Silent treatment or depressive coping

[arabella]

NMMF - perhaps what you are seeking is the 'boundaries' tool? Validation is great but, as Phoebe said, it's just one tool. Where are your boundaries with this r/s? Right now I see him doing whatever he wants and you bending over backwards to accomodate him. That's just going to lead to frustration and resentment on your part and an unhealthy enabling of his poor choices.

For example, if he says he's going to call at 2am and he doesn't: turn off the phone and go to bed to ensure you have enough sleep. Or tell him that you have a big day, need more sleep, and if he wants to talk to you then he can call before 1am or not at all because that's when you're turning your phone off. For an event like the wedding, you could say, "look, I need an answer with at least 4 days notice -if you don't tell me you're coming by then, I'll go without you". Go without him and don't invite him to the next party/event. You don't need him for you to have a good time!

At this point it really isn't about him - it's about you. Sure, validate. But set some solid boundaries for yourself so that you don't suffer. He's never going to 'get it' so do what you can to prevent yourself from being trampled. At some point you may just say, 'heck with it, this is not the type of person I want to be in a r/s with' - he's not going to change, can you accept him the way he is?

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[nomoremommyfood]

Yikes... .  my last post was really incoherent. Didn't realize how many specialty cocktails I had at the wedding! Sorry about that!

perhaps what you are seeking is the 'boundaries' tool? [url=https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation]Validation[/b][/url] is great but, as Phoebe said, it's just one tool. Where are your boundaries with this r/s? Right now I see him doing whatever he wants and you bending over backwards to accomodate him. That's just going to lead to frustration and resentment on your part and an unhealthy enabling of his poor choices.

This is a really good point. After the last situation (just last week!), I had been trying to figure out ways to instill boundaries regarding the silent treatment. After doing some searching on this board last night, I found other postings where people expressed difficulty validating a partner w.

[nomoremommyfood]

First, what is JADEing?

Yikes... .  my last post was really incoherent. Didn't realize how many specialty cocktails I had at the wedding!  I muddled the back story - in short, he blew off a planned answer at nine, implied he needed directions while I caught him at a party, had me stay up all night waiting for a response while ignoring my texts, then decided to opt out at the very last minute.

I know I probably sound stupid and obsessive in print - particularly about waiting up - but I couldn't turn off my phone without losing my alarm clock for an early morning work event. He was aware I needed to orchestrate transportation the prior night and would be unavailable until right before the wedding. I wish I'd have had the CHANCE to say "you're just not going" but he told me he "wanted to go" from the party he was "dragged to" by his other friend (another thing that upsets me: he's suicidal around me, but the life of the party when I'm not around!). I showed the texts to our mutual friend at the wedding last night to ask if I was out-of-line or obsessive and he seemed stunned at my bf's behavior saying, "Look, [insert name] is my friend too, but this is abuse."

These other friends don't validate. They put him in his place when he gets out of line and tell me to do the same! The painful thing is that - while he rotates his wrath - he has more respect for the people who call him out on his crap! He sees me as a doormat.

What bothers me more than dangling me before the wedding is the stuff he said on Thursday. As my friend said yesterday, "that's the kind of thing you say for no reason other than to hurt someone." It keeps ringing through my mind - calling me ugly, saying my clothing looked like rags, the stuff about how at least five of his female friends he's "in love with" and would take over me in a heartbeat (this will stay with me FOREVER), then making fun of me for offering unwarranted, "lovesick" apologies when we get fight (!).

perhaps what you are seeking is the 'boundaries' tool? [url=https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation]Validation[/b][/url] is great but, as Phoebe said, it's just one tool. Where are your boundaries with this r/s? Right now I see him doing whatever he wants and you bending over backwards to accomodate him. That's just going to lead to frustration and resentment on your part and an unhealthy enabling of his poor choices.

This is a really good point. After the last situation (just last week!), I had been trying to figure out ways to instill boundaries regarding the silent treatment... .  and when he was acting normal, he agreed to let me know via short text when he was quiet because he needed time, even coming up with the suggestion to ask about his mood before hanging out to avoid unnecessary conflict. After doing some searching on this board last night, I found other postings where others had similarly felt they were being disrespectful to themselves by validating when the person w. BPD had said or done something particularly below-the-belt. I read something about a woman whose partner used her childhood sexual abuse as ammunition against her; behavior far too cruel to warrant any sort of empathetic reaction. In a lot of these situations, I want (and try) to take a time-out when I see it escalating - we made an agreement about this - but that seems to enrage him further. And is really difficult in public!

Still, the other day, if I had kept to my word "stop insulting me by the next block or I turn around and go home," he'd never have the chance to have said those things. It should probably be known that - along with BPD - he falls into clinically depressive episodes and has been in one for about a month and a half corresponding with gambling losses and probable bankruptcy. Still, those are things you just don't say and I think there needs to be repercussions, just as there are in real life... .  that EVERYONE else he encounters would enforce!

Can boundaries help after the damage is done? And how do I enforce them to someone who will just squirm out of a conversation with either a suicide threat or a threat to leave the relationship?

I feel like I'm dating Stanley Kowalski (or Tony Soprano).

[nomoremommyfood]

First I accidentally post a half reply in a weird "refresh" button glitch, then I post a freakin' novel.

For those not interested in reading my latest tome, I'll just get to the point:

How do I set limits or boundaries without enraging him? And is it a good time to set boundaries while he's in the midst of a very bad depression?

There's also the risk that - by telling him my limits - I'm just giving him a grab bag of things he knows will upset me. I don't know if it's the same thing, but I've previously told him when certain comments offend me and they become automatic fight fodder. I'm blown away by the things he said and, if and when things are calm, afraid if I communicate that those abusive things won't be tolerated, I'll just arm him with a full arsenal if he ignores the "no verbal abuse" boundary.

I don't know if this is common, but I'm painting him black right now; mulling over cruel barbs I would have slung the other night if I wasn't restraining myself. Do people who've been wounded by verbal abuse have a hard time thinking of their partner in a loving way? I'm sure affections with time but, right now, the thought of his face makes me sick.

[123Phoebe]

Boundaries are something a lot of us struggle with.  Boundaries are for us, they're our limits to what we'll allow into our lives.  They don't have to be declared as much as acted upon.

If someone is saying mean things to me, my boundary is that I will exit the conversation.  I don't have to tell the person ahead of time about that being a boundary of mine.  When they start slinging insults, I might say, 'I don't like being spoken to that way.  I'm going to weed the garden and will be back in an hour or so'.  

We have no control over how someone chooses to talk to us.  We have 100% control over how we respond to it.

Also JADE, is Don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.  Here's a link to a workshop that will explain it better than I can:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

[arabella]

How do I set limits or boundaries without enraging him? And is it a good time to set boundaries while he's in the midst of a very bad depression?

There's also the risk that - by telling him my limits - I'm just giving him a grab bag of things he knows will upset me. I don't know if it's the same thing, but I've previously told him when certain comments offend me and they become automatic fight fodder. I'm blown away by the things he said and, if and when things are calm, afraid if I communicate that those abusive things won't be tolerated, I'll just arm him with a full arsenal if he ignores the "no verbal abuse" boundary.

Boundaries are for your protection, not his benefit. You don't have to tell him what they are in advance, sometimes it is helpful, sometimes not. If you have a boundary like "I will not answer the phone after 10pm" - it might be helpful for him to know in advance. If you have a boundary like "I will not tolerate verbal abuse" - you could tell him just that much but not give details (i.e. avoid 'arming' him), or you could just not say anything and figure that, really, that's just common sense and he'll figure it out next time you walk away from his insults.

He'll always be in the midst of mental illness. There will always be an excuse why now is not a good time to set boundaries. This isn't helpful at all. As you said, he respects those around him who don't tolerate his abuse. (Bearing in mind that romantic r/s usually take the brunt of the abuse from a pwBPD - part of the nature of the illness.) Your boundaries aren't going to make him any more or less depressed.

As for enraging him, you may experience 'extinction bursts' - i.e. a period where his bad behaviour escalates before subsiding. Basically you set a limit/boundary and he'll push with all his might to see if he can get you to remove it. This could include raging, threats of self-harm, threats of leaving you, etc. If that doesn't work he'll learn to accept it. Keep it in mind because it's very easy to give in to an extinction burst!

I don't know if this is common, but I'm painting him black right now; mulling over cruel barbs I would have slung the other night if I wasn't restraining myself. Do people who've been wounded by verbal abuse have a hard time thinking of their partner in a loving way? I'm sure affections with time but, right now, the thought of his face makes me sick.

There are whole threads here dedicated to trying to get over abuse. I think that's one of the hardest parts in all of this. There's a lot of detaching, forgiving, and patience that have to go into a r/s with a pwBPD in order for it to work. Not gonna lie - it ain't easy!

[nomoremommyfood]

If someone is saying mean things to me, my boundary is that I will exit the conversation... .  Here's a link to a workshop that will explain it better than I can:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

Wow... .  just read that entire workshop and feel a LOT better - so many people iterating the exact same circumstances! Everything from not wishing to validate verbal abuse to constant threats to break-up!

I actually implemented time-outs about two years ago. However, I kind of abandoned it when I found it very hard to execute for people who live apart. It's easy enough for me to walk out the door of his apartment but, when we fought at my place, he'd refuse to leave when I asked. Though standing up and saying "I'm going for a walk" prompted him to go, he leaves in a cursing, screaming fit. I live in a little city apartment, so there's really nowhere to go aside from leaving the property.

And what about situations when we're stuck together? Like bus rides from across town?

More important, our last fight started with abuse, moved to a quiet ride home (I thought this would calm him), then ended in an "honest" discussion on the softball bleachers about how he had never loved me. I've gone over the evidence to the contrary in my head but how do I know the difference between BPD-related insecurities/rages and honest attempts to end a relationship? We've been together over six years but I know they can walk away at the drop of a hat!

What if I try all this improvement and he really just wants out?

As for enraging him, you may experience 'extinction bursts' - i.e. a period where his bad behaviour escalates before subsiding.

This is what further worries me, particularly while he's in a depression. I don't think he'll care enough to put up with any limits! I want respect but how do I know I haven't screwed it up too badly at this point?

[arabella]

I've gone over the evidence to the contrary in my head but how do I know the difference between BPD-related insecurities/rages and honest attempts to end a relationship? We've been together over six years but I know they can walk away at the drop of a hat!

What if I try all this improvement and he really just wants out?

You can't really know in any given instant, just take the evidence over time. If he keeps changing his mind it's likely the disorder. If he really wants to end the r/s, he will. If he really wants out there is nothing you can do about that - it would be exactly the same in a r/s with a non.

As for enraging him, you may experience 'extinction bursts' - i.e. a period where his bad behaviour escalates before subsiding.

This is what further worries me, particularly while he's in a depression. I don't think he'll care enough to put up with any limits! I want respect but how do I know I haven't screwed it up too badly at this point?

The thing with extinction bursts is that they're called 'bursts' for a reason - they end. So that isn't going to the the determining factor in what he does. Also, do you even want to be in a r/s where there is no limit on the amount of abuse you suffer? This isn't healthy for you. Take a step back and think about what you really want, and what you need, in order to be happy. You can't just keep compromising yourself for the sake of maintaining a r/s with someone who is making you miserable.

[nomoremommyfood]

Great... . so after ALL that reading and thinking and spending days finally calming down enough to talk AND after I at least sort of thought I had the upper hand a tiny bit (thought he might feel guilty about blowing off the wedding he promised for months to attend), he's BACK TO IGNORING ME!

This seems to be common, actually. A lot of the time, when there's short a short outburst, he's likely to apologize quickly. When he does something graver - like a more hurtful tirade or blowing off an important event - he's more likely to ignore me from a few days to a week later. Of course, by that time, I'm so relieved that the stonewalling has ended, he's automatically forgiven and we end up never addressing the behavior that started the whole thing.

I know I'm supposed to avoid him and make him call, first. I was already told by his friends to make him "own" the guilty feeling of doing hurtful things to people for as long as possible as he'd recently been expressing remorse over attacks on family members. But I really can't stand the uncertain limbo feeling hanging around in the air - I work from home from a freelance job I'm trying to phase out and supposed to be starting a project for a new client as of last Friday. This lingering confusion makes work almost impossible; whether working on boring stuff or stuff that requires enthusiasm. I call out of desperation just to end the painful uncertainty and get back to a semblance of normality!

AND WE'RE NOT EVEN FIGHTING! Our conversation on Saturday - though I was disappointed - ended with calm words and an agreement that we'd stay together in exchange for him getting out of the wedding (there's a doozy!). Plus, exactly one week ago, we made an agreement that he'd send an "I need time" text when ignoring calls. Now, I'm terrified that he listened to a crying voicemail I left days ago when he was causing me to be sleep deprived and thinks of my like dirt. Or, he was serious during our fight when claimed he'd now be using the silent treatment even more just to "abuse me until I left him alone." Writing this makes me feel like some pathetic, lovelorn reject but he's been improving for years and was a different person just one week ago... . before we had sex, of course!

I called on my "secret" work line. Waited an hour, sat calmly, prepping myself for a respectful, validating conversation, and called on my regular line. No answer. Left an innocuous text about a mutual friend saying "hi" and asking how he did at the race track last weekend, wanting to let him know I wasn't calling to fight. I don't know if he's not answering for anyone - as he sometimes does after a gambling loss - but this is going on forever and I just want to go back to our twisted version of normal, only to soothe my own mind! I've got half a mind to just walk over to his place, as he said I "could" do if I was really upset about his silence. Or leave a stack of magazines at his door for him to make collages.

I needed a period of normalcy to feel like the brutal things he said were out of dysregulation, not truth. I've got a serious jealousy trigger and am frantic he's out with the mistresses he claimed he's be picking up... . I'm losing my mind!