Does she really think that? and How could I have stopped the devaluing process?

[Scott44]

One would think that, being a Personality and Social Psychologist, I would have a good idea of the flawed thinking that a pwBPD shows.  Maybe I missed a lecture somewhere. 

My ex-wife cut herself (accidently for once) and called a friend to take her to the hospital for stiches.  While this friend was waiting for her, the friend's husband came with an IPAD for her to help pass the time.  My ex-wife told me that she had said, "Scott never would have done anything like that for me!"  Is it possible that she honestly thinks that?  The truth is that I did the following (and more) for my ex-wife:

Gave her a place to stay when dorm parties were interfering with her sleep, thereby ruining my teaching career (she was my student).

Showed up to court in her stead after she had been caught shoplifting.

Never once called the police when she hit, kicked, or bit me even though she left visible teeth marks all purple and black on my skin.

Married her in spite of everyone in my family advising against it.

Tenderly applied alcohol to places she had self-injured.

Acted as a mediator every time she had a dispute with someone.

Wrote several letters of complaint to the superiors of people she considered bad, including the social worker who diagnosed her with BPD!

Attended many trips to the hospital where she was checked out for a variety of ailments.

Waited up to 7 hours per visit to see a PTSD specialist with her (she was too nervous to go without me).

Saved her life when she overdosed on Ativan after a nasty phone conversation with her Munchusen-by-Proxy mother.

Travelled a great distance when her parents' marriage ended to console her suicidal father.

Accepted that she would never hold down a job.  She said that she couldn't be a teacher because exposure to germs from students was too dangerous to her compromised immune system, but then began volunteering with several children's groups in the community!

Stuck with her as she began to idolize a friend who is a singer and actress, all the while beginning to devalue me more and more.

Tried to raise money for her many expenses, including going to her friend's plays multiple times and supporting a family in the DR as they asked us for more and more money.     

     If there is one image that I recall more strongly than any of these, it was when I returned to the hospital where she had been taken after her overdose.  She was running around the ward in her barefeet, frantic because some nurse had tried to scare her by saying that her fiance (me) didn't want to put up with her "~" anymore.  She was begging the doctors to let her phone me saying "I don't believe he would do that!"  When she saw me I could see the look of relief on her face.  She said, ":)id you say you wanted nothing to do with me?"  I told her that of course I hadn't said that and was able to take her home by promising to take care of her.  I did this so she wouldn't have to spend the night in a psychiatric ward (that was a thought that scared her).  I felt like an absolute hero, a knight in shining armor.

     She used to have a recurring bad dream that I had left her and that my family wouldn't tell her where I was.  She was lost without me and awoke in a cold sweat.  Now she has made that bad dream a reality for me.   She has asked for no contact as she "heals" from the relationship we had. 

     Does she have a memory problem (she selectively remembers all the things that make me look bad and forgets the good I did)?

     I ended up "cheating" online and in phone conversations to make up for the lack of validation I was getting from my ex-wife. I now think that I should instead have entered a psychiatric hospital with the complaint that my wife was destroying my entire being.  Maybe then she would have listened and given me some much needed attention.  I'm quite serious about this - I think that by committing myself I may have given her a wakeup call to treat me better.   

     As it was, I ended up in a psychiatric hospital twice since she left me, blaming myself for the failure of the relationship and hating myself for not knowing how to make her happy.  The first time she didn't come to visit me but knew I was in the hospital.  The second time, from December 23, 2012 to February 15, 2013, she doesn't even know about.  As I said, I think I should have gone into the hospital as soon as my depression bottomed out, which happened when she began to really devalue me.  Instead, I landed in the hospital after she left, making it seem like the only thing holding me together was her.  On the contrary, she was tearing me apart for years, and her leaving was just the final blow.

Do you think that she really forgets all the things I did for her?

Do you think if I voluntarily entered the hospital when she first began to devalue me that I could have stopped the devaluing?


 

[TheDude]

I wouldn't pretend to answer your specific question, but I do remember a Psychologist friend once telling me that the toughest clients were other Psychologists! That whole forest for the trees thing, I suppose.

[Scott44]

Yes, I think I must be one of those pychologists who are difficult patients.  I'm stuck with these two questions and looking for answers.

[patientandclear]

Scott, I had a catalog like yours of all the ways I tried to  help my very messed up exH (not the uBPD man I am on this board about BTW).  I was the world champion helper.  No one could possibly help more than me, except possibly ... .  me!  Next time I would do more, and better!

The dynamic was that he was constantly saying I didn't care & didn't sacrifice enough.  It was objectively ridiculous, but I kept turning myself inside out to prove him wrong.  The thing is, there was no amount that was "enough."

We split.  It was abusive and awful.  6 years later, I have completely stopped trying to fix his life, and we are friends.  He respects me and appreciates small things I do to help him.  What it took? Stopping.  Doing NOTHING for him.  It took him years to remember that that was his job -- mine was to love him and want the best for him, which I did, but not to step into his shoes and solve everything for him.  When I cleared out of that role, he had to step in.  He hasn't done it completely, but to the extent he has, it's strengthened him.

Now, in my entanglement with a uBPD man, the one good thing I'll say about how I've managed is that I  have stayed almost completely away from the whole effort to save him.  No thank you.  Can't work, and you pay a tremendous price, and both you and your partner lose respect for you, I think.

[Scott44]

Dear patientandclear, I can't thank you enough for your response to my posting.  I am, if only by default, doing NOTHING for my DBPD ex wife.  I would love to see the day when she would respect me and appreciate small things I would do to help her.  I would love to be friends with her.  Does it need to take 6 years?

[patientandclear]

Possibly   It takes as long as it takes for you to stop, and for her to stop looking to you to perform these always-already-predetermined-to-be-inadequate rescuing services.

6 years is not actually a long time compared to the lifetime of misery I'd signed up for if that had continued. You, too.  Looking back (and I'm still in deep heartache over my uBPDex now, I'm not all serene and happy!), but looking back at this prior mess of a marriage, I cannot believe I wasted that much of my life and myself on that futile endeavor, to full the bucket with the proverbial holes.

Had I stopped earlier, I might have met someone who would be a good partner!  And not my uBPDex who seems to have injured me in ways that will take years to recover from.  But that's another story!  I'm sure there is more to your BPD r/s than just co-dependent over-performing -- there always is (some original idealization to get you good and hooked).  But on the "why is what I do not good enough" -- because it can't be.  That's the whole point.

[Scott44]

Thank you again patientandclear.  I was beginning to think that I am the only one who coninues, as years go by, to hurt from the r/s with my pwBPD, and who continues to long for the person.

[cookiecrumbled]

No, Scott.  You aren't the only one.  I am right there with you.  But I am reading P&C's words very carefully.  I don't want to be in this much pain anymore.  I also worry about what the impact of my continued bereavement will have, is having, on what my friends think of my mental state.

[Scott44]

Thank you onetoughcookie.  My friends and family think there is something wrong with my mental state as I continue to long for a relationship that was very detrimental to my life.  They just want me to "move on" and "forget about her".  I would love to do that, but for some reason I just can't.

[trouble11]

Yeah Scott ... .  friends and family don't get it.  They can't.  They're the lucky ones ... .  they know nothing about BPD and don't want to.  Can't blame em ... .  I sure wish I never had to find out about it. 

[Scott44]

Me too trouble 11... .  

[cookiecrumbled]

Me three.  If I had a dollar for every time someone told me to "move on" I could retire in the Caribbean.

[willy45]

Hey Man,

There is nothing you can do about this. Nothing. She's a really messed up person who abused you. Honestly, my ex wasn't nearly as bad as yours. But I still suffer from the same stuff as you. Thinking I could have done something different. Blaming myself for all the abuse she gave out. Thinking about her all the time. Longing to be with her. And on and on and on. Same thing. So don't beat yourself up too much about how you feel right now. You've been through a huge amount of abuse beyond what I have even gone through. So the fact that you are here and posting and seeking help is a huge, huge positive.

I have come to realize that the label of abuse is very useful. Use it. It doesn't mean that you are some lowly victim. But, it helps to explain what your mind is doing. You have been abused. For a very long time, it seems and in both physical and emotional ways. The abuse I suffered was all emotional. But still, it was abuse. What does abuse do to a person?

1) It undermines a person's self-worth: You probably at one point had boundaries as a person. She crossed them. Probably just a little bit at first. And you probably saw a bunch of red flags. And this probably threw you a bit but you let it go. And then things got worse and worse and worse. With each transgression, your boundaries came down. And they continued to come down. These boundaries are your self. They are who you are as a person. It is how you value yourself and how you determine what is good and what is bad. When these boundaries get continually destroyed, you loose yourself. You begin to doubt yourself, you doubt your own self worth. You are no longer there to make any judgements and you judge yourself by the standards of another person... .  who in this case happens to be very ill. And that is what the abusive person is after. They want control. And the best way to control you is to make everything about them. And you have to buy into that. And they use every tool in the book to do that. Sex, power, threats, rage, emotional blackmail, physical acts (it seems in your case). Anything to undermine who you are. Because in the end, the concept of you as a separate person is a threat. Because if you are a separate person and you decide that the behaviors are crazy and abusive, then you have the option of leaving.

2) You doubt your own perceptions: With every transgression of your boundaries, you loose your ability to trust your perceptions and validate yourself. You don't matter any more. You can't matter. All the nice things you mentioned here don't matter. Again, if you mattered, then you wouldn't have done any of these things. So every transgression, you loose your ability to trust your gut, trust your friends, trust your family. You start to doubt your abilities to see right from wrong. You doubt what is good for you.

3) You elevate the status of the abuser: Along with all this, you elevate the abuser to some kind of super human level. That person becomes this most amazing, incredible person you have ever met that you can't live without. Again, this is a result of the abuse. As I said above, you don't matter. And she beat you down to the point that you started to believe that too. You never really mattered to her. You were an object that was supposed to be there to take care of her. That's it. Sure. She may have done some nice things for you. But these nice things were probably not out of genuine caring and loving. She might have said they are. But probably not. They were probably another way to try to get you stay. A form of negotiation to say 'I did this for you, now you need to do this for me.' Regardless, you as a separate person never existed in your mind. And as the relationship progressed, you HAD to buy into that. She forced it. That is what the abuse is about. It is about controlling you. The result? She is the most important person. You are not. You aren't even there. You probably had to fight for anything for yourself. This is why when she is gone, you maintain this elevated view of her in your mind. That was forced upon you.

4) You blame yourself: Everything was probably always your fault. If it wasn't, it was probably someone else's but your job was to rescue her. And if you didn't, then not rescuing her was your fault. The only way that this works is if you accept this blame. Now that she is gone, you continue to do that. You are beating yourself up with all these thoughts. But that is just part of the game. That is a direct result of the abuse. That is what abuse is all about. It is about taking the blame for someone else's transgressions. And you probably didn't start by doing that. But over the years, it probably got worse and worse and worse. And now here you are, blaming yourself for everything. Wondering 'what if I had done this?', 'how could I have done that?'. That is just another form of blaming yourself.

Your ex wife abused you. She raged at you, she yelled at you, she physically abused you. This is not your fault. It was never your fault. Nothing you could have done or said would have prevented this. You cared too much. And you probably need to work on re-establishing your sense of self-worth and finding the boundaries of yourself. You are still there though. You just need to find that wise voice inside of you and amplify it. Turn it up to 11.

And don't ever, ever, ever, ever engage with her in any way ever again. Trust me. I saw my ex three weeks ago and it literally almost killed me. I started to contemplate killing myself. It nearly destroyed my life. My Mom had to fly in from out of town to stay with me. And why? Because I spent 6 years with an emotionally abusive person who took advantage of me and my general good nature. She undermined my self-worth, she made me doubt my own perceptions, I elevated her to some goddess like stature, and I blamed myself for everything. And I was starting to heal. I hadn't seen her in 7 months. I was starting to see the light of day. My relationship with my new girlfriend was getting better. I had a few hours here and there that I actually enjoyed myself. I was fitter than I had ever been in my life. But I spent three hours with my ex and the floodgates opened again. My current girlfriend found out. She left me. And all the horrible mental things I have been battling (the same things you are battling with) came flooding back but now with vengeance. The only thing in that moment that I was grateful for was that I live in Canada and we have gun control laws so I was safe from myself.

So, dude. You were abused. Own it. I know there is all this stuff about not being treated like a victim and all this self-help BS about personal power and blah blah blah. You can get into all that stuff later on and learn about why you got into the relationship in the first place and on and on. Right now though, own the fact you were abused. That if you were female and she was male, she would probably be in jail for what she did to you. All the stuff that is now going on in your mind is a direct result of being abused.

The good news is that all this stuff that is in you head will go away. I promise you that. It was starting to go away for me. I was doing the exact same things as you. To a T. And it was going away. Really. It was. And why? Because I had NO CONTACT with my ex. None. And then a few hours of seeing her and it almost killed me. Literally.

Ok. That's a long enough treaties. I wish I could work this much on my actual work. I would be a millionaire! One day... .  

Hang in there buddy. There are others who have gone through what you are going through. And they have made it out the other side. You will be one of those guys. And I will be too. It will just take some time. And luckily, that is something we all have.

[GustheDog]

Hi Scott,

":)o you think that she really forgets all the things I did for her?"



Yes - temporarily and sporadically.  Will she remember again at some point?  Yes - temporarily and sporadically.  Her mental state is on a pendulum that swings - along with her perceptions of you (and others) - from one very far extreme to the other.  Many, perhaps even most, of her perceptions are distorted at best and some could fairly be classed as delusional, in all probability.


":)o you think if I voluntarily entered the hospital when she first began to devalue me that I could have stopped the devaluing?"



No chance.  I read your theory as to why you believe this could have helped, but, no, I disagree.  There is nothing you can do to control the inner-workings of her disorder.  Nothing.  When you are split black, anything and everything you do will be seen as nefarious to her.  Plus, she doesn't have the capacity to provide emotional support for anyone else - she is not even remotely able to do this for herself.  Your distress is viewed and experienced as a burden by her.  Quite likely, she would have also turned this around and found some way to use it against you, maybe to illustrate that you're the "messed up" one and not her, or perhaps the classic, "You're trying to manipulate me!"

It's clear that as you're struggling with this, you're still rehashing things as if your counterpart here is *not* mentally ill and borderline delusional.  Trust me, I did the same thing - but it's time to cut that out now.  You will never, ever be able to reason with a BPD, whether in real time or in retrospect.

The only reason I didn't write more here is because johnnyorganic's learned treatise covered everything else I'd have told you.

Follow this link - it will take you to the first page of posts by one of this forum's most informative and prolific members, "2010."  Read 'em all.  You won't have to regret missing that lecture now - here's the entire graduate-level course: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=38193;sa=showPosts;start=760

[Scott44]

johnnyorganic,

Thanks so much.  I hope you're doing okay.  Everyday is a struggle, isn't it?  My experience has been very similar to yours.  Like you, I even thought about the fact that I too, live in Canada and this may have saved my life.  A gun certainly would have put a fast stop to all the painful memories and feelings.  Thanks for taking the time to write so pointedly about your experience.  I feel less alone because of you.  Please take care of yourself.

[Scott44]

Hi Gus,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.  Thanks too for the link you suggested.  The people on this board are really quite amazing.  Having been abused, they still have the capacity to reach out to others.  That is an awesome thing to behold, and believe me, I don't through the word "awesome" around lightly. 

[HarmKrakow]

Thank you onetoughcookie.  My friends and family think there is something wrong with my mental state as I continue to long for a relationship that was very detrimental to my life.  They just want me to "move on" and "forget about her".  I would love to do that, but for some reason I just can't.

Be very carefull with this, as i've lost friends over this . My friends told me the exact same.

[Anvilhead]

Wow,

My sympathies for all of us. I originally signed on because of a very short (several month) but very intense relationship with a woman, whom I am quite sure suffers from BPD. But the more I read, the more I realize, many are describing my eleven year marriage with my,  now ex alcoholic wife. Whew, man was I ever glad/lucky to get out of that mess.

Any way, Gus, i've seen several references to 2010's posts, along with your link, and for whatever reason, can't access them?

Thanks,

anvilhead

Hi Scott,

":)o you think that she really forgets all the things I did for her?"



Yes - temporarily and sporadically.  Will she remember again at some point?  Yes - temporarily and sporadically.  Her mental state is on a pendulum that swings - along with her perceptions of you (and others) - from one very far extreme to the other.  Many, perhaps even most, of her perceptions are distorted at best and some could fairly be classed as delusional, in all probability.


":)o you think if I voluntarily entered the hospital when she first began to devalue me that I could have stopped the devaluing?"



No chance.  I read your theory as to why you believe this could have helped, but, no, I disagree.  There is nothing you can do to control the inner-workings of her disorder.  Nothing.  When you are split black, anything and everything you do will be seen as nefarious to her.  Plus, she doesn't have the capacity to provide emotional support for anyone else - she is not even remotely able to do this for herself.  Your distress is viewed and experienced as a burden by her.  Quite likely, she would have also turned this around and found some way to use it against you, maybe to illustrate that you're the "messed up" one and not her, or perhaps the classic, "You're trying to manipulate me!"

It's clear that as you're struggling with this, you're still rehashing things as if your counterpart here is *not* mentally ill and borderline delusional.  Trust me, I did the same thing - but it's time to cut that out now.  You will never, ever be able to reason with a BPD, whether in real time or in retrospect.

The only reason I didn't write more here is because johnnyorganic's learned treatise covered everything else I'd have told you.

Follow this link - it will take you to the first page of posts by one of this forum's most informative and prolific members, "2010."  Read 'em all.  You won't have to regret missing that lecture now - here's the entire graduate-level course: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=38193;sa=showPosts;start=760

[GustheDog]

Wow,

My sympathies for all of us. I originally signed on because of a very short (several month) but very intense relationship with a woman, whom I am quite sure suffers from BPD. But the more I read, the more I realize, many are describing my eleven year marriage with my,  now ex alcoholic wife. Whew, man was I ever glad/lucky to get out of that mess.

Any way, Gus, i've seen several references to 2010's posts, along with your link, and for whatever reason, can't access them?

Thanks,

anvilhead

Hey anvilhead - I think you've got to hit a certain number of posts before you'll have access to that.  If I recall, though, it's not a high number.

[willy45]

yup. YOu only need to have 10 posts.

[Anvilhead]

yup. YOu only need to have 10 posts.

Hey thanks Gus, almost there. Really nice post above johnnyorganic.

And Scott, mine (ex wife) hit, slapped, pulled knives on me, threw phones (the old kind), one night even gave me a black eye, I called the police, and I almost went to jail because she was better at lying, than I was at telling the truth! That was 7 years ago and I always attribuited it to the alcoholism, but it seems many self medicate with drugs and alcohol. Who knew? Damn, hang in there man.

Luckily, I saw crazy coming down the hiway with the brights on, with regard to the 3 month affair. Seems I dodged a bullitt on that one. I guess I can thank my ex for that. 

Thanks,

Anvilhead

[Anvilhead]

Almost forgot, the ending of the intense 3 month affair, has stayed with me, and plagued me far worse than the 13 year relationship/11year marriage to my ex wife. Not a day goes by that I don't think of that last woman, here after 7 months. Weird to me the impact BPD's have on us.

Take care,

Anvilhead