Why do they get so enraged when they are forgiven

[cal644]

Tonight I had a text conversation with my stbex wife - who is now dating the guy that was just her "friend" that ruined our marriage.  I said you know what "I forgive you - I don't know the reasoning but I trust God has a plan" . She went into a complete rage - I told her I'm fine that your dating him, it doesn't bother me - like I said I've forgiven you, you need to follow your heart and you did what you felt was best for your life.  Again complete rage - Don't text me, I'm going to call my attorney, etc.  You know it doesn't bother me - I didn't say this but go ahead and call your attorney and say we need a restraining order because my husband is forgiving me - . You know I realize she is sick but I truly do forgive her - do I agree with her decisions (hell no) but who am I to judge - I know she is living in hell and that the forgiveness even makes it worse - but I want her to know what true, deep love is.  But I can tell you one thing - she can see what true love but never as my wife again!

[seeking balance]

I dunno Cal, sounds like she was mad cause you called her, not because you forgave her.

Then again, I don't know the whole story and can only go on what you wrote below.

What is going on with you?  It effected you or you wouldn't post - what emotion do you feel?

Did you really just call her to tell her you forgive her?

[cal644]

we didn't talk on the phone only by text.  She had a big screw up the other day and accidentally sent a text to my daughter meant for her boyfriend - she then lied her way out of it.  finally she admitted to my daughter she has dated this guy once (which she had been lying about and once is still a lie).  She got caught - but I'm to the point I don't care - so I told her I forgave her - which I truly do - she is sick and maybe I don't forgive her actions as an adult - but I can forgive that little child in her that went through hell on earth.

[seeking balance]

So, in her eyes - out of nowhere, a text from you "forgiving" her appeared?

I feel like we are missing part of the story here

[schwing]

My understanding of BPD, is that people with BPD (pwBPD) exhibit "splitting" behavior, or "black and white" thinking.  That is, for them, people are either "all good" or else they are "all bad" with no grey space or in between space.

In the beginning of a BPD relationship, during the "honeymoon" stage, they often see us as "all good" or idealize us, and we're the person who rescues them from all the bad people they've been with before, or their awful family.  But as our relationships develop, and their disordered feelings develop, they also start to devalue us.  And when they devalue us, we're "evil" or "abusive" and we can do nothing to redeem ourselves.  These black and white perspectives can flip on a dime, and can rapidly alternate also.

It's a distorted way of seeing other people, and it's a product of their disorder.

Now this splitting behavior, applies to their self-perception also.  They *need* to see themselves as "all good" which is why very often they refuse to be accountable to their mistakes.  Because to make a mistake, would mean you are flawed, would mean you are "all bad."  And they can't be all bad (or else they would really hate themselves -- and this can happen), so we must be all bad, and they are all good.

For you to "forgive her" would imply that she did something that was necessary to forgive.  She can't accept that.  Moreover, she's probably devaluing you right now because from her distorted perspective you left her.  Or you always planned on leaving her, and she only beat you to the punch because she "knew" you were going to leave her.  She *has* to be the victim.  Because the only other alternative is she is the abuser.

Unfortunately, when you are always the victim, you never learn from you experiences.  You never consider you own culpability, and you never realize that there are qualities about yourself, that if you changed, you might be happier.

[recoil]

Schwing,

That post was so accurate and informative, I'm calling it, "the money shot". 



Recoil

[flatspin]

Schwing's post is a gem.

Wouldn't it be also somehow because she left cal644 for another in order to punish him or make him suffer and discovering later on that he doesn't hurt so much as she thought he would, it put her in a rage ?

[Bananas]

Now this splitting behavior, applies to their self-perception also.  They *need* to see themselves as "all good" which is why very often they refuse to be accountable to their mistakes.  Because to make a mistake, would mean you are flawed, would mean you are "all bad."  And they can't be all bad (or else they would really hate themselves -- and this can happen), so we must be all bad, and they are all good.

For you to "forgive her" would imply that she did something that was necessary to forgive.  She can't accept that.  

Right on.

My relationship ended when a third party told me my exBPD/NPDbf was moving in with another woman.  I had no clue.  Ex had nothing to say. 

When I attempted to communicate to him about wanting to know the truth about how it all came about so I could forgive him and forgive myself, his response was:

"there is nothing for anyone to forgive." 

[eniale]

Well, my two cents worth is that she likes to have power over you, and by your saying "I forgive you" in her mind, that puts you in control, and it enraged her.  Good for you that you have detached from her and she can no longer hurt you.  That is the goal for all of us.  My ex is no doubt spending this week at a resort where we had already reserved our vacation for this year.  I thought it would bother me when the time came, but it doesn't.  First month was hell, second month very painful, third month less so, and now, well into fourth month, I think of him less & less.  It's gone from constantly in my thoughts to just a few times a day, and it  lessens day by day.  But it took a lot of tough mental/emotional work!

[danley]

I felt compelled to comment on this subject as I've been going thru this for a few weeks now with my ex. He broke up with me a few months ago. I went thru the normal plethora of emotions that a break up usually entails. But with this break up it was magnified ten times over. It was the most draining experience ever, and still is. After the ex broke up with me, HE acted as tho I was the one who called the relationship quits. He was angry, cold, bitter, Moody, and plain ole jerkish. This is what tired me out the most as I tried to be cordial since we work together. Its like he's punishing ME for HIM dumping me. Very strange!

Anyway... . I've told him that I have forgiven him and slowly I'm healing from the hurt. I've told him several times that I wish happiness and healing for him. He'd get angry from me saying that and start flying off the handle about me being in denial. Then the next day he'd say something to the effect of "If you were my friend you'd say you were happy for me!".

What the heck? Didn't I just TELL him that several times?

A few weeks later he's still doing the NICE to me routine followed an hour later of either avoidance, tantrums, fight picking, or acting like my presence repulses him. He tells me he started talking to someone he might be interested in. I tell him that's good and if that's what makes him happy than I'm happy for him. He goes into a rage and accuses me of being in denial and wants him back and thats the only reason I'm being cordial at work. He's accused me of this several times. It's so bizarre!


He hardly ever apologizes for his words or actions or behaviour. And the next time I see him at work he acts as tho nothing ever happened and he's all calm. If I say I forgive him he gets angry. I think he gets this way because it implies that he did something wrong and it's almost like he'd rather just pretend his rage fest never happened instead of hearing me say he's forgiven. Me forgiving means acknowledgment that he did something to hurt/offend me. And heaven forbid HE ever admit that. This probably stems from him not wanting to accept the reality and responsibilty of his words/actions/past.

He also gets upset whenever I tell him I wish happiness for him probably because it's NOT the response he was hoping from me. Maybe he wants me to be jealous or bitter? Idk.

Also he gets irritated whenever something good is going on in my life. He acts like a child who sees his best friend with the toy HE wanted. He sits in the corner with his hands crossed and doesn't want to talk. And even IF his best friend offers to let him share the toy, he's too obsessed with anger, hate, pride and jealousy to even see the nice gesture being offered.

Rage caused by forgiveness? Its like a double edged sword.

[grad]

It's plain and simple, clear as day.

She expected you to rage, probably some self-fulfilling prophecy on her behalf, but because you didn't give her the reaction she expected, she became enraged.  They can't understand why people don't react the way they would in a situation... . it's difficult for them to relate.  Although pwBPD have a strong desire to love and be loved, when faced the with truth of real, unconditional love coupled with an untreated disorder that is full of doubts about self-worth, lack of identity, etc, it's too much to handle.

This is why so many times pwBPD find themselves in a relationship, progress through the stages of higher levels of commitment (engagement, marriage, kids, etc), then decide to sabotage it because they were never settled with themselves and don't know what they truly want... . until they decide to solve their own riddle: therapy!

Think of it this way:  BPD is a self-deprecating disorder, that untreated, can only sustain a relationship long term less than 5% of the time.  However, you can be 100% certain that you will be tested in every way imaginable.

[Murbay]

I think grad is perhaps right about this, it's because you have gone against the expected reaction and in an effort to justify things in their mind they try to trigger you.

My exBPDw would do something very similar if I apologised for something and took ownership of something I had done wrong. It is manipulation at it's finest to justify the disordered thinking going on in their minds at the time.

Two examples that spring to mind. We had just passed through airport security and she was trying to put the stroller up while I collected the bags. She was annoyed because I didn't drop everything immediately to help her, but she never asked for help either (though once I had the bags I did offer to help). The first I knew about it being an issue was actually on the plane when she tried to start a random argument on the plane in public view. The way she did it was to actually start an argument about the fact I had brought my headphones and she hadn't. Rather than be drawn into an argument, I handed her the headphones and got out a book and that's when she triggered and that it was always about what I wanted to do and never about her?

The second time was in my own country and in my own town. We went to the store and on the way out, I turned left out of the car park though we had approached from the other direction. I should know my way around because I have lived there my entire life and she had only been there 3 days and it was her first visit to my country. Anyway, she was insistent that I had gone the wrong way? I didn't argue but explained that it was ok, I knew exactly where I was going and that it was actually a quicker way back. She was enraged that I had been right that she actually started an argument again in public when we got back. The basis for her argument was that I had been speeding to prove a point but when others told her it wasn't possible because there were cameras everywhere, she lost it.

It was one of the only times I said to her that if this is what our marriage was going to be for the rest of our lives I wasn't sure I could put up with it and after that she calmed down but I didn't associate her with having BPD at that time. As grad says, you are tested 100% and she wanted to push to see if she could find that trigger that got me to snap back so she could justify her own disordered thinking. I lost count after that of how many times it was brought up that I had considered leaving her because I had said so when she was in my country.

Things like this were a daily or weekly occurrence and my T was shocked that I had allowed myself to put up with it for 3 years. The airplane story, she actually brought up in therapy hoping the T would explain how my behaviour was inappropriate but when he asked her to explain just how I was in the wrong, she decided he wasn't qualified enough to help and stopped seeing him shortly after.

So as grad says, it wasn't the forgiveness that she got enraged about, it was the fact that you didn't follow the script in her own mind and give her the reaction she wanted from you.

[MammaMia]

I would have to agree with those of you who believe pwBPD rage after a breakup when told they are forgiven, because they do not believe they have done anything wrong.  They left and they feel superior about it. 

We must remember IT IS ALL ABOUT THEM and the feelings of others do not matter.

I doubt they are able to fathom that someone they left could ever say that it is ok that they did so, and they are forgiven. I am not certain most pwBPD  understand how anyone could possibly go on without them and survive. After all, the world revolves around them, and they purposefully leave destruction and hurt in their wake.

Their interpretation of this statement from an ex would probably be something like:  "well, I never loved or needed you anyway... . you are insignificant, and I am fine without you.  I am glad you left and you did not hurt me".

Result:  rage and indignation at being rejected.

[grad]

I think grad is perhaps right about this, it's because you have gone against the expected reaction and in an effort to justify things in their mind they try to trigger you.

i don't believe it's purpose is to justify things in their mind.  pwBPD are reactionary, impulsive... . things happen so fast they don't realize it so not much of what they do can be considered calculated.  think of it this way, they most likely grew up around parents who were physically, emotionally, or sexually abusive.  anger was very commonplace during their childhood so that's the environment they're comfortable with, it's what they relate to someone who "cares" or "loves".  calmness isn't part of who they are, they need conviction, strong emotions on display!  now to relate it to the incident above, here's what's happening in her mind.  she's moved on to start seeing someone new, accidentally (probably calculated) sends a message to cal644's daughter meant for her new boyfriend.  she's expecting cal644 to be hurt, angry, etc just as she would in this situation.  nope, he forgives her, she can't believe the lack of an emotional response (anger, rage), and that triggers her emotional outburst.

Two examples that spring to mind. We had just passed through airport security and she was trying to put the stroller up while I collected the bags. She was annoyed because I didn't drop everything immediately to help her, but she never asked for help either (though once I had the bags I did offer to help). The first I knew about it being an issue was actually on the plane when she tried to start a random argument on the plane in public view. The way she did it was to actually start an argument about the fact I had brought my headphones and she hadn't. Rather than be drawn into an argument, I handed her the headphones and got out a book and that's when she triggered and that it was always about what I wanted to do and never about her?

This was a series of incidents where she felt isolated by you.  You're sitting next to her and you want to "tune" her out with that crap?  Oh no!  not happening.  So you give them to her and take out a book?  Oops, more insult to injury.  Same isolation, just a different method (book vs headphones).  The issue with the bags was not the real issue, but rather the start of a series of actions of which all made her feel "alone"

It was one of the only times I said to her that if this is what our marriage was going to be for the rest of our lives I wasn't sure I could put up with it and after that she calmed down but I didn't associate her with having BPD at that time

unfortunately you added even more fuel to the fire with a statement like this.  perhaps it should have been worded better but an ultimatum like this will become a dagger they store in their warchest for a later date.   i'm pretty sure she brought this back up during a subsequent rage didn't she? yes it's ok to set boundaries, but you need to be very careful about how you word it.

So as grad says, it wasn't the forgiveness that she got enraged about, it was the fact that you didn't follow the script in her own mind and give her the reaction she wanted from you.

yes, for the emotionally dysregulated BPD, they sometimes equate calmness to not caring.  this was her trigger, the script he didn't follow.  my guess is his wife is not happy and still uncertain about what to do. she's trying to invoke that emotional reaction out of him to see that he still cares.

[cal644]

So much of this has helped explain why they say some things to us that leaves us scratching our heads.  Towards the end of our marriage when I found out about my wife's emotional affair, she would at times beg me to hit her or make a comment like I know you came upstairs last night to kill me when I was sleeping and how she was scared to death of me. In 19 years of marriage I never yelled, cursed, or raised a hand to her.  I keep thinking why would she think I would ever do that.  Now I know.

[Validation78]

Hey All!

There are a few of things that have helped me in my healing. One is to understand as much as I can about BPD. Another is to keep to a minimum, the questions about why they do this or that. We are trying to apply logic where there isn't any!

Most important of all though, for me, has been the rule, in our very limited contact, has been NEVER to discuss the relationship, feelings or emotions with him. He didn't get it throughout the marriage, and he isn't going to get it now. When I feel the need, and I do a lot, to discuss these matters, I go to a friend or T. It's all business with him, and now that the divorce is final, so is the business and need for any contact!

Best Wishes,

Val78

[grad]

So much of this has helped explain why they say some things to us that leaves us scratching our heads.  Towards the end of our marriage when I found out about my wife's emotional affair, she would at times beg me to hit her or make a comment like I know you came upstairs last night to kill me when I was sleeping and how she was scared to death of me. In 19 years of marriage I never yelled, cursed, or raised a hand to her.  I keep thinking why would she think I would ever do that.  Now I know.

to never invoke an emotional response of anger, yelling, cursing, or violence in 19 years of marriage?  wow that's noble.  unfortunately for the BPD, she felt you either didn't care or were bottling up that resentment for one huge outburst.  you had probably proven over the course of the marriage that you were devoted, but she never saw the negative behavior on display she needed to SHOW that you cared.  to them, everyone has a breaking point and since she couldn't trigger or find yours, she was dumbfounded.

[danley]

There are a few of things that have helped me in my healing. One is to understand as much as I can about BPD. Another is to keep to a minimum, the questions about why they do this or that. We are trying to apply logic where there isn't any!

Sounds about right.

[LosingIt2]

Is writing an apology letter and admitting your own mistakes and having it totally ignored and never responded to an example of being enraged? Acting like I don't exist was always her preferred method of torture, I believe.

[danley]

I believe ignoring is a silent rage... . if that even makes sense.

My ex does this too. And when I used to ask him if he received my email, he would say he needs time to absorb everything. Or he would respond and tell me that he got my email and was letting me know just because he hadn't responded yet didn't mean he didn't care. He said he didn't want me to think that but that he just needed time to respond with a clear mind.

Well, little did I realize his mind would never truly be clear.

And honestly I don't know if he needed time to absorb everything. But rather he was just killing time hoping that I'd just forget about it.

[bb12]

She *has* to be the victim.  Because the only other alternative is she is the abuser.

Unfortunately, when you are always the victim, you never learn from you experiences.  You never consider you own culpability, and you never realize that there are qualities about yourself, that if you changed, you might be happier.

Fantastic writing Schwing 

[SurvivedLove]

I believe ignoring is a silent rage... . if that even makes sense.

My ex does this too. And when I used to ask him if he received my email, he would say he needs time to absorb everything. Or he would respond and tell me that he got my email and was letting me know just because he hadn't responded yet didn't mean he didn't care. He said he didn't want me to think that but that he just needed time to respond with a clear mind.

Well, little did I realize his mind would never truly be clear.

And honestly I don't know if he needed time to absorb everything. But rather he was just killing time hoping that I'd just forget about it.

Oh my goodness!

Those words, word for word, are what my ex said to ME after I broke down and went along with initiating contact after 2½ months of NC (from my side, that is).

WORD FOR WORD!

Took him 2 days to "find a clear mind" so we could talk things through - and the dance began again, to a different rythm this time, but his dancesteps hadn't changed a bit!

[Tordesillas]

I believe ignoring is a silent rage... . if that even makes sense.

My ex does this too. And when I used to ask him if he received my email, he would say he needs time to absorb everything. Or he would respond and tell me that he got my email and was letting me know just because he hadn't responded yet didn't mean he didn't care. He said he didn't want me to think that but that he just needed time to respond with a clear mind.

Well, little did I realize his mind would never truly be clear.

And honestly I don't know if he needed time to absorb everything. But rather he was just killing time hoping that I'd just forget about it.

My ex would do this in the middle of conversations.  You could tell her mind was just grinding to a halt when presented with something emotionally difficult.  Sometimes it would result in complete silence and I'd be left just trying to get SOMETHING out of her.   Neither of us understood completely why this would happen.  She would also say that she felt like she needed to process what I was saying and what she was feeling.  It was only after researching that I realized this was the BPD.  I don't know if I would call it a silent rage, but more just their lack of mental/emotional bandwidth to be able to process difficult emotions properly.   If the silence persisted in a malicious or cruel way then I'd probably call it a silent rage.

[danley]

True. I believe they have difficulty processing emotions properly. I'm fact, during several serious talks my ex has said to me that everything I was saying was confusing and he felt it was too much information for him. Honestly I believe he was being sincere but it would aggravate him. Mind you it wasn't rocket science type conversation but for him the emotional aspect was intimidating. I also believe he doesn't think before he speaks keep acts and when we discuss it later he only then realizes the impact. But he doesn't apologize or admit fault. He usually hopes I don't bring it up or when I do, he gets upset at ME.

I could tell when he was TRYING to hear me out but to him my words were coming at him warp speed and he couldn't process. This would either leave him angry or he would go silent. It was obvious when he was just waiting for his turn to speak too and wasn't really hearing a word I was saying. He would pick and choose which words he wanted to hear and usually twist them. Sometimes even an apology he would take and twist around. I think it's because his mind may already have a script he's intending to follow but when I say something he's not prepared for he can't handle it. So on with his preplanned script even tho it may have nothing to do with the subject on hand. There was No room for seeing things from my POV although I tried to see his.

When you forgiven someone it's healing for yourself and it relieves you of bitterness and resentment. When someone forgives me, it also feels like a weights been lifted and I truly do realize how I may have been wrong in the others eyes. But with my ex to offer forgiveness... . , I think forgiveness is a sign of weakness and admission. It may have to do with ego, pride, and stubbornness too. But he sure does appreciate it when I ask him to forgive me. It makes him feel good and appreciated and validated. So sad he couldn't consistently do the same.

[snappafcw]

Whenever I had a serious talk with my ex or I if I tried to get my point of view across she would go dead silent. Especially if she was guilty of doing the wrong thing or owed a reasonable explanation. It would frustrate me so much I would always ask "why aren't you saying anything" and I would always get back "I don't know" or "I can't handle it"

Just nice to hear I wasn't alone

[MammaMia]

Personally, I believe silence is golden, and pwBPD hear more than they allow us to believe.  Emotional overload really does leave them speechless. 

How many of you have had a pwBPD bring up a conversation from weeks past like it was the current topic of conversation?  Just out of the blue.  Mine then gets angry if I have trouble recalling exactly what we were talking about.  He often says, he remembers every word and has been carefully thinking about the pros and cons.  Things like this actually keep him up at night.

The barrage of information, questions, and choices are overwhelming for pwBPD.  We need to discuss one topic at a time slowly, clearly and calmly.  Jumping from subject to subject or presenting multiple options just causes confusion.

Silence is not always a bad thing.

[danley]

How many of you have had a pwBPD bring up a conversation from weeks past like it was the current topic of conversation?  Just out of the blue.  Mine then gets angry if I have trouble recalling exactly what we were talking about.  He often says, he remembers every word and has been carefully thinking about the pros and cons.  Things like this actually keep him up at night.

The barrage of information, questions, and choices are overwhelming for pwBPD.  We need to discuss one topic at a time slowly, clearly and calmly.  Jumping from subject to subject or presenting multiple options just causes confusion.

Silence is not always a bad thing.

Yes. My ex would being things up from weeks prior and out of the blue too. Obviously it was bothering him but weeks prior when it was being discussed he wouldn't even respond. It shows he needs extra time to process things and Sometimes it would cause resentment in him because he didnt seem to like to clear the air. But it really sucked because in my mind it was over and done with because if he had a concerned with the subject matter I'd think he'd bring it up THEN not weeks later. Shoot, even a few days later I can see as feasible. But imagine you two are having good conversation and suddenly BPD triggers and they start harping on an old issue. My ex also wouldn't respond to comments made by me when talking but weeks later he'd use the same comments facetiously against me. I'd be thrown back because when the comments originated he would be silent. Id be like "huh?".

I agree that they need to spoken to slowly and piece by piece with a full play by play. And tone and facial expression should be in check because any little thing might set them off when having serious talks.I felt like I was talking to a five year old sometimes. Frustrating.

[j4c]

In my experience, i couldve told my exBPDgf, "you're amazing, beautiful, talented, intellegent, kind, generous... . but sometimes you can be just a wee bit oversensitive". This wouldve been met with rage no question. The slightest ounce of critisism was always impossible for her to handle, with all the compliments being forgotten about instantly. (black n white thinking). You cannot win with people that behave like that - hense why shes your ex buddy!

[Octoberfest]

Interesting... .

Thinking about it, my experience matches many of yours as far as conversations/arguements with my BPDex.

I would start out on a totally legitimate subject and I could almost see the gears turning in her head to derail the conversation or come up with some wild tangent to throw the focus away from a real, valid point.  As it happened more and more I could see it from a mile away and it kind of made me smile.