Re: My biggest fear :) Continued from Staying Board

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Back story here

Hi all,

The point for me is to put this in his court.  When he's threatened he turns NPD.  Its pretty much hell.  I'll continue to be sweet, sweet, sweet... . with a strong, strong backbone.  The things that I cannot put up with are as follows:

1.  Calling me names, calling me stupid.

2.  Tearing me to shreds verbally in front of our son.

3.  Threatening physical harm to me, our son, or the dogs.

4.  :)emanding that I do what he tells me to do - right on the stop (example, fire the housekeeper, cancel the fence)

5.  Blocking me from entering into our house.

(not necessarily in that order)  If he showed ANY desire to limit these behaviors, I feel like there would be a case for us to stay together... . but he does nothing... . I can't continue like this.

I have made it very clear to him that he is making the choice to end our marriage.  He said that he will go to a therapist for the express purpose of letting him know why our problems are all my fault.  I told him that that is not good enough.  If he does to deal with his anxiety and depression and aggression... . cool... . it would give us a place to start working from.  

Momtara... . I have documentation of text messaging back to 2011 showing his craziness.  If I absolutely had to... . I could contact his NPD ex-wife and she'd fly to the rescue.  I would never do that... . but I could.  I have verbal recording of him telling me what a loser and a piece of s I am... . spitting with hatred.  Everyone knows (I am not quiet)... . our church... . our friends... . my family... . his family.  Everyone says that he has burned his last bridge.  His dad's wife basically told me that I better leave him or they will disown me. He's so arrogant he doesn't limited his behavior in front of family any more. Yeah I have a lot of support.  I have spoke to the police many times.  They have spoken to my mom.  They know what is going on in this house.  I have told him that I don't want to trigger him... . and they agreed that was sensible.  

I live in Canada.  They are a bunch of hippies up here () and his behavior doesn't cut it.  The police said I could throw his out of the house in a heartbeat... . they even drive by occasionally to just check on things.  I am a very very blessed woman.  I have an incredible network of support even though I am a foreigner in a foreign land.

I know that I hold all the cards.  I don't want to remind him of that because he turns dangerous.  

Its only a matter of time before I can't get into my home again... . or my stuff ends up at the end of the driveway and at that point I'll call the police and do what I need to do to get him out.

[allibaba]

Back story here

Hi all,

The point for me is to put this in his court.  When he's threatened he turns NPD.  Its pretty much hell.  I'll continue to be sweet, sweet, sweet... . with a strong, strong backbone.  The things that I cannot put up with are as follows:

1.  Calling me names, calling me stupid.

2.  Tearing me to shreds verbally in front of our son.

3.  Threatening physical harm to me, our son, or the dogs.

4.  :)emanding that I do what he tells me to do - right on the stop (example, fire the housekeeper, cancel the fence)

5.  Blocking me from entering into our house.

(not necessarily in that order)  If he showed ANY desire to limit these behaviors, I feel like there would be a case for us to stay together... . but he does nothing... . I can't continue like this.

I have made it very clear to him that he is making the choice to end our marriage.  He said that he will go to a therapist for the express purpose of letting him know why our problems are all my fault.  I told him that that is not good enough.  If he does to deal with his anxiety and depression and aggression... . cool... . it would give us a place to start working from.  

Momtara... . I have documentation of text messaging back to 2011 showing his craziness.  If I absolutely had to... . I could contact his NPD ex-wife and she'd fly to the rescue.  I would never do that... . but I could.  I have verbal recording of him telling me what a loser and a piece of s I am... . spitting with hatred.  Everyone knows (I am not quiet)... . our church... . our friends... . my family... . his family.  Everyone says that he has burned his last bridge.  His dad's wife basically told me that I better leave him or they will disown me. He's so arrogant he doesn't limited his behavior in front of family any more. Yeah I have a lot of support.  I have spoke to the police many times.  They have spoken to my mom.  They know what is going on in this house.  I have told him that I don't want to trigger him... . and they agreed that was sensible.  

I live in Canada.  They are a bunch of hippies up here () and his behavior doesn't cut it.  The police said I could throw his out of the house in a heartbeat... . they even drive by occasionally to just check on things.  I am a very very blessed woman.  I have an incredible network of support even though I am a foreigner in a foreign land.

I know that I hold all the cards.  I don't want to remind him of that because he turns dangerous.  

Its only a matter of time before I can't get into my home again... . or my stuff ends up at the end of the driveway and at that point I'll call the police and do what I need to do to get him out.

[allibaba]

He told me this morning that he wants no custody of our son (said it would be too painful for him) and threatened to kill himself if we split.  I told him that it would be a true shame if he wasn't in his son's life (either because he ran away or because he ended his life).  I take these threats very very seriously.

[waverider]

What he says or promises will probably hold no weight in the near future when reality hits home.

Whatever you decide needs to be done on solid facts about what really has transpired rather than theoretical changes. The nonsense from this point on will escalate as reality hits home.

You have drawn so many lines in the sand that anything short of a real separation will ultimately underline them. Whether that becomes permanent or just a prolonged break only time will tell. But a reality break is needed as his means of soothing is still by projecting onto you. That avenue needs to be removed.

[4now]

Hi there,

So sorry to see things take such a bad turn.  I was really rooting for you!  

That is hard stuff to hear that he wants no custody of your son.  My h threatened to disappear, as he put, and be out of everyone's lives.  That was really hard because I didn't know what he meant.  I thought he would leave the country or kill himself.  Either was very hard for me to think about, of course.

Turns out, in that particular episode, as he was packing his stuff, I said that he didn't have to do this, he didn't have to follow this all the way through.  He could put a stop to it.  

He interpreted that and said something to the effect of, jeez you must really love me! Which I said, yes of course I love you, but I found it all so odd, like the ultimate test.

I guess my point is that I have been there, too.  It's painful stuff to hear, but I think you're smart enough to realize it's all a rouse.  He wouldn't just walk away like that, I doubt.  

If the suicide threat becomes more real, it sounds like you have reinforcements in the police who could take over.  

Wishing you the best---

[arabella]

 

What's your new immediate plan going forward? Are you asking him to leave the house? Have you found some breathing room? Have you begun to implement any of your previous plan (i.e. re the medications or therapy)?

Hoping to hear an update - we're all here for you, allibaba!

[Grey Kitty]

I was really rooting for both you and your H, Alibaba.

I'm not going to say that you should give up on him; you know how you feel about that.

But I don't see him improving rapidly right now. I don't believe you need to wait for "one more provocation" before you get him out of the house. And I don't trust that the next "thing" will be as mild as just blocking your access to the house or putting your stuff outside. He has been escalating things on you for a while now--what makes you think he will stop escalating now?

 GK

[allibaba]

Good morning.

My daycare lady quit on me by text message late Saturday afternoon (about the same time as I was jumping out of a moving car)... . so I had to focus on finding my son a new daycare yesterday!  I had seen it coming because her 24 yr old son is in kidney failure but was surprised when she didn't give me any notice!  New daycare found (it helped that I had already been looking)  and now I can continue on my road... .

Late yesterday my husband asked me to schedule an appointment with the therapist for this week.  He said that if I wait too long, he knows himself and he will back out.  This is the FIRST TIME in our 10 year relationship that he's ever ASKED for me to schedule him an appt... . of course this is also the first time EVER that I have told him that I will leave him if things don't change.  I told him that if he doesn't mean to truly look at himself then don't bother.

He told me that "All I ever do is run away from him when he's trying to communicate with me."  I clearly replied "only when I am threatened."  He immediately said "I never threatened you in the car." (when I told him to pull over because he was screaming at me) I replied quickly and clearly that "Calling me a stupid f b and a stupid f c with our son sitting in the backseat clearly falls under the umbrella of threatening behavior."  I protect my son against this.  I will not tolerate this behavior.  I actually (unbelievably) saw a light bulb go on in his eyes.  I told him that in no uncertain terms will I sit around idly while our family is destroyed by the two of us."  (him because of his behavior and me because I do nothing).  I'm not normally this opinionated.  Normally he accuses me of being "more mellow than a damn hippy." So this change does mean something to him.

I am going to wait to kick him out of the house until he does one of two things (blocks my access or puts my stuff on the side of the road).  One of these things WILL happen eventually.  I have warned him that these behaviors won't fly.  This is definitely the best course of action for our family... . it limits the drama (probably sounds counter-intuitive)... . but I am an intellectually and emotionally intelligent person so you have to just trust me.

Also, I mentioned on the staying post that my husband has been violent in the past with me and the dogs.  I should mention that I did put a stop to that behavior (called the police on him in late 2011).  He now knows that is a boundary that cannot be crossed without losing everything.  I can see the look in his eyes well before he loses it... . and I am not silly enough to stick around.

[allibaba]

 

What's your new immediate plan going forward? Are you asking him to leave the house? Have you found some breathing room? Have you begun to implement any of your previous plan (i.e. re the medications or therapy)?

Hoping to hear an update - we're all here for you, allibaba!

Ha... . I was sweet as pie to him yesterday.  Made sure he was aware of all plans involving the house... . invited him to visit the new daycare in the late afternoon.  Told him that I was cooking dinner and it would be on the table at 6pm. 

Yes, previous plan is well in place.  Like I said, he's asked for an appt with a therapist.  His GP is well aware of the situation (been talking to her for a few months) and she is happy to attempt to get him medicated

Even though I am on the Undecided Board... . I have never been more committed to getting this relationship back on track (I just realize that I cannot do it without him making some effort... . and I will not continue to stupidly wait for change).

[123Phoebe]

Late yesterday my husband asked me to schedule an appointment with the therapist for this week.  He said that if I wait too long, he knows himself and he will back out.  This is the FIRST TIME in our 10 year relationship that he's ever ASKED for me to schedule him an appt... . of course this is also the first time EVER that I have told him that I will leave him if things don't change.  I told him that if he doesn't mean to truly look at himself then don't bother.

Allibaba

I don't want to be a total downer as it's obvious you love your family and want to keep it together.  My wish and hope is that everything works out for you.  Wishing and hoping are far from reality.  Reality is that he just dumped you on the side of the road and sped off with your son in the car over granola bars.  Placed a generator in front of the door so you couldn't get inside the house etc... .  This just happened.  :)o the police know about this incident?  

It's a start that your H is willing to talk about seeing a therapist.  I'm wondering why you have to do the scheduling though?  If he's truly wanting to change his ways, wouldn't it make sense for him to do the legwork?  Would a remorseful man make this happen?  If you wait too long, he'll back out?  

It sounds like once again, it all falls on you.  His recovery is dependent on you doing such and such, when his recovery needs to be all about him truly wanting to be healthy... .  realizing that he isn't!

Even though I am on the Undecided Board... . I have never been more committed to getting this relationship back on track (I just realize that I cannot do it without him making some effort... . and I will not continue to stupidly wait for change).

I'm not quite sure what your driving force is committing to get this relationship back on track.  Being sweet as pie to him, involving him of all house plans, visiting new daycare and cooking dinner etc... .  Is it a case of if you're perfect enough, he won't find reason to be abusive?  His abusive behavior has NOTHING to do with you, your son, the dogs etc... .  It's all on him, every bit of it and only he can make the changes, because he wants to.

In another breath it's mentioned that it only a matter of time before he snaps in some way... .

Protecting ourselves and our family is taking the necessary steps and precautions that snap-crap doesn't happen again.  He's already proven he's capable of some pretty heinous stuff.  And it sounds like you're kind of waiting for it to happen again.  

If it were only you and your H living under the same roof, I might say okay... . give it a little time.  He's willing to see a therapist blah blah... .

You have a son and dogs that he's already been violent towards.  I mean... .  It's trigger city.  And if anything happens to any of them, you will be held responsible!  Because you are fully aware of what he's capable of and haven't yet removed yourselves from his potential violence.  In a sense, just waiting for him to become violent again

I know I'm not saying anything you don't already know.  I'm just really concerned.  

[123Phoebe]

Another thing I'm wondering about... .

Did you have a phone on you when H left you on the side of the road, speeding off with your son in tow, 20 minutes from home?  You accepted a ride from strangers, rather than calling a friend or family or the police.  Why is that?

Is that acting responsibly toward yourself and loved ones?  What if these guys weren't on the up and up?  What if something happened to you?  Your son and dogs wouldn't have the one person in their life who really truly can make a difference... .

[momtara]

I didn't know he had been violent before.  As I said, I know what it's like to want to do everything to keep things together.  But the therapist may just be a small concession if things end up going back to the way they were.  it takes a while sometimes to find the right therapist, one who won't scare him off but will still be firm and insightful and tell you both what to do and tell him what to do better and what he has to stop doing.  It takes a while for them to learn a whole story.  You might also schedule an individual session with that therapis so that she/he knows some of your backstory too - marriage therapists can meet with both parties separately as part of therapy.

I agree with the posters above.  you are used to downplaying his actions.  It is completely out of the realm of normal for him to kick you out.  You should be treated like the great mom and great person you are, not the opposite.  He should be the one getting out. 

I know he has an illness.  But you and your son and dogs would thrive without you having to tiptoe around.

I am glad you started making a list.  Just make sure that if you do threaten to leave him if he engages in certain behavior, you have emergency plans so that he can't hurt anyone or anything of yours.  If he slips and does something bad and knows you will leave, maybe he will then do some worse things.  You need a plan. 

When my hubby is being nice, I usually forget all the bad stuff.  Keep reading your jornal and remembering all that he has done.  Maybe you can put some stuff in a safe deposit box.

Please keep evidence and start taping.  He could lie and say YOU did all the things that he is doing.  In a custody battle, you don't want that. 

[allibaba]

Momtara,

The therapist is awesome.  I picked him.  I have been to him a half a dozen times.  He's a specialist and he's a professor at the local university.  He's non-threatening but my husband will respect him.

My husband won't kick me out of the house.  I can assure you of that.  If he tries, the police will be at our door.  I have several large and angry members of his family that have stated that they will fly in from out of country to help if I need them.

I have excellent emergency plans and I am not protecting him anymore.  He's in a good mood today, but I still feel the same way... . for so many years its been his way, or the highway.  Now its MY WAY or the HIGHWAY.  I have a very solid and realistic understanding of where we are at right now.

I think that it was 123Phoebe who asked why I was being sweet as pie.  I am being that way because that is my personality.  That is the right way to act.  Being nasty is doing a disservice to me.  I don't really care what effect it has on him at this point.  He's got me backed into a corner.  I told him in no uncertain terms yesterday that our life will not continue this way.  If it takes a year to get him out of the house and get divorced then so be it.  Its time to cut the cord.

And when I got left on the side of the road, I called all of my local friends first.  None were around and my family doesn't live here.  Hitchhiking is pretty normal where I live (its the middle of nowhere).  The only violent crimes in this area are domestic violence... .  I know that there is still a risk but I am reasonably savvy.  My husband and I both give rides to people pretty regularly.  I also have 20+ years of martial arts so I'm pretty sure I could take care of myself if I needed to.  I look pretty sweet but I am not  physically that is... . I like being a kind person.   I'd also like to point out that I told him to stop the car and let me out.  This was part of my plan (I posted this plan months ago).  I don't want to be trapped in a car with him acting that way.  I've done it too many times.  I'm taking my life back           With or without him.

I need to reiterate... . I am not waiting for my husband to hurt me... . or waiting for some big explosion to leave him... . I am taking action now.  I am taking action in a way that I believe will best serve my family.

[GreenMango]

How familiar are you with a comprehensive treatment plan for BPD?  And therapeutic separations?

I ask because dbt has a family component too.  It seems to me you are in a unique position to do this and require it.

I think most of us get that its a balance here.  One of the concerns I'm having reading is that the little moves by your husband will be enough to hit the reset button instead of letting him deal with the consequences.

Choice (allowing him to choose the path based on consequences and not getting doing it for him) vs Force (ultimatums and decisions made for him which later can lead him to acting out again in resentment and displaced projected anger denying his responsibility) would be something I'd give some thought to and how to approach this - as if everything is a choice.

[blackorchid]

Hi Alibaba.

I just caught u with your situation and like many others have said I am here to support you   I truly hope that this ressolves and you and your son have the happy, conflict-free life that you truly deserve.  Thank you so much for helping me when you were going through all of this.  You are an incredibly strong women and I hope that the new plan you have helps you to be in the place you want to be

[allibaba]

GreenMango I am not at all familiar with a comprehensive treatment plan for BPD.  

I am aware of therapeutic separations because went did one back in 2008 due to some unsavory behavior at home.  I would love to participate in a family component of therapy.  I am in the very odd position where I feel no defensiveness about my role in things!

I think that you are correct that his little moves are frequently enough in our house to hit the reset button.  He's now broken through the craziness though.  He told me (very emotionally) last night that his mind starts racing and he goes into almost a fog and when that happens he feels powerless over his emotions.  He told me that both good stress and bad stress have the same impact on him physically.  The anxiety drives his aggression fight instinct and its horrible.  He's admitted that there is a chemical imbalance which needs to be addressed if there is any hope for him.  He's also told me that he feels like he is an old man (he's 48) and that he feels in a dark place, that he will never again be a successful, functioning person (as if its too late for him) and at times he just wants to sit back and wallow in it.  I told him that I won't accept that path and if he choses it, then he's on his own.

I agree that all of this needs to be his choice.  In fact, I am happy to know that its his choice.  There a lot of peace in knowing that you can't control the outcome of a situation and I am actually in the place where I don't even want to.

We've a good two days which has allowed things to calm down enough to have a

[allibaba]

And thanks for your encouraging words blackorchid!

[momtara]

Sounds like he is aware he has an illness.  But will he be strong enough to change in order to save his family?

The therapy has to be frequent and he has to eventually acknowledge the threatening behavior and how unreasonable it is and how emotionally damaging it is.  BPD people don't even realize it.  They have to be told.

You have put up with too much, and your son is old enough that he'll start to be affected.  Be strong.  If you think there's a chance you want to save this marriage, stick to your guns.  If it's just too much, you have every right to leave.

By the way, just because he said he doesn't want custody, doesn't mean that he will stick by this.  My husband made some comment like that, and then when I filed for divorce, he filed for custody!  Granted, it was just a legal move so that he could get at least some visitation (he didn't really want custody) but I wouldn't want you to get complacent.  If he has money (which my husband does not) he could make it ever harder for you to leave.  So just protect yourself legally.  Document and record any of his suicide threats or anything else.

[GreenMango]

It makes sense his stress reaction fuels an endorphin rush and crash.  Flight or fight.

These situations, when you get to the point of enough, can really be helpful for ourselves. 

You seem in a good place to change your life - it could be with him, it without depending on his actions and what you need.

[waverider]

It makes sense his stress reaction fuels an endorphin rush and crash.  Flight or fight.

Be aware that insight and awareness will not stop this happening again, even if way down the track. We just had a major one of these after about 6 months relative conflict free, which resulted in me leaving the house and changing/revising a few boundaries. I should have revised the relevant boundary and action earlier to prevent this as the cause and effect had occurred as possibility.

The point is still  keep your boundaries fresh in your mind and be ready anytime, as these triggering stress levels can come anytime out of the blue, Therapy or not.

[allibaba]

It makes sense his stress reaction fuels an endorphin rush and crash.  Flight or fight.

Be aware that insight and awareness will not stop this happening again, even if way down the track. We just had a major one of these after about 6 months relative conflict free, which resulted in me leaving the house and changing/revising a few boundaries. I should have revised the relevant boundary and action earlier to prevent this as the cause and effect had occurred as possibility.

The point is still  keep your boundaries fresh in your mind and be ready anytime, as these triggering stress levels can come anytime out of the blue, Therapy or not.

Thanks for this.  My conviction is stronger than its ever been.  Not going to live like this anymore.  He can get on the train and join a better life or leave me to a better life on my own.  This probably sounds very arrogant but I have been jumping around for almost 10 yrs doing it his way and that way isn't working.  His way - it gets worse and worse.  I've stopped worrying about being fair and reasonable to him.  I'm going to be myself (actually quite a nice person but generally strong willed) and if he doesn't like it... . he can move on.

[Grey Kitty]

  Hearing this strength from you is wonderful! You go, girl!