how do you cut your child out in a kind way

[whiletheseasonspass]

Well I pulled this thread back up because I am really stepped back... .and I found this quote on this thread from etc. who fortunately at the writing of her post had reconciled with her son after 3 years of separation although in her post she said it was not perfect but better. 

Quote:  {"Being estranged from your own child is heart wrenching. Putting up with abuse is soul destroying".}

So true... . 

I feel so badly because in my mind I have made a deliberate move - a thought out move for me- my welfare and I feel that it is at my D's expense.  I did not know in the first post of this thread if I had the right to do this.  I still don't know what is right  but I kind of know what I need to do.  I worry about my D.  But I would worry even if she is in my life or not in my life.  I don't know which is more painful to have her in or to not have her in my life.  Both are difficult. 

I feel like I should be stronger... .like have a flaw to keep on writing all the time about my grief.  I feel guilt big time.  Yet I need some space to think!  Some time at a later date-  I will let you know as time goes on... .how this feels to cut my child out of my life.  Right now it is not a picnic. 

Anyway I am going to take some time from the board while I take some time for myself- as I go through this strange  ? ? period... .unless something drastic happens.  I hope not. 

So I want to say    to all of you dear people and to you FMJ I read your posts and I know you are in lots of despair - know that you are in my heart and in my prayers... .I know exactly how you feel.  I will keep all of you in my prayers while I am on "sabbatical". 

whiletheseasonspass

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[whiletheseasonspass]

p.s.  just had to add I will never give up hope for something better even  though now I need the time for me. 

[FMJ]

oh... whiletheseasonspass... .my heart is aching for you.  We too basically have cut our daughter loose after she came to our house in a rage yesterday ... .and we called 911 as she was trashing our house telling us how she hates us and wants us to die and go to hell.  My husband had told her exhusband that the children were staying out of state w/boyfriend and his mother.  So... now we are the bad guys.  Our daughter says she will not live in the home we have provided for the children... It is killing us... but as the deputy who came yesterday said, he sees this very often and the children are the issue and concern... not the adults.  So... while it is killing me, I know we have done right by the children hopefully... .we have decided to let her make her own way... have finally denied her what she "wants" and all we can do is hope for the best... .God help us all!

[ncsunflower]

to WTSP - I will keep you in my prayers. 

to WTSP and FMJ: 

I can tell you that as much as I hated to see my S move, it has been very good for me.  We are having little contact - most days I get online to make sure he is still alive - the less contact we have, and I hate to say this, the more hopeful I feel that somehow, someway, he is making it okay.  It is a relief to not deal with his problems every few hours, days. FMJ, what you had to do was necessary and so painful, but you, like me, are starting to reclaim your self and your life, and we, even we are parents, have to take care of ourselves.  As my therapist says, "if you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of anyone else".  Easier said than done, I know, but reclaiming your life feels better... .at least today for me it feels better.   x  to you both.

[FMJ]

Thanks for the inspiring words ncsunflower.  My husband and I were talking earlier... .I still feel some guilt in all of this... .trying not to... but we truly have done nothing wrong.  I don't know that we have cut our daughter out in a kind way... .but we have cut her loose... .it has been 3 days since we have spoken to her.  You are right in your statement... .it has been nice not to argue or plead or whatever even though I am very sad we don't talk.  Everything truly is out of our hands now.  Her ex is talking to his lawyer... .she is in contempt of court order/custody.  Her ex just wants her to do right by the children... .he does not want to take them away or punish her.  He, too, may have to take drastic measures as well... .which is going to be very hard on her.  But then... .she knows the "rules" and that she is breaking them and risking her custody to the children.  We as parents often make our children's problems ours... something that I very much do.  I am trying to work on that.  If she moves away, she just moves away.  I told myself today... .if I survived my mother's passing away... .I can survive my daughter moving away... .

[Cheli]

New here, posted on the newbie board a few days ago.  Can't even express how saddening it is to find so many dealing with a D like mine but at the same time what a relief and what a revelation that I am not alone in this torture.  I am at that place where I want to cut off from my daughter, I can't stand her or her games anymore and I am oh so tired of it all.  She ran off with a boyfriend to FL in March and I absolutely loved the PEACE I had during her time away, I prayed so hard that she would make a life for herself down there and I could enjoy this peace forever, but true to form, in May she and the boyfriend had a brawl, she called me crying and had no place to go and she was pregnant again... .and begged me to go down and get here, two hours later I was on a plane to FL and two days later I was driving a uhaul back to my home (all at my own expense of course-went into debt to do it).  It had been nearly 5 years since she had lived in our home so I hoped that somehow this time would not be so bad.  I was wrong, it's worse. When she didnt live with us and would become nasty and volatile I could hang up the phone at the first sign she was looking for someone to fight with and then just not answer her calls for a few days until her mood changed, but living here... .no such luxury!  Note: the only reason we let her live with us is because of our 4.5 yr old grandson who is innocent in it all and we didn't want him bounced all over the place-we love that little guy soo much it breaks our hearts to think how unstable his little world is.  However, my grandson has been used as a weapon to manipulate and punish me since the day he was born. I have been cut off from my daughter and grandson many times because I refused to give in on something my daughter demanded. (ie a car, pay a bill, co-sign a loan, every time I said no-I knew i would pay dearly for it and my grandson would suffer too) Here she is pregnant again and I have NO interest in getting attached to the next baby and the guilt I feel for that is terrible but to get attached just means handing another knife to my daughter to use against me.  I am so torn on that issue, if I am close to one and not the other-that will surely hurt them both-especially the one I am not close to.  Its just looking like I have two choices, either cut my daughter loose (with her children) or allow her to use both kids to manipulate and hurt me which in the end isn't good for her kids to witness & experience either.  The longer she has lived here... .the closer I am becoming to being comfortable with cutting her loose entirely. It will surely break my heart to not see my grandson, but I have been cut off from him before and based on how that felt-it isn't as bad as having my daughter in my life anymore. She has turned our home into a war zone, I have no peace anymore, I endure daily attacks on my life, what kind of mom I am, where I live, how I live, and of course nothing I do for her is ever good enough, I can't focus on our business or anything else, my health has deteriorated (lupus), and I am becoming a bitter and sad person that I don't like very much.  I am so ready to cut her loose and get back to living again.

[ncsunflower]

Cheli, welcome!  Yes, it is sad that so many of us deal with heartbreaking issues/events with our children.  I used to think that I was alone, mostly, until I found this place.  I am now much more sane and have been able to detach with love and my life is getting better.  You are in a tough spot.  I don't have grandchildren yet, but I have a sister who does and I know how important those little ones are.  You certainly don't want to hand your d another knife - she has too many weapons already.  If you are not in therapy, please consider a therapist.  Others on this board are much smarter and farther along than I am and I am sure you will be getting loving replies.  Hang in there.   x

[lbjnltx]

dear cheli,

you must take care of yourself.  the best way to do that is to put in place some healthy boundaries.  if you look on the boards at the bottom of the page you will find workshops and articles that are very helpful and informative.  carefully consider each move that you make, being sure that the consequences are what you intend for yourself.

i shall keep you in my prayers, and your precious grandson also

peace be with you

lbjnltx

[FMJ]

Cheli... .sort of walking in your shoes right now.  Our daughter came home yesterday... .literally bruised... having been beaten by the boyfriend.  She has nowhere to go now and she and her 2 children will be here.  I am relieved on one hand and anxious on the other.  We have to provide some stability for her children if possible... but I still don'tquite trust her...

[Cheli]

Thanks to ya all for the welcome.  I have been considering a seeing a counselor/therapist, in the meantime have been venting to my daughter in law who has a psych degree (works with teen girls in a group home).  My husband and I have our own business so my schedule gets pretty crazy as this is our busy season (he is a contractor), we work 10-14 hours a day during the summers.  Which has its advantages-keeps me busy usually but with the constant drama going on around me (our office is in our home) I have reached a place where I can't focus on anything. 

Fourth of July my d pushed the envelope and I think thats where I reached the point of no return, she sunk to a new low in using her son to hurt me.  She wants a car, well I have bought 3 cars in the past several years only to be left having to make the payments & insurance because she didn't keep her word and she trashed the cars, one of which only had 25000 miles on it when she got it and after a year-it was junk. She pushed me about using my car on the Fourth of july, I said no, she went ballistic, I ignored her (i stopped fighting back 2 yrs ago rather than get dragged into the mud with her) so the next day she had her son staying away from me (in my own house) and had him saying "i dont like you grandma" and when I said "thats ok sweetie, i love you" and my daughter said "no she doesn't love you, if she did she would help your mommy". Then she went on to say "when we move out of here you will never see my kids again, ever, i will tell them you were evil and that you are dead and I will erase you from CJ's memory!"  With that I picked up my keys and left for the day. When I came back I said "how much for the apartment that doesn't require you have a credit check?" she said "first, last and deposit come to $950" I said "make the arrangements in the morning" she said "i don't have the $950 duh" and I said "thats ok, its not a loan, its a gift-TO MYSELF, I will pay it and the dep. on the electricity and how you survive after that is your problem, sink or swim, not my problem and don't call me to rescue you again".  The next day she insisted she couldn't move because she didnt have a car, I said I don't care-I need you out of my house, she said "but the temp agency called this morning and I have a job".  So I let it go, she's working which means she is out of my house 8-5 every day (i drive her of course) so her being gone that much has helped but this time I can't pretend she didnt say and do the things she did like I have for the last decade, this time I have simply had it, I can't stand the site of her anymore. Her upswings don't make up for her downswings and outright rages and verbal assaults and she has never owned anything she has said or done-its always my fault cuz somehow I made her do it and when her world falls apart thats also my fault even if she is living 1500 miles away.  The last time she moved away, I didn't call her, I just didn't care anymore.  CJ's dad lives here in town so when he got CJ for weeks at a time, I got to see CJ and that's all that mattered to me anymore.  I knew it would be short lived, that sooner or later I was going to get that call of her screaming and crying and demanding that I rescue her... .sure enough, it took all of 8 weeks until the call came at 4am one night.

I want her out of my house and I don't care if that makes me "not a much of a mom-just a waste of oxygen" (her words everytime I dont bend to her demands), I am over it all.  It's just a matter of time right now, I am preparing myself emotionally for getting her out of here and the consequences that go with it, the temp job is just 4 weeks-when its done she will be here 24/7 again, if nothing else, the job gives her a chance to put together some money for an old car that can get her around so I will hold out until then unless she goes on the rampage again or steals anymore of my things. (i have moved that which means anything to me over to my dads house at this point) Of course odds are she will blow the money she makes from the job, but that's not my problem, neither is whether or not she has a car or transportation for a job. I can't live like this anymore, ive done it this long for my grandson, but its not even fair to him to be used against me the way he has been so if I am not in the game anymore he wont experience having his relationship with me jerked back and forth anymore.

[Cheli]

FMJ, my heart goes out to you, especially if you are about to experience anything near what I have the past 2.5 months. I was optimistic in the beginning, I had high hopes that somehow, with nearly 5 yrs having passed since she lived in my house, that surely she had matured at least a little and things wouldn't be like they were years ago.  The first week, she dished out insults about my way of life, where I live, my pets etc etc, and she even re-arranged ALL of my kitchen cupboards cuz how I had them were just "wrong"... .I tolerated it all, smiled and nodded and just let it go without engaging any arguments with her as I know that fighting with her accomplishes NOTHING except upsetting me further.  As of this month, I have taken as much as I can take and she has to go VERY soon. She is on an upswing right now, cuz there's a new guy shes trying to reel in of course (usual pattern)-she always has upswings when shes got a new guy hooked that is romancing her with attention and showing signs of wanting to rescue her.  They usually don't last very long before they head for the hills though and when they do... .I pay for it. In 2.5 months she has already gone through 4 of them and is working on the 5th as of 2 days ago.

I am sorry your d came home beaten like that, that's one issue we don't see with my daughter, she is more likely to hit a guy than they are to hit her.  The one in FL pushed her away after she hit him, he wound up in jail over it because she is pregnant (due in december) even tho he was the one who had a black eye.  She hit her ex husband several times, the one time he pushed her back-she called the police, fortunately the police realized that he was not the problem. One of these days tho she is likely going to hit the wrong guy.

I pray that your experience of having your daughter moved into your home turns out better than mine has, feel free to email me to vent anytime

Cheli... .sort of walking in your shoes right now.  Our daughter came home yesterday... .literally bruised... having been beaten by the boyfriend.  She has nowhere to go now and she and her 2 children will be here.  I am relieved on one hand and anxious on the other.  We have to provide some stability for her children if possible... but I still don'tquite trust her...

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[FMJ]

Thank you Cheli... .I am the verge of retirement... but looks like our lives have taken a detour.  I pray things will go okay... .but I am sensible enough to know that it will be difficult.  I am trying really hard not to get my hopes up.  It helps so much to know that others are so understanding of what we are going through.  I am here for you also... .

[KathleenS]

I can definitely relate to what you are going thru right now.  My only child, my 18yr old daughter, has BPD.  Please know that it is not your fault for any of what is going on with you child.  You need to take care of yourself first!  You need to get help before you can help your child.  You will get thru this difficult ordeal.  I have begun to help myself by educating myself... .going to the library and going on-line to read about BPD.  It has helped alot.  This website helps me alot.  There are therapists out there that you can set up an appointment and talk about all of this.  That's what I am planning on doing.  I told my daughter she needs to be independent and handle responsibility herself.  She has moved out to share an apartment with friends.  She goes to a therapist every week.  She is moving ahead with her life.  You also need to move ahead with your life and find comfort.  I find praying helps me very much.   Please start my educating yourself about BPD and go to a therapist who has experience with BPD patients.  You will get better and so will your child.   God Bless You!

[FMJ]

Prayer is most definitely at the top of my list!  My daughter seemed to have a better day yesterday.  Today, however, she was to call her therapist to touch base and did not do that without her sister telling her she needed to.  That is of some concern to me.  She is still sad over the end of the relationship w/the guy who literally beat her, choked her, kicked her, and drug her by her hair.  I just cannot relate to that at all.  As she is now living with us, some very clearcut boundaries are in order... .

[whiletheseasonspass]

Hello Friends,

I want to update this and give some positive news... .  (if I can- this is old - 2009) because I want to offer some hope.   ( I found this old thread by clicking the "button" amid the posts that says most viewed posts or something of that nature).

Although my dd's behavior with the way she treats her very debilitating illness has pretty much stayed the saame- I want to say that since I first started this thread-- dd has become very loving.  It has gone on now for about a year.  I cannot guarantee that it will stay this way- because of certain factors- that might bring about emotional blackmail and painting us black- but where she would turn to her dh- and push me away- NOW she and I express love to one another easily.  :)D-  she embraces my words of love- and dd believes I love her.  And she says it back- easily.   I never thought when I started this thread back in 2009 - I would ever be writing this post today.  That said- again it might be conditional- for there is something coming up- and she could use the the "if you love me" card.  I hope not- but it could

One reason- maybe the main reason -for dd being more loving and able to receive love from me- is because dh stopped enabling dd.  :)h and I went though marriage counseling AND dh on his own.  He learned ( learned to accept ) that he was enabling our dd and his endorsement (friendship vs. fathering) was harmful to dd and to our marriage AND to my relationship with dd.  So with us as a team - dh and I as a team- I could no longer be seen as the bad guy.  

Secondly- dd really did need to be in our lives and dh and I could no longer abide by the professional advice to use tough love- wc amounted to NC- which partly also happened as I wrote in this thread because of dd's behavior being too painful to bear- but because it was not good for our dd- or for us- so we reconnected several months after starting this thread while working on our marriage and dd on himself and me working on myself- and the dh and me learning tools to communicate better.  

The tools could NOT have worked btwn dd and me- if dh had NOT gotten on board beside me.  That I can say for sure.

So during the last year and a few months- dd and I have become closer- AND she has on 3 occasions expressed remorse for certain behaviors - that she wished she could change- on HER part - where I was concerned.  

During this time where dh and I have become a team- whereby prior to this- dd was getting something out of pitting dh and I against one another- but now that we are a team- (dh and I ) dd seems to feel safer and happier over the synergy from TWO PARENTS- synergy = increased feeling loved and supported- by dd-  that comes from the dh and I being a team and not only all of that- we have seen some positive things happening... .  maybe small things but they are there.  

Anyway- wanted to update- where it is presently happening - - and to give hope to others who feel like that reciprocal expressions of love could never happen.  

 

wtsp

[Reality]

whiletheseasonspass,

So funny, as I was wondering today how you were doing and here you are, with such good news. 

For your dh to attend T is a huge step and the changes that have resulted are significant.  I am very happy for you and your family. 

Thank you for letting us know.

Reality

[Someday . . .]

You have no idea how good it is to hear a 'success story'.  I know that sometimes I feel that it will never get better; and yet I really, really, have a lot of hope that someday it will. . .

Thanks for the post. . .this was something that I needed to hear.

The best of luck to your family!   

[qcarolr]

wtsp -   

This is so awesome. Thanks so very much for updating with this journey your family has taken on. I too am seeing that getting in a safe place - emotional and physical - for myself, my dh and my DD26 is a key to being able to make a connection. The other part for me is so much research on how this works from an interpersonal neuroscience point of view. It brings it all togehter in a new way - kind of a 'how' these tools and skills work.

And getting on a team with staying connected with dh. This has happened for me in many ways as well. I did try the tough love detachment and was in such great misery. I am so grateful for the shift even here at bpdfamily.com away from these tough stances where parents are concerned. Parents have a different relationship needs - there is such a deep need on both sides for connection. And the love is needed more when it is the hardest to give to each other.

Hope - it is always there - though sometimes hidden deep.

qcr  

[jellibeans]

wtsp

Thank you for your update... .  I enjoyed reading your post and found it to be very helpful to my situation. My dd like to pit my h and myself against each other to try and get her way often. It is good that you have that loving connection again. What a diffience time makes... .  

[Mirella]

I am so lonely in my pain and struggle with my son. I am so grateful for your post. Thank you for reaching out. I too have concluded that I need to take care of myself, self preserve. This may mean disengaging, walking away, hanging up, driving away, setting a limit... .  limits. Because you have reached a breaking point that requires you to say enough is enough! So setting limits is NOT Cutting your child out of your life.  Unconditional love is the most precious, pure and authentic thing we can offer our troubled children.This does NOT mean self sacrifice or self deprivation. You can not reason with your daughter. You can not reach her, only for brief moments in time, fleeting moments. Let go of the expectation that she will let you in. She will only sometimes let you in (MAYBE) , briefly. It hurts you, it does break your heart. Mine has been broken and the never ending healing process is what I accept. We will never have a "normal" relationship with our children by other's standards (or those standards we subscribed to) All you can do is continue to love your daughter and continue to express this love in meaningful ways, creative ways but you must let go of reciprocity. Please, please, please pursue a way for YOU to self preserve whilst you continue to love your daughter.  You are not CUTTING HER OUT but setting limits, necessary limits to care for yourself. Draw on the strength of this anonymous group of people that identify with what it is to love a mentally ill, HURTFUL child! I FEEL FOR YOU, this helps my loneliness.

[whiletheseasonspass]

Hello Friends,

I want to update this and give some positive news... .  (if I can- this is old - 2009) because I want to offer some hope.   ( I found this old thread by clicking the "button" amid the posts that says most viewed posts or something of that nature).

Although my dd's behavior with the way she treats her very debilitating illness has pretty much stayed the saame- I want to say that since I first started this thread-- dd has become very loving.  It has gone on now for about a year.  I cannot guarantee that it will stay this way- because of certain factors- that might bring about emotional blackmail and painting us black- but where she would turn to her dh- and push me away- NOW she and I express love to one another easily.  :)D-  she embraces my words of love- and dd believes I love her.  And she says it back- easily.   I never thought when I started this thread back in 2009 - I would ever be writing this post today.  That said- again it might be conditional- for there is something coming up- and she could use the the "if you love me" card.  I hope not- but it could

One reason- maybe the main reason -for dd being more loving and able to receive love from me- is because dh stopped enabling dd.  :)h and I went though marriage counseling AND dh on his own.  He learned ( learned to accept ) that he was enabling our dd and his endorsement (friendship vs. fathering) was harmful to dd and to our marriage AND to my relationship with dd.  So with us as a team - dh and I as a team- I could no longer be seen as the bad guy.  

Secondly- dd really did need to be in our lives and dh and I could no longer abide by the professional advice to use tough love- wc amounted to NC- which partly also happened as I wrote in this thread because of dd's behavior being too painful to bear- but because it was not good for our dd- or for us- so we reconnected several months after starting this thread while working on our marriage and dd on himself and me working on myself- and the dh and me learning tools to communicate better.  

The tools could NOT have worked btwn dd and me- if dh had NOT gotten on board beside me.  That I can say for sure.

So during the last year and a few months- dd and I have become closer- AND she has on 3 occasions expressed remorse for certain behaviors - that she wished she could change- on HER part - where I was concerned.  

During this time where dh and I have become a team- whereby prior to this- dd was getting something out of pitting dh and I against one another- but now that we are a team- (dh and I ) dd seems to feel safer and happier over the synergy from TWO PARENTS- synergy = increased feeling loved and supported- by dd-  that comes from the dh and I being a team and not only all of that- we have seen some positive things happening... .  maybe small things but they are there.  

Anyway- wanted to update- where it is presently happening - - and to give hope to others who feel like that reciprocal expressions of love could never happen.  

 

wtsp

Dear Mirabella,

I'm so sorry that you are struggling so with your pain - but glad that you are reaching out.      If I am missing something please correct me.  I certainly was reaching out when I started this thread back in May of 2009.  Now 4 years later I pulled this thread back up to report that it is 4 years later  (20130 and things are better in ways and I wanted to write the above post the other day- (quoted in the box above in little letters) to give hope that things can change for the better and that I am now in the position of having my dd in my life and that we are expressing love to one another and I mentioned how things have changed for the better- the comment following this new post ( in 2013 ) reflect the hope that I wanted to pass along and I hope that by you re-reading it- perhapsit might give you some hope as well   .  It is great that you have started writing on this board and I hope you continue to to do so.  You will receive a lot of understanding and compassion here.  

Best to you  

wtsp

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders