Have I been fair?

[maria1]

Ok Staying people I need some of your sage advice please

3 months ago I told my expwBPD to 'F*** off'. Those were my last words to him before deleting my email address. He managed to get in 'Ok but get some help because I recognise the slide when I see it'. He had just before asked me if I was 'talking to anybody' (as in getting therapy).

The backstory is that we were a couple for 10 months up until May last year. He was coming out of an acrimonious divorce and when I met him he told me he had smashed a TV in his house when his wife had told him she wanted a divorce. He also told me he punched a teenager in the face who teased him whilst he was out running. He said he went to his GP worried about his anger and his GP prescribed anti depressants. I was impressed at a man who could look at himself and recognise he needed help, never having had that before. I knew nothing of BPD despite having trained as a mental health nurse.

He has a young son, same age as my son. His ex wife appeared to constantly use my ex for child care without negotiation. If he wanted to negotiate on times she would just threaten to pull access. She appears very narcissistic. At times during our relationship I mediated between my ex and his wife in order to maintain my ex's contact. I did it because everybody else pulled out. Their relationship appears absolutely NPD/BPD dance. She got a non molestation order against my ex whilst I was with him to stop him contacting her about anything other than child contact. She said he abused her. She never said how, even the divorce papers only cited unreasonable behaviour from the day she asked for a divorce.

Anyway he took an overdose whilst we were together. I guessed he was about to take another whilst he was in hospital; he gave up the pills to me. I spent a month following on suicide watch when I wasn't with my kids. He got better. In May he told me he wanted to his last bit of healing alone, that he was a b****** in relationships and that we had to remain best friends or he would kill himself (he later retracted the bit about killing himself when I asked him more about it but I wasn't sure). I found out a week later (from his ex wife) that he was actually seeing someone else, he go more and more dysregulated, I became scared for my safety and went NC (the police were involved although he never directly threatened violence).

3 months NC he comes back saying I'm so sorry please let's try again. I say no way it's too late. He keeps trying to wear me down, I go a bit mad but hold my ground. Eventually we settle on friendship but I stipulate I cannot let our friendship be part of my children's lives and I cannot give him my mobile phone number. This is because I do not want my life taken over by him again. I just can't have that. He also pulled my children in very close to him very quickly and they were very upset when I went NC. I won't risk them becoming emotionally involved again.

Anyway... . I told him to F off because I had to break off contact and that is the best way for us really. He knows me and, as much as that might sound strange to some of you folks, I have tried many times to break contact in more healthy, assertive ways and it doesn't work. F off he understands, we both understand.

Part of me feels unfair. When it happened he was pushing at me because I wouldn't let him have my number. He arranged to meet me and then told me his windscreen had smashed and he 'couldn't even ring me' to let me know. He said 'It's ridiculous I haven't got your number'. He had also been pushing about his son and my son being friends which I have said isn't an option.

He's contacted me recently. I haven't responded. I feel mean. In all the time we tried the friendship thing he seldom pushed at my boundaries.

He has a side which hates himself, obviously, he has very clear BPD traits. I feel that my ignoring him just feeds that and I'm being dishonest in a way because there is a lot about him that I like.

But I don't want to give him any hope of a future and I don't want to feed that BPD side either.

I'd like to be able to maintain LC because I don't like NC and never did.

I have no hope of a romantic relationship and if I do maintain LC it has to be light and not heavy and I'm not sure he can do that.

I've come this far in detaching and feel detached enough for contact but we do mean something to each other. In some ways I don't want to dismiss that altogether by maintaining this cold silence toward him. Even though I might think it's caring he doesn't know that.

Any thoughts from anybody?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[maria1]

PS one of the things I like and respect about him still is he has some awareness about how messed up he is and about the pain he causes those closest to him including his son and his ex wife and mother. He has been in therapy but it's difficult to access without paying for here in UK. He was seeing a psychologist and I think she may have understood his problems very well. She went off sick and I didn't believe him until he showed me the letter. He was told she would be off sick for 6 months.

When he gets insight into how damaging he is he becomes suicidal.

[united for now]

Is there any fear or sense of obligation creating your doubts?

[maria1]

I don't think so. I think I see others behaviour, read others struggles, see other people around me in what appear to be 'healthy' relationships and I think I haven't been fair on him. He tried, he had his issues, has his issues. He has a serious problem with attachment and always will have. I don't need him close. But I think I've been unfair cutting him off- he was just having a kiddy tantrum about the phone. My tolerance is low. I was scared of getting pulled back into the fog.

My fear is only that I am blaming it all on his disorder when part of any friendship/ relationship is normal stuff. I didn't allow him any of that and I feel bad. I think I've been too black and white and I don't like myself for it.

[maria1]

I posted in PI earlier that I realised he was good at blowing away the negative voices in my head. I was thinking about that and how he was a good friend. It's not so much that I want him for what he can give me again its that I have been unfair for not appreciating the good. Because the bad was pretty bad. But the bad never came back. I was just always waiting for it to and I think that's where I've been unfair.

[united for now]

Inconsistency increases the dysfunction... .   in that it sends the message that we don't mean what we say. It breaks any respect they have for us.


So you need to be clear on your goals and intentions.

[maria1]

Yep agreed. If I stay I need to stay and not react like I did. I was inconsistent already. I am being inconsistent if you like. So I could just make the best of a bad job and keep away.

I'm left with a feeling that he made a huge effort to stay regulated, stay consistent, not push at my boundaries. He went against his nature and when his BPD pushed him to push I ran.

I need to be bigger than the illness as it peaks and troughs and pushes us both around. I was doing that. It was ok. I am only one part of his life.

[patientandclear]

Hi Maria! 

To be completely honest, I have been expecting this post.     It is obvious in what you write that you really like your ex (despite occasionally saying you don't like him very much -- and believe me, I understand straddling that line) and that you miss him.  And it's never been very clear to me that he did anything intolerable leading to this most recent stretch of NC -- it seemed more like your own feelings oscillated a bit and you got to a point of needing or wanting him to play a role that scared you, perhaps rightly.  Anyway, hope you don't mind my saying that I have imagined you might revisit this question.

Here are my thoughts in light of my own protracted experiment with having my ex in my life in a significant way.

You have often written that you would not consider renewing a romantic r/s with this man because you know for sure that as soon as you got close to him, he would hurt you.  As you know, I have played that out with my ex.  We never overtly crossed the line into romantic/sexual territory after commencing our post-r/s "friendship" (on which, more below) but we did get very close.  Then he engaged in cycles of distancing out of the blue, culminating in suddenly leaving town, changing everything about his life, etc., which inevitably had a big impact on our r/s.  So it played out that, yes, as soon as we got close -- even though we said we were just friends -- he hurt me.

I've spent enough time on this (Staying) board to know where I went wrong there.  I didn't quite achieve radical acceptance that this is what he does -- maybe I didn't fully understand it till it played out in full flower again.  I also developed expectations.  I didn't realize it -- I thought I had none -- but when he moved, it turned out that did violate a hidden expectation I'd had, that he wouldn't just implode the basic circumstances that facilitated a r/s that he seemed just as interested in building as I was.

I did have some success in accepting that he was going to engage in the distancing cycles, but I can tell you that was a painful and distorting process in itself.  I made myself accept and live through that, but over time I've come to see that being attached to someone necessarily comes with the hope that you will continue to see them tomorrow (or soon), and the reality that the floor might fall out from under you & everything might disappear overnight, really does eat away at the quality of the attachment you can develop for this person.  So you can try to develop love without any attachment.  That's a tough assignment.

You've said here or on your PI thread that things never got bad with him after the breakup.  You knew they could, from reading here, but they didn't.  I'd just say that is likely because he never fully "landed" you after the breakup; he was in continuous pursuit and you were in continuous flight.  If you warmed up and offered a real friendship, I think you would rapidly find that the classic BPD patterns emerged in the friendship.  Push-pull, distancing and partial truths combined with slivers of immense insight and closeness.

About the "no romantic relationship" piece.  As you know, I was tough as nails about this at the beginning.  I was sure he couldn't do it without hurting me again, too.  I was very clear about what I was doing this for.  And yet ... .   the truth is, we click in so many interesting ways, it is so gratifying to be with him, and then he began to push my rejection buttons, both by making a big show of "I only want to be friends with you" (which I'd never questioned, and which I now think was a big projection-fest when he himself wanted more), and with his distancing cycles ... .   and it wasn't long before at some level I was working hard to get his attention in those other ways.  He sent enough signals that this was a quasi-romantic liaison to him, too, that I feel like the truth is, it was for both of us.

The way you write about your ex, expecially compared to other men you've met since, I have my doubts that you guys can and will stay cleanly on the "friends" side of the line if you sustain any kind of warm connection.

I'm not sure that is necessarily wrong.  His offer to enter and remain in sustained therapy & then ask you to reconsider a r/s at that point is a pretty interesting offer.  Who knows if he would sustain it, and what would unfold during those couple of years.  I suppose you'd learn a lot.  After all the reading I've done on the boards, I am not at all convinced that therapy, even DBT, makes a dent in the relationship capacities of most pwBPD.  And your ex does seem to be very attached to his dual reality coping mechanisms, where he paints a certain picture for you & in reality is off doing lots of other inconsistent things.  So, I'm not saying I think this is a good odds situation.  However, I can see how it might appeal to you to try it & to play it out.

I suspect you will reiterate that you are not, not at all, no-how, open to a romantic r/s with him.  Again, I understand entering into this kind of connection with a firm commitment on that.  I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if you find that erodes and I can understand why you might make a decision to try again, low as I think the odds are that that would turn out happily.

Finally, though ... .   the one thing I don't think you should worry about is whether you've been "fair."  He doesn't sound at all put out by your current stance -- he's sending warm overtures on the dating site, etc.  I think if you change your position, you should do it because you want him in your life, not because of some sense of duty or fairness to him.  Frankly, he seems to enjoy it when you tell him to F-off.  Which is a little bit of a concern

Whatever you decide, we're here & I am here.  I like your guy, despite it all, and totally get why you would want to have more of a connection with him.

[maria1]

Patientandclear

Thank you so much  

Your thoughts are so valuable on this.

I'm in a strange place in my journey into 'me' right now. So much of my struggle with life is about having the conviction to stand firmly by what I believe, even when that goes against the grain of those around me. Part of coming through all this has had me seeing that so many of my so called friends aren't the true friends I thought they were. Weirdly I still come back to the place of feeling that exBPD is more of a friend than many of those people. Maybe I need new friends and that's OK and may come in time or not. I don't feel so desperate any more for that but I do wonder if I'm cutting my nose off to spite my face rather. The feeling of unfairness is yes, he didn't really do anything that bad; it was more a feeling of him wanting that control back that terrified me.

I NEVER want him to have my mobile number again. It's a massive big deal for me. He says he won't abuse it. I cannot trust that so I will not give it. He has to get that or we can't do it- that's why I blew. I do not want that closeness, that constant connection. What scared me was feeling the FOG rolling in. If I feel that again I need to stand firm. I was by the sea and that seemed to trigger me into some romantic jellyfish who didn't know who I was any more.

Also he lied to me and I just got fed up with his ridiculous childishness. We both pulled each other a little closer into a friendship. It felt nice, real. Not romantic but like a genuine friendship. I was looking forward to a walk on the beach with him. Laying a few ghosts of our relationship to rest. Having a laugh. I would like to be his friend.

I get what you say about questioning the romantic stuff. But something in there is long dead for me. I see him in an altered way now and the sexual attraction is twisted because of that for me. I could not sleep with him again because I see him as a child and because all my beliefs in his motivation for sleeping with me as was (ie. an expression of love as I thought) is terribly twisted too now. Whenever I remember us together romantically it is clouded by questions about whether he was with other women throughout. I've left that behind to a certain extent and can accept that some parts of what we had were good. But I know absolutely that I would be consumed with doubts and insecurity if I ever even thought about going back there. I also know he'd blow me straight out of the water as soon as we went there. The therapy doesn't appeal to me either. It does please me for him but not for me. I would always be unsure of him in a romantic way, always.

I did send him a short email yesterday in the end. I said I'd felt mean blocking him so unblocked him. Said I didn't like being 'broken friends' but we don't seem to manage friends very well. Said I was doing fine and everything was cool so that he didn't need to reply. We have a mutual 'rescuing' dynamic I have realised. Sometimes I wonder if we are both more CPD/BPD than anything else!

He sent me a reply this morning. Says he is doing a course at college, that he is focusing on his son who he has just got 50% custody for. He says he is still dating but very choosy but that's OK as he is just enjoying his time with his son and going to gigs. (He is me!)

He also says his GP has cut his anti depressant right down and aiming to be off it soon and he realises there's a difference between being depressed and having a bad day.

He ends his email:

"I do miss you Maria. I think we get each other? & it's great to have a mate who gets you.

I want us to be mates but I understand if you can't do that. I know I left a trail of destruction in my wake."

He actually does mindfulness quite well. He is a deep, introspective, intelligent man who wants to do the right thing. I can't help but think that the mirroring doesn't explain all that.

Oh and just before we all get excited (I know we won't really!) he also told me that his two most disastrous dates were in my local bar (bottom of my street) and my favourite bar. Thanks! This man doesn't live in my town!

[maria1]

I suppose the thing that we always had between us was an acceptance of who we were. The bad and the good. That is why we worked so well. When he ended the relationship saying he wanted to take the last steps of healing alone I accepted that as much as it really hurt. It felt like a huge betrayal to find out he was with another woman but really it was just the disorder pushing me away.

He is what he is. But he is trying to be better for those that love him. THAT is what I respect in him and that is what I seek out in friends. It's what I value. That's why I don't want to cut him loose. We help each other with that stuff now and again but I can't rely on it.

The question is, as always, how detached I can remain. That's a question only I can answer and I think I can give myself credit that I have come a long way with that. I know the answers and can find them within me.

Last week when I realised that I was feeling good then felt bad and realised that he used to challenge the negative voices in my head. I realised something else. I wasn't looking to BPDex to blow away those voices this time. But I did manage to give him credit for the positive stuff he's given me. And I've allowed myself to acknowledge that without looking to him to plug the gaps.

[sm15000]

Hello ladies trying to manage the ex BPD/NPD high functioning ex 

I've come to see that being attached to someone necessarily comes with the hope that you will continue to see them tomorrow (or soon), and the reality that the floor might fall out from under you & everything might disappear overnight, really does eat away at the quality of the attachment you can develop for this person.  So you can try to develop love without any attachment.  That's a tough assignment.

I've written on the board recently. . .my ex has asked to connect on a professional networking site after a year of NC.  I haven't replied. . .it's put me in a bit of turmoil again, asking the sort of questions that you are asking yourself Maria    What P&C has wrote above is one of the questions that has gone around in my head.  How can it be done?  I'm sure initially (and as long as I didn't question too much) I would see the best of him again. . .all the things I have so missed about him, the conversation about music, films etc we've enjoyed, the fun, the humour, the intellectual engagement that I don't find in many people.  How can you really do that without an underlying wanting as you said to see them next week, next month alongside the underlying waiting of the bad stuff 

Frankly, he seems to enjoy it when you tell him to F-off.  Which is a little bit of a concern

I wonder what the purpose of this recent attempt to connect is with my ex.  He always spouted at the end "if you tell me to go, I'll go now!" as if he knew from me it was over, that would be it.  He's always been the one to make contact, over and over. . .and now again.  I sometime wonder if it's just his N side and the chase.  He's been dating and had others in his life from before we ended. . .and I really do wonder sometimes if he's really felt the terrible hurt he espouses to. . .or if he just 'pops' into my life when he feels like it - and I've shown him I reply - to see if he can get a hook.  I also think part of him wants the relief that if I answer him and 'befriend' him that he's not that bad after all.

I would always be unsure of him in a romantic way, always

I know this too. . .there's too many elements of why I could never go down that road again.  It feels sad though, incredibly sad - that's the hideousness of the disorder. 

"I do miss you Maria. I think we get each other? & it's great to have a mate who gets you.

I want us to be mates but I understand if you can't do that. I know I left a trail of destruction in my wake."

He actually does mindfulness quite well. He is a deep, introspective, intelligent man who wants to do the right thing. I can't help but think that the mirroring doesn't explain all that.

Oh and just before we all get excited (I know we won't really!) he also told me that his two most disastrous dates were in my local bar (bottom of my street) and my favourite bar. Thanks! This man doesn't live in my town!

This sort of two sides to them does me right in 

It's this sort of stuff that keeps me wondering 'who is he' and 'how intended/contrived are his actions'?  And keeps me holding back from contact.  Sometimes I can get really paranoid over this Jekyll & Hyde stuff.  I saw the introspective side sometimes too, and the regret that he was who he was and did what he did. . .and then, wham - he'd do or say something that would make you think - I've been to hell and back, and you've been to the pub and back with a few different birds to take your mind off it.  Maria, does it ever go through your mind that you're just being made a fool of?  Because, that's what goes through mine - that's why I almost fear contact even though I would like it - sometimes it feels like one big game I shouldn't even contemplate playing.   

   

[patientandclear]

In the end, the inability to have a clear, solid understanding of what this thing between us -- which has cost me so much emotionally even though sometimes it feels worth it -- actually means to him, is what is defeating me.  The swirl of uncertainty.  Am I one of 10 women he involves like this in his life?  One of two?  Or the only one?  Maria, it was interesting to remember that your ex said he needed to do the last stages of healing alone, to explain ending things with you; and then you learned he was actually with someone else while remaining connected to you.  That is exactly the same scenario my ex played out with me when we were contemplating getting back together.  Because I do believe we have a truly close connection, I still cannot quite bend my mind around the reality that he was also putting in a big effort to get close to this other woman while ostensibly needing to be alone.  It's all so real and unreal at the same time.

I still puzzle over whether our bond is really important to him, as it is to me (actually, I don't really have much doubt on that score)?  If so, why does he act like we're disposable?  Why does he do things that are utterly at odds with maintaining the connection between us?

The contradictions in the relationship are really hard.  I can never ever feel that the ground under me is solid, no matter how we define the r/s or what rules I use to fence myself off from unhelpful hopes and expectations.

I think to some extent this does become a game for them, but not a game for fun.  A game for self-definition.  They can have someone they respect and value, who loves/values/respects them, but then also, they can regulate how much they depend on this by periodically devaluing it and pushing us away.  So they end up with an ideal BPD scenario of just enough intimacy without any corresponding ties or obligations.  And after a while, I suppose this affects the way they view us, too.

For a while I felt I understood that and it was OK.  But at some point, they cross a line where the pushing away feels like it breaks all the rules of what a meaningful friendship or bond with another person has to be.  For me, this came when my ex abruptly left town, acted like it should be no big thing for me, and announced he was relocating to a different city 36 hours after arriving there.  I was letting him go, loving him from a distance, letting him go ... .   it hurt but I was doing it ... .   and then all of sudden, something in me just couldn't let it go anymore.  I had to reach in and, in the gentlest way possible, question why he was doing this, and point out that he stood to lose a lot between us (maybe with others, but I spoke of us) if he did this.

So I started insisting on the value of the relationship and the importance of not just tipping it over the cliff periodically.  And he has completely shut down.  He's not responded, and it feels now like I won't ever hear from him again.

So this problem of where you draw the line between loving someone in this no-expectations kind of way, and allowing yourself to be completely taken advantage of, without any accountability at all, is a tough one for me.

My ex used to tell me (post-break up, after we reconnected as friends) that he felt I was naive.  He said I would offer him explanations for his own behavior that sounded good (i.e., they would help explain what otherwise were bad actions, like, um, leaving me out of the blue, which I hypothesized was related to his trust/intimacy issues due to childhood abuse -- this was before I knew about BPD) but he ultimately decided I was wrong and he was just really being a jerk.  Somehow, continuing to withhold comment while he careens around smashing up relationships in the name of that amazing thing just around the corner that could be better, seemed like the ultimate example of that kind of naivete.  It seems like in the end, true enforcement of our own boundaries almost inevitably leads to the demise of these relationships, because the boundaries suggest that the pwBPD is behaving badly or in a way that is antithetical to the r/s, and they then react poorly to that.

At least, that's how it has worked out with my ex.  Maria, maybe yours has a higher tolerance for hearing criticism or something other than complete acceptance -- it sounds like maybe he does.  Maybe I could have been more validating in my assertion that the way he was acting wasn't being true to our relationship, too.  I don't know.  I only got to write about 8 sentences about it in total before he disappeared.

I do worry that as soon as he really has you, he will need to hurt you in order to prove to himself and to you that he is "free."  And setting the dynamic up as a continuous chase, as I did for a while, is exhausting and starts to feel less than genuine.  My ex called me on that -- asked me to please initiate seeing each other & not always leave that to him.  But when I did, it didn't go well -- it became a way for him to tell me no.

Maria & SM15000 ... .   I think we are incredibly valuable to these men (and SM15000, that is why you are hearing from your guy) -- both because a good connection with us takes away some shame/guilt, and because they get at some level that we genuinely care for them.  However.  I think think there is a very rigid ceiling on how far you can take that re-connection.  They are NOT going to let you become all that important to them.  They cannot let themselves depend on it.  I kept saying to my ex before he left that I would like it if he would try to trust me more.  He never would answer those points.

The more deep and real it feels, the more sad and confusing is the reality of the ceiling.  And after my 9 month experiment with reconnection, I feel like I have verified just how real that ceiling is.  It's cast in concrete.

[maria1]

Well, we are the ladies in the BPD/NPD friendship club aren't we?  

Patientandclear, thank you and I'm going to quote your first post and pick out some stuff from it-

In the end, the inability to have a clear, solid understanding of what this thing between us -- which has cost me so much emotionally even though sometimes it feels worth it -- actually means to him, is what is defeating me.  The swirl of uncertainty.  Am I one of 10 women he involves like this in his life?  One of two?  Or the only one?  You may be one, you may be one of 10. For me, I think I'm probably one of a few but I tend not to dwell on it so much any more. I did but I realised it makes no difference. There are things I give him and there are things others give him Maria, it was interesting to remember that your ex said he needed to do the last stages of healing alone, to explain ending things with you; and then you learned he was actually with someone else while remaining connected to you.  That is exactly the same scenario my ex played out with me when we were contemplating getting back together.  Because I do believe we have a truly close connection, I still cannot quite bend my mind around the reality that he was also putting in a big effort to get close to this other woman while ostensibly needing to be alone.  It's all so real and unreal at the same time. The closeness of my connection to my ex is much less now. The lies he told and still tells have pulled that connection into a false one for me. I think it can still be stirred up if I am jot careful and mindful. I actually see the connection as between our mobile phones and I will not text him again. It's too powerful. I see it as a leash in some ways. It was good in my eyes for much of the time too. I loved that feeling of being connected but my thoughts of where he was and what he was doing weren't based in truth

I still puzzle over whether our bond is really important to him, as it is to me (actually, I don't really have much doubt on that score)?  If so, why does he act like we're disposable?  Why does he do things that are utterly at odds with maintaining the connection between us? Because the disorder is him and the disorder makes him push you away and keep you close at the same time. He has to punish you for needing you

The contradictions in the relationship are really hard.  I can never ever feel that the ground under me is solid, no matter how we define the r/s or what rules I use to fence myself off from unhelpful hopes and expectations.You can have no rules between you. You can find your own rules, stand your own ground. I can decide I have been unfair to him in my own ethical framework and that cutting him out like that was based on an emotional reaction. It was and it was unfair. I don't want to leave it like that. That is maybe unfair of me again

I think to some extent this does become a game for them, but not a game for fun.  A game for self-definition.  They can have someone they respect and value, who loves/values/respects them, but then also, they can regulate how much they depend on this by periodically devaluing it and pushing us away.  So they end up with an ideal BPD scenario of just enough intimacy without any corresponding ties or obligations.  And after a while, I suppose this affects the way they view us, too.Yes, absolutely. I think this is very insightful and a great way of looking at it. They aren't doing it with malice aforethought

For a while I felt I understood that and it was OK.  But at some point, they cross a line where the pushing away feels like it breaks all the rules of what a meaningful friendship or bond with another person has to be.  For me, this came when my ex abruptly left town, acted like it should be no big thing for me, and announced he was relocating to a different city 36 hours after arriving there.  I was letting him go, loving him from a distance, letting him go ... .   it hurt but I was doing it ... .   and then all of sudden, something in me just couldn't let it go anymore.  I had to reach in and, in the gentlest way possible, question why he was doing this, and point out that he stood to lose a lot between us (maybe with others, but I spoke of us) if he did this.

So I started insisting on the value of the relationship and the importance of not just tipping it over the cliff periodically.  And he has completely shut down.  He's not responded, and it feels now like I won't ever hear from him again.You asked something of him. You wanted something back. You pulled. He pushed.

So this problem of where you draw the line between loving someone in this no-expectations kind of way, and allowing yourself to be completely taken advantage of, without any accountability at all, is a tough one for me. You have to remain detached. I have to remain detached. I have to accept that my ex is who he is. He lies, cheats and manipulates. He is also funny and good company at times. But that's not why I want to be his friend now. I want to be his friend because I respect that he's trying. I will look elsewhere for the funny good company stuff. I will stay in touch because he deserves not to be shunned in the way that I did. I think

My ex used to tell me (post-break up, after we reconnected as friends) that he felt I was naive.  He said I would offer him explanations for his own behavior that sounded good (i.e., they would help explain what otherwise were bad actions, like, um, leaving me out of the blue, which I hypothesized was related to his trust/intimacy issues due to childhood abuse -- this was before I knew about BPD) but he ultimately decided I was wrong and he was just really being a jerk.  Somehow, continuing to withhold comment while he careens around smashing up relationships in the name of that amazing thing just around the corner that could be better, seemed like the ultimate example of that kind of naivete.  It seems like in the end, true enforcement of our own boundaries almost inevitably leads to the demise of these relationships, because the boundaries suggest that the pwBPD is behaving badly or in a way that is antithetical to the r/s, and they then react poorly to that. That's up to them and ain't nothing we can do about that. We have to accept them and we have to accept us. We can work on us, we cannot work on them or us and them

At least, that's how it has worked out with my ex.  Maria, maybe yours has a higher tolerance for hearing criticism or something other than complete acceptance -- it sounds like maybe he does.  Maybe I could have been more validating in my assertion that the way he was acting wasn't being true to our relationship, too.  I don't know.  I only got to write about 8 sentences about it in total before he disappeared.

I do worry that as soon as he really has you, he will need to hurt you in order to prove to himself and to you that he is "free."  And setting the dynamic up as a continuous chase, as I did for a while, is exhausting and starts to feel less than genuine.  My ex called me on that -- asked me to please initiate seeing each other & not always leave that to him.  But when I did, it didn't go well -- it became a way for him to tell me no. I don't play the game. I won't be chased and I won't play chase. We are what we are. He hasn't chased. He sent one email over a week ago- no follow up and it wasn't even a FOGGY one.

Maria & SM15000 ... .   I think we are incredibly valuable to these men (and SM15000, that is why you are hearing from your guy) -- both because a good connection with us takes away some shame/guilt, and because they get at some level that we genuinely care for them(I'm not sure I would agree with incredibly valuable, I think they need people and some play some don't. I meet some needs for my ex, others meet other needs.  However.  I think think there is a very rigid ceiling on how far you can take that re-connection.  They are NOT going to let you become all that important to them.  They cannot let themselves depend on it.  I kept saying to my ex before he left that I would like it if he would try to trust me more.  He never would answer those points.

The more deep and real it feels, the more sad and confusing is the reality of the ceiling.  And after my 9 month experiment with reconnection, I feel like I have verified just how real that ceiling is.  It's cast in concrete.

I'm sorry you have been moving further into deep and real. I think I have been moving further into shallow and false. But our exes are still the same people, and so are we. And we both still think we would like them in our lives somehow.

I'm sorry it hurts you. It still hurts me but what hurts me is that I miss him blowing away bad stuff which I need to blow away myself. What hurts is that we can't just have a straight forward friendship and I need to stay mindful. But it doesn't HURT any more. That doesn't mean I can just dismiss our friendship though, that feels wrong. He still means something to me. I still care about him.

So much more to say- SM15000 I want to rely to your post properly but I've run out of steam for tonight. I will post more tomorrow. I will just say if you're reading- do I feel like I'm just being made a fool of? Hell yes! I imagine him sitting there with a great big fishing rod, reeling me in. But I remember the nights I slept beside him after the overdose and the nightmares and the sweat and the terror. That wasn't hooks, that was all real.

[sm15000]

Maria & P&C,

You both have a lot of insightful things to say. . .

My ex used to tell me (post-break up, after we reconnected as friends) that he felt I was naive.  He said I would offer him explanations for his own behavior that sounded good (i.e., they would help explain what otherwise were bad actions, like, um, leaving me out of the blue, which I hypothesized was related to his trust/intimacy issues due to childhood abuse -- this was before I knew about BPD) but he ultimately decided I was wrong and he was just really being a jerk.  Somehow, continuing to withhold comment while he careens around smashing up relationships in the name of that amazing thing just around the corner that could be better, seemed like the ultimate example of that kind of naivete.  It seems like in the end, true enforcement of our own boundaries almost inevitably leads to the demise of these relationships, because the boundaries suggest that the pwBPD is behaving badly or in a way that is antithetical to the r/s, and they then react poorly to that

So he knows it is s**t behaviour - even though he can't change it - so maybe he thinks you're being naive thinking he ever can.  Perhaps he feels the weight of expectation 'to change' and he doesn't believe he can.

My ex shouted at me "the trouble with you is you don't want the man you met". Of course, he can't understand the extent of the false image he portrays but can't maintain. . .but on a level he is right because 'that man' ultimately 'needs' things I cannot accept - mainly r/ships with other women, he lies and manipulates and cannot be truly intimate.  

So, you try to attempt friendship, and ultimately boundaries have to be enforced, as you say P&C, that means they will not be getting what they need - in fact quite the opposite, the stuff they react and tantrum to.

I also remember him texting "I'm sorry I can't put things right, I don't know how". . .at the time I was so confused and overwrought, in a way I dismissed it.  Now I find it quite poignant - and there's been a few others along the way. . .and then I ask the same question as Maria, "have I been fair?"

Maria, thank you for highlighting those points - I admire you, both of you - I'm not sure I am up to all this, even though in a way I wish I could be - and it's not related to any longing that we can get back together.  

The lies he told and still tells have pulled that connection into a false one for me. I think it can still be stirred up if I am jot careful and mindful. I actually see the connection as between our mobile phones and I will not text him again. It's too powerful. I see it as a leash in some ways. It was good in my eyes for much of the time too. I loved that feeling of being connected but my thoughts of where he was and what he was doing weren't based in truth

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly but what it stirs up for me is before I ended it my ex was involved with others (and had been for a while I think). . .he would text all sorts of stuff, text and then turn his phone off so if I replied it didn't go through, and yet he was doing something totally different to what he was saying.  I've also seen him in action before we were involved. . .he was doing it then with multiple women, and I've been on the other end of it now    As you say, you have to be mindful. . .yet I feel it could tip into all encompassing again very quickly.  How do you stop dwelling at all their actions and shift to OK, he's done or said that - it's happened, move on    I realise he's got every right now to do what he wants, see who he sees, and if we did connect he's not obliged to see me once a week or once a year. . .I'm just not sure if I can really hear it all and be able to brush it off.  I think it may hurt me, and I don't want that any more.

Phew, good luck ladies  

Oh, just an after thought. . .I think I've seen on the boards your ex's are around their 50's?  My ex started changing in the year before he was 50 - at first I thought mid-life crisis.  It turned into more but I am still adamant this was a factor in him.  I've read about ageing narcissists and I think his N side couldn't handle the ageing process.   He kept making random comments about 'age' but if I picked up on it, he would smack me right down that it wasn't anything to with that.  

[maria1]

 How do you stop dwelling at all their actions and shift to OK, he's done or said that - it's happened, move on  huh

I'm not sure it's entirely possible but I am trying. SM15000 I would say be very, very careful before you go back into contact. He has done OK without it, more importantly you have too. Now I am back in contact I am wondering if I might have been better just leaving him blocked on the dating website. Then I'd never have seen his attempt to contact me. Now we are in contact again I'm feeling a little defeated already, like can I really be bothered with this?

But then, I do have this moral obligation to do the right thing. I wish I knew where that one comes from cos it kills me sometimes but I will stick by my principles and I am proud of that. It is a constant in my personality I think, a centring effect in a life that didn't really have much of a centre growing up. It felt wrong that I had treated him the way that I did and that I was just ignoring him. But he was doing OK without me. I worry now that by going back in I have set off a potential trigger. I don't need that in my life or his.

To update the situation he said by email he still had a ticket he had got for a gig in June. I replied OK and asked if he was going to another gig in May. He said he already had 2 tickets and I could go with him if I wanted. This is a band we share a love of (him buying 2 tickets is no big deal, big gig goers do this and then find someone to go with). He also sent a link to another band he has tickets for. I'd like to go with him.

So... .   I can react one of two ways here. I can do the 'Oh no here we go , he is trying to hook me back in, he is obsessing again, oh no I need to REACT against the BPD or;

I can think do I want to go with these gigs, meet my needs.

But there is a third way and that's this. I acknowledge this man has BPD/NPD traits. I acknowledge we had a relationship which is over. For a long time he hasn't tried to overstep any boundaries. When he pushed at those once recently I ran. He didn't react to that. That's positive.

I can try 'light' friendship. I can keep the tools in my box when I see him. I can keep myself safe and continue to work on me. What is interesting is renewed contact doesn't make me feel particularly loved up about him, more the opposite. If anything I feel a bit yucky about him.

For me any thoughts of a deep and meaningful connection or any feelings of one is a warning to me that I am in too deep. I need to find deep and meaningful connections elsewhere these days. I'm working on having one with myself.

Something else my ex said in our short email exchange is that he doesn't do falling out any more. That doesn't mean he doesn't do being so infuriating that I do falling out though! I wonder whether our last interaction and me telling him to F off was actually him doing that. Interesting that P & C you say he enjoys me telling him to F off. Yes that could well be true. As if it's what he deserves and what he needs. So actually you could spin this that he has been in control of the whole situation all the time? During the last couple of months he was just taking the space he needed? Interesting thought!

[TigerEye]

Hi Maria1

As a fellow Brit I'm picking up on what you said earlier about finding it difficult to find treatment. Has your BP had a formal diagnosis? Was the psychologist part of CMHT or was it a precursor to DBT?

[sm15000]

SM15000 I would say be very, very careful before you go back into contact. He has done OK without it, more importantly you have too. Now I am back in contact I am wondering if I might have been better just leaving him blocked on the dating website. Then I'd never have seen his attempt to contact me. Now we are in contact again I'm feeling a little defeated already, like can I really be bothered with this?

I've had that feeling. . .it's strange.  Sometimes, I wonder if it's me going into defensive mode, actually annoyed at myself for biting again. . .and a bit emotionally immature in a way I suppose.  You are right to warn me to be careful. . .for both our sakes.  

But then, I do have this moral obligation to do the right thing. I wish I knew where that one comes from cos it kills me sometimes but I will stick by my principles and I am proud of that. It is a constant in my personality I think, a centring effect in a life that didn't really have much of a centre growing up. It felt wrong that I had treated him the way that I did and that I was just ignoring him

What is the right thing?  I sent an e-mail a year ago - he had it coming but it wasn't the best way to speak to him.  I thought many times of engaging to say that but in the end it seemed kinder to let it go. . .I always told myself though if HE ever contacted again, I would put into practice what I have learnt here and handle it better.  Now here I am wondering if I can do that or should attempt to do it but sometimes it seems so puerile to ignore.  He's left me alone for a year, as you say that's a good sign.

I can try 'light' friendship. I can keep the tools in my box when I see him. I can keep myself safe and continue to work on me. What is interesting is renewed contact doesn't make me feel particularly loved up about him, more the opposite. If anything I feel a bit yucky about him

I can identify. . .and if it doesn't sit well with you to ignore then this is the option.  I have read some of Maybeso's comments of how after a long period of time she has come to a position of managing contact with her ex. . .and what you describe above is how she has done it.  It takes time, hard work and patience to do it - I suppose overall how important is it to you?

[maria1]

For me I'm getting to the point of knowing that the right thing is what's right for me. But I don't want that to be hurtful to him.

Problem is with BPD our actions will be construed as hurtful whatever we do so we have even more to find the right thing for us and try to remain consistent, bear in mind the tools and not have expectations of them.

This man is never going to provide attachment or constancy for me. He wants me to provide it for him but can't allow that because of the disorder, so if you restart communication be ready for the push/pull. It will be there whatever you do.

This man is never going to provide anything for me. I am learning to provide all those things for myself. I respect the fact that he is trying the best way he can and as long as he does that and wants to explore that at times I'll try to be around the outskirts of his life.

'It takes time, hard work and patience to do it'

Does it? I'm not sure it needs to? Not if I'm detached. If it starts to take my time and focus that's a clue I'm not detached and I'm not in it for the right reasons. If that balance starts to shift I would need to reconsider. My validation isn't going to be like  the folks on the staying board because I'm not in a relationship so I'm not going to have the same level of contact. I will not have that same level of contact- I don't have space for it in my life emotionally any more.

[sm15000]

Does it? I'm not sure it needs to? Not if I'm detached. If it starts to take my time and focus that's a clue I'm not detached and I'm not in it for the right reasons. If that balance starts to shift I would need to reconsider. My validation isn't going to be like  the folks on the staying board because I'm not in a relationship so I'm not going to have the same level of contact. I will not have that same level of contact- I don't have space for it in my life emotionally any more.

No maybe not, perhaps that's a sign to me. . .because it has felt like that 

[maria1]

It has felt like that to me too. I can't be certain it won't feel like it again. That's partly why I won't give him my mobile number. I don't want him to have the ability to jump into my life any time day or night. I am not somebody who can just not look at my phone! ( i am getting much, much better though)

He is not in my thoughts in the same way any more. He is not the first thing I think of in the morning or the last thing at night. I don't have particularly nice thoughts when I think of him but nor do I have particularly nasty ones either.

Realism, balance, looking after me. Detached. Not sure it's with love any more but I think I still care.

Look after yourself first. If he has gone a year is it really worth it for you now?

[sm15000]

Look after yourself first. If he has gone a year is it really worth it for you now?

Thank you Maria, I intend to  

Is it worth it, mmm - i don't know, I tend to sway back and fro about that.  Basically, I suppose like some other posters on here. . .and yourself, there are many positive aspects to keeping my ex in my life.  I think the key is managing myself. . .and the process of shifting my feelings towards him - as in no expectations that he will meet my needs or provide me with any type of committed r/s.  

I also don't have as much information as yourself or some about my ex's 'problems'.  He has never really talked about his childhood, both his parents are no longer alive, and he has never admitted to issues he has to deal with.  It's basically the behaviours I saw before it ended. . .so really I'm not entirely sure what I'd be dealing with, especially as we are now both aware 'something is wrong' sort of thing.  What I experienced tells me he is more stable than a lot of accounts on here, although he a typical 'mask' wearer, so you will see the other side if you challenge behaviour that shames him. . .and that seems mostly to do with his need for other women in his life.  

I suppose I feel if I could let what has happened go, ask no questions, expect no further intimacy he could be a good friend. . .although at some point I'm sure he will test me over that!  Saying that he could purely just be saying hello and have moved on with someone else.

[maria1]

I suppose I feel if I could let what has happened go, ask no questions, expect no further intimacy he could be a good friend. .

I think I try to not see my ex as a 'good' friend. But I suppose that does him an injustice in some ways. In never having any expectations, in never letting him help me, in never relaxing and letting my guard down, I don't know if I do either of us any good.

What I do is project stuff on him that isn't necessarily there. It's easy with these boards to make a behaviour into BPD behaviour when it isn't necessarily. It's also easy for me to find the negatives in anybody that cares about me because rejection is easier for me, it's what I'm used to. That isn't fair on him. I could imagine all sorts when I was in the relationship, after intimate times. He used to shut down and go quiet on me. I would react to that and force his back against the wall with my emotions. What he wanted and needed was some quiet space, he tried to explain it several times but I didn't really listen. I just heard rejection, abandonment probably.

What I've done with my ex is find the negatives when there have actually been many positives to his behaviour over the past months. That doesn't mean he doesn't have BPD traits though, it doesn't mean he won't triangulate me with other women, won't lie to me.

It also doesn't mean I won't trigger him. But I'm not sure that I do, or that he isn't more capable of managing his illness/ behaviour than I give him credit for. I'm not sure about any of this in terms of him being all bad and someone I need to cut from my life. That doesn't work for me and doesn't sit too well. It comes from a place of anger or hurt when I do it and I don't think that's as balanced as I'd like to be.