Quotes about relationship compatibility

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Potentially tough love from Jeff Brown... .

"If one person doesn’t want the relationship, then it’s simply not a fit. No sense trying to figure out why they don’t want it. No sense blaming it on their commitment issues. No sense waiting around for them to realize they wanted it after all. Because it doesn’t matter why they don’t want it. What matters is that you are met heart-on by a fully engaged partner. If they don’t want it, then you don’t want it, because you don’t want to be with someone who isn’t there for it fully. That’s the thing about love relationship— it’s an agreement that has to be signed by both souls. If one doesn’t sign, then nothing has been lost. If it’s not a fit for them, it’s not a fit for you either. On to the next adventure we go... ."

And another one... .

"Perhaps the most important question you can ask a potential love partner relates to their relationship with the shadow—their own, and the shadow that emerges in the relationship itself. That is: “How much work are you willing to do on yourself and the relationship when the s*‪#‎t‬ hits the fan? Are you willing to go as deep as we have to go to work it through, or are you only interested in a breezy, low-maintenance relationship?” Few people ever talk about this during the romantic phase, because they are not envisioning the challenges to come. But it is an essential inquiry. I have known many people who were shocked to watch their ‘great love’ walk out the door when the connection required personal accountability and therapeutic work-through. Some of us will brave the journey; others will flee the fire. Some of us will do the work to transform our stories into the light at their source; others will run away with their ‘tales’ between their legs, only to find out later that their tales go with them everywhere they go. If you can determine someone’s willingness at the beginning, you can save yourself a lot of trouble later."


What I sometimes see here on the boards (and I myself had one at one time) are the "yes, but" stories.  There is some big problem with your partner (dysregulation, emotional or physical abuse, addiction) and there's an attempt to rationalize "yes, but he/she is so wonderful in other ways".

And he or she may indeed be wonderful in other ways.  Just like us, our exes (or current partners) are whole people.  To me, that is the point of the quotes above.  Your ex or partner's negative traits, and their level of willingness to work on themselves in the relationship (or not), are part of who they are.  

So, some tough-ish questions from me, for anyone who is still struggling with feelings over their ex or partner, whether you are still in contact or not.  And I'll admit that includes me.  If I was in a happy relationship now, I doubt I'd be thinking about my uBPD ex.  Other than once in the summer, it's been over a year since I've talked to him.  I've dated during that time, but nothing where it was a "go" for both partners, like it says above.  For months I rarely thought of him.  But now, going to those dance classes I have to go past his apartment building on the streetcar, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't hope I saw him on the street or at the station!    

In your childhood, did you have to accept or rationalize abuse, neglect, not getting your needs met in order to feel loved and cared for?  Is that the image of "love" or "relationships" in your head?

Is there some "fear program" running in the background (e.g. "This is the best I can do in a relationship", "I'm being too picky if I hope for more", "everybody has their flaws don't they?", "everyone needs love, I can't abandon him/her", "The sex was the best I ever had", etc. etc. etc.)

Try this statement on for size... .you can have those wonderful traits you were/are so reluctant to give up your ex because of, in a partner who also provides you with the emotional security and intimacy that you need.  You just believe you can't, because of the template in your head of "what a relationship looks like".

That is not to say that you should callously discount your ex in your mind as "damaged goods".  You can still love him or her.  However, the best way for both of you to love your ex may be from afar.

I haven't forgotten what I wrote about Harville Hendrix' Keeping the Love You Find - https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=288681.0;all - I still think those ideas are valid.  That we will inevitably face some "signature" of our childhood relational traumas in our adult relationships, no matter how much individual therapy we get, we will still attract and be attracted to the positive and negative traits of our caregivers.  In that sense, we arguably do have to "accept their flaws".  However, even that kind of transformative partnership is not viable unless both partners are willing to do the work on themselves when conflicts arise.

[eeks]

Potentially tough love from Jeff Brown... .

"If one person doesn’t want the relationship, then it’s simply not a fit. No sense trying to figure out why they don’t want it. No sense blaming it on their commitment issues. No sense waiting around for them to realize they wanted it after all. Because it doesn’t matter why they don’t want it. What matters is that you are met heart-on by a fully engaged partner. If they don’t want it, then you don’t want it, because you don’t want to be with someone who isn’t there for it fully. That’s the thing about love relationship— it’s an agreement that has to be signed by both souls. If one doesn’t sign, then nothing has been lost. If it’s not a fit for them, it’s not a fit for you either. On to the next adventure we go... ."

And another one... .

"Perhaps the most important question you can ask a potential love partner relates to their relationship with the shadow—their own, and the shadow that emerges in the relationship itself. That is: “How much work are you willing to do on yourself and the relationship when the s*‪#‎t‬ hits the fan? Are you willing to go as deep as we have to go to work it through, or are you only interested in a breezy, low-maintenance relationship?” Few people ever talk about this during the romantic phase, because they are not envisioning the challenges to come. But it is an essential inquiry. I have known many people who were shocked to watch their ‘great love’ walk out the door when the connection required personal accountability and therapeutic work-through. Some of us will brave the journey; others will flee the fire. Some of us will do the work to transform our stories into the light at their source; others will run away with their ‘tales’ between their legs, only to find out later that their tales go with them everywhere they go. If you can determine someone’s willingness at the beginning, you can save yourself a lot of trouble later."


What I sometimes see here on the boards (and I myself had one at one time) are the "yes, but" stories.  There is some big problem with your partner (dysregulation, emotional or physical abuse, addiction) and there's an attempt to rationalize "yes, but he/she is so wonderful in other ways".

And he or she may indeed be wonderful in other ways.  Just like us, our exes (or current partners) are whole people.  To me, that is the point of the quotes above.  Your ex or partner's negative traits, and their level of willingness to work on themselves in the relationship (or not), are part of who they are.  

So, some tough-ish questions from me, for anyone who is still struggling with feelings over their ex or partner, whether you are still in contact or not.  And I'll admit that includes me.  If I was in a happy relationship now, I doubt I'd be thinking about my uBPD ex.  Other than once in the summer, it's been over a year since I've talked to him.  I've dated during that time, but nothing where it was a "go" for both partners, like it says above.  For months I rarely thought of him.  But now, going to those dance classes I have to go past his apartment building on the streetcar, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't hope I saw him on the street or at the station!    

In your childhood, did you have to accept or rationalize abuse, neglect, not getting your needs met in order to feel loved and cared for?  Is that the image of "love" or "relationships" in your head?

Is there some "fear program" running in the background (e.g. "This is the best I can do in a relationship", "I'm being too picky if I hope for more", "everybody has their flaws don't they?", "everyone needs love, I can't abandon him/her", "The sex was the best I ever had", etc. etc. etc.)

Try this statement on for size... .you can have those wonderful traits you were/are so reluctant to give up your ex because of, in a partner who also provides you with the emotional security and intimacy that you need.  You just believe you can't, because of the template in your head of "what a relationship looks like".

That is not to say that you should callously discount your ex in your mind as "damaged goods".  You can still love him or her.  However, the best way for both of you to love your ex may be from afar.

I haven't forgotten what I wrote about Harville Hendrix' Keeping the Love You Find - https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=288681.0;all - I still think those ideas are valid.  That we will inevitably face some "signature" of our childhood relational traumas in our adult relationships, no matter how much individual therapy we get, we will still attract and be attracted to the positive and negative traits of our caregivers.  In that sense, we arguably do have to "accept their flaws".  However, even that kind of transformative partnership is not viable unless both partners are willing to do the work on themselves when conflicts arise.

[HurtinNW]

eeks, you made me realize something.

As you know, I adopted kids from foster care. My kids all have challenges, including mental health ones.

Early on a therapist advised me to think of it this way: "Yes, AND... ."

Yes, my daughter has fetal alcohol AND she is a hard worker. Yes, my oldest son has attachment disorder AND he is trying hard to change. My youngest son has drug effects AND he is a good artist... .And so forth.

The difference is by saying yes AND we are empowering the other person to change, as well putting accountability where it belongs. We are being inclusive and yet also establishing boundaries. We are recognizing the whole person including their challenges and their role in change. It is a holistic, loving, optimistic approach.

The problem with Yes, BUT is we diminish the responsibility of the other person and make their challenges something we are avoiding. In a way it is disrespectful to them and to us.

I hadn't really thought before that with my ex I suddenly became a Yes BUT person with him. No one wonder my kids have been so confused. I have treated him the opposite of how I treat them. I have excused/minimized his behaviors instead of throwing everything open to loving reality.

If I had been real I would have said Yes, AND you have serious challenges to a relationship. That would have forced me to take accountability for my role as well as be honest with him instead of sweeping things under the rug. I might have had to decide it wasn't working early on instead of miring everything in the yes but stage.

[unicorn2014]

Thanks weeks, I'll request keeping the love you find and read your post about using one's relationships to move towards wholeness tomorrow as well as read this one again.

My ex is a problem, I married him, had a child with him, that child is now a teenager and doesn't want to talk to him about what's going on her life, and neither do I. I sometimes think if things were different maybe I could have tolerate him, however at the time I asked him to leave I was dependent on him and hadn't deal with my own mental health issues. I would definitely say I am lot happier now that I am on my own.

In terms of my current partner, well, I do feel something for him although I am not happy about the situation. Today at my ACA meeting I pulled a quote about intimacy. Some times I do feel tenderness towards my partner although like I said I am not happy with the status quo. In my particular case I feel like holding the line will allow him to do what he needs to do in order to move the relationship forward. I feel like if I give in to him and give him what he wants, in other words allow him to talk to me anyway he wants, in other words talk to me in a romantic way before he is divorced, the relationship will not move in the direction I want it to. At this point I don't know who is responsible for the delay on his divorce, but I do know its not me. However nobody else holds my interest the way he does.

[eeks]

In terms of my current partner, well, I do feel something for him although I am not happy about the situation. Today at my ACA meeting I pulled a quote about intimacy. Some times I do feel tenderness towards my partner although like I said I am not happy with the status quo. In my particular case I feel like holding the line will allow him to do what he needs to do in order to move the relationship forward. I feel like if I give in to him and give him what he wants, in other words allow him to talk to me anyway he wants, in other words talk to me in a romantic way before he is divorced, the relationship will not move in the direction I want it to. At this point I don't know who is responsible for the delay on his divorce, but I do know its not me. However nobody else holds my interest the way he does.

The point of my original post was to encourage members to examine their "relationship survival patterns" and where they remain in denial.

What I am talking about is probably one of the most difficult phases of the personal healing process.  Letting go of your survival patterns can feel like hurling yourself headlong into the void of un-lovableness, abandonment and death.  I am not exaggerating.

One of my main patterns is "be perfect in order to get love".  What I think I hear in your response is the idea that somehow, if you can just "get it all right" (say or don't say the right things to your partner) you can "make the relationship move in the direction you want it to".  That concerns me.  You detach for you, for your sanity and your values, not for what you think it's going to influence him to do.  Acknowledging that there may be many many difficult emotions along with that... .rage, grief, despair.

So where I was going with my original post was to prompt people to ask, "is that what I had to do in my FOO?  Accept major problems and abuses because those were the people I had to get love from, I was dependent on them?"  And from there, that opens up the possibility of realizing, the people you grew up with are NOT like everyone else, a different kind of intimate relationship is possible, and to somehow create even a sliver of a feeling of possibility that that could happen for you.  

I could generalize that adults who grew up in dysfunctional families have difficulty with trust.  When parents are abusive, neglectful or even just ignore the child's emotional concerns, it can be difficult for that child when they grow up to fully trust intimate relationships with HEALTHY people.  There can be a temptation to try to control things, so that they feel safe... .and in my observation that tends to mean finding an emotionally unhealthy person and trying, via control (action or inaction) to MAKE them into a healthy person.  

You sound very reluctant to let go of the idea that your current relationship is not working.  What I'm hearing is a lot of "if only I just did this... .didn't talk about that... ."  Letting go would not mean forever... .it just means acknowledging that right now, what you are doing to "try to make things go the way you want them to go" is not working.

As I said, that's hard.  I have no doubt that if you choose to do this, there will be challenging times.  It feels like hurling yourself into a void, "But... .but... .if I don't do it this way, how will I ever get love?"  That's where the "trust" thing comes in.  And part of why it's difficult is that nobody else can really tell you how to find that sliver of faith that things can be different.  They can beg, cajole, persuade, confront... .but they can't force you to release your survival patterns, and you can't force yourself either.

Somehow, you need to find your own personal "breadcrumb trail" out of the woods.  For me, I am working through my emotional intimacy issues with friends and the people I meet at dance events.  I find that to shift emotions and direct experience, I need the touch and movement component that talk therapy doesn't have.  Some people might be able to do it with a therapist, though.  And maybe in the context of an intimate relationship, although that really depends on the people.  Both the ability and the willingness have to be there.

The key is, you need someone you can trust to be vulnerable with, to take off your armour (those survival patterns) and trust.  Not necessary to do all of it all at once, getting slowly deeper is OK and probably preferable.  

In my view, the key question for people to ask themselves is, "I have limitations.  My partner has limitations.  Is he/she the right person for me to work through my emotional intimacy limitations with?"

Again, nobody can decide for you, but the real difficulty I see here, based on my own experiences with emotional intimacy, is that there is a certain level of intensity/closeness past which I get scared (triggered) and I pull out my protective "shell".  Many member stories include an element of their pwBPD tending to react (dysregulate) in response to the member's emotions.  In my view, in order to work through our own difficulties, we need someone who can stay present and emotionally engaged when we get triggered (neither backing off/withdrawing nor pushing/forcing us).  That can make a pwBPD a very, very challenging person to do our own emotional healing in tandem with.

[HurtinNW]

"Again, nobody can decide for you, but the real difficulty I see here, based on my own experiences with emotional intimacy, is that there is a certain level of intensity/closeness past which I get scared (triggered) and I pull out my protective "shell".  Many member stories include an element of their pwBPD tending to react (dysregulate) in response to the member's emotions.  In my view, in order to work through our own difficulties, we need someone who can stay present and emotionally engaged when we get triggered (neither backing off/withdrawing nor pushing/forcing us).  That can make a pwBPD a very, very challenging person to do our own emotional healing in tandem with."

I think this is my situation.

I think my relationship survival is to try and have control. I am deeply afraid of being abandoned, abused and hurt. For me the loss of a relationship must mean I did something wrong... .again. If I can find a similar person to my family, and I can change them or better yet they change because they love me, then I will be healed.

Of course it has not worked that way.

[unicorn2014]

Eeks, my pwBPD accused me of withdrawing, and maybe I do. I think my attachment style tends to be avoidant. I in turn 'accuse' him of being clingy, which _really_ offends him. I just said it once and it really offended him. My pwBPD is good for my child and our relationship is good for her, so I need to learn how not to react to him. She actually is better at being detached then I am, its easier for her to let go of boys then it is for me. Her temperament and my pwBPD temperament are more similar then hers and mine.


In terms of FOO and exs, both my father and my ex tend to argue or fight.

In my current relationship I  think at this point what is most embarrassing to me are two things actually, the long distance and the fighting. My pwBPD has a really hard time disengaging from me when we're fighting, if I try to disengage he acts like I'm abandoning him.

I'm replaying the last dysregulation in my  head and it all started when I told him my daughter's crush had given her a hickey and he said he would never do that to me . I have already discussed this on the conflicted board .

[unicorn2014]

"Again, nobody can decide for you, but the real difficulty I see here, based on my own experiences with emotional intimacy, is that there is a certain level of intensity/closeness past which I get scared (triggered) and I pull out my protective "shell".  Many member stories include an element of their pwBPD tending to react (dysregulate) in response to the member's emotions.  In my view, in order to work through our own difficulties, we need someone who can stay present and emotionally engaged when we get triggered (neither backing off/withdrawing nor pushing/forcing us).  That can make a pwBPD a very, very challenging person to do our own emotional healing in tandem with."

I think this is my situation.

I think my relationship survival is to try and have control. I am deeply afraid of being abandoned, abused and hurt. For me the loss of a relationship must mean I did something wrong... .again. If I can find a similar person to my family, and I can change them or better yet they change because they love me, then I will be healed.

Of course it has not worked that way.

In my case I don't care if my pwBPD stays engaged or not when I get triggered, what I need is space without being accused of abandoning, withdrawing, disengaging, etc.

[eeks]

"Again, nobody can decide for you, but the real difficulty I see here, based on my own experiences with emotional intimacy, is that there is a certain level of intensity/closeness past which I get scared (triggered) and I pull out my protective "shell".  Many member stories include an element of their pwBPD tending to react (dysregulate) in response to the member's emotions.  In my view, in order to work through our own difficulties, we need someone who can stay present and emotionally engaged when we get triggered (neither backing off/withdrawing nor pushing/forcing us).  That can make a pwBPD a very, very challenging person to do our own emotional healing in tandem with."

I think this is my situation.

I think my relationship survival is to try and have control. I am deeply afraid of being abandoned, abused and hurt. For me the loss of a relationship must mean I did something wrong... .again. If I can find a similar person to my family, and I can change them or better yet they change because they love me, then I will be healed.

Of course it has not worked that way.

Yep.  I relate to the "loss of the relationship means I did something wrong" belief, and the "I want them to change because they love me" (because I'm worth changing for). 

Where are you at with this emotionally right now?  You recognize that the old pattern does not work, but when you think of letting it go, does the "void" terrify you, or are you starting to see new possibilities?

[HurtinNW]

"Again, nobody can decide for you, but the real difficulty I see here, based on my own experiences with emotional intimacy, is that there is a certain level of intensity/closeness past which I get scared (triggered) and I pull out my protective "shell".  Many member stories include an element of their pwBPD tending to react (dysregulate) in response to the member's emotions.  In my view, in order to work through our own difficulties, we need someone who can stay present and emotionally engaged when we get triggered (neither backing off/withdrawing nor pushing/forcing us).  That can make a pwBPD a very, very challenging person to do our own emotional healing in tandem with."

I think this is my situation.

I think my relationship survival is to try and have control. I am deeply afraid of being abandoned, abused and hurt. For me the loss of a relationship must mean I did something wrong... .again. If I can find a similar person to my family, and I can change them or better yet they change because they love me, then I will be healed.

Of course it has not worked that way.

Yep.  I relate to the "loss of the relationship means I did something wrong" belief, and the "I want them to change because they love me" (because I'm worth changing for). 

Where are you at with this emotionally right now?  You recognize that the old pattern does not work, but when you think of letting it go, does the "void" terrify you, or are you starting to see new possibilities?

Thank you for asking. It feels very supportive and soothing to me to be asked.

I'm struggling emotionally with it. I know the old patterns didn't work. I remember a dream I had early in the relationship, one I told him about. In the dream he and I were in a museum, and there were a series of large glass boxes with monsters inside. I was showing him my monsters, and at the final one, the monster was so horrible that the very glass was frosted with fear. Ex leaned down and said, "Oh, that's the most beautiful one of all!" My heart burst with joy and happiness.

I wanted to show him my monsters (my trauma) and have him love him anyhow. It didn't work.

I need to accept and hold those monsters myself, and heal them, and maybe even watch them change. I really don't have any choice. I have to heal myself, or let myself get healed in productive ways.

Likewise, I had the pattern of thinking that if he really loved me he would want to change his behaviors. That would mean I was worth loving. I wanted unconditional love and acceptance but the truth is I sure wasn't giving it. I can't give it to someone who triggers me. So I am realizing now that perhaps I was being fundamentally unfair. I chose the very person to help me heal that would engage in behaviors that would hurt me more.

Another part of the pattern for me is I want to be the helpless one for a change. I want to be nurtured, cared for, held. I did not get that as a child. So I think I brought a heavy load into the relationship, a lot of needs.

I don't know how to let these patterns go in a relationship so right now I think it would be best for me to be single until I have more trust in myself. It is hard to see other ways of being in adult relationships yet. There definitely is a void.

[doubleAries]

eeks--have you been spying on me? 

Every single bit of this applies to me, and I have recently hurled myself into that void you speak of. And you are right-- "What I am talking about is probably one of the most difficult phases of the personal healing process.  Letting go of your survival patterns can feel like hurling yourself headlong into the void of un-lovableness, abandonment and death.  I am not exaggerating."

Yet I am hanging there, sticking to the detachment I need to do from my ex I have covered in FOO stuff (because it fits him so well). The void isn't as terrifying now as it was at first. And what I replace those old patterns with is starting to become more clear.

The Jeff Brown quotes remind me a lot of a pretty helpful book I read called "he's just not that into you" (the book--not the movie, which is totally different). It's a funny book, but nails it in a succinct way.

[eeks]

Thank you for asking. It feels very supportive and soothing to me to be asked.

 

I'm struggling emotionally with it. I know the old patterns didn't work. I remember a dream I had early in the relationship, one I told him about. In the dream he and I were in a museum, and there were a series of large glass boxes with monsters inside. I was showing him my monsters, and at the final one, the monster was so horrible that the very glass was frosted with fear. Ex leaned down and said, "Oh, that's the most beautiful one of all!" My heart burst with joy and happiness.

What an evocative image.  I believe we all want this, we all want someone to look at our monsters this way.   

I wanted to show him my monsters (my trauma) and have him love him anyhow. It didn't work.

I need to accept and hold those monsters myself, and heal them, and maybe even watch them change. I really don't have any choice. I have to heal myself, or let myself get healed in productive ways.

Yes.  I read some of the articles on the link you posted about AEDP, and it seems to me they'd lean towards the "let yourself get healed" aspect.  That there's something particularly powerful about receiving not only witnessing but also active emotional engagement, a real feeling of connection with another person, while experiencing intense emotions. 

In fact, I would say that our monsters are not really monsters, we only think they are monsters because the way our parents treated us led us to conclude that they were monsters and then we ourselves came to treat them like monsters... .(banish, censor, etc.)  The feelings/behaviours/experiences that we come to believe there is no room for in our relationships.

Of course, we can also practise having a different relationship with our monsters... .begin to approach emotional intensity differently.  If you look in your closet and find there is a monster, what's the first thing most people do, slam the door and run out of the room!   

A simple thing I noticed recently that I think has the potential to be quite helpful is... .when intensity arises... .just hold it right there.  Don't back off, don't push or force through... .just pause there for a moment and see what is really going on.  I have spontaneous insights that way.  It's hard, once I get triggered I often can't pull myself out of self-protective mode, but when I realize this has happened I can go back afterwards and review. 

And for me, the pattern recently is that there are potentially opportunities to connect with others in new ways, but I browbeat myself until I let it pass by.  Safety!  I had an insight just now, it is possible that it's not so much that I fear what will happen, but that I fear not knowing what will happen.  (My mother manages life by trying to always know the worst that could happen, I think she trained me at least partially to do the same)  Wow, this seems like something worth investigating in my personal process.

Likewise, I had the pattern of thinking that if he really loved me he would want to change his behaviors. That would mean I was worth loving. I wanted unconditional love and acceptance but the truth is I sure wasn't giving it. I can't give it to someone who triggers me. So I am realizing now that perhaps I was being fundamentally unfair. I chose the very person to help me heal that would engage in behaviors that would hurt me more.

Some hard-hitting realizations.  When you said you wanted to receive unconditional love but weren't giving it... .me, too.  With my particular variation on it being "I'll give it, but you have to give it first.  I don't want to be the one to take the risk and find out the joke's on me."  Again with that needing to know what's going to happen thing.  Hmm... .

[eeks]

eeks--have you been spying on me? 

All I'm going to say about that is that us cats can be very quiet and fit into small spaces.   

Every single bit of this applies to me, and I have recently hurled myself into that void you speak of. And you are right-- "What I am talking about is probably one of the most difficult phases of the personal healing process.  Letting go of your survival patterns can feel like hurling yourself headlong into the void of un-lovableness, abandonment and death.  I am not exaggerating."

Yet I am hanging there, sticking to the detachment I need to do from my ex I have covered in FOO stuff (because it fits him so well). The void isn't as terrifying now as it was at first. And what I replace those old patterns with is starting to become more clear.

I find this reassuring, especially that what you replace the old patterns with is starting to become clear.  If I read you right, it's almost like the new approaches spontaneously emerge, you don't have to sit there and figure it out? 

[HurtinNW]

Thank you for asking. It feels very supportive and soothing to me to be asked.

 

I'm struggling emotionally with it. I know the old patterns didn't work. I remember a dream I had early in the relationship, one I told him about. In the dream he and I were in a museum, and there were a series of large glass boxes with monsters inside. I was showing him my monsters, and at the final one, the monster was so horrible that the very glass was frosted with fear. Ex leaned down and said, "Oh, that's the most beautiful one of all!" My heart burst with joy and happiness.

What an evocative image.  I believe we all want this, we all want someone to look at our monsters this way.   

I wanted to show him my monsters (my trauma) and have him love him anyhow. It didn't work.

I need to accept and hold those monsters myself, and heal them, and maybe even watch them change. I really don't have any choice. I have to heal myself, or let myself get healed in productive ways.

Yes.  I read some of the articles on the link you posted about AEDP, and it seems to me they'd lean towards the "let yourself get healed" aspect.  That there's something particularly powerful about receiving not only witnessing but also active emotional engagement, a real feeling of connection with another person, while experiencing intense emotions. 

In fact, I would say that our monsters are not really monsters, we only think they are monsters because the way our parents treated us led us to conclude that they were monsters and then we ourselves came to treat them like monsters... .(banish, censor, etc.)  The feelings/behaviours/experiences that we come to believe there is no room for in our relationships.

Of course, we can also practise having a different relationship with our monsters... .begin to approach emotional intensity differently.  If you look in your closet and find there is a monster, what's the first thing most people do, slam the door and run out of the room!   

A simple thing I noticed recently that I think has the potential to be quite helpful is... .when intensity arises... .just hold it right there.  Don't back off, don't push or force through... .just pause there for a moment and see what is really going on.  I have spontaneous insights that way.  It's hard, once I get triggered I often can't pull myself out of self-protective mode, but when I realize this has happened I can go back afterwards and review. 

And for me, the pattern recently is that there are potentially opportunities to connect with others in new ways, but I browbeat myself until I let it pass by.  Safety!  I had an insight just now, it is possible that it's not so much that I fear what will happen, but that I fear not knowing what will happen.  (My mother manages life by trying to always know the worst that could happen, I think she trained me at least partially to do the same)  Wow, this seems like something worth investigating in my personal process.

Likewise, I had the pattern of thinking that if he really loved me he would want to change his behaviors. That would mean I was worth loving. I wanted unconditional love and acceptance but the truth is I sure wasn't giving it. I can't give it to someone who triggers me. So I am realizing now that perhaps I was being fundamentally unfair. I chose the very person to help me heal that would engage in behaviors that would hurt me more.

Some hard-hitting realizations.  When you said you wanted to receive unconditional love but weren't giving it... .me, too.  With my particular variation on it being "I'll give it, but you have to give it first.  I don't want to be the one to take the risk and find out the joke's on me."  Again with that needing to know what's going to happen thing.  Hmm... .

Thank you. I am seeing I went into the relationship with a lot of wants/needs. I wanted it to be a healing relationship, which isn't bad, I think, but it put a lot of pressure on every interaction. When he responded negatively, it was profoundly destructive to me. That's on me.

My version of wanting unconditional love is basically "fill my cup," be a nurturing presence. It's pretty focused on me. I remember trying to explain this to my ex (I am not without insight) and his view came to be that my cup is broken. That's what he would tell me. He'd get angry and say my cup has a hole in it. I was looking for someone to fill my cup, and I kept returning to a person who was holding a dry pitcher with a scowl on his face, and doing the same things that had caused my trauma to start. Pretty ugly stuff, and again, on me for staying in it.

That's an interesting insight you have about monsters. My monsters are me feeling ugly, disgusting, unloveable. They directly relate to being sexually abused. In my therapy it took awhile for my counselor to even get me to have my little child in the room. I was ashamed of her, all pee-soaked, dirty and hungry. It has taken awhile, but eventually I gave her a bath, and dressed her in clean clothes, and am trying to give her some of the mother love she needs.

There is so much shame associated with sexual abuse. In our culture it relates directly to how we perceive our self as desirable in a relationship. It's been tough for me to not want to hide it, to bring it out and deal with it. The dream of the monsters was my effort to ask my ex to embrace this part of me, and accept it.

I told my therapist about the monster dream. Her response? She said if it was her she would get a big axe and break open the glass box, and take out the monster, and hold it, and cuddle it. I started crying when she said that because that is what I want. I want someone to hold my shame.

I picked the wrong person, and the hard part for me is losing faith in myself that I will know the right person. Or finding strength to accept that I might make the same mistake again. To stop being so tender about the monsters. To be able to say, heck yeah I got monsters, so what? They are what made me the person I am today. I'd like to get to that point.

[Circle]

Intersting Eeks. Thanks for posting. What you said about needing someone who doesn't retreat or withdraw, push or pull when We get triggered; to facillitate our own emotional healing - was insightful.

[Cat Familiar]

It's recently occurred to me that in nearly all the relationships I've had, especially the two marriages to BPD men, I've picked men who've shown me their little inner broken vulnerable child when we've connected emotionally. I understand now that due to growing up with a BPD mother, I've always wanted to be in control.

I'm a fixer--whether it's household repairs or trying to "fix" people, and I even went to grad school for a while, thinking I'd become a therapist. When I realized I couldn't separate my own emotions from other people's, I knew that wasn't my path.

I realize I've chosen "broken" men and tried to do a home repair project on them and each time failed miserably.

The "fixing" part  of myself started early. I remember advising my mother "not to worry so much" when I was three and we were at Disneyland. I became the referee in her arguments with my dad and I became the clown to try to lighten her moods.

In all of this, I was focused on other people and the idea of asking myself what I want didn't occur to me. I wanted other people to be happy.

So now I realize that I can't control other people's emotions and it's not my business to do so anyway, I think what is it that I really want? The superficial answer when I ask this question is order, control. And that's simply because I grew up in chaos and lived in chaos with my first BPD husband. The current one creates his own hell, but I've managed to wall off my own private refuge, both physically in my home and now on a more mental/emotional level as I'm learning boundaries and realizing my responsibility for emotions ends with my own.

But now the question remains, "What do I want?"

[Lifewriter16]

Hi eeks,

I'm not entirely sure that I get what you are really saying, but, I feel like being without a relationship, without someone to focus my attention upon, is like throwing myself voluntarily over the precipice... .as is thinking about taking action upon my hopes and dreams. I find myself just sitting and doing nothing because of a kind of internal terror. I do hope to see my ex (and even the one before him) and I think it's this precipice that's at the root of my longing.

How does this fit with my parents/family of origin? Perhaps some notion that I must do what others want me to do and not what I myself want.

Lifewriter x

[Sunfl0wer]

So, some tough-ish questions from me, for anyone who is still struggling with feelings over their ex or partner, whether you are still in contact or not.  And I'll admit that includes me.  If I was in a happy relationship now, I doubt I'd be thinking about my uBPD ex.  Other than once in the summer, it's been over a year since I've talked to him.  I've dated during that time, but nothing where it was a "go" for both partners, like it says above.  For months I rarely thought of him.  But now, going to those dance classes I have to go past his apartment building on the streetcar, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't hope I saw him on the street or at the station!   

In your childhood, did you have to accept or rationalize abuse, neglect, not getting your needs met in order to feel loved and cared for?  Is that the image of "love" or "relationships" in your head?

Yes. 

I believe I had to redefine love.  I had to break it into pieces.  I had to accept 'bad' people and cling on to the tiny 'kindness' they offered and call it love, so I wouldn't starve from lack of love. I had to cling to small pieces of 'love' where ever it was given, and keep it secret from harm.  If someone acted kind to me, and I got happy, mom or someone would squash that kindness and devalue it.  I was not allowed to be lovable.

Is there some "fear program" running in the background (e.g. "This is the best I can do in a relationship", "I'm being too picky if I hope for more", "everybody has their flaws don't they?", "everyone needs love, I can't abandon him/her", "The sex was the best I ever had", etc. etc. etc.)

Yes

If I don't love them, who will?  I know I'm picky, nobody's perfect, he just needs xyz and I have xyz therefore am obligated to help give xyz, etc.

Try this statement on for size... .you can have those wonderful traits you were/are so reluctant to give up your ex because of, in a partner who also provides you with the emotional security and intimacy that you need.  You just believe you can't, because of the template in your head of "what a relationship looks like".

That is not to say that you should callously discount your ex in your mind as "damaged goods".  You can still love him or her.  However, the best way for both of you to love your ex may be from afar.

I haven't forgotten what I wrote about Harville Hendrix' Keeping the Love You Find - https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=288681.0;all - I still think those ideas are valid.  That we will inevitably face some "signature" of our childhood relational traumas in our adult relationships, no matter how much individual therapy we get, we will still attract and be attracted to the positive and negative traits of our caregivers.  In that sense, we arguably do have to "accept their flaws".  However, even that kind of transformative partnership is not viable unless both partners are willing to do the work on themselves when conflicts arise.

Thank you for bringing up the topic of monsters.  This is an area I struggle with greatly.  I feel that my first loves in life were by monsters always.  I found 'love' from monsters, so, well, I know how to love a monster.  I feel like that 'love' has created a pee soaked, dirty, hungry me... .and I try to hide her.  I am ashamed at how poorly she looks and smells at times.  I have never thought of loving her... .when I see her, I feel so much shame and self loathing for her hunger, and filth.  Yet, an adult me vs more monsters, it what she truly needs and craves, she just doesn't know it.

[cherryblossom]

Hi all

This thread and comments are very interesting -I wont go through and put specific quotes on but you all genuinely have had very valuable, insightful things to say

My reflection on this thread:

At the time I met my BPD ex -I was coming out of a 4 year relationship with someone who was more like a brother -we weren't having sex, and I wasn't attracted to him physically -I enjoyed elements of his personality but not enough to spend rest of life with him-I developed broodiness whilst with him and realised I would not like to have a child with him.

BPD ex was soo complimentary about my looks and my personality -found me intensely attractive -and it was great for me as like I say it had been a bit of a desert for me -sex with my ex BPD was absolutely amazing.

I met my ex in a very good place spiritually, socially, career wise and self esteem wise-even with the issues with my ex -as even though we were through- I did not hate him and I could value his qualities -I broke up with him. I had been having therapy which was very useful and things were looking up. I laid my cards on the table to my BPD ex -that I wanted at this point in life a serious relationship and wanted children -I thought we might have a bit of a fling as he was younger than me and we were in the band together- I thought he was really on the level -a really lovely open, mature guy for his age -he had the balls to move to a new city (although sister here) join the band to meet people-but then the madness started ----he did his idealization bit which I didn't recognise as being such, as I genuinely thought I had found something very special something I couldn't even dreamt of. He said he wanted to be a young dad and reeled me in to believe that this was going to be a serious relationship.

I ignored red flags such as -moodiness creeping in like " what does it feel like to have achieved everything you wanted and to have lived your life to the full already?"-making me feel unsteady like he was being restricted in some way by being with me after relentlessly pursuing me with such things like - he has met many women and none like me, implying he wanted a serious relationship with me -but other occasions saying he is not good in relationships (I ignored as thought I was special and that he would be different with me because of our special connection he disclosed to me he had ocd -and that he had never told anyone at all) He made me promise not to say anything to his family (triangulation). He said he needed to be a bit careful with drink (why did this not make me run?-but my grandparents were alcoholics -my dad had a drink problem but is ok now). He got banned from his local pub back from his home town (I just put down to silliness -I've been banned from pubs in past -can sometimes be landlords too big headed). It is interesting the comment about us being attracted to the positive and negative qualities shared by partners with foo

This confuses me as I genuinely at this point did not set out to meet someone like this with these types of issues and he did not present like this at first ---why did I ignore so many signs early on? I fell for him so hard though... .it was unreal.

I think  my pattern is something to do with parts like loving parts of someone (seeing the good and really appreciating that) but not the whole -----i.e loved certain aspects of my ex prior to exBPD --but like I say not physically attracted to him, but if I do that how can I expect to love/accept whole of me? exBPD had lots of beautiful traits-funny, kind-an amazing drummer and was gorgeous looking -but lacking on the good career front and mental health /self esteem front. I didn't see the OCD as having to be a problem but like friends tried to warn it was a big risk as I had no idea if he would dedicate to recovery ---as it happened he was very passive and half hearted about it all -and gradually increased usage of drink and drugs to cope until our final days when he got diagnosed as having BPD as well as ocd. Part of my thinking is that at least you know what your getting if people's problems are visible -nothing to get shocked by -but then having to tolerate a lot more stuff than someone who does not have major mh issues / difficult foo. Thing is a lot of my foo are mad! and I expect someone to accept them and tolerate that and accept me for that -therefore I have lot of empathy/admiration/respect for people in similar situation -even if they are not particularly coping that well with their issues- because I know first hand the pain of having a tough hand of cards to play with... .maybe I need to save that empathy for myself and my clients and be with someone who I can admire because of their many strengths rather than weaknesses -this is hard though isn't it? because there are high functioning BPDs -I don't want to get involved with one of those.

I think having far fetched hope is a sign to look out for in myself -I feel we suffer from intermittent reinforcement as well as the BPDs -I feel like we expect the best behaviour rather than the worst and hold out and push for the best reaction- evidenced by caretaking, minimizing etc... .

There has been talk on this thread about finding it hard to let go of survival patterns as fearing the void -I must admit I feel the opposite I feel I will encounter the void if I do not give up survival patterns -my main defence mechanism that gets me in trouble is extreme sensitivity to factions within groups (foo splitting -in/out -black sheep etc) and hypervigilence and then becoming obsessed with trying to control behaviours of others -although I am much more aware of it now and I am developing more compassion for myself about these defence mechanisms and learning how to not let them spiral. I also identify with being an empath and I am easily drained and affected by certain people in groups who I feel I can see straight through and their malicious intentions

Also the BPDex relationship seems to have mirrored the early relationship with my mother who I believe is uBPD and has ocd tendencies -she was very affectionate and warm with me when I was very little but as soon as I developed a personality she couldn't seem to handle it - she never says she loves me now, although she does try her best to be helpful/kind. I cant even remember when she last said that she is very reserved with giving love in an affectionate warm way-she is like that with my dad and sis---my ex BPD was so loving and affectionate -how he has treated me in the end is very clinical.

I think it is significant that when I got involved with exBPD my mother had stopped talking to me for almost a year because my ex (who she disliked anyway couldn't come for a xmas dinner thing as he had to write an essay and needed the extra time) I COULD STILL COME! but that did not matter! So no wonder I got involved with someone with abandonment issues at that time!

I guess I need to not be so bowled over by instant affectionate displays as it would appear this doesn't necessarily equate to a successful relationship long term-I guess stability -someone with a supportive social network, someone who is consciously aware of strengths and weaknesses doesn't over profess at the start of a relationship -is the way forward -beware of misery loves company scenarios -find someone to talk about positive experiences with! I have to work hard to stay on the light I cant support someone else if they struggle to they need to be actively supporting themselves -evidenced by good self care skills, strategies, stress management    

[purekalm]

Important and pertinent topic for me as well as others eeks. 

My FOO trained me to "get over" heinous situations because nothing was going to be done about it and if I complained it just got me in trouble and hated. My dad was an alcoholic and drug addict, because of that mom was seriously depressed, angry and like a drug addict without cigarettes. There wasn't much affection going around, even as a child. The reason I ended up with an ulcer because I had to "fix" it all, but it never worked or I thought it was for short times so kept trying. I eventually gave up for years on everyone and everything because I couldn't handle the pain.

With my husband, he's done so much to me. But because I was trained, I got angry and either told him or sucked it up. I tried to reconcile my feelings with God and did a lot of healing work with God alone. But I still, just like I had with my parents, did all the work and got little tidbits of "love" scattered here and there. I grew resentful. My parents were one thing, but YOU promised to be there, and abandoned me at every turn.

As I've worked on my issues I've gone through different stages in relation to my FOO. Most recent was that (and I just now realized this) I couldn't save my family and make it work, so I wasn't going to fail at my marriage. I couldn't make my family truly love me, and I can't make him nor do I want to make him love me. If I'm to receive love I want it freely given.

My thing is I feel all I do is fail and this will be another thing I just wasn't strong enough to do on my own. But then my logic kicks in and reminds me that a marriage isn't supposed to be something you do alone and if it fails it SURE WASN'T because I didn't try everything I could to "fix" it.

I like those quotes. I often wonder why I've stayed and tried so hard to keep a relationship where my partner doesn't even care for me, let alone love me. I can't earn his love, and I've already lowered myself enough to ask and even basically beg for it and hate myself in the process. Even though it'd be awesome to be truly loved, I honestly don't believe I'll ever be in another relationship. I'm definitely more afraid of being vulnerable again than I am of being alone. It's a blessing for me that I've got so many things against me I wouldn't be wanted anyways. =)

Either way, thanks for having me think about this.