I am sick of him putting other women first (again... )

[connect]

Hi guys,

Am feeling pants... . My b/f has just informed me that he is very busy this weekend. On Friday he is swimming with his son and his friends wife - He is seeing me Friday night (with his son - we normally spend the whole of these "son" weekends together) and Saturday he is is busy with his mum. On sunday he is going to the zoo as the only "honourary" man in the mums group. I am not invited.

I queried this as he is invited by me and my friends to a similar thing next weekend. He told me he is busy next weekend at a wedding (I know the guy getting married through him) and he doesn't want me to come as his ex girlfriend (a different one from the usual one I have issues with) will be there.

What the heck

I am seeing him tomorrow but don't know how I will feel. I am p'ed off.

Its a bit of a rant really -just wanted to vent. I said to him today "you don't treat me like your girlfriend"

I need to tell him that this is not how men treat their girlfriends. The exclusion is getting to me.

Sorry for the rant - I don't know how to approach this subject (yet again) esp as I am so angry. He has made all these plans without a thought of me and we always spend 3 day weekends together - its when other women are involved that I am excluded.

Thanks

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[bruceli]

This is the same behavior BPDw had when we were dating and actually the same behavior she exhibits now.  I am at the bottom of her priority list when it comes to entertainment as well as priorities... . HowI long for a clingy PD... .

[123Phoebe]

Hi Connect,

I'm so sorry you're experiencing this... .  It does not feel good.

The saying ":)on't make someone a priority if they only consider you an option", comes to mind.

Make your own plans!  Is there something you've been wanting to do?  Now would be a good time to get out there and do some fun and exciting things, or laid back if you prefer... .  Something though, that really has nothing to do with him.

You are your own person

[bruceli]

Hi Connect,

I'm so sorry you're experiencing this... .  It does not feel good.

The saying ":)on't make someone a priority if they only consider you an option", comes to mind.

Make your own plans!  Is there something you've been wanting to do?  Now would be a good time to get out there and do some fun and exciting things, or laid back if you prefer... .  Something though, that really has nothing to do with him.

You are your own person

Love the saying and tried that once... . didn't work so well... . ended up with a night of raging because she couldn't handle that I went out on the same night she did... . A classic example of I can do it to you but don't you dare do it to me... .

[Clearmind]

Connect, its Ok for partners to have separate social engagements and interests. I understand if it becomes "excessive" - however you may want to define that.

Are you able to go ahead and do some things you would like to do? See friends etc?

[bruceli]

Connect, its Ok for partners to have separate social engagements and interests. I understand if it becomes "excessive" - however you may want to define that.

Are you able to go ahead and do some things you would like to do? See friends etc?

Yes... . defining excessive and too much is difficult when one has difficulty with compromise, equality and fairness... .

[Clearmind]

Its not about the other person bruceli its about you (us) setting boundaries and limits within the relationship. You cannot change another.

Change does not happen without change - we must change.

[MaybeSo]

All too familiar.  Sigh.

I know you have read some of my old posts... . there were about 3 years of similar posts to what you deal with now.

I said to him today "you don't treat me like your girlfriend"

Okay.

I need to tell him that this is not how men treat their girlfriends.

It may not be what other men do, but it's what he does.  You could consider dating other men who don't do this.  

The exclusion is getting to me.

What do you want to do?  If it involves changing him, please don't hold your breath unless you look especially lovely in shades of blue. I am not wanting to be flip, I'm really serious as a heart attack here.  What do YOU want to do for YOU about the fact that your bf does this?  He is NOT other men. He is who he is.  

Sorry for the rant - I don't know how to approach this subject (yet again) esp as I am so angry. He has made all these plans without a thought of me and we always spend 3 day weekends together - its when other women are involved that I am excluded.

Understood. This is what he does.  Your past complaints and marathon discussions seem to have actually increased the behavior, not decreased it.  This was what resulted in my complaints and attempts at 're-educate' my ex at one time.  It doesn't work. It makes you look controlling and shrill and it makes you also feel yucky and sick. He cannot be your project, there has to be some acceptance of who he is and then some decisions about how you want to take care of yourself in or out. Talking to him about it ad nauseum (complaining, re-educating, convincing, being angry, trying to control it)... . none of it works; it usually makes it worse or can cause dysregulation and exhaustion in both of you.  

I was NOT fun to be with when I was doing these things.  This makes getting away from "angry disapproving woman" in exchange for  spending more time with happy, carefree women, even  more appealing.  

You could try to use DEARMAN in a discussion about what it is you want, but from the history you have shared, he seems pretty dedicated to this behavior.

Your best bet is to turn your focus entirely on you and what you would like to do that is fun while he is off doing xyz with others. Get involved with things you want to do... . pay no mind at all to him. That is your very best bet if your intention is to stay in this thing.  The more you make this an issue, the more he is going to 'show you' how you can't control him. And, he's right.  

[connect]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all your quick replies. Great stuff there. I know I should be doing my own thing while he is doing his - I know this. I do have other things I could be doing and have planned something for Sunday already. I think my co-dep makes it really hard for me to enjoy other things knowing what he is doing. I also feel that he is "getting one over on me" by his behaviour around excluding me when female friends are involved. I feel he is hiding things and that's why I am not welcome because of what I will see. I also don't know how to act around him after/prior to these events as they make me so angry and so so upset. I feel I am compromising myself and fighting a battle between my love for him and my love for myself.

Maybeso - how did your r/s end? Did you leave him? Did he do something unforgivable? My b/f keeps on just the right side of unforgivable but they all add up. What scares me is that the only boundary I am 100% certain of is that I will leave if he is physical with someone else. There is a lot of pain between here and there though.

Also Maybeso - I know that the more I try to control it (co-dep) the more he wants to flee me to the fun happy women he hangs with. I know this but I am failing to action this. How did you get there? Is it when the pain of being in the r/s is worse than the pain of being out of it? I am STILL struggling to accept this is how he is and I am possibly making it worse. I suppose I am tired of looking at myself when I see the problem is with him and his relationships. I know I need to focus on me and I am feeling like a record on loop on the boards - but I don't know how to adjust to accepting the reality x

I have put so much money in his slot machine relying on the promises he made and later retracted (due to my so called unreasonable behaviour) I left my home for him. I am waiting for the payout as promised. This sucks.

[connect]

I am looking up DEARMAN now - I have used the other tools very well in terms of raging etc but have not used this one yet... .

[connect]

I have iooked up dearman. Can anyone give me an example of a rough script of how I would use it in this scenario? Am having trouble translating it to this specific event.

I have two issues here:

* How do I make the leap to truly accepting this is how he is and

* How to use DEARMAN to communicate over this


Thanks!

[arabella]

Aww, connect... .    (that's a lucky set of 5!)

DEARMAN is more for when you have time for a calm conversation, not so much for dealing with a phone call gone down the toilet. It can be good for getting your pwBPD to consider doing something you'd like. I'm not great with it, I think mainly because I'd have to plan it ahead of time in order to remember all the steps! That and, err, a lot of the time it's more a matter that what I really want is for my H to stop being a jerk (ah, DEARMAN doesn't really cover that)!

I'll give you this to consider: my H suddenly started having more time for me when I had less time for him. The more plans I had, the more 'oh, well, I'm not sure... . I'll have to get back to you, I might be busy' lines he got, the more I said 'oh, sorry, tomorrow I have other plans' - the more he seemed to want to get together. Coincidence? Who knows. Still, at least I wasn't the one sitting around feeling like I got ditched.

Here's an example from today. We were walking and I saw a poster for a local event coming up later in the summer. I said I thought it looked interesting. He sort of mumbled. I said I'd maybe like to go and would he like to as well? He sort of sighed and mumbled out a "maybe". So I said, "look, you know if it isn't something you're interested it, that's no problem. Just let me know so that I can invite someone else to go with." Response? "Oh no. No, it sounds very interesting. Maybe get more details and let me know. I'd like to go with you. It could be a fun date." Oh REALLY? Geesh.

So go do some fun things this weekend so that when he asks what you did you'll have something to say. And plan something fun for next weekend too. He's going to a wedding without you? Oh, well, I guess that means you're suddenly free - and without his supervision - to do whatever you like. I don't mean for you to do anything immoral or to bait him or anything like that, but I DO mean that you should make him think twice about how much you really need him around. In fact, you should think twice about how much you really need him in order to have a good time (HINT: not at all! You can rock your socks off all on your awesome own!)

[arabella]

* How do I make the leap to truly accepting this is how he is

Good question. No good answer. I'm working on making that leap myself. Definitely a struggle!

But, wait! I found a thread with an article on ":)etachment, Step by Step" - maybe something in there will strike a helpful chord?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=135116.0

[musicfan42]

arabella, I completely agree.

I've used DEARMAN successfully but it's more helpful for a specific request as opposed to just a general pattern of someone not giving you enough attention. I've actually used DEARMAN when dealing with aggressive people so it's not only for calm conversations however I think that if you use it with your boyfriend, it might backfire and he might think that you're just "nagging" him really. I've gotten the hang of DEARMAN now so I can actually remember all the steps... . I kinda would need to plan what I was going to say in my head but I don't think I stick to a script so much as I just try to get a general gist of what I want to say ahead of time. I just feel like sticking with a script makes the words sound phony or something... . I have to sort of just put it into my own words and feel self-assured enough to know that I can handle it.

I actually think that you may need to look at the FAST acronym in this situation. FAST is another DBT skills used used for maintaining self-respect but in this situation, I think you should use it to assess his behaviour, not yours. Basically, it's:

Fair- are his actions fair to me?

Apologies-no apologies (I'm going to turn this on it's head and say that in this situation, it might be good to ask yourself whether he's sorry for any wrongdoing... . whether he apologises/tries to make amends

Sticks to values-does he treat me with respect? is he honest and open with me? does he take my feelings into consideration?

Truth-does he tell me the truth?

I think that you are treating him fairly as it stands so that's why I wouldn't use FAST to evaluate your behaviour. Basically, FAST can be used by nons to evaluate their BPD's behaviour (it's not the original intended use but I figured this out myself through trial and error. I realised that if I felt that someone was potentially manipulating me or mistreating me, then I could apply the FAST acronym to it... . almost like a litmus test or something!)

[MaybeSo]

Re: radical acceptance. Here's what helped me. I realized that reality marched on whether I accepted it or not. Time and time again my ex showed me who he was. I stayed in denial a long time. Wanted to not accept reality. But reality marched right along anyhow. Eventually I stopped fighting reality. Reality didn't care whether I accepted it or not; being in denial only impacted ME... . it made no impact on reality. When I stopped fighting what is... . my suffering diminished... . I wasn't fooling myself anymore. There was a period of grief, but that had a beginning, middle and end. Whereas being in denial was like a slow torture. "oh my god, is he doing THAT again?  The panicked question is denial talking. I now follow up any panicked question like that with "yes, OF COURSE he doing THIS again, THIS is what he does!

The final break in my R/S was just another version of the same stuff. He decided almost

overnight he didn't want to be with me anymore and he bullied me out of the home we

shared; I left my home to live with him, be together, coparented his kids with him, and was

working but making less than I ever had in my life with the tanked economy and in the middle of a masters program. We had had our most stable 2 years... . and he just flipped a

switch and that was that. We are now in limited contact.

Do not wait for pay offs, or Hang around waiting for return on investment. Take care of

yourself always... . don't wait for him... . do it yourself... . it is not wise to put all your eggs in a

basket carried by a wildly unstable,

highly changeable person.

You have some insight into codependence but speak in a way that kind of conveys an oh

well, my cd stuff is responsible for my reactions... .

I cannot stress how self sabatoging and counterproductive cd is especially when you are in

this kind of situation. CD is never healthy, it is about self abandonment and lack of self care

in favor of fantasy. You cannot afford to ignore or trivialize cd when you are in this kind of a

spot. Your reactions belong to you.  This kind of a R/s in my opinion, is a big wake up call

In dealing with your cd. I see it as the universe giving Gentle nudges about my unhealthy

cd for years and I just kept ignoring the nudges.  Finally the universe quit gently knocking

and pulled out the big guns... . my ex. My cd nearly did me in... . I stopped ignoring and

trivializing and making excuses about my stuff.  It was a big wake up call. This needs your

undivided attention... . not who the female of the week is for your bf.

This is about you!

[sm15000]

First, Connect I'm sorry you are going through this - I recognise it, and it's the most awful situation  

I don't know how to approach this subject (yet again) esp as I am so angry.

Then, for the moment, you really should try not to. . .you will get NOWHERE. . .this has to be the turning point when as others have said, you let reality in.  I found it really hard at this point to just 'plan other things' - I made myself do it because I realised that it is important to not put all your life in the hands of somebody who will not change just 'for you'.  

Your past complaints and marathon discussions seem to have actually increased the behavior, not decreased it.  This was what resulted in my complaints and attempts at 're-educate' my ex at one time.  It doesn't work

No, it doesn't!  I had the re-educate attitude a bit myself.   My ex (when in a certain mode) saw it as patronising, and hence I think it just fuelled him.   Although, I remember him once saying quite arrogantly as a result of me going out when he didn't turn up as arranged "what you doing trying to teach me a lesson" so if you do start to 'change' yourself be aware of possible reactions from him

I was NOT fun to be with when I was doing these things.  This makes getting away from "angry disapproving woman" in exchange for  spending more time with happy, carefree women, even  more appealing.  

Yup  

What scares me is that the only boundary I am 100% certain of is that I will leave if he is physical with someone else

This is the biggie isn't it. . .and why I ended my r/s.  As well as seemingly preferring other people's and women's company, I'm certain my ex had been (and still was) sleeping with other women although he denied, denied, denied which got us into continual circular conversations.  This is why I too got more and more uncomfortable when 'things' came up and he cancelled stuff or didn't turn up when we were supposed to be meeting.  It's very hard to then do your own thing at ease.  But, you must - you must prepare yourself, put a life in place, really think about YOU and what YOU want.  The key is don't hold any expectations that he will provide your wants for you.  In that way, to a certain extent, you have to learn to let him go.

I remember reading like mad including about co-dependency - also known as co-narcissism.  It struck home to me - what right did I have to expect a, b or c.  Was I really going to keep on and on that I didn't like or wouldn't accept someone's behaviour but just sit and wait for him to change.  I'm not saying what he is doing isn't selfish or inconsiderate. . .but again, it's the reality of it.

Because of the history of my r/s mixed in with my denial 'who' he was and 'what he was really like' came as a HUGE shock to me, it tore me apart - you are more aware - please let the reality in - radically accept  

You want to stay, I did too - I couldn't in the end but the only way you have a chance is to change yourself.

Good Luck  

[123Phoebe]

I've been down this road too and yuck yuck blah   It just felt so crappy.  I became obsessed with changing him.  Trying to word things in just the right way for him to 'see' my worth.  None of it worked until I believed in my own worth, in or out of the relationship.

Everyone's path is different and I made so many mistakes, even when I thought I had a good handle on it, because I was still focused on him, changing him.  The romanticized version of what our relationship could be was always running in the back of my mind or in the forefront and sometimes still does!  When that happens, I recognize it as codependency creeping back in because I know that if I plow down that road... .  it will trigger his fears of engulfment; he is untreated, so to believe that he has changed that much is magical thinking.  I've tested it

What works is to stay centered and focused on myself.  Treat myself the way I'd like others to treat me.

If I'm imagining a fun-filled weekend with him and he decides to do something with other people (excluding me from the plans), I don't sit around feeling sorry for myself, or mad at him.  I'll go out and make my own fun and I mean really truly make my own fun!  Fill up time with interesting things that, sure(!) it would be neat if he wanted to be with me... . BUT, he isn't and how much fun would he really have at a day at the spa anyway  Or seeing that movie and lunch at the new restaurant with my girlfriends?  Poking around the boutique etc... .  

This sort of thing was a first for me, as I was brought up to put other's needs ahead of my own, feeling super selfish and guilt-ridden when I didn't.  Craziness.  That's all FOO stuff making a bunch of noise in the background of my life.

When we're willing and able to put our needs, wants and desires on the front burner it comes shining through in a multitude of ways.  They're no longer the focus = a lot of pressure to put on somebody else.  We're respecting ourselves and it's attractive. 

If it's done in a gamey tit-for-tat kind of way, it won't work.  It really has to be genuine.  PwBPD are quite sensitive and can see manipulation a mile away and then it's game on!

Forget about the games.  Live your life.  Give it a try.  You matter!

[connect]

Hi all,

Its the morning after the night before... . Thanks for the great posts - thanks for taking the time to write about this stuff.

Maybeso I also agree with you that I am using "codep" as an excuse for my reactions - I am not really living it (been slacking on my meetings) and not facing it well enough - thanks for the reminder. What you said about radical acceptance freeing you from tortuous feelings makes sense. I want to get there - I really do - its VITAL in fact. I need to get to radical acceptance before my boundary of "anything physical with someone else" kicks in. This boundary is where I suspect that I will finally "GET" radical acceptance - when it is too late. I need to be there before that, before my boundary. I am curious at how that grief process looked when you got to radical acceptance? How did you "grieve" for the r/s you thought you had whilst you were still IN the r/s? Did it make you avoid him? Act differently? Also did the acceptance come gradually over a period of time or was it a lightbulb moment?

SM15000 I agree that I shouldnt talk about this with him right now. I think that I will not talk about it right now. I wont detract from his actions by clouding them with my opinions - at least I will TRY not to do this! Will prepare myself for getting out of the situation tonight if he wants to delve into why all this is my fault.

I missed an invite from him on Wednesday as my phone delayed the text by 3 hours. And I was 2 hours late answering a goodnight text for the same reason. This could be when he decided to make all these plans this weekend without me. Our r/s has been improving in communication overall recently as I have been managing the rages and not taking things personally - he has been looking at himself and his behaviours and talking about them. So to get this right - he fears I am too close, pushes me away, he needs to push my buttons harder as my responses have changed, he fears engulfment, he fears my absence, he gaslights, on and on and on. Also  I know that when I don't make him the centre of my universe I am punished for that (that may be what happened here anyway on some level) my unintentional delayed texts and me going along with his recent space requests have riled him. He needs to show me. I am scared that when I start looking after my needs more than I am (arranging other things irrespective of him) then this will make him worse and I will get more punishment. I know the point is I shouldn't care about him getting worse as its not my business but it WILL affect me. Oh this is confusing. I have a male fashion photographer friend who wants to photograph me, not in a dirty way I may add!  ( god knows I have EVERY right to do this - I have resisted til now as I doubt my b/f would  like it) If I did this my b/f could see this as a good reason/justification for HIS behaviour and likely even UP his behaviour. My head is spinning. Him upping his behaviour will affect me even more. But I know this is not about HIM its about ME.

I have an accurate transcript of the telephone conversation last night - am thinking of posting it on this thread - I don't know if that helps with any insight or not. It certainly is a good illustration of BPD in action though if anyone is interested!

Phoebe you are right that if there is even a HINT of gameplaying about me arranging my own stuff it will be bad too.  

Don't know where I am going with this post - just meandering along with my own thoughts here... . I feel that I should have accepted that this is how he is by now. I have the BPD knowledge and I have seen enough behaviour, I have had opinions from friends, I have had therapy, I have been to co-dep meets, I have read the books, posted and read on the boards. I need it to sink in. You are all very patient on here, telling me the same things that I know are spot on but I NEED to believe it in my heart and get to that place where its real for me.

Is this what people struggle with the most? The acceptance -  do you think?

[MaybeSo]

Hi Connect... . you asked about grief.

I was with my ex (with multiple short dramatic breaks and lots of roller coaster up and down) for 5 years.

The grieving started the first year, but his codependence AND mine repeatedly brought us back together into Codep LA LA land until the final break when he bullied me out of our home.

At that point I just cried for about 3 months. Almost daily, but I wasn't incapacitated, I got up and went to work every day. I ran in the vineyards most days. I spent weekends with great girlfriends doing things I like to do. I had no contact with my ex for 9 months or

more. For me, it was like detox. The prolonged distance from La La Land was grounding and

necessary. By the way, the crying started the first year we were together... . it ended when I

let go. Also... . I wasn't just grieving him, I was grieving the loss of my father, and years of

accumulated little girl fantasy detritous that was no longer serving me well.

The relationship I have with him now looks nothing like the fantasy romance I clung to for 5

years. But it's a thousand times more authentic and healthy than what it use to be. I don't spend 1 minute guaging my life or my choices based on what I think his reaction might be.

(other than basic politeness, etc)

There was a time when you didn't even know your ex. What did you love about your life before him?

[allibaba]

Love the saying and tried that once... . didn't work so well... . ended up with a night of raging because she couldn't handle that I went out on the same night she did... . A classic example of I can do it to you but don't you dare do it to me... .

Sometimes raging (extinction bursts) are a sign that you are actually doing the right thing!  

I'm pretty sure that is true in this case  

[clairejen]

Hi Bruceli wrote

This is the same behavior BPDw had when we were dating and actually the same behavior she exhibits now.  I am at the bottom of her priority list when it comes to entertainment as well as priorities... . HowI long for a clingy PD... .

====I am curious---what factors led yu to marry, with all of this going on while you were still dating? What helped you lead you to marriage?

----RE: a clingy PD, any ideas why your BPDwife is not cliny? I know many pwBPD are, but I am unclear as to why some are not?

Thanks

Claire

[musicfan42]

There are some borderlines with narcissistic traits so perhaps that might explain why some borderlines aren't clingy? it'd be interesting to hear other peoples' opinions on this though... .

[bruceli]

Hi Bruceli wrote

This is the same behavior BPDw had when we were dating and actually the same behavior she exhibits now.  I am at the bottom of her priority list when it comes to entertainment as well as priorities... . HowI long for a clingy PD... .

====I am curious---what factors led yu to marry, with all of this going on while you were still dating? What helped you lead you to marriage?

----RE: a clingy PD, any ideas why your BPDwife is not cliny? I know many pwBPD are, but I am unclear as to why some are not?

Thanks

Claire

Because when it's good it's very very good... . Fear of intimacy and getting hurt again... .

[bruceli]

There are some borderlines with narcissistic traits so perhaps that might explain why some borderlines aren't clingy? it'd be interesting to hear other peoples' opinions on this though... .

I would agree... . also see above post... .

[Billa]

Your past complaints and marathon discussions seem to have actually increased the behavior, not decreased it.  This was what resulted in my complaints and attempts at 're-educate' my ex at one time.  It doesn't work. It makes you look controlling and shrill and it makes you also feel yucky and sick.

Talking to him about it ad nauseum (complaining, re-educating, convincing, being angry, trying to control it)... . none of it works; it usually makes it worse or can cause dysregulation and exhaustion in both of you.  

I was NOT fun to be with when I was doing these things.  This makes getting away from "angry disapproving woman" in exchange for  spending more time with happy, carefree women, even  more appealing.  

that was my experience too, as you know, Connect.