Wednesday. I would like something more invasive as he is not responding to antipsychotics and is no better than we he jumped and nearly died last year - calm

In your last post before this you also spoke of hoping to discuss treatments plans, did you get to do that then or will this meeting Wednesday be the first time you'll be able to have a good discussion with his psychiatrist? Do you feel like his psychiatrist agrees with the idea of more invasive treatment?

[Calm Waters]

The younger one will probably be discharged today after a review with his psychiatrist. However the older one is a nightmare again, his girlfriend came away from the hospital in tears, she had brought him some of his favourite chocolates and he threw them on the floor and said he didn't want to see her again; she has been so kind and patient with him and she recently lost her father to cancer, I felt like hitting him so ungrateful and cruel, anyway he refused to see or speak to me just sitting in his squalid hospital room with his clothes strewn all over the floor, it felt like a real relapse in his thinking and behaviour. He was then making ups stories that his girlfriend had threatened him - paranoid delusions - he is also refusing to consider an alteration to his medicine. We are meeting with his psychiatrist this afternoon - what joy!

[livednlearned]

I wonder if he sees signs of kindness as a form of invalidation, in a way. He is so filled with self-loathing he wants to take his life, and the kindness from his girlfriend can be counter to how he sees himself. He may need to split her black in order to validate the feelings of despair he feels about himself, his life.

It doesn't help much, I know. We want to love our loved ones and hope it makes everything all better. It is so painful to learn that our intentions, our love, has limits.

I wonder if there is a way to engage with him in ways that allow you both to decide how much contact there will be, and for how long.

It takes a lot of patience.

[Calm Waters]

Livednlearned that certainly seems to be a a facet that fits with his past history of self loathing. We met his psychiatrist yesterday, he will remain on a section and will be injected with medication if he refuses to take it orally, he will not be allowed to leave for at least two months and when his appeal agianst his section fails next week he will be very angry and blame us I am sure. His girlfriend is keeping a distance as am I, frankly I have had enough and would just turn my back on him but my wife is committed to seeing this through whatever, so yet again our marriage is under even more strain.

The younger one is home and seems significantly better but its early days and we are remaining very vigilant.

So it s another hospital Xmas, last year he was in the spinal injuries unit and my wife's sister died, year before that my mother died, year before that my ex girlfriend nearly died of an overdose that led to my breakdown... .I feel like a punchbag!

[livednlearned]

I'm so sorry for all your losses, Calm. And having a loved one (for you, two loved ones) with mental health issues, not to mention substance abuse -- it's a lot for one person.

I've lived in several countries where the everyday, ordinary human suffering brought me to my knees. The poverty, the health issues alone, the filth, little children who were starving, emaciated starving animals, brutality, it depressed me to the depths of my being. So much suffering.  :'(

What pulled me through is recognizing how a look, a touch, a small gesture of support can lighten the load just enough to make it seem bearable, if even only for a fleeting moment. We aren't alone in our suffering. It doesn't seem like much, but when the suffering starts to crush us under its weight, letting others bear witness to our pain can bring some comfort. It might not make everything all better; nonetheless it makes a difference.

I hope you'll keep sharing and let us know how you're doing.

You're not alone. 

LnL

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Calm Waters]

So … some progress the younger one is now back home and whilst he is still not ' himself' he is stable and taking his medication, its very difficult for me being around him, for example its nearly midnight and he has started cooking bacon! still treading on eggshells and expect I will be for a very long time, probably until he actually gets on with his life and leaves us in peace.

Having  left the hospital last Wednesday in tears with the older ones girlfriend I have had no contact from him at all, big relief actually, his girlfriend received a text apology for his behaviour, so that a breakthrough in some respects but I have lost count of the number of hollow apologies in the nearly 1000 texts I have received from him in the last 3 months, most of them telling me he wants to die! so I'm not holding my breath.

In the meantime we had our last session with a wonderful clinical psychologist who has been helping us for the last 9 months to recover from the trauma of his suicide attempt. I'm sad not to be continuing with her as I have slightly fallen into the common trap of projecting my feelings on to her and I am a little bit smitten but very conscious of the dynamic, she has been an enormous help. We are shortly to start family work with support from the NHS which will be a challenge for all of us as we are a highly reactive family, we all have BPD traits - beam me up scotty!

[Kwamina]

So … some progress the younger one is now back home and whilst he is still not ' himself' he is stable and taking his medication, its very difficult for me being around him, for example its nearly midnight and he has started cooking bacon! still treading on eggshells and expect I will be for a very long time, probably until he actually gets on with his life and leaves us in peace.

One step at at a time, one day at a time. He's stable now and taking his medication which definitely is a step forward. The fact that he was doing well enough to be sent home is also a sign of his progress. Cooking bacon when it's nearly midnight indeed seems a bit odd, but considering what he's been through recently, for now a bit odd might also be considered a step forward  There is still room for improvement of course, but I am very glad he's doing better.

Having  left the hospital last Wednesday in tears with the older ones girlfriend I have had no contact from him at all, big relief actually, his girlfriend received a text apology for his behaviour, so that a breakthrough in some respects but I have lost count of the number of hollow apologies in the nearly 1000 texts I have received from him in the last 3 months, most of them telling me he wants to die! so I'm not holding my breath.

Your older son unfortunately is still struggling very much. He is in hospital now and hopefully his doctors/psychiatrists will be able to get through to him at some point.

We are shortly to start family work with support from the NHS which will be a challenge for all of us as we are a highly reactive family, we all have BPD traits - beam me up scotty!

I understand why you say this will be a challenge considering everything that is going on. Generally speaking, I do think it is a good thing that you as a family unit will also be getting support. I hope this will help all of you heal and move forward.

[Calm Waters]

I left the hospital in tears again last night, he has smashed his iPhone to pieces, his trousers are stained with urine as he has not been catheterising himself ( nerve damage from suicide attempt, he broke his back) his room reeks of urine, he barely spoke to ma apart from saying " i want to die" after an hour I had had enough, I spoke to the staff about the personal hygiene deterioration and subsequently spoke to various of his care workers today. His appeal hearing is tomorrow. I have not seen him in this poor a state since last year before his suicide attempt, its just so heartbreaking to see my precious son in such distress and not even caring for himself. I sobbed as i drove away but i feel angry, ashamed of him, sad for him, sympathetic a whole range of conflicting emotions, but mostly I am just trying to continue to protect myself from the horror he has inflicted and continues to inflict on me and my family. In hope - Calm

[lbjnltx]

How did the hearing go?  Did a plan get put into place for your son's near future treatment and care?

In hope-lbjnltx

[Calm Waters]

There is another hearing today, the likelihood is that he will be put under a number 3 section which means he is detained indefinately until they are satisfied he is safe. This is a relief in some respects but of course we wish it wasn't so! He is so angry that we have had no text or voice contact since last week, according to the ward staff he is barely engaging spending most of his time in his room. They are offering a range of activities and support but essentially he is acting out and and acting like a child, however he is adamant he is ok when he clearly is not. So I am left with trying to make insurance claims for the lost trip to mexico - £1500, a smashed i phone - £400, I have given up on the TV he smashed a few weeks ago, I just hope he doesn't smash his £1800 Apple macbook which is his main source of entertainment in hospital. We have also discovered he owes a months rent - £1000 on top of the rent on his flat that he was sharing with his girlfriend. She is being amazingly patient for the moment, she will be off  to Mexico with her family and is heartbroken that my son wont be with her but it wouldn't have been safe - its all so sad as he is so loved by us and his friends, is respected locally as a great DJ, has income, a flat a girlfriend, yes he hates himself so much he is rejecting everything he is being offered including our love. We are emotionally drained but coping... .just as his brother also needs a lot of support still. The team offering the family work will engage with both of them over the next few weeks and hopefully they will facilitate meeting with us as a family in February ish, feels like a long way away. Dreading Xmas as the extended family is dealing with a range of issues of their own so we feel very alone apart from a few understanding friends. A plan? well they have changed his medication which he will have to take, beyond that whilst he refuses to engage not much else can be done. Reasoning and pleading has no impact, he seems to have no remorse or insight into how this is affecting us, he cares little for himself, what shreds of self esteem he had have disappeared he feels worthless, evil, abhorrent and as a result REALY REALY ANGRY about the world and everything he feels it has done to him. Thank goodness we have gun control here in the UK or I fear he would be able to vent his anger in the way that has become so commonplace in the USA. Somehow we keep hoping - Calm

[Calm Waters]

He just phoned after his hearing and called me a f****** c*** so I put the phone down - nice!

[Kwamina]

He just phoned after his hearing and called me a f****** c*** so I put the phone down - nice!

This is really unpleasant to have to deal with Calm Waters. I think you did the right thing by hanging up instead of staying on the telephone and letting him verbally abuse you. Your son is clearly struggling and hurting very much and is taking some of that out on you unfortunately.

How is his personal hygiene situation now? Any improvements at all?

And how is your wife handling all these new developments?

[Calm Waters]

I have just returned from the hopsital I stayed an hour and in that time  he said... ." you a f****** c***, and walked off, then came back and told me he wanted a time machine or a gun to blow his brains out and walked off. Then later he sat down and I tried to engage with him but to little effect. I had a chat with his nurse privately then tried again and suggested he try the anti depressants he was being offered, response was i dont need anti depressants i need a time machine or a gun! i Left then he has been ringing me over and over but I am back home now.

[Kwamina]

It's been said before in this thread, you are dealing with a lot and your visit to the hospital proves that again. It seems that the date of his suicide attempt last year correlated with his current downward spiral. I can see how that date would be a massive trigger for him. I hope that as time goes by he will at least stabilize somewhat and take some meds and/or be open to therapy.

[Calm Waters]

Thanks yes I tend to forget that my normal is pretty extreme! He can now be detained for up to 6 months in hospital, my fear is that he is becoming even more institutionalised and each time this happens he will find it harder to adjust to life in the real world. It's his girl friends birthday today and I got a text from her at 2am saying that he had been sending her abusive texts... .on her birthday! I am furious with him as she had hand written a letter she gave to him yesterday that was basically saying ' no pressure I will wait for you and hope you get better and we can be friends to begin with until you are well enough to decide what you want'.  I know he is disordered but he seems to have lost all sense of compassion. I hope she waits for him as I am very fond of her and frankly in the condition he is in he wouldn't find anyone better equipped to deal with his issues, but I expect like everything else in his life he will blow it. I find it hard to consider that this might be something I have to deal with now for the rest of my life. I could use my BPD to just split my psychi and walk away again but I am committed to my wife having put her through that in 2012. I would abandon him but she won't and there seems to be no middle ground, it may sound harsh but I just don't want him in my life any more, part of me wishes he had died a year ago and we could have all moved on, that's how bad it is now... .what a tragedy.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Calm Waters]

more abusive texts today, he is angry now because he is having an injection of anti psychotics, he isn't taking any responsibility for the predicament he is in and is lashing out at all the people who love him, presumably because they are safe! All seems very BPD and i guess I am becoming use to the abuse. Radio 4 in the UK today 'in our time' talking about new research link sleep disorders with mental health issues, very interesting worth listening to on iplayer

[Calm Waters]

Just got a phone call from his girlfriend, I think she has had enough…… they were supposed to be going to Mexico for Xmas, he can't now go and he is sending abusive texts to her as well, I have been counselling her regularly but its a lot for a young person to take, so he is losing his girlfriend, losing his father, losing his mind, possibly losing his flat as a result of a break up with her…. its just so frustrating when he could have such a good life, instead he is so destructive and irresponsible its all falling apart again.

[Kwamina]

This definitely is a very stressful situation for everyone so I understand that his girlfriend is finding it tough to deal with. She has been very patient and kind to him, but this isn't easy. It's sad that things have turned out this way. Things might still change if he at some point would be more open to therapy and/or medication. I remember last year he was also really struggling, yet I believe at some point he did improve somewhat. Unfortunately he got triggered again this year. Right now his state of mind is very concerning indeed, let's hope that he at one point will be able to bounce back from it and this time remain stable.

Take care

[Calm Waters]

Had a scare yesterday, I took him out of the hospital to a local cafe, he got agitated and walked off in the direction of the railway, so I assumed the worst and got a bit panicked, i kept asking him to stop and talk but it was scarily like last year when he jumped from his 5th floor flat window. I got to the station first and told the staff not to let him through, then he headed in to town, at this point I phoned the hospital for help whilst I was trying to maintain sight of him, when he saw me on the phone he became threatening and abusive screaming obsenities at me in front of the Xmas shoppers. A couple of people came to help and he ran off again.By now the hospital had sent a car and were trying to find me. I had to stay still until they located me by which time we had lost him. I spent a frantic hour or so driving around with the staff looking for him then we gave up and went back  to the hospital. As we were walking in he phoned me from a call box and asked as cool as you like - if I wanted to walk back with him - I explained I was back at the hospital and we had been looking for him.My now it had all been reported to the Police. Half an hour later he walked in to the hospital as if nothing had happened , in the meantime I was ragged, traumatised, angry and relieved because at least I could now go home and forget about the little S*it for a while. I am not taking him out agaian and hes confined for a couple of days. I just cant wait for Xmas ! - NOT!

On the plus side the younger one seems to be improving, I have managed to secure him a labouring job after new years with a builder friend and he is starting to see his friends again. - trying to stay - CALM

[lbjnltx]

Oh me oh my!  Glad he came back to the hospital on his own, that's a good thing.  The other part... .it is important to not give them freedoms they are not ready for, it can be overwhelming for them and us.  You did the right thing... .calling the hospital for help.

Hang in there Calm... .a new year is just around the corner.

Glad to hear youngest is doing better.

lbj

[Calm Waters]

Ok just by way of an update the hospital have decided he can come home for a few hours each day at Xmas but not stay over night, in a way this is quite a relief for me. I have had no contact with him since the events of last Sunday, his mother has been to see him and he has had a review meeting with the staff who are managing his case. For my part I do not want to be on my own with him again as I still feel re traumatised and do not wish to get so upset and frightened again, this is a boundary I will stick to until I feel safe with him. His younger brother is still struggling with paranoid thoughts and the dosage of his antipsychotic medication has been increased, at the moment he is manageable but its very distressing to have them both in varying stages of psychotic illness, terrifying in fact. With Xmas now looming the difficulty of having a family gathering becomes very stark and the potential for conflict very high. My London Niece's are all a bit BPD as their mother now deceased was the most difficult BPD I have ever encountered, add in me and my wife stressed to the limit and me feeling resentful, plus an elderly grandma who is deaf Hungarian and BPD and you have a BPD stressfest with two paranoid boys in the mix - oh joy!

Best wishes for Xmas and the New Year to all on the site especially the moderators and ambassadors

[Kwamina]

Thanks for this update Calm. It's still a difficult situation indeed.

Boundaries are primarily for protecting yourself. A lot of very stressful things have happened and since you currently don't feel safe with your oldest son, I totally understand why you don't want to be alone with him.

In spite of everything that's going on, I wish you a Merry Christmas too and a Happy New Year!

[lbjnltx]

I think you are making the best choice for everyone, all things considered.



I know it is hard, especially during a time when family is supposed to be together.  :'(

lbj

[livednlearned]

Hey calm,

I'm sending well wishes your way -- this will be a stressful holiday, something many people, even those without mental illness in the family, can experience.

One positive to focus on is that even though your oldest left, he also called for a ride back. Given how extreme his behavior has been, it is quite meaningful (if not exasperating) that he had the presence of mind to return.

Someone here once said that anxiety is a form of imagination, often about the grief of future loss (as opposed to depression, the grief of past loss). I imagine it will take a lot of effort, if your son does leave the home on Christmas, to stay centered and grounded, and not imagine the worst-case scenario.

Do you feel the hospital is making the right call to allow him a home visit? Perhaps their confidence in his ability to leave temporarily is something you can use to find calm during his visit?