The move from Survivor to Thriver

[Jai Yen]

I've been on the Divorce board since October of last year. The group wisdom on this forum has been tremendous. They've helped me navigate some very choppy waters. I had my N/BPDw served divorce papers and an order of protection (due to her uncontrollable raging) early last month. She's lived and worked in her home country of Japan for going on 5 years. She's in Japan now. We have a D17 an S16. Fortunately, for them even before stbx moved I've been the primary parent. My D17 clearly understands why I MUST divorce her mother but my S16 is struggling a bit with it. He is seeing a T which seems to be helping.

The challenge I face is the contact I need to maintain with her due to a mutual business we operate. This online business (e-learning) is connected to her employment. It requires both of us to operate. The business is profitable.

I realized that because of the kids and our mutual business and assets I appeased her for years. Also, I seriously had a lack of understanding about her illness until about a year ago when I visited a T and he suggested she may have BPD. Prior to that time I though her condition was temporary due to cultural differences or menopause or bi-polar or ... .  You get the idea.

My situation is complicated because I rely on our business to make ends meet for the kids and me. I need to have ongoing communication with stbx because of this. She is not scheduled to come back again until August. I hope to have a divorce settlement meeting then. We meet weekly to discuss business matters.  I maintain a solid boundary with her that if either of our pulses goes up past 80 we can end the Skype meeting. We need to stick to business and avoid the emotional stuff. After our meetings I usual feel frustrated and bad. I use JADE and SET to help with communication, but I still feel a bit trapped in the FOG.

I feel stuck. I would prefer to have NC so I can continue to heal. For the past 5 years, since she moved back to Japan for work, I've learned to be myself again. I have a great group of friends I do things with on a regular basis. I take good care of my health through exercise, diet, socializing... .  Etc. I visited a T for a number of months which helped as well. My kids are thriving and they'll be off to college in the next couple of years. For the most part I feel whole. I want to feel completely whole. I want to live 100% of my time in the "Thriver camp"!

I'm actively developing new sources of income that do not involve stbx. My divorce attorney is excellent and we have a business attorney and accountant working on an exit strategy within 3 ~ 5 years for our mutual business.

Can I be a thriver and still have contact with my stbx? Can a thriver actual run a business with an ex pwBPD? When is it "OK" to start dating? I enjoy the company of women and want a new life with a healthy relationship. Is it best to wait for the kids to go to college to date again? Does anyone on this board have experience with transcendental meditation? I know time will eventually heal my wounds but I'm concerned that each meeting with stbx may be delaying that process... .  

[Matt]

Just about the Skype meetings... .  

* Is there a set time to start and end the meetings?  It might help to say, "I have another meeting at 9:45 so we need to finish by then."

* Do you have an agenda or list of topics to get through?  (If you only have 45 minutes available, and there are 5 topics, then you'll need to move quickly from topic to topic - 9 minutes each!)

* Can you imagine that she is just some woman you work with and only talk with her like that?

* Check your language.  If you say to other people, "Good morning." do you say something different to her?  Can you eliminate from your language anything you wouldn't say to any other co-worker?

* Do you have some ways to handle it if she goes off-track?  If she starts to talk about something other than business, can you say "I'm sorry - let's finish this meeting tomorrow at 9:00." or "I need to go to the men's room.  If you can wait just a few minutes then we can finish our agenda."?  Or maybe you can find some other way to interrupt what's going on.  Don't worry about being subtle or clever - just make it clear that you are not going to participate in the inappropriate conversation and she can either get back on track or the meeting will be over.

* Is Skype or phone really necessary?  Can it be done by e-mail?

* Could this 2-person meeting be combined with some other meeting so there will be more people involved?  It would be best to never be "alone" with her, even by Skype.

[Jai Yen]

Matt, all great suggestions. For the first 3 or so meetings after she returned to Japan things were ok. She remembered the rules and stuck to them. I was business like, to the point and quick to turn things back to business should she veer off track. This week's meeting was different. She started by crying and carrying on which lead to me abruptly ending the meeting. She blamed herself for divorce- which was a first and told me she was very depressed and wanted to "go home". I told she was home. She claimed her Japanese meds didn't fit her. . . . .

In your case, during the divorce process and afterward did you pretty much maintain LC or NC? How did/do you discuss kid issues with you ex? Did your ex finally reach acceptance after your divorce? Can you actually have a meaningful discussion with her now?

[Matt]

In your case, during the divorce process and afterward did you pretty much maintain LC or NC? How did/do you discuss kid issues with you ex? Did your ex finally reach acceptance after your divorce? Can you actually have a meaningful discussion with her now?

My kids were S8, D10, SD17 and SS29 when we separated, and they all acted out, in different ways.  My main focus was helping them cope.  (Oh and staying out of jail.)

My criminal defense lawyer made me promise not to have any contact with her at all - none - without a non-family adult third party present.

After the criminal charges were dropped, I communicated with her by e-mail, but only about the kids - very practical stuff like who would take the kids to soccer practice.  Over time it relaxed a little - I invited her to Thanksgiving dinner, which I later realized was relaxing too much.  But now, after 5 years, it's almost all business, and almost all by e-mail.  No discussion of the past and no emotions.

We did go to two marriage counselors trying to fix the marriage, but got nowhere, because she was completely uninterested in addressing her issues.  (The second marriage counselor told me about BPD, which helped a lot.)

To tell the truth, I don't really know if and when my wife accepted that the marriage had to end.  After it became clear to me that she was was not willing to change or get help, I did not talk to her about it anymore.

Can I have a meaningful discussion with her now?... .  well, a short one, about something simple and practical.  Not about the marriage or any other big or emotional issues.

As an example, D16 had some medical issues, and we needed to decide what to do, and deal with the cost.  I sent her an e-mail about it, and she called and asked some questions, and we had a good conversation about 5 or 10 minutes, about what D16 needed, what it would cost, how much would be covered by insurance, and how the rest would be paid.  Then I said "OK - thanks." and hung up - end of conversation.

Anything more than that - no way.

[Jai Yen]

Matt, are either or both of you remarried? Does she live in the same town as you? How much time do/did your kids spend with her? How did the kids do with visiting with their mother? Also, how did your divorce settlement go?

My stbx seems to only want to deal with her issues with medicine and alcohol and not dig any deeper. The kids and I haven't heard from her in almost a week. She doesn't return to work until month end. We have some business items to take care of but she's unreliable at this point which is frustrating for me.

My S16 is going to visit his mother in Japan in July and August. They seem to get along well. The son thing is big in her culture. Of course, I'm concerned but he's been over there for extended periods before and reports to me that he has a great time and feels safe. Last year he and D17 were there for 4 months. S16 lived in a separate apartment we own near his mother's apartment. D17 lived with her mother. She told me she loves Japan but cannot live with her mother - too tedious and stressful.  My D17 is not interested in visiting her and has already planned her summer to avoid it.

She'll be back in August. We have it spelled out in our parenting plan that she can visit the house for up to two weeks with my written permission. I will, of course, stay elsewhere (assuming things go ok between now and then). I'm hoping to have a settlement meeting then and get the divorce decree finalized so I can move forward. It's hard for me to set up a new business entity and move on until things are finalized.

[Matt]

No, neither of us are remarried.  But I think the way things are now, that will probably work out OK, because we aren't involved in each others' lives.

Yes, she lives in the same town.  That was a problem, because I had to move for work, and I tried to work that out with her, and she didn't cooperate.  Ultimately I had to offer her two options - either I would pay her moving costs and we could keep shared custody, or I would file for full custody and take the kids anyway.  (She is not in compliance with the court's requirement that she get psychotherapy.)  At the last minute, she agreed to what I had proposed several months before, and I moved with the kids, and then later she moved too.

(Actually I wish she hadn't moved - your situation is better.)

The kids spend regular time with her - each kids stays with her every other week, sometimes for just one night, sometimes for several - all depends how she is feeling.  That works OK - not great, but OK.  They take homework with them, books, etc.  She mostly stays in her room and the kids are on their own.  But they manage it OK.

Our divorce settlement took about 20 months, partly because we twice tried counseling after we separated.  Cost quite a bit, because she got a lawyer who was skilled in "discovery", and told her lawyer that I was hiding money - I wasn't.  So both lawyers spent a bunch of time and my money going over the same records several times.  We settled less than 24 hours before our scheduled trial;  if had been able to get an earlier trial date, we would have settled earlier and cheaper.

[livednlearned]

Can I be a thriver and still have contact with my stbx? Can a thriver actual run a business with an ex pwBPD? When is it "OK" to start dating? I enjoy the company of women and want a new life with a healthy relationship. Is it best to wait for the kids to go to college to date again? Does anyone on this board have experience with transcendental meditation? I know time will eventually heal my wounds but I'm concerned that each meeting with stbx may be delaying that process... .  

I think you're in really good shape, Jai Yen. You've had a lot of distance for 5 years. She lives in another country. You have your own friends and are taking good care of yourself. Your kids are heading to college soon. I think you can thrive while still being in contact with her, although it certainly isn't ideal. Many of us are in contact with our ex's, and while I wouldn't call it paradise, I do think you can reach a good place. I remember the point, about 1.5 years into my freedom, when I realized several days had gone by without grinding my teeth about N/BPDxh. And that's amazing, because he is constantly rattling the cage bars.

It's unfortunate that you have to have the Skype calls, but you have a good plan for phasing out in the next 3-5 years, and good ground rules if she starts something. Maybe you need to include some new additions to the ground rules, like ending the calls if she talks about non-business matters such as the divorce, or her health. You mentioned that her sister was involved in the business. Is it possible to have her become the main point of contact?

In terms of dating -- it's different for everyone. Someone on these boards said the rule of thumb is to take one month for every year of marriage to be on your own and heal. Double that for a high-conflict marriage. I was married 10 years, and it took me 24 months before I felt truly ready to date. By ready, I mean not dragging around a ton of N/BPDxh baggage everywhere I went. At the 2 year mark, I met someone who was ending his 20-year marriage. But he and his ex lived in separate parts of the house for years and she had an affair. They were going to wait until the kids were out of the house to divorce but it didn't make sense after she started seeing someone else. At first I didn't believe someone could be emotionally done before the divorce was final, but after hanging out with him for 3 months, I think he really is. So it's different for everyone. If you aren't ready, you'll know. Maybe ask a few women out for coffee and see how it feels. What you want to watch for is a tendency to pick another abuser, and that takes some soul searching. Being an appeaser is something you want to watch -- and it's tricky, because to nons, being an appeaser is like breathing air.

The Building healthy relationships board on bpdfamily.com is helpful if you want advice, or have questions about dating after BPD.

[Jai Yen]

Thanks for the input LnL. We've been apart for her for going on 5 years and before then it wasn't great. She went out with her coworkers 3 or 4 times a week and left me to care for the kids after long days of work. Someone had to be the adult. Exhausting times. Nearly divorced her then. Now is better. I feel empowered. I've made it clear during our meetings that if she crosses the line I'll cut the call. I've done it. She knows I'll do it so that helps keep her in line. I told her clearly and in no uncertain terms the marriage is over and if she can't work with me I understand. She backs down and makes it clear she wants to cooperate. I need to cooperate for a while with her but not much longer and the more we disentangle and I get more and more stable financially the better. A year from now things should be finalized divorce-wise and life will be much better.

I remember the point, about 1.5 years into my freedom, when I realized several days had gone by without grinding my teeth about N/BPDxh.

Not there yet but getting closer. I, at times, get really POed at her just recalling all the BS she's pulled and at other times pity her and feel empathy toward her because of her illness. I really look forward to having fewer and fewer thoughts of any kinds about her. That time is coming.