The Karpman 'Drama' Triangle - how to get off it?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

               Click on diagram to see lead site article

I'm needing some advice after an interaction with mother - maybe I'm reading too much into this but on four separate occasions during an hour's visit, uBPDm was 'rescuer' to my DS(16) and had put me in the persecutor's role as usual.

It started basically as soon as we walked through the door - as usual.  :)S and I had been discussing his hair in the car on the way to my parents.  He is in the process of growing it and I have to say, it's looking good.  So being a 'typical' teenager - DS goes to the mirror to check out his hair on entering their house and the conversation goes like this:

mum - what's up sweetheart?

son - uh, nothing's up

mum - you're still growing your hair?

son - yeah

me - yeah, it's looking good isn't it?  He was just saying in the car that he's not happy with the fringe though - I think it's fine, don't you?

mum - well it's his hair and if he's not happy with it - he's entitled to feel that way aren't you sweetheart?  then she spits -He doesn't have to like it just because you do!

uhhhhh?   ?

Well that was the first of four - a bit trivial but the other 3 conversations were more heated with her being more disagreeable.

Looking at the above, I can see that maybe I should have left it when I said it was looking good.  I shouldn't have told her he wasn't happy with the fringe as this gave her something to bite back at.  But then again, if I'd just left it as 'it's looking good' - she would probably have told me the same thing - 'he doesn't have to like it just because you do'  

This may seem pretty trivial but EVERY conversation with my mother is like this and I need to develop some skills to stop it.  I don't like my son being placed in this 'victim' role.  He isn't very chatty with her because she talks to him as it he's a baby.  When he's told her in the past that he's not a baby and she doesn't need to talk to him this way, she goes all petulant and huffy.

Give me strength... .

Any suggestions?

[Normally normal]

               Click on diagram to see lead site article

I'm needing some advice after an interaction with mother - maybe I'm reading too much into this but on four separate occasions during an hour's visit, uBPDm was 'rescuer' to my DS(16) and had put me in the persecutor's role as usual.

It started basically as soon as we walked through the door - as usual.  :)S and I had been discussing his hair in the car on the way to my parents.  He is in the process of growing it and I have to say, it's looking good.  So being a 'typical' teenager - DS goes to the mirror to check out his hair on entering their house and the conversation goes like this:

mum - what's up sweetheart?

son - uh, nothing's up

mum - you're still growing your hair?

son - yeah

me - yeah, it's looking good isn't it?  He was just saying in the car that he's not happy with the fringe though - I think it's fine, don't you?

mum - well it's his hair and if he's not happy with it - he's entitled to feel that way aren't you sweetheart?  then she spits -He doesn't have to like it just because you do!

uhhhhh?   ?

Well that was the first of four - a bit trivial but the other 3 conversations were more heated with her being more disagreeable.

Looking at the above, I can see that maybe I should have left it when I said it was looking good.  I shouldn't have told her he wasn't happy with the fringe as this gave her something to bite back at.  But then again, if I'd just left it as 'it's looking good' - she would probably have told me the same thing - 'he doesn't have to like it just because you do'  

This may seem pretty trivial but EVERY conversation with my mother is like this and I need to develop some skills to stop it.  I don't like my son being placed in this 'victim' role.  He isn't very chatty with her because she talks to him as it he's a baby.  When he's told her in the past that he's not a baby and she doesn't need to talk to him this way, she goes all petulant and huffy.

Give me strength... .

Any suggestions?

[songbirdtwo]

I wish I had some good advice for you... .I just thought "ugh" when I read your post.  She's putting you in the the child role and talks to you with little respect.  I can relate to that aspect of it for sure.

I'll be interested to see the responses you get on this one.  You're really caught in the middle.  Just curious?  How does your husband react to this? Does she talk to him this way as well?

[Normally normal]

I'll be interested to see the responses you get on this one.  You're really caught in the middle.  Just curious?  How does your husband react to this? Does she talk to him this way as well?

Hi there, SB2

Well hereby hangs a tale.  Until I divorced 10+ years ago, I was the white child and her caretaker.  Although my mother supported me in my decision at the time to leave my husband, she has used this as a way of manipulating us (son and I) since I was painted black.  I don't think she would be playing the 'game' if I was still married - she would never show her 'true' character to her son-in-law's.

My b/f of five years - the loving supportive guy who is so grounded and non judgemental of anyone - is the epitomy of evil as far as she is concerned.  She has never shown her 'true' character to him and doesn't carry on like this in front of him. She just spews dreadful stuff about him behind his back.  I'm often told I should look elsewhere while I still have my looks! ha ha

[songbirdtwo]

Ahhh... .why did she choose not to like your boyfriend?

It's interesting - my mother is "perfect" (so far) when my husband is around.  He is only, at this point, learning about her from me and the letters she sends to me.  I'm sure that's why she got so upset when I she found out that I showed him the last letter.  Does she really think I haven't told him all this?  Really?

I suppose that's a common trait in a BPD mother.  Is your mother diagnosed?  Does she have narcisstic tendencies, too?

[Normally normal]

now, thats a question - why doesn't she like my boyfriend?  I have absolutely no idea.  She has no reason not to like him.  He has never done anything to upset her or me.  My son loves him and he loves my son.  I suppose when I look at what I've written - jealousy maybe?

No, shes not diagnosed but there is absoultely no doubt in my mind - not even a thin slither that she is BPD.  My stepfather is NPD/uBPD and an evil b***ard.  I see some NPD traits in her but these have likely been picked up from him as she hasn't always had them.  As she ages, she gets worse.

Interesting your comment about your husband. I often wondered if my mother ever thought I had 'spilled the beans' on our family's dysfunction to anyone.  I realised that she probably doesn't - she would never dream of confiding in my stepfather.  He knows nothing of the sexual abuse she endured as a child and nothing about her life really.  Everything is top secret! Your mum will likely see you as an extension of herself and your husband as an outsider. It probably has never occured to her that you two talk 

[Cordelia]

I've often wondered this, too - I found the idea of the drama triangle to be extremely enlightening - especially that by being the rescuer you are still part of the triangle!  The easiest way to escape seems to be just not to play, either by not being in contact at all or by simply not reacting emotionally, seeing what is going on analytically and just refusing to play the "persecutor" further.  If she is determined to interact with you in that way though, I'm not sure there's much you can do.  Certainly you can refrain from asking her for support in the way you do in your example (when you ask her to validate that your son has nice hair).  I'm not sure what changing that dynamic would do to your interactions, of course - it's very hard to interact with a family member without expecting any understanding or support.  But something many people have had success with is a technique called Medium Chill around here - basically, not providing personal information, not playing along with any kind of drama, not asking for any kind of emotional support or intellectual understanding, keeping it extremely superficial, with the main goal simply being to maintain some kind of interaction as painlessly as possible.  I currently find it impossible, because I think interacting in this way is doing a disservice to my own emotional needs, but maybe that will change someday.  Right now, I would rather not interact at all than to interact on such a superficial level, where I have to repress everything important to me and my sense of myself as a person with feelings.  But in your situation, you may have different goals and priorities. 

Hope this helps.   

[T2H]

I don't have too much experience with this - and I'm hoping we're talking about the same thing - but my understanding is the only way to leave the triangle is as the persecutor.  Not that you actually persecute but that you just set boundaries, do what's right for you, etc - and stop playing any of the roles in the triangle.  However, by doing that, the other people who are still playing cast you in the persecutor role - and you just need to be strong enough not to take the bait (feel bad / guilt) to come back in.  I've been there a few times... .

[Normally normal]

If she is determined to interact with you in that way though, I'm not sure there's much you can do.  Certainly you can refrain from asking her for support in the way you do in your example (when you ask her to validate that your son has nice hair).  

thanks salome, you have given me something to think about  x

I understand what you're saying - my problem is though just about every conversation which involves my son, my mother and myself goes down this route.  At the time, in the example above, I wasn't consciously asking her to validate whether she thought my son's hair was nice.  I was trying to open up some conversation between us. I can see how she took this as her queue to start the game now looking back.

Funny you should talk about the Medium Chill - I don't tell my mother anything about myself.  We have a one hour visit once a week.  No phone calls just that one hour and her determination to interact with me in this way is obvious right from entering the house  ?

[bpdfamfan]

I'm often told I should look elsewhere while I still have my looks! ha ha

LOL   nice... .

I totally get what you're saying.  In my case, even if it doesn't involve another person, I still feel triangulated (against a concept perhaps? & I  need to find another way to respond)

for example:

we invite her to do something.  she declines, has other plans.  we make new plans.  her response:  "well I guess that works out even better then, don't it?"

we're going away to do work some land for the weekend.  she says "I bet it will be nice to get away & rest" (knowing full well we're going to work) 

So I find myself responding "no it didn't really work out "better" (there was nothing to work out)" or "of course it won't be restful we're working!)

It's maddening.

I hope your son is OK with all of this. 

[Normally normal]

LOL   nice... .

I totally get what you're saying.  In my case, even if it doesn't involve another person, I still feel triangulated (against a concept perhaps? & I  need to find another way to respond)


I hope your son is OK with all of this. 

Exactly! It's like navigating a mine field - one wrong step and BAM.  You can always look at your answers afterwards and say, okay well I could have maybe held my tongue and not said that. But for the most part, she's that damned quick - almost as if she's played the scene over and over in her head and learned the parts off by heart!

My son is doing great.  He's well balanced and not phased by any of it really...   He knows grandma is potty - he actually wants to study psychology 

[sandpiper]

               Click on diagram for more information

I've often found myself at a loss trying to deal with these situations.

Enmeshed sis LOVED to play me as the Bad Guy and paint herself as the Good Guy.

I could never count on her support involving any interactions with the children in our lives, and given that I trained and worked for years in early childhood, its not like I didn't know what I was doing.

Enmeshed sis loved to undermine.

So if I tried to set a limit with the kids, and enmeshed sis was here, I could never count on her for her support.

Background:  I was aunty/second mum to the 3 daughters of DH's best friend, who grew up in a single father household because their mother was alcoholic/and either BP or BPD - they'd stay with us for weeks at a time if he was away on business.

I had a rule with the kids that between 5-6pm, I was not available for help with games etc because I was cooking dinner.  In this time I expected them to have their baths and either watch children's shows or play with board games etc.  Kids like to push boundaries, especially when there's someone new to test, so one day when enmeshed sis was staying, one of them tried the whiney 'Piiiiipeeeeer... .can you help me with the computer?' while I was cooking dinner.

I reminded child (7) about the rule that I was not available to help while I was cooking, that I could help her later, after dinner, and reminded her that it was her turn to have her bath.

Enmeshed sis rolled her eyes and said 'Come here, Child7, I will help you.' and spent the next 20 minutes showing the child how the game went on the computer.  She spoke in loud, patronizing tones, clearly giving me a 'lesson' on child management, as much as instructing the kid.  I just rolled my eyes and kept chopping vegetables and organizing dinner.  I put the other kids in the bath, left child 7 till last and then said 'child 7, its time for your bath.'

Enmeshed sis said 'Oh, for God's sake, she's having fun on the computer, can't that wait until after dinner?'

I said 'No.'  and dispatched Child7 off to the bathtub.  Enmeshed sis gave me a lecture on how rigid I was.

I made a point of seeing that she was NEVER in the house again at the same time as my 'adopted' nieces.

And I made a point of telling them several stories over the years of how Enmeshed sis lives in chaos, does the dishes twice a week, and never cleans anything.

I have more stories where that one came from, but as for how to handle it?

Well, I chose avoidance.  Enmeshed sis has this air of superiority that you can't reason with.  I have a freaking qualification in Early childhood ed, which you'd think would be evidence to most that I have some idea what I'm doing, but I just realized that she's far too self-absorbed and self important to acknowledge any higher authority than her own.  So I just chose to leave her out of the equation and as the girls got older I told them that I didn't enjoy having my sister around because she undermines and tries to play me as the bad guy.  They'd seen it, experienced it, and had heard tales of other incidents so they got it.

I went looking for extended family on uBPDad's side, a few years ago (Dad said he had no family) and I found some indicators that there were a few other BPDs in the blood line.  One of my second cousins told me that her grandmother's 6 children were all raised by the aunts and by their maternal grandmother, after she was abandoned by her husband.  She got her children back when they were old enough to support themselves, but never had a good relationship with them.  My 2nd cousin said 'Granny was mean and she liked to 'play sides'.  My mother and my aunts all knew about it, and they'd never let her draw them into a fight.'

So it sounds to me like my great-aunts generation used a strategy of ':)on't take the bait and don't engage'.

Most of them moved a LONG way away from their mother.  Apart from the one who moved in next door (there's always one sucker, and it was the daughter of this one who said 'we never liked granny'.

I think your son is old enough to have a conversation about how Granny Plays Sides, is emotionally, very childlike, and has some twisted thinking.

I wouldn't mention BPD.  I'd use terms like 'delayed emotional development' and 'low emotional intelligence'.

I'm sure he's noticed that there's something wrong with her and I think he's probably getting to a point where he's old enough to discuss her behaviour and share in the strategies for Not Taking The Bait.

You're the expert on your child and what he's noticed, though.

what do you think?

Can you talk to him?

[Normally normal]

I think your son is old enough to have a conversation about how Granny Plays Sides, is emotionally, very childlike, and has some twisted thinking.

I wouldn't mention BPD.  I'd use terms like 'delayed emotional development' and 'low emotional intelligence'.

I'm sure he's noticed that there's something wrong with her and I think he's probably getting to a point where he's old enough to discuss her behaviour and share in the strategies for Not Taking The Bait.

Hi saNPDiper

Thanks for the advice 

It must be very frustrating trying to deal with your sis.  I can relate totally!

I'm in the postion where I'm LC with both of my parents.  Enmeshed stepfather (NPD/uBPD) has mellowed over the years and just tries to keep the peace for an easy life now.  Mum (BPD) is very hostile with me.  Whilst going no contact would be the logical solution, it isn't an option for me just now.  For various reasons, I have decided one hour per week (no phone calls or anything inbetween) in her company is enough for me to remain in contact and satisfy her desire to see her grandson.  It basically keeps her off my back for want of a better word 

My mother is an intelligent woman - she's certainly not low functioning and even though I match her on the intelligence front, I fall far short in the 'game' playing.  The conversations I have with her seem almost 'rehearsed' and I just fall for it every time.  Perhaps I should just rise above it and not let it bother me, but I just can't.  It irritates the hell out of me - especially when I'm being undermined by her in front of my son.

Anyway, your post was helpful - it's good to see other peoples experiences of dealing with similar situations (not good in a funny ha ha way, you understand!)  As for my son, I have discussed his Grandmother with him.  We have spoken about why she does the things she does and he's wise to how she interacts with me.  Funny, as he seems to deal with the situation a lot better than I do.  As you can see from the brief example I gave above about the hair - he just doesn't get drawn in and keeps his answers to her questions very brief.  Perhaps I need take a leaf out of his book 

thanks again 

[2010]

Hi NN~ One of the most valuable lessons that I learned about BPD Queens and Witches- was that you cannot discuss things with them in question and answer small talk dialogue. They will use open-ended dialogue to rip and tear you apart.

I had to learn that I couldn't casually include open ended statements that asked for opinion by giving an opinion. In other words, I think... .what do you think? BPD's will always tell you what they think in overkill as if to say... ."You asked for it!"

So in your exchange: I see a fractured opening that allows for the kill.

me - yeah, it's looking good isn't it?  He was just saying in the car that he's not happy with the fringe though - I think it's fine, don't you?

There it is: the "I think it's fine, don't you?

An abbreviated version of BPD protective sentence structure is: "yeah, it's looking good isn't it?  He was just saying in the car that he's not happy with the fringe though."

End of statement. The conversation now goes from you to your Mother and her Grandson. She's smart enough to refrain from telling your child that he doesn't look good after you said he does. You are completely out of it and safe.

The only way to win on the Karpmann triangle is *not* to play. Truncating these sentences also establishes a boundary line that's selfish, no nonsense and sends a message that you are not to be toyed with. On garde!

[Normally normal]

Hi NN~ One of the most valuable lessons that I learned about BPD Queens and Witches- was that you cannot discuss things with them in question and answer small talk dialogue. They will use open-ended dialogue to rip and tear you apart.

I had to learn that I couldn't casually include open ended statements that asked for opinion by giving an opinion. In other words, I think... .what do you think? BPD's will always tell you what they think in overkill as if to say... ."You asked for it!"

The only way to win on the Karpmann triangle is *not* to play. Truncating these sentences also establishes a boundary line that's selfish, no nonsense and sends a message that you are not to be toyed with. On garde!

2010 - thank you, thank you, thank you!  x  That is exactly it.  You know I wrote down last night several 'scenarios' that have ended dissapointingly with mother and what you have said is spot on.  I cannot have a conversation with her in the true sense of the word and I need to start using your tips