I, in fact, was not yelling at all.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

During last night's dust up, I heard again from my pwBPD wife that I was "yelling". I, in fact, was not yelling at all. I was trying to be very, very calm and not raise my voice at all. When I challenged her about this, she said "Well, yelling isn't just about volume; it's about saying rude things to me, or being mean to me, or not listening".

(Vent portion)

How ridiculous is this? Surely my very, very intelligent wife has SOME concept of how idiotic things like this sound? How much of this foolishness can one person endure?

(Question portion)

Has anyone else heard this kind of nonsense? How do I deal with it?

[coasterhusband]

During last night's dust up, I heard again from my pwBPD wife that I was "yelling". I, in fact, was not yelling at all. I was trying to be very, very calm and not raise my voice at all. When I challenged her about this, she said "Well, yelling isn't just about volume; it's about saying rude things to me, or being mean to me, or not listening".

(Vent portion)

How ridiculous is this? Surely my very, very intelligent wife has SOME concept of how idiotic things like this sound? How much of this foolishness can one person endure?

(Question portion)

Has anyone else heard this kind of nonsense? How do I deal with it?

[arabella]

Interesting. Yes, technically her definition is completely off... . but I can also see what she's getting at. I've felt 'yelled at' in the past without the volume rising. I think what she's trying to say is that she felt verbally attacked. What she feels becomes her reality. This is common in pwBPD. So if she felt yelled at (defensive, cornered, ashamed, whatever) then, in her mind, you yelled at her. I know it doesn't entirely makes sense, but there you have it. The solution? More validation, more detachment, walk away from the argument sooner - the lessons can help with these things (especially the ones re "stop making things worse" and "stop the bleeding".

Good luck!

[coasterhusband]

Thanks for the insight... . it does make sense (how messed up is THAT?).

I'm just not sure how to respond in a situation where one person is flat out, top volume yelling, while the other person is talking quietly and trying to be reasonable, and when the quiet one says "please stop yelling", and the yelling one responds "ONLY IF YOU DO TOO!"

I guess that's why I have to do the reading, eh?

[Somewhere]

Study some on "projection."  You get blamed for what they do.

----------------------

Something to notice -- see if there is a persona shift when this stuff starts.  There is absolutely no point in discussing much of anything with persona(s) if they are present.

Yesterday my daughter got trapped by Mrs. Somewhere in persona of whom I call "Lilting Girl."  Voice, affect, face changes.  The voice "lilts," and she is Highly Manipulative.  Mrs. is still trying to stop our daughter from getting help via Ala-Teen, and we were heading out the door in a couple hours to go.

On the trip, Daughter started asking me about the persona(s).  She renamed that one Lili-Teen Girl for her, so she knows not to fight or directly deal with Mom when she is wacked out like that.  Ala-Teen has taught her to not listen to the crazy, and just be kind and polite, talk to me or them or other professionals about real problems.  Sort of what we all do, I suppose.  Maybe the same for you.

Some of the persona(s) we have to deal with are (my names) "Raging Retard," "Lilting Girl," and "Teen Agnst."  Rest of the time there is Mrs. Somewhere, who is not so bad, but she has been absent a lot, lately.

But no point in arguing with crazy, is there?

[coasterhusband]

I hadn't really thought about it as persona shifting, but now that you mention it, yes... . there is some of that. I'm not sure it's a full blown, self-contained persona, but it's definitely like that. She gets in a sad place where there is no logic, no value in discussion, nothing but sadness, crying, blaming, and demands for "solutions". (Which is a huge joke because anything I say regarding "solutions" isn't something that she accepts in any form... . it's about "stopping the pain", not "finding solutions". She's just a very black and white, task oriented thinker, so she doesn't think it's anything other than a solution finding trek)

I'll have to think about that more. My biggest issue is trying to find the power in myself to walk away in the midst of crazy. My personal kryptonite, apparently is hearing "YOU PROMISED YOU WOULDN'T ABANDON ME AGAIN! THIS ISN"T THE WAY TO TREAT YOUR WIFE! COME BACK HERE AND BE A MAN!" screamed as a walk down the hall trying to take a break.

Thanks for the insight.

[briefcase]

I think the "yelling" is more about how she feels than about the actual volume of your voice.  Tone and non-verbal cues can also be a factor. 

Don't worry about the pushback you get when you take a break and walk away.  She does not want to disengage.  She wants to increase the intensity to try to bring you around to whatever her way of thinking is.  She won't like efforts to decrease the intensity.  But, its good for her and necessary for you to take breaks when things are spiralling.   

[crazylife]

It's very hard at times not to get pulled into a BPD storm, but if you can figure out how to recognize triggers and ever do it effectively once... . it will be a huge motivator to do it every time... Detaching is very helpful all the way around. But all this requires mental planning, which isnt easy to do when you are expecting crazy to run out in front of you at any moment. I personally have started waking up early where I have alone time very first thing and mentally getting myself in a positive frame of mind. I get little emails from positive gurus to read. Then think of my life and situation and try to  replay in my head what I want to happen if things go wrong. It seems to help me.

As far as walking  way and her feeling abandoned, tell her you need to use the bathroom, then give yourself a time out. Or have a list of things you  could possibly need to do so she doesnt feel abandoned. then remember them and use them as necessary.

I think  we all feel so invalidated we feel like we have to fight back sometimes. And while t may make you feel good  for the moment, it doesnt for the long run. Hang in there.

[arabella]

My biggest issue is trying to find the power in myself to walk away in the midst of crazy. My personal kryptonite, apparently is hearing "YOU PROMISED YOU WOULDN'T ABANDON ME AGAIN! THIS ISN"T THE WAY TO TREAT YOUR WIFE! COME BACK HERE AND BE A MAN!" screamed as a walk down the hall trying to take a break.

I might try something along the lines of "I don't want you to feel abandoned. I just need a little break so that I don't make this worse. I promise that I will come back." Also, sometime when she is calm, in a good frame of mind, and you aren't arguing over anything, try bringing up the idea that you think sometimes you need a break during disagreements. Emphasize that it is for YOU - definitely not because of her. I've used this tactic and it really does help me make an escape the next go-round. Flattery generally helps with the explanation too... . i.e. "You know, sometimes when we are arguing I get very flustered. You tend to be able to think on your feet faster than I can. I just need to be able to take a break sometimes so that I can calm down and think about things a little more. It isn't your fault, but I need that extra time so that I can figure out what I'm trying to say. I don't want to make things worse by saying things I don't mean just because I'm upset. I just wanted to let you know so that you don't think I'm trying to avoid the issues. I promise that I'll always come back to finish our discussion."

I also agree re the personas - make sure you're talking to the right one before you try any of the above!

[pixiepie]

I got caught in an online chat storm with my pwBPD last night and I feel he was spoiling for it. He accused me of being childish and selfish about something I said, and taking for granted all of the 'forgiveness' he has shown me (don't get me started as to WHY)... . I apologised for his take on it, and said thats not what I had meant in my response and that respectfully I felt that we were looking at the same object and seeing different things and the conversation was coming unstuck. his response was 'you asked for 10 minutes and I've given you 30, Im going to bed, sleep well'

at once he ignored my back down, dressing me down like a child that he had so benevolently given me 20 additional minutes of his time after ignoring me for 4 days and leaving it till after midnight to talk to me despite taking a 38 minute long skpe chat with another friend at the same time.

What I've learnt is I can no longer talk to him on the internet, for MY safety not his or else he looks for holes to pick at. While no 'yelling' was involved in this, he like your wife looked for a ridiculous breach in the communication in order to kill you with it.

[waverider]

Once you start heading into this dysregulated state, the only answer is to disengage.

Nothing makes much sense after that. She is simply not listening, simply trying to validate her own anger by painting you as the cause or at least co offender.

[whereisthezen]

When I hear that I am yelling I actually want to yell to show him the difference ! Seriously it is so annoying it is definitely the tone and context with BPD, many times they are hypersensitive. You're not yelling but the reason why they hear yelling or shouting is because it is not SOOTHING to them.

So there you go, get in a disagreement or tough discussion and nm cant make a joke tonite. Soothing is the answer but its against all normal bodily functions apl the time! !

[SadWifeofBPD]

she said "Well, yelling isn't just about volume; it's about saying rude things to me, or being mean to me, or not listening".

I have experienced this. I've even whispered, and have been told that I'm yelling at him.  He would grossly misrepresent my words and claim that I said things that I never said (but I guess his brain thought he heard).   I began resorting to emails to communicate so that he couldn't claim I was yelling or using a "tone".  I would be very careful with my emails not to put forth angry sounding words/phrases.   Because of the emails, at least I had proof when he'd later claim that I said something that I hadn't.

His big thing used to be that I used a "tone".  When I pointed out that he uses a "tone" with me, he vehemently denied it.  When I asked which one of us gets to determine whether a "tone" was used, the "talker" or the "listener".  He said that he gets to say whether he used a tone and he gets to determine whether I used a tone.  When I pointed out that that wasn't fair, he said it is because he's "more honest."    A T finally told him that that wasn't fair. 


Now that I know more about BPD, I understand that ANY words that make them feel "less than good" about themselves are words that they don't want to hear and they view as "yelling".


It's interesting that your wife views "rude words" as yelling.  While many of us view rude words in a negative light, to a BPD person, any words that make them feel bad are the fault of the speaker.  So, if they bounce a check, and you mention it (even calmly), the fact that you've brought the issue to their attention makes them feel bad, so you're the bad person (kill the messenger).

My H also views "not listening" 24/7 as being rude. Yes, we all think that if someone is ignoring us, they are being rude.  BUT, He gets angry if I don't hear him say something if I'm in another room or if I'm near a noisy appliance.  He gets mad if I ask him to repeat what he's said because I didn't hear him.  He'll say that I'm "not listening", but sometimes he'll be in his walk in closet and I'll be in the kitchen and he can't understand why I'm not hearing that he's asking where some clothing item is. 

[mssngpeces]

Coasterhusband,

I too have experienced this very same thing with my exBPDgf. Much like other posts here it was about the tone I would take. I tried everything and went through the bad and the healthy. Initially at the beginning of the relationship when I had the majority of my sanity I tried to resolve conflicts in a normal manner. This NEVER worked. Blame was always shifted back to me and the crazy making techniques of my exBPDef were in full effect. I had no clue what was happening. Having all normal forms of communication broken and ineffective I would yell and get the silent treatment. When I realized that my ex knew how to push my buttons and that was the response she was hoping for in order to validate the horrible things she put me through and label me as abusive I tried being understanding and going back to a more calm and cooperative approach. I had been verbally abusive before from a few comments made in the heat of yelling matches. At this point I was a couple years into the relationship and seeing a therapist and was now aware of the dynamics of our relationship and that she was very dysfunctional, yet I was still trying to save/fix/help her. The calm and rational arguments scared her and she always claimed that I was yelling when I never was and in fact she was yelling at me. I don't know if she was recalling all of the yelling that we used to do or if she perceived me standing up for myself and setting boundaries and calling her out on her behaviors and wrongdoings as a threat. She was still unable to take any blame and thus it was easier to shut me out, label me as abusive, or claim that I was harassing her.

One example was one of her secret affairs with a married man that she finally told me about after months of being secretive. In the depths of pain I sent a flurry of text messages which were all ignored. Moments before I learned about this she was professing love for me and then I was cut off completely and had my number blocked and labeled as an abusive harraser. She often triangulated with her mother who paid for her phone to cut me off and label me as a bad guy. Time went by and she took trips with this married man and he bought her things and took her to nice dinners all of which she later admitted to me as something she wanted to use him for. She said the same about other guys too I just didn't believe it was me as well. I ended up forcing myself back in to fulfill my codependant needs and be in her good graces and get her to see how being with a married man was wrong. She ended up coming back to our dysfunctional dance but the point is she NEVER wanted to talk about what she did. Every time I brought it up or wanted to discuss it in a calm manner she wouldn't do it and often shifted blame to me or would say things like "Why can't we just live in the moment?"

Healthy communication is just not possible in a relationship with a BPD unwilling to get help. They don't want to understand, take responsibility and accountability, and grow. They want to remain in chaos and drama to feel something. Once you have broken their expectations and want something in return then you are always yelling. 

[Seb]

This is so weird... .   my exuBPDgf used to do this all the time! We'd be talking about something, and the moment she didn't like something I had to say, I got: "Stop shouting at me!". I was stunned, she always did this, and I always had to point out, very calmly, that I wasn't shouting or raising my voice in the slightest. This was way before I even knew about personality disorders, but it used to amaze me how she could misconstrue my words in to me yelling and shouting at her... .      

[tuum est61]

Once you start heading into this dysregulated state, the only answer is to disengage.

Nothing makes much sense after that. She is simply not listening, simply trying to validate her own anger by painting you as the cause or at least co offender.

Yep,  As soon as my uBPDw starts yelling "YOU ARE YELLING AT ME!", I make my exit from that particular conversation or in fact, the room. Sometimes I will toss a little validation in in the form of "I can see it won't work for you to  try to talk about this if I am yelling at you," as I leave.

[tuum est61]

During last night's dust up, I heard again from my pwBPD wife that I was "yelling". I, in fact, was not yelling at all. I was trying to be very, very calm and not raise my voice at all. When I challenged her about this, she said "Well, yelling isn't just about volume; it's about saying rude things to me, or being mean to me, or not listening".

(Vent portion)

How ridiculous is this? Surely my very, very intelligent wife has SOME concept of how idiotic things like this sound? How much of this foolishness can one person endure?

(Question portion)

Has anyone else heard this kind of nonsense? How do I deal with it?

You know, as I think about it, your W's words are fairly profound and a good place to validate how she feels.  She actually has admitted your aren't yelling but are being "rude" and "mean", and "not listening."

Rather than JADE about the volume of your voice, just validate that she feels you are rude and mean and not listening.  

"You are frustrated because I am being rude/mean/not listening to you." "You aren't finding this to be a helpful conversation."  "Let's try talking abou this again tomorrow after dinner."

And since you weren't likely being mean, rude, or not listening about whatever it was you were talking about, it likely wont come up again.   If it does,, use the same tactic.

This may sound a little flippant, but I am done arguing about whether I am yelling or not.  It is the most pointless discussion.  I now end up yelling on ocassion - in response to yelling - and don't apologize much for it anymore - but once it reaches that point - I look for the exit.