My point in time with BPD

[Depression = 72% of members]

So I have had some contact with my expwBPD. I am not sure he would get a diagnosis of BPD. He has black and white thinking but is aware he does. He is also aware he pushes those he loves away. I am sure he has an attachment disorder that is very deep rooted. I do try to have contact but pull back from it when he tramples my boundaries.

Tonight we went for a pizza. I took him to a place I love in my area because the place we met outside was so obviously full of pretentious, moneyed types. My place is a new place that makes me happy (must add to my happy list ). It is unlicensed, has done no advertising but is always packed. The staff are lovely and the pizza oven is half the size of the restaurant. I wanted my ex to taste the Pizza there. He flew to New York when he was a teenager to have a pizza at a particular restaurant and he still goes on about the pizzas there, he was going to take me before he went bonkers and I woke up in BPD land.

It was OK. It was nice to see him. He does some of the stuff I expect from BPD but he is in a good place generally. We keep things light. At the end he says ':)on't be a stranger- I don't know how to be with you any more'. I said what do you mean? He says 'Oh you know, just don't be a stranger.' I said 'Ok, just don't get narky on me.' He says 'I won't, I promise. I know how to tread with you.'

So here we are. He is walking on eggshells to keep himself calm to stay in contact with me. I think that's OK. What's not OK is that when we were together (nearly a year ago now) I was spikey and pushed him away at times when he got too close to me. I do that in relationships. I do that when I feel insecure. I have noticed it in email conversations with men that I like. I look for signs they don't like me and check myself before getting sarcastic or tetchy with them. With BPDex I didn't check myself. I just had a go at him whenever he pulled away. But we pulled away from each other. We were never a match made in heaven because we both have intimacy issues. I can't say any of that to him because he is too busy telling me how fine he is.

I was slightly bored at times. I'm not so interested hearing his stuff any more and I don't think he is so interested in telling me. I used to LOVE listening to him. I still find him attractive in an aesthetic way but not in a way that I could sleep with him.

The thing is we spend so much time on these boards working on the problems, the moments of difficulty, that I think it's easy to forget that between all the s**t there is a functioning human being there whose company I can allow myself to enjoy. There is with my ex. That doesn't mean I excuse his bad behaviour or that I have really committed to staying. I find it hard to trust him and that will never get better. I still think the best way forward is for both of us to slowly detach and that is my overall goal. I do think that is happening over time.

I am very glad I have this place, that i have my group therapy and that I have the capacity to work on me. Thank you x

[maria1]

So I have had some contact with my expwBPD. I am not sure he would get a diagnosis of BPD. He has black and white thinking but is aware he does. He is also aware he pushes those he loves away. I am sure he has an attachment disorder that is very deep rooted. I do try to have contact but pull back from it when he tramples my boundaries.

Tonight we went for a pizza. I took him to a place I love in my area because the place we met outside was so obviously full of pretentious, moneyed types. My place is a new place that makes me happy (must add to my happy list ). It is unlicensed, has done no advertising but is always packed. The staff are lovely and the pizza oven is half the size of the restaurant. I wanted my ex to taste the Pizza there. He flew to New York when he was a teenager to have a pizza at a particular restaurant and he still goes on about the pizzas there, he was going to take me before he went bonkers and I woke up in BPD land.

It was OK. It was nice to see him. He does some of the stuff I expect from BPD but he is in a good place generally. We keep things light. At the end he says ':)on't be a stranger- I don't know how to be with you any more'. I said what do you mean? He says 'Oh you know, just don't be a stranger.' I said 'Ok, just don't get narky on me.' He says 'I won't, I promise. I know how to tread with you.'

So here we are. He is walking on eggshells to keep himself calm to stay in contact with me. I think that's OK. What's not OK is that when we were together (nearly a year ago now) I was spikey and pushed him away at times when he got too close to me. I do that in relationships. I do that when I feel insecure. I have noticed it in email conversations with men that I like. I look for signs they don't like me and check myself before getting sarcastic or tetchy with them. With BPDex I didn't check myself. I just had a go at him whenever he pulled away. But we pulled away from each other. We were never a match made in heaven because we both have intimacy issues. I can't say any of that to him because he is too busy telling me how fine he is.

I was slightly bored at times. I'm not so interested hearing his stuff any more and I don't think he is so interested in telling me. I used to LOVE listening to him. I still find him attractive in an aesthetic way but not in a way that I could sleep with him.

The thing is we spend so much time on these boards working on the problems, the moments of difficulty, that I think it's easy to forget that between all the s**t there is a functioning human being there whose company I can allow myself to enjoy. There is with my ex. That doesn't mean I excuse his bad behaviour or that I have really committed to staying. I find it hard to trust him and that will never get better. I still think the best way forward is for both of us to slowly detach and that is my overall goal. I do think that is happening over time.

I am very glad I have this place, that i have my group therapy and that I have the capacity to work on me. Thank you x

[Mara2]

First, I'd like to try that pizza place! 

Second, you sound good.  I think that once we figure out that it is not our job to fix our pwBPD, we sorta lose interest in hearing all about it.  For me I realized that trying to figure it all out and be his helper and fixer just kept me enmeshed.  Once I decided to let him work on himself I stopped being so all consumed with his prolems and found that I had let a lot of my own favorite things slide.  I'm starting to pick those up again. 

I always appreciate your comments, so I hope you will stay around for some time to come. 

[laelle]

Hey Maria 

In this relationship with your ex, what do you get out of it?

[maria1]

Not a lot! No seriously... .  it felt just like something alright. The intensity seemed to have gone. Last night we caught up like catching up with someone you were once close with, we had a laugh here and there. I forgot about BPD except when he was subtly trying to find out if I was seeing anyone. And when I was driving from one restaurant to the next with him following me, remembering how he would have shouted at me I was going the wrong way in the past and I would have told him F Off.

So, a friend to see every once in a while, maybe like some people would catch up with an ex. Honestly? I could do without it, I do feel a sort of responsibility. Part of it is that I like to face him because I make things out of stuff when they aren't facing me. I mean I'm very good at filling in gaps in my head.

But I'm sort of hoping he goes off into his new relationship now. He has just started dating a woman who has just come out of a 14 year r/s with a woman! I think a pattern is emerging that he likes to check out where I'm up to just as he gets into something with somebody else. Just in case I'm going to say OK baby let's try again. But that's only because new woman doesn't quite fit the role.

I have a few difficult people in my life that I can't get away from, my kids dad and his girlfriend, my father and my exwBPD. My exwBPD is the only one I can actually tell how I feel in some ways. Maybe that's part of it too. But I didn't share any feelings with him last night. I didn't feel inclined to and I realised he isn't particularly interested!

[maria1]

Maybe I can see how I've grown when I see him too. He is like a measuring stick. When I first saw him I got all giggly just like I always do. He is incredibly good looking and really good at doing the teasing, jokey, flirty, funny stuff. But that wears off SO quickly. Once we were sat in the restaurant he looked like a frightened rabbit. And if I hadn't kept the conversation going we would have just sat in silence which we did at times. SO many times at dinner he would just not talk when we were together. That must be FOO stuff. In my family the dinner table was the place you talked and it is now with my kids! Anyway I digress but I've given up trying to keep the conversation going at dinner with men!

[maria1]

Also... .  !

I think what I get out of the occasional contact is really seeing him for who he is. The more I work on me and see my own faults the more I see what I do wrong in relationships and I remember stuff between he and I. That doesn't mean I flip to thinking it could have worked but it makes me feel bad that I treated people the way I did. It makes me feel that some of the responsibility is mine.

But sitting opposite him last night I clearly saw a sort of fabrication of a person. He has some things that are clearly him but he changes his stories about certain things every time he sees me. That's just weird, and sad.

Today he isn't in my head. The obsessiveness is gone. As long as he stays away I think I can manage LC like this. I won't contact him. I really want to see the band we said we'd go to but he may be deep into it with new woman by then and that's OK so I'm not expecting to go. I'm sort of thinking I'll go if he asks me though cos I just love the band. Sneaky maybe? I don't know if it matters too much, we both need a gig buddy to see that particular gig. I'm not sure it would hurt anybody although it feels like I 'shouldn't'. I am really sick of all my 'shoulds' and 'shouldn'ts'.

[laelle]

Maria, you know I admire you so much, and without your support I could not have gotten as far as I have.  I am not in the same situation as you as my ex thinks im a horrible toad.

Your ex is a person... .  a troubled, dysfunctional, mentally ill person, but he is still a person.  I dont know if its fair to keep him at arms length because it reminds you of how much you have outgrown him.  I do understand how you feel tho and it would be an incredible temptation for me to do as well given the opportunity.

You arent really getting anything out of this relationship other than he gives you a good reason to practice your boundaries, some company and an ego boost.  Are you keeping tabs on him so you can prove to yourself that he is really disturbed?  Never a dull moment eh?

If you feel you can keep up with him and his manipulative ways by all means go for it.  It seems like a game to me and time wasted.  If you want to practice your skills of not backing away from people, dont start with him, find someone worthy of your time. 

[maria1]

Not sure- I can't say no to him so I have to find something in it for me. That's the truth. If I say no I'm abandoning and I know that hurts him deeply. Its confirming he is the useless worthless person he thinks he is. So I try to get something from it for me. Does that make sense?

If all i need to do is keep a little contact to avoid that abandonment isn't that ok? He doesn't boost my ego any more. What he sees in me isn't real.

[laelle]

I understand completely what your saying.  Is a bit of that tho (keeping his fear of abandonment at bay) guilt that you let him back in your life when you really didnt know if there was a place for him in it?  Bargaining? 

Its not me who can judge what is right or wrong for you, my only thoughts are concerned with your long term health and happiness.  I am also mildly curious as to how your relationship with your

ex progresses over time.

[maria1]

Yes it's partly guilt that I unblocked him on the dating site hence saw his message hence felt obliged to respond. As long as he was leaving me be I was OK. The difficulty I have is that I was inside his head with him through the suicidal stuff. I shared his nightmares when he didn't even remember them, felt the sweat from him as I lay next to him and he shook and spoke and whimpered.

It's probably all tied up to my own loss. My mother died young and my brother died of a heroin overdose which was possibly intentional. He didn't regularly inject and apparently his last words were 'f*** it, it's Christmas'.

Last night it felt like he wasn't as interested as he has been. That might just be my wishful thinking. I told him about the cfs more. I don't have much to offer him in terms of meeting his needs and I think he is realising I'll never cave on sex. He seems to have given up on his ex wife, I think he will give up on me if he hasn't already.

Apart from this conversation he isn't taking over my thoughts. He was a little before I saw him last night- I was worried how it would be. That is worth noting. But it was ok and he is gone again.

I appreciate your care Laelle. I would say the same to you.   Imagine your ex comes to you and says 'I'm sorry for all the s**t. I just want to be your friend and hang out every now and again. Please let me. My life is better when you are in it. I promise there won't be any heavy stuff. Lets just try'

[laelle]

I understand completely what you mean by giving in to your ex's want to keep you in his life.  He says he is better with you in it.  Is he really?  Are you better with him in it?  What do you want?

I would probably be a big bowl full of mushy Captain Crunch cereal if my ex came to me with the same proposition.  I am asking you questions that I would in all honesty have to ask myself when

trying to decide how to react.  I would want so much to do it, but there are some sure thing factors that would come into play.

1 I could not stand up to his manipulation

2 I could not resist his idealization

3 He knows my hopes and dreams

4 He can push my buttons

5 I love him

6 It would all end at zero again when he devalues me to a point where I am no longer worthy of his company

7 I would have to start the grieving process all over again.  Even as only friends.

I could not do it even if I long for it.  Its not good for me, and its really not good for him.  Yes, he will go and find temporary relief in someone else, but at least its not me who was enabling him to do it.  Love is love... .  I would be a part of his healing, but never again will I carry his pain and fear for him.

I realize that I am not as far as you in the whole value / self process, but I cant see how a relationship with this sort of dynamics would be healthy.  That being said, all of our situations are different, and I cant say how yours works for you, only how mine would play out.

One thing I know for certain, and that is that he ALWAYS spits in my face and leaves.

[Maryiscontrary]

Laelle, good job. I am proud of some of your recent posts.

Maria, please be careful with boundaries. You are on a good trajectory and you don't want to lose ground. Be very, very mindful of your values and feelings.

[maria1]

Laelle and Mary- thank you both. I posted a long reply earlier but lost it as board went to maintenance mode. Yes I need to be careful. I will get my reply together again properly later but thank you. Right now I am off to see some giant dinosaurs in a crazy show. 

[Cumulus]

Hi Maria. I have to stay away from the shoulds and shouldn'ts. For me it is like telling a small child, no. If I feel I shouldn't do it then I just have to try, and vice versa. It has to be more than that. I have to come to an understanding in myself about what I want, what I need. Then I need a plan. I can't chastise myself or then I really will go for the big one!  I guess what I'm trying to say is that the more I try and deny myself something the more I will try and undermine my good intentions to get it. I have to get past the point of denial and to the point of what I need in order to succeed. This sounds really convoluted even to me, hope you get the gist.

[maria1]

Hi Cumulus- yes it's convoluted but in a way I can simplify it. I am trying to find positives out of trying to stay in some sort of contact because I find it so hard to say no to him.

There are two issues really:

1. Is contact hurting me?

2. Is contact hurting him?

Laelle, I like your list so I'm borrowing it to help me with this.

1 I could not stand up to his manipulation I'm getting much better at it but not sure I'm always able

2 I could not resist his idealizationI think I am past this now; it lasts a short time then I just find it sad, even a little creepy now

3 He knows my hopes and dreams I so used to believe this of my ex. The other night at dinner with him I realised he has no idea what my hopes and dreams are. I think he has mirrored so many women since he's actually forgotten mine!

4 He can push my buttons He doesn't any more, though I am still waiting for the s*** to start

5 I love him I really can't say that I love my ex now. I care about him but I don't know if I could use the word love, even as in the love I would feel for a friend

6 It would all end at zero again when he devalues me to a point where I am no longer worthy of his company I'd quite like this to happen

7 I would have to start the grieving process all over again.  Even as only friends.see 6 above; If my only choice is intense friendship or being devalued I'd choose devalued and I've been wondering if I could actually bring it on. He would probably guess what I was doing though!

So I come back to is contact hurting me? Well, I don't know yet, not right now. I suppose I wish I'd stayed NC as I'd really prefer him not in my life. But I got to a point of thinking I'd been unfair in telling him to F off when all he was doing was being his usual disordered self. I felt I 'should' (yes, agree with you about the shoulds/ shouldn'ts Cumulus- a goal of mine to work on in group therapy) try and do it properly. I do push people away. I do get quite black and white with friends at times and I felt like I'd just dropped him when he was at a point of distress. I could have stood firm in a more grown up way. Everybody on these boards talks in so much more sophisticated ways of staying. But actually telling him to F off at that point in time was fine for me, and him. My problem is doubting myself.

He emailed me last night asking if I wanted to do something, made it jokey, said I can tell him not to be a pushy ******. Then said, 'Last night was good. Don't be a stranger.' I said I can't socialise 2 nights in a row. I said I can't socialise once a week due to my CFS which is all true.

So is contact hurting him? I don't know. I'm trying to keep it light, not get too engaged, not give him what he wants. I know this will cycle and maybe I'll just take the push next time it comes. He needs a girlfriend.It's possible that LC with me will help him devalue me and then I can just disappear quietly in time.

My only worry is that he hasn't got a girlfriend yet. I am concerned as to why that is. He started his last relationship just as I started mine and ended it just after mine did. I am concerned that he is mirroring me in this massive way and that my inability to recognise that is my fight against my own narcissism and ego. I don't want to admit he is playing this long game of trying to get me back because I don't see myself as a woman worth winning back. There is a fear that I may never lose him stalking me but I don't want to go there because I don't want to believe that I could be the one he stalks and that could mean I don't see that I'm not safe. That sounds messed up and it is messed up because I don't value him wanting me anyway.

[maria1]

Went to modify as the font change in Laelle's list hadn't worked. Modify button gone for now- anyway, just to be clear the numbered list is Laelle's and I've added comments but you can't tell where Laelle's finish and mine start so here it is again with my comments in bold

1 I could not stand up to his manipulation I'm getting much better at it but not sure I'm always able

2 I could not resist his idealization I think I am past this now; it lasts a short time that I enjoy it then I just find it sad, even a little creepy now

3 He knows my hopes and dreams I so used to believe this of my ex. The other night at dinner with him I realised he has no idea what my hopes and dreams are. I think he has mirrored so many women since he's actually forgotten mine!

4 He can push my buttons He doesn't any more, though I am still waiting for the s*** to start

5 I love him I really can't say that I love my ex now. I care about him but I don't know if I could use the word love, even as in the love I would feel for a friend

6 It would all end at zero again when he devalues me to a point where I am no longer worthy of his company I'd quite like this to happen. I would feel free

7 I would have to start the grieving process all over again.  Even as only friends.see 6 above; If my only choice is intense friendship or being devalued I'd choose devalued and I've been wondering if I could actually bring it on. He would probably guess what I was doing though!