NPD after all?

[KellyO]

I red some old posts from https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=38193, and he said this:

So when you are in recovery from the aftermath of a cluster B relationship, you must be honest with yourself- what exactly did you do? Did you serve this person? Or did you allow this person to serve you? If it's the former, then you are dealing with a Narcissist. And yes, they enjoy inflicting pain.

This was  for me. I served him. The longer we were together, the more he harmed me, the more Narcisstic he became. I must say that lots of his behaviour got better just because if it did not, I ended the r/s. But it got better only in the shallow way, like yes, he did not say to me "f-ck you, I dump you", but "I don't need to listen to you, so I leave right now".

Reason I came here was because I wanted answers. His ADHD was part of the answer. One Finnish book about ADHD said that some people with ADHD have symptoms of BPD. When they get medication for ADHD, symptoms disappear. If medication ends, symptoms come back. So it might be a brain thing. So I notice people here descriping lots of what was going on in my life.

But I have seen so much pure cruelty, emotional abuse and mean, hurtful actions I can't put it under BPD. It can't be just fear of abandonement. He was super controlling when it came to my emotions and thoughts, they were not allowed. It was like he wanted me to be him. When I was not, he attacked, and he made damn sure he hurt me. And I have seen him getting joy of it. There is no deny for that. If I try to understand it is just him beeing hurt, it is not the thruth. I know it in myself. He hurt me, and it was sometimes sadistic. I could see how much he liked it. And or course, he did not remember it next day.

On the other hand, he did LOTS of projecting, and that is BPD-thing. I could be sure if I got blamed of something, he was talking about himself.

I don't really care what he is, letters under his name are not important. What is important is that I don't trick myself in believing he was this poor hurt soul who deserves my endless compassion. I don't hate him at all, but I want to keep him out of my life for good. It is for me, and my own sanity.

Any thoughts?

[Rose Tiger]

The ex I am dealing with is BPD comorbid with NPD.  There can be lots of combinations.  NPD is a lot harder to treat than BPD, that is getting into the realm of no hope.  It is exceedingly emotionally abusive.  There is a great book, the Wizard of Oz and other narcissists that really lays it out.  The tools on the staying board do not work on narcissists, you don't validate them, you hold really firm boundaries to protect your sanity.

What is concerning is how close NPD is to sociopath.  Glad you are out! 

[freshlySane]

only a therapist can tell him yes or no to what he is ... .  its good you are looking out for you wither its NPD BPD PTSD or anything like that if they abuse you Emotionally or physically. Their actions are WRONG Self healing is the only way i struggle with this everyday. but heres the thing you got that i do not You care about yourself and your happiness thats the key YOU. Once you find you the world opens up. He has to find him

[KellyO]

There was this strange duality, he could say nice things about me... .  and same time he critized me all the time. I felt like his words were this little hot pebbles that poured over me constantly, eating my confidense when one pebble hit... .  and he was so demanding. There was never enough attention, adoration or flattery. I don't think he needed validation like I read here all the time. He needed me to be there when he needed, and shut up when he did not need me. I felt constantly how disappointed he was with me. Feelings of humiliation were constantly present in me. Maybe that is what makes me to work myself out of that hellhole I thought was a relationship. And work with myself so I never will go something like that. I want to be such a person they dispise and never look twice at. Maybe then I can find a healthy relationship with an other adult.

[benny2]

Mine also shows symptoms of both, BPD and NPD. He has all the traits of BPD and then some. He has this mean, evil side to him. He would brake me down emotionally and sit and laugh when I would cry. It was like he enjoyed seeing me in pain. It gave him some kind of relief. But then there was this sweet childlike side to him. I still don't understand it all. Now I'm just trying to figure out what I have been going through for the last 17 years, with the last 2 years living under the same roof. Funny, but I did not see all these things until I moved in with him. Yes, now that I know there were red flags, but in my mind at the time I was thinking, wow, this man must really love me because he keeps coming back to me. Wish I knew then, what I know now.

[GustheDog]

The effects that BPDs and NPDs have on others can look and feel the same, but the motivations are quite different.

For example, both idealize, devalue, and discard.  But NPDs do so out of opportunism and predation, whereas BPDs are driven by their impulsive need to attach, and later to escape their attachments.

NPDs have a grandiose sense of self, and require supply to fuel their own self-image; they need admirers.  BPDs have a severely *deficient* sense of self, and they need people with strong identities to mirror in order to "see themselves."

Their internal drives are motivated by entirely different compulsions, but both disorders objectify others, and the effects of this objectification can feel about the same regardless of whether you're dealing with a BPD or an NPD.  (And I can personally attest - my father is NPD and my exgf is BPD.)

2010 is rarely unclear, but I can see why this statement makes you automatically conclude you were dealing with NPD rather than BPD.  Try thinking about it this way: NPDs are masters and BPDs are slaves.  NPDs have grandiose selves, BPDs have no selves.  BPDs are needy, NPDs are fiercely independent (there is narcissism in BPD, and it is possible to be both NPD/BPD, but the narcissism of BPD *absent* NPD is a self-centeredness that derives from an *inability* to consider others, and *not* from a grandiose false self).

I will say that I ultimately felt like I was my exBPDgf's "servant," but she was not NPD.  BPDs want to serve *you*, and in exchange for this servitude, they expect (1) to borrow your "self," and (2) for you to take care of them.  They want *you* to be *their* master.  But you end up feeling like a servant yourself because you're constantly striving to be a "good enough" master - and no master will ever be good enough.  So you end up getting fired by your slave.

[KellyO]

  They want *you* to be *their* master.

This rings bells... .  he said in the beginning that he is like a dog, he can't be a leader of the pack. He needs to be leaded. I can confirm that.  I have fierce believe in equality = I don't want to lead, I want to have a companion who is at same level than me. So, yes, now I see it. He is very self-centered, so maybe that is why I thought he would rather be NPD. He seeks for admiration... .  but when I think of the things he told me about himself and how he is, it really is him trying to please others so they would like him (= giving him positive mirror?). I have been with  NPD in my past when I was very young (my FOO made sure I will always find a self-centered person), and he never did anything to me, and everything in him was just for looks, including me. This man I was with now did some very nice things to me, without me even asking for them. It was not often, but he did. That is the duality I'm struggling with. If I cried, he did not laugh at me, he just got angrier and blamed me for making him feel he is a bad person ('cos I was crying he could see he was treating me badly, and it did not fit in to his image of himself?)

Two weeks ago I had a dream about my ex. There were two of him, other hugging me and I told him I love him, and suddenly I was with other him, one that yelled me so much his face was red, and I was scared. This is how I see him, and that was my minds way to tell me that.

2010 often gets me confused, my English fails me all the time   

[GustheDog]

If I cried, he did not laugh at me, he just got angrier and blamed me for making him feel he is a bad person ('cos I was crying he could see he was treating me badly, and it did not fit in to his image of himself?)

Yeah, that's basically right.  A pwNPD could easily laugh at someone who's crying (if they wanted to), but a BPD will not like this at all.

I remember early in my relationship my exBPDgf told me that men weren't allowed to cry.  "Only when someone dies," was the sole exception to her rule.  I laughed at this.  For one, I thought she was exaggerating for humor's sake.  And I also wasn't fazed because I'm not very emotional - at the time she told me this, I probably hadn't cried in a decade.

However, her abuse was so confusing and extreme that I cried in front of her during the devaluation phase.  I had just gone out of my way to give her some of the nicest gifts and do some of the nicest things I'd ever done for her and she was treating me worse than anyone had ever treated me in my life. 

She could not handle this.  I can't cry and also be her host.  You're right, it's about mirroring here.  When she made me happy, I was happy, and she saw this happiness as a reflection of the good in herself.  This is "mirroring for value," or "dual projective identification."  But when the fighting starts, and the partner is unhappy, sad, angry, upset, etc., mirroring stops working properly - the pwBPD is no longer getting a good reflection from the partner.  This means they're no longer good either.  So they have to get away and find a new mirror.

[benny2]

Gosh so confusing! Mine told me while I was in the bathroom crying because he told me to get out after I left my home and everything to be with him, that he sat on the couch laughing. Whether it was true or not, I could not believe he even said that. But he also constantly asked me if I was happy. How could I be? Maybe thats why he started to seek others, because he thought I was not happy. It is so difficult to find a way to tap into this. I'm not even sure if its worth it.