Bad night

[Beach_Babe]

My ex was my safety net, and I was his. He had aspergers comorbid with BPD (yes, diagnosed) and social oddities. I am not aspergers but am a bit socially awkward myself. I put up with him because... .well I never thought hed actually leave. He was, first and foremost, my friend; someone I did not have to put on a show or pretend for. I truly believed for him I was the same. A kind of weird kinship I guess. Then about a year ago his career finally began taking off. Plum job assignments, won awards. He said for the first time he actually felt like a person. Then devaluation started, and suddenly I was a burden, a bother. Crap under his designer shoe, and promptly left behind. Screw the relationship it wasnt that great anyway, I would have been fine if he found someone else. But to be deemed unworthy of even a friendship? Smeared with lies? Called the police for sending one lousy text message?   He was my best friend for 14 years. Why? I have a PhD I am not a loser. But he treated me like I was some degenerate off the street. I am heartbroken.

[Turkish]

My ex was my safety net, and I was his. He had aspergers comorbid with BPD (yes, diagnosed) and social oddities. I am not aspergers but am a bit socially awkward myself. I put up with him because... .well I never thought hed actually leave.

BB, do you think there's an insight there? I had the same feelings... .

[Theo41]

Beach _Babe, It sounds like he's gotten a big head right now and is moving on. He may come to his senses and come back asking for forgiveness but for now he's shown that he's not worthy of your friendship and affection. And you can't do a thing about it. All you can control/ change is yourself. Move on and see if you can find someone to replace him. You are a good person and very accomplished. Bad things are frequently followed by good ones. Let's hope you meet someone who makes you feel that your ex's departure was the best thing that could have happened. All best to you. Theo

[Beach_Babe]

Sadly, yes. To realize what I attributed to self loathing, was actually projection also floors me. Comments like "oh so you think YOU'RE the only one who sees beauty in this beast?"

He only saw being with me as a favor.


Theo: He befriends a lot of slow people. (No, seriously). At first I thought this was great. Wow, what a good hearted guy! Now I realize why: they are easy to manipulate and use. Also they don't ask questions and look up to him. At the end I was backup even to them.  He told people when he met me I was living in my car and sold drugs. That his generosity got me on my feet, and look how ungrateful I am. He said I was a w**re who had aids. None of which was true. It blew my mind to realize that is how he truly saw me. Charity. I never treated him that way.

[Beach_Babe]

Please someone remind me why I cannot break NC. He does not miss me, does not care and probably never did. He will not be happy to hear from me, just think I am pathetic and weak. Right?  He has moved on to better things now, and does not regret his decision. I am beneath him. Please remind how making contact will only result in rejection and pain because there is no friendship nor feelings of love. I was not special, just a blip on the radar and replaceable. I am pitied, mocked and looked down upon... .if i'm thought of at all. Please someone do remind me the best response I could hope for is indifference. Perhaps a 2 sentence email. There was nothing for him to miss.

This is what I have to keep reminding myself in order to stay away. I suppose that's why i'm depressed. He is gone and never coming back. Please someone remind me, because the lack of closure keeps me stuck.

[FannyB]

Beach_babe

seeing as everything has to be on their terms, contact from you would probably result in indifference at best - hostility at worst. However, if you feel that you've nothing to lose at the moment, then NC is a choice and not a rule that you must adhere to. However, given he called the cops the last time you text him then it's probably best avoided under the circumstances.  You're a better person than he is - don't give him the satisfaction of letting him know he can still get to you. 

[peacefulmind]

Please someone remind me why I cannot break NC. He does not miss me, does not care and probably never did. He will not be happy to hear from me, just think I am pathetic and weak. Right?  He has moved on to better things now, and does not regret his decision. I am beneath him. Please remind how making contact will only result in rejection and pain because there is no friendship nor feelings of love. I was not special, just a blip on the radar and replaceable. I am pitied, mocked and looked down upon... .if i'm thought of at all. Please someone do remind me the best response I could hope for is indifference. Perhaps a 2 sentence email. There was nothing for him to miss.

This is what I have to keep reminding myself in order to stay away. I suppose that's why i'm depressed. He is gone and never coming back. Please someone remind me, because the lack of closure keeps me stuck.

I can relate to how you feel, BB. The lack of closure is what ultimately keeps us stuck reminiscing and ruminating about their whereabouts. Let the actions of him speak for themselves. It has never been about you, and that is why you need to remember the conclusion that this was poison to you, and you're slowly detoxing from the enmeshment you've been a big part of.

Stay strong and remember, again, his actions are clear-cut, words are not. Look at the aftermath and ask yourself "do I really deserve this?", and if you reach the conclusion that you don't, then you have your answer. Don't let him get to you. Your healing is moving forward, I've seen it in your posts, so stay true to yourself and let yourself distance yourself from the manipulations and lies. We're all wonderful people, but we need to assert our boundaries and be who we are, not what we are made up to believe we are.

[Beach_Babe]

Beach_babe

seeing as everything has to be on their terms, contact from you would probably result in indifference at best - hostility at worst.

That's what i'm afraid of. The threat of police was what I got when I called 6 weeks ago and told him I would respect his wishes.  I told him how difficult this was for me and pleaded for 5 minutes just to say my peace.  I wanted to tell him I loved him, would miss him and was so grateful for the memories. Also that I wished him well. Didn't get the chance he said he had to go to bed and hung up 42 seconds later. I guess it truly was that awful for him to talk to me. I was allowed however to say those things via his friend's fb.  I felt at peace, until he called back 20 minutes later to rip me to shreds for saying I called him "fat" ( I said no such thing.) I just had had heart surgery a few weeks before and pleaded with him to stop. He screamed louder and even more profanely. I was left shaking and crying so hard in the fetal position I actually passed out, and paramedics had to be called. When told of this later, he had no reaction.

[Beach_Babe]

Peaceful: thank you for those kind words. People tell me I am being too negative, but isn't having false hope worse?   What has been your experience?

[peacefulmind]

Peaceful: thank you for those kind words. People tell me I am being too negative, but isn't having false hope worse?   What has been your experience?

I don't know if you're being too negative per se. It took me a long time to realise that the hope I was clinging to, was that my ex-BPD would realise the mistake and ask me for forgiveness, show me remorse, and most of all be appreciative of all the sacrifices I've made throughout our relationship. I now realise that this "false" hope is nothing but farfetched and won't happen. The most I can wish for is that he/she at some point wakes up, seek treatment, and can have a good and loving relationship with another person, a person that is not me. I still ruminate and miss my ex-BPD from time to time, but I realised that everything I've went through was also a self-inflicted pain, and that I should really see this in the bigger perspective. My ex never loved me the same way that I loved him/her and that hurts to think of, but I know that I won't get anywhere with letting myself feel this hurt.

If you truly hope to hear back and get closure, then it is not a false hope. It's a hope, but ask yourself whether this hope is worth clinging onto? Last time you talked to your ex, he verbally abused you and demeaned you in a terrible and humiliating way. Do you think this is fair? Isn't it some sick way of getting closure? I never got a reaction from my ex, never heard a word after the BU. For some reason, I wish I had a lash out at me, or at least some sort of reaction. Nothing, just a mutual unspoken agreement to not say a word. It makes it very hard to move on, because I will never know what my purpose was in his/her life, but I do know that I treated him/her with respect, dignity, and unconditional love. Something I never had returned, and that gives me some sort of closure. There's still a way to go though and I am currently seeing a T to discern my own issues (co-dependency) and how I can build up my boundaries and reflect on what kind of person I want to give my love to.

[Beach_Babe]

peaceful: how hard that must be to not have heard anything from your ex. How long has it been?

[Olivia_D]

Beach, I didn't have time to read this entire thread as I am "attempting" to focus on work today.  However, I know the feeling of where you are at with the discard and NC.  The "only" reason why I would ever want to have any form of contact with him is to have closure but that is that would require him to have a measure of emotional maturity.  Had he had this emotional maturity, the cold discard would not have happened.  It is a catch-22.  I have started to view it this way.  When someone has an "intellectual" IQ of 59, we would not give them a calculus math problem and wonder why they cannot do it--they do not have the intellectual capacity to do it, period.  That, for some reason, is more understandable to us because it is more objective and we know that their inability to do that math equation has nothing to do with us but it is their limitation.  Whereas, if someone has a deficit in their "emotional" capacity (EQ) and cannot do something, it is nowhere near as understandable as an IQ deficit as it is not as objective and their prior words or promises or behaviors can mislead us into believing that they have the capacity to do so but sometimes we have to recognize that our original impression of this person was wrong.  This is their EQ limitation and they simply cannot do it, period.  I honestly believe that I have to let go of that desire of him "suddenly" getting it and becoming an emotionally healthy person for the nano-second that it would take to create some form of closure; and, having contact with him to attempt such a thing would only cause me more harm. 

I am posting part of a thread that I wrote in my "crying at the gas station" thread where I am talking about their ability to simply walk away and discard people with cold disregard.  It has been helpful to learn these things as I remain committed to staying far, far away from this hurtful relationship.

Here's the thread

I am in therapy.  I have been with the same therapist for 10 years to deal with the aftermath of full spectrum exNPDH and NPD mother.  (I think I must have a target on my forehead).  My therapist keeps reminding me that it is very normal and expected to go through a grieving process for someone that was meaningful to me, regardless of his mental health. The focus is that it was meaningful to me.  My T keeps reminding me that only people who bond grieve the loss of a relationship.  If the other person is incapable of bonding, they are capable of detaching without a thought and rarely, if ever, will shed a tear or give it a second thought... .  She went on to say that I am grieving him and the "illusion of him" without any closure.  She also had an interesting point when she said that these type of PD people do not participate in closure, they craft exit strategies and that some of his cryptic messages at the end were him giving me a foreshadowing of things to come as-if it were some mystery novel.  Shudder. 

I understand what you were saying about there being no absolutes or definitive answer and the point is well taken.  From what I have learned, the definitive answer is “it depends.”  I am certainly not an expert on any of these issues but I know that my therapist has a lifetime of experience (40 years) in helping people recover from traumatic relationships with PD people. 

So, it is my understanding that "it" depends on a lot of variables.  For instance, “it depends” on whether the PD person has demonstrated certain PD “traits” and are not per se personality disordered.  It is my understanding that Personality disorders exist on a continuum and range from mild PD to more severe (full spectrum) PD.  I suppose this is why the DSM requires a pervasive / ongoing pattern when looking at the diagnostic criteria for each type of personality disorder.

For me, I have been uncertain whether my recent ex is BPD / NPD / or ASPD.  What my therapist is saying is that regardless of the particular PD under Cluster B, “IF the other person is incapable of bonding, they are capable of detaching without a thought and rarely, if ever, will shed a tear or give it a second thought.”  She was not stating that all PD people are incapable of bonding (i.e., some may have traits without a pathological PD, some may be on the low end of the PD continuum, whereas, some may be on the further end of the continuum), she was indicating that “if” the person is incapable of bonding they can walk away easily as you are not a person but a thing / an object / a utility.  In other words, without diagnosing him, she was indicating that the lack of bonding is an indication of a more severe PD (such as a more severe case of BPD, NPD, and/or ASPD).

“IF” they are incapable of bonding, detachment is not a challenge as there was never an attachment to begin with and you served a purpose in the PD person’s life.  They can simply walk away and it causes them no distress.  This lack of empathy, lack of remorse, lack of attachment (bonding), pure discard / devaluation / destruction of you as a person indicates a more severe PD.  Whereas, a milder PD may be capable of bonding to a certain extent but may not be capable of maintaining a healthy / secure attachment to another person.  I guess for some BPD the push-pull is the tension between engulfment and enmeshment and they rotate between those extremes, at least that's my layperson understanding.

My ex seems to be more NPD / ASPD or an extreme BPD.  I am not sure and I am not sure that the label really matters much to me as my process of recovering from this is the same regardless of the origin / label of his issues. 

I also know that there is a lot of research on PD and attachment disorders / styles that are formed in early childhood.  Apparently, there are “secure attachments” and “insecure attachments.” The insecure attachments have 3 categories: (1) ambivalent-anxious attachment (clinging to caregiver), (2) avoidant attachment (rejecting caregiver), and disorganized attachment (alternates between clinging and then rejecting caregiver).  Sometimes—but not always—these early childhood attachment disorders / styles are viewed as a possible foundation for many personality disorders. 

Ambivalent-anxious – apparently want to be close and can be intimate but you tend to give up your needs to please and accommodate your partner.  (This sounds a lot like Co-Dependency.)

Avoidant – avoids true closeness and their independence / needs / wants are more important than intimacy; they can only enjoy closeness to a certain extent and are not comfortable in sharing feelings.  They have minor issues with or no true struggles in saying goodbye, protect their freedom, and delay or avoid commitment.  If they do commit, they engage in distancing behavior by being critical and stating ongoing dissatisfaction about the relationship.  They devalue the relationship and idealize another relationship.  (Sounds like some APD / BPD / and some NPD people).

Disorganized-they are afraid of closeness as see themselves as unworthy of love and support.  They lack empathy and remorse.  They are selfish, controlling, refuse personal responsibility for their actions, and disregard rules.  There is a high risk of alcohol / drug abuse.  They have chaotic relationships.  They do not give love or affection and are highly insensitive to their partner’s needs.  They rage, lack compassion, and are incapable of trusting.  (Sounds like NPD / ASPD).

For me, I think what my therapist was saying is that it doesn’t matter what the “label” or diagnosis is but the behavior of not being able to bond (regardless of the PD) can be an indicator of the severity of the issue that is more likely than not a pathological, deepy-rooted pattern / issue.  Certainly, there are some people with PD traits and some with milder PD people that with solid dedication to therapy can heal those wounds.  However, there are some more extreme PD people that will likely never go into therapy, do not engage in introspection, and have a very low likelihood of success even with treatment. 

The bottom line is that he has to address his issues if he ever does but his issues have nothing to do with me.  In my struggle to unravel my Co-Dependent traits / behaviors, I feel somewhat responsible for the problems of others as-if I can fix them; and, I have a difficult time in determining what are healthy and unhealthy behaviors in a relationship.  Growing up with a NPD mother and having a long-term relationship with an exNPD Husband, who both enjoyed turning me into the scapegoat, has wreaked havoc in my mind.  I am attempting to work on my stuff so I am less susceptible to seeking external approval of who I am as a person.  It is a huge challenge but I know that this is the common denominator in my lifelong pattern of allowing unhealthy people to enter and/or remain in my life. 

For me, the bottom line is whether this person is healthy for me or not.  I do believe that there are some PD people that can recover but I also know that I have too much work to do on myself to be able to discern between those that can and those that can't and it is too easy for me to focus my energy on helping someone rather than working on my own issues.  Until I get a grip on my stuff, I cannot see the forest for the trees.

Hugs, Olivia_D

[peacefulmind]

peaceful: how hard that must be to not have heard anything from your ex. How long has it been?

Over 3 months today. I have maintained NC and I am not going to open up any routes for communication again. That bridge is burned. I am still suffering from nightmares and anxiety (something I have never had in my entire life), and I'm trying to get through the day as well as I can. I have a huge deadline coming up, and my entire future is dependent on it. It's hard to deal with ruminations and heart break at the same time you have to perform on a level higher than I have ever been expected to before. Hopefully I can pull through. My ex-BPD chose the correct time to do this if he/she wanted to hurt me and hurt me bad... .That's for sure.

[Theo41]

Beach _ Babe, you make it clear that N/C is causing you a lot of pain. I would suggest trying A twelve step program: CODA for co-dependents.  There are other programs that could help too. From what you write it appears that you have become dependent on him and feel incomplete without him. The big problem with this is the fact that he's treated you badly and it's hard to tell what you are getting out of the relationship. Coda and its members can shore you up, allow you to think clearly about this and act in your own best interests instead of falling back and experiencing the same painful behavior. You deserve better. Theow