An argument with me that doesn't include me

[coasterhusband]

<vent on>

Tonight was an interesting debate/argument. After several rounds of therapy, and lots of conversation with the uBPDwife, I've come to realize that my "man reaction" of problem solving is getting in the way of my wife feeling heard. Pretty common thing, of course. I've been working hard to not fight back or defend myself, no matter how outlandish the "facts" are she's dishing out when she's telling me her feelings. She feels a certain way, and I'm working to do nothing more than support and empathize.

Of course, there are times when she's genuinely asking me (apparently) to help her solve problems. Once I've sufficiently empathized. But here's where the BPD kicks into overdrive... . On one hand, she has asked me to focus on the listening and empathizing and she'll tell me straight out when the time to problem solve is. Great, so I've been doing exactly that and not trying to solution.

(Solutioning is pretty darn pointless anyway, since I say "Solution A?" and she replies "No, that won't work". No matter what I present, no matter how I present it, not matter what the context or topic. I'm not sure I've ever offered her an idea she' has taken or even has said "well, that's not a workable idea, but I see what you're getting at and that makes me think of this other idea"

So tonight she comes to me with a concern about our daughter (her step daughter) and I listen to how it makes her feel. I reiterate what's she saying so she's clear I'm listening. When she gives me the vague signal she's ready to switch gears to solutioning (since she can't ever just state her mind clearly), I gingerly tread into that water. Before I know it, she's upset that I don't understand her and am not listening.

She had made a bold, all encompassing statement about my daughter's biological mom always talking poorly about her when D is with BM. I ask simply, and with great amounts of contextualization, about what she was referring to so I can better understand how to address towards solutions. This set her off, because apparently I'm supposed to come up with a solution on how to fix the situation that is (apparently) driven mostly by the BM bad behavior based on nothing more than the one sentence statement that "BM talks smack about me all the time".

The conversation goes out where I try to explain that I'm not looking to disagree with her, but that without data about the problem, I can't possible hope to know how to create a solution.

We end up taking a long break to cool down at some point, and after we come back, we start talking about how our relationship is off track generally and that's affecting everything else. You see, she has shared that she needs 15 mins a day of direct 1:1 time to connect with each other as a couple. Fair enough, and I've been working on this. But her schedule is really tough and sporadic with constant changes, early and late hours, coupled with a 4 day a week custody schedule. Oh and she's been ill the last few months, which is zapping her energy and sending her to bed early.

I've been working hard to find ways to spend time together given this, but when I ask about going to lunch sometimes, she snaps my head off about how she can't know what her schedule is. When I've asked to get together in the middle of the day for 15 or 30 minutes just to talk (like she wants), she's jumped all over me that I don't understand how much work there is for her to do at the house. When I try to plan a few minutes in the hot tub at night to talk, she ends up not wanting to because she's too tired.

Anddddd... . of course it's my fault that I stop doing things that cause negative, snapping reactions. It's utterly forgotten that I've made the effort and SHE declined.

And towards the end of the discussion/debate/argument tonight, on fairly levelheaded terms, I say, "I really need to sit down with you soon and talk about your schedule and how the best way to approach you about getting time on it is and understanding how I can support you within the realities that you're living in."

She tells me 30 seconds later that when I talk about how my schedule is tough and I have to figure out how to change my schedule, it doesn't make her feel prioritized.

Then it dawned on me... . I'm not really a participant in these arguments, just like I'm not really a participant in this relationship. I tell her extremely clearly that I need to get help understanding how to work with HER scheduling realities and she comes back saying that I'm talking about MY schedule. She's not arguing with me, I just happened to be there making word-like noises and giving a face to her own internal mental struggles.

There's never time for my issues to be talked about in our relationship, since we have to first make sure she's "understood and heard" (which is a never ending quest that has a constantly moving goal line). And in an argument/discussion, she's already filed out both sides of the debate in her head. I'm just the puppet there to provide her the belief that she's got a companion to work with. Oh, and of course, I'm the jerk because I "don't understand"... .

Hey, at least I know now. Sorry for the rant, but feels better to get it out.

</vent off>

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[united for now]

Sadly, you are right.

Due to her own internal pain and limited coping mechanisms, she will rarely be there for you. She won't be able to listen to your problems as you wish. She won't be able to contribute in a positive, healthy fashion to meet your needs. She will be selfish and self centered with many impulsive thoughtless actions to cause pain to both of you.

That is the nature of being mentally ill.

Now that you intellectually "know" this, the next step is to accept this on an emotional level and to lower/change your expectations of her to fit the reality. We call this - Radical Acceptance (finding inner peace)  and it is one of the areas that many of our members struggle with.

[coasterhusband]

@united for now - thanks for the support. It's surprising how much "yes, this sucks, but you're not alone and it's not you being crazy" really helps.

It's infuriating, to be sure, to be in a relationship where you have to all but write off the hope that you can talk openly without repercussions, or share your concerns in a two-way dialogue, or even to hope that somehow your life/relationship is something more than a caretaking of a sick person. Even caretakers have a known, understandable syndrome that addresses the impact that taking care of a sick person has on the healthy one (Caretaker's Syndrome).

The only way we ever "succeed" in our relationship is when I just sit back and accept her version of the facts, forget any hope of having those "facts" be even reasonable close to what I experienced, and choose to utterly block and set aside my own emotions/thoughts/feelings/frustrations/angers because not doing so is simply being "defensive". To say "the words you just said were a verbatim quote are not, in fact, a verbatim quote" is to be "resistant". To do anything other than say "yes dear, you're right, I'm a horrible person" is to "not understand".

Here's my favorite part of this situation of late: As we talked today about how I'm not properly delivering on the 15 minutes of 1:1 time, I was trying to ask some clarifying questions. After all, she yells at me when (for instance) I ask her to go to lunch because I'm not respecting her schedule or the things she needs to do in the course of a day. So then when I stop asking her to go to lunch, I'm a jerk. Or when she asks me to go to lunch and I drop what I'm doing to go, it doesn't count. Or how she's told me flat out that date night outings don't count. To fail at delivering one of these 15 min sessions each and every single day means that she generally, overall doesn't feel loved or supported because either I get it right (every day) or wrong (anything less than every day). So I tried to ask some questions to help me understand how to deliver on this (apparently all so crucial) need in a way that addresses things she's specifically and repeatedly called out as problems in the process.

Her response this morning? She's just feeling like I'm resisting because I'm over complicating it.

Over complicating it. She spends cumulative hours and hours telling me over a long period how I suck at this stuff. She gets angry when I do it wrong. And she tells me that she often just doesn't even register when I do stuff that any normal wife would give her husband at least some amount of credit for trying. Then when I try to ask specifics about how to then get past this stuff, I'm the jerk because she tells me that I'm over complicating it. It's easy, she says. Just spend 15 mins a day with me, is that so hard?

Yes, dear wife, yes it is. You have a specific definition of what and how this 15 mins is measured, you have a crazy and always changing schedule, and you have health concerns that are causing more time needed resting and sleeping. Yes, it IS that complicated... . and I haven't even gotten to my realities (because we know that's not an option I'll ever be able to hope for).

She says jump and I'm supposed to say "I'm already in the air, I apologize that I didn't already know this is what you wanted and that when you say 'jump' you really mean crawl. Sorry my actions and attitude have further damaged our troubled relationship that you've worked so hard alone to save."

Oh the joy of marriage to a BPD.

Sorry to vent, but I don't know where else to go to have my feelings represented... .

[united for now]

Well, this is the place for answers and support.

Venting? eh - it's not part of what we want members to focus on... .

Research studies have shown that "venting" to others actually increases your hostile feelings towards the target of your vent. It does not discharge it like many feel. Speaking about your frustrations too much only keeps you focused on how unfair or mistreated you feel and how bad the other person is. It does not seek solutions. It does not seek to understand. It does not increase empathy or engender acceptance. Venting just to vent creates negative bonds between members that keep them trapped in dysfunctional cycles, going round and round and round. There is no searching for ways to get off the cycle, just a sort of trauma bonding. It leaves members feeling like victims... .

The positive way is to search for answers to what is going on. To find healthy ways to change what is in your control - your own reactions and thoughts. That is what staying is for. To find ways to stop making things worse and begin to make them better... . and yeah, I know how difficult and painful loving someone w/BPD can be.



Back to your troubles... .

You are trying to please someone who can't be pleased by sacrificing yourself. That doesn't work, though many of us have tried. Her demands keep changing because the problem isn't "you" it's "her own" internal pain.

When you try to meet her needs, what happens?

As you said, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

What about "your" needs in all of this?

Where are "your" wants? Your desires? Your interests?

You say you are tired and feeling burned out - OK. Then what are you willing to change?

Cause nothing changes without changes... .


I would begin by reading these workshops and reflecting on whether these descriptions fit you... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111772.msg1098422#msg1098422

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=142013.msg1383723#msg1383723