Minor victory (and I keep learning this same lesson... )

[Matt]

I was in court yesterday over child support.  I completely forgot about it til my computer gave me a one-hour notice - "Court".  I couldn't think of anything else it might be, so I printed out the documents and went to where I thought it would be... .

Background:

* Married 1996, separated 2006, divorced 2008.  S15, D16 - 50/50 custody (formally) but they spend most of their time with me, and they're both doing well, except for some concerns about depression in S15 lately.  SD23 and SS35.

* At the time we settled, I agreed to pay a little child support.  I wasn't working at the time, but I had made a good income, and expected to in the future.

* In fact my ex now makes more than me, and gets government benefits.  I have struggled financially but the kids are on my insurance and I pay most of their costs.

* I can't get a job in my previous field because my then-wife accused me of assault, and that record is available to employers online.  There is no way to seal that record.

* I fell behind making this payment, but have paid it consistently the last several months.

* When I send checks, they are deposited and I have the canceled checks as proof of payment, but my ex sometimes claims she never got the money, and her claims have proved true - the state bureaucracy is incompetent.

* When I pay online, I have an immediate record, and my ex seems to get her money quickly.

In court, the state bureaucrat - a lawyer acting to enforce CS - immediately accused me of not paying since March.  She said she had documentation.  I asked to respond, and stated that I had paid every month, and I had printed out the report from the state's computer less than an hour before court.

I should have printed more than one copy.  I handed my copy to the lawyer, and after a few minutes she admitted she was wrong - she didn't know how to use her own web site to get the current information.  She then argued that I was still one month behind, because I made no payment in July, but I was able to show that I made a payment the last day of June and another the first day of August.  (Turns out you don't have to be very smart to get a law degree and a government job.)

The result was the judge cut it all short and said "There is no problem here.  Let's review again in November."  I was unhappy that this will be repeated in November - it takes time away from productive stuff - but he said that if there are still no problems that will be the last time.

The lesson, of course, is to bring documentation of everything.  If I hadn't had that printout from the government's own web site, this might have gotten ugly.  With it, I had no problem.  (But next time I'll bring more copies.)

I keep telling myself I should go back to court to end the child support - or get my ex to pay me - but I just don't have the energy to do it.  I hate court and I don't have much respect for the kinds of people who are involved in stuff like this;  I just prefer to avoid them when I can.  Only about 3 more years... .

[DreamGirl]

Gotta love being right.  

My husband once brought 4 years of weekly canceled checks - one paid to her and one paid to the daycare - 416 pages and a $250 research bill to the bank to prove her saying "he's behind in child support and isn't paying daycare" as false.

I don't criticize very often our court system, because it's really worked well for my husband and me, but I do think that child support collection could use some help.  

I keep telling myself I should go back to court to end the child support - or get my ex to pay me - but I just don't have the energy to do it.  I hate court and I don't have much respect for the kinds of people who are involved in stuff like this;  I just prefer to avoid them when I can.  Only about 3 more years... .

I agree. My husband's support is low enough (and she should be paying him as well) but it's just not worth the upheaval of all that's been sustained for so long. The kids are good and the oldest is with us full time.

It's worth every penny.  

[Matt]

What's worse than the money - and one reason I want to avoid those people - is being treated like dirt.  The phrase "deadbeat dad" - in Arizona there are about as many "deadbeat moms" as "deadbeat dads" - if you're male you're assumed to be scum and the mom is assumed to be a victim.  Meanwhile, back in the real world, I'm taking care of all four kids and working long hours, and their mom takes little responsibility for anything.

Sorry... . short rant... . I'm better now.

[DreamGirl]

The phrase "deadbeat dad" - in Arizona there are about as many "deadbeat moms" as "deadbeat dads" - if you're male you're assumed to be scum and the mom is assumed to be a victim.  Meanwhile, back in the real world, I'm taking care of all four kids and working long hours, and their mom takes little responsibility for anything.

Is that a real statistic? Is the number the same or is the percentage the same?

Sorry... . short rant... . I'm better now.

I get it. It's a tough situation.

[ForeverDad]

In my state the Child Support Enforcement Agency (CSEA) always lists the payer of child support as the non-primary parent.  News flash: I pay child support but have custody and equal time.  Every notice lists me as non-primary.  Try to get the staff to fix that and you'll hear, "It's the program, if you pay child support the printouts will always describe you as the non-primary parent."

[Matt]

The phrase "deadbeat dad" - in Arizona there are about as many "deadbeat moms" as "deadbeat dads" - if you're male you're assumed to be scum and the mom is assumed to be a victim.  Meanwhile, back in the real world, I'm taking care of all four kids and working long hours, and their mom takes little responsibility for anything.

Is that a real statistic? Is the number the same or is the percentage the same?

Here's a recent summary nationwide:

According to the U.S. Census, custodial mothers received $19.5 billion of the $31.7 billion in support that was due (61.5 percent), and custodial fathers received $1.9 billion of the $3.5 billion that was due (54.3 percent) in 2010.

So moms owe far less and are more likely to be late or just not pay.  My guess is, some moms don't accept that they should have to pay - they don't expect it since they're moms.  Dads are more likely to expect they'll have to pay CS and to accept it, because on TV it's always the dad that has to pay.

I've seen Arizona numbers - I think the amounts due are closer than the national ones - that is, moms are more likely to have to pay in Arizona than these national numbers indicate, so the total number of deadbeat moms comes closer to the number of dads.

But of course my point was that just walking into the courtroom, I'm assumed to be wrong.  I'm raising the kids and paying for almost everything, and paying CS I shouldn't have to, and I'm current on it - but I'm on the defensive.  Oh and by the way, the money I pay for CS is really alimony - my ex doesn't use it for the kids.  She got more than $100,000 from SD23's biodad, and when SD got into college, not a penny of it was in her college fund - but I had set one up and funded it with no help from her mom or biodad.  So calling it "child support" - with no check as to how the money is actually used - is kind of offensive too, when I'm in this mood.

www.azfamily.com/news/local/Deadbeat-Moms-Child-support-offenders-in-Arizona-147355365.html

[david]

Penn. and I think a lot of states have an incentive to collect CS through your employer. If the state collects CS instead of the individual sending in a check they get money from the feds. I was always on time in my payments and after two years the county sent a notice saying I was in arrears and had me appear in court. I was yelled at before I could show evidence that I was current until the county got involved and I was unable to figure out what they were doing. They couldn't explain it to me either. They then ordered that CS be collected through my employer.

[livednlearned]

I understand not having the energy to fight this stuff, and to hate how it feels being in court. (Wow, do I ever.  )

But can you bring sufficient documentation next time to show the disparity in income, plus the amount of time your kids are with you, and make a case for yourself? So maybe not filing a motion to end CS, but use the opportunity of your ex making a big deal about this to introduce the unfairness of your situation? So medium effort to see how it goes, instead of maximum effort that just feels too awful for now? Three years is a long time... .

[Matt]

Penn. and I think a lot of states have an incentive to collect CS through your employer. If the state collects CS instead of the individual sending in a check they get money from the feds. I was always on time in my payments and after two years the county sent a notice saying I was in arrears and had me appear in court. I was yelled at before I could show evidence that I was current until the county got involved and I was unable to figure out what they were doing. They couldn't explain it to me either. They then ordered that CS be collected through my employer.

I'm a contractor so there's no employer, and in any case I would not want my employer to be involved if I could help it.

There is definitely an assumption of guilt.  There was no reason to have court at all yesterday - I almost just didn't go, but theoretically I could be arrested if I don't show up... .

[Matt]

I understand not having the energy to fight this stuff, and to hate how it feels being in court. (Wow, do I ever.  )

But can you bring sufficient documentation next time to show the disparity in income, plus the amount of time your kids are with you, and make a case for yourself? So maybe not filing a motion to end CS, but use the opportunity of your ex making a big deal about this to introduce the unfairness of your situation? So medium effort to see how it goes, instead of maximum effort that just feels too awful for now? Three years is a long time... .

Well if I understand correctly, there is one process for collecting CS as it has been set - that's what this was about yesterday - and another process, with a different court, for getting it re-figured.  The judge yesterday was helpful - I think he saw what was happening - but I think if I tried to dispute how much I should be paying, that would have been shut down - it's not relevant.

I checked out the process for getting the amount changed, and it looks pretty complicated.  I even called them to ask some questions but they made it clear they wouldn't answer any - again, I was treated like dirt, after waiting on hold for over an hour.  So I'd have to either hire a lawyer, or try to figure it out on my own... .

[ForeverDad]

I keep telling myself I should go back to court to end the child support - or get my ex to pay me - but I just don't have the energy to do it.  I hate court and I don't have much respect for the kinds of people who are involved in stuff like this;  I just prefer to avoid them when I can.  Only about 3 more years... .

If your money is tight and you would pay less or nothing, that should be motivation to file for recalculation of child support, right?  And it might take some financial pressure off you too.  As I recall, asking for CS to be updated or recalculated is a fairly standard matter.  A no brainer.  Come on, Scarecrow from Oz, put that brain to use.

[DreamGirl]

The state calculator is here: www.azcourts.gov/familylaw/2011ChildSupportCalculator.aspx

You can also hire a paralegal. I did that and it cost me $250 and she simply showed me the papers I needed and I filed it all myself. It really wasn't that complicated, it really was just a step by step process with her keen eye telling if anything was missing.

It helped that the ex was in agreement though.  

[Matt]

I keep telling myself I should go back to court to end the child support - or get my ex to pay me - but I just don't have the energy to do it.  I hate court and I don't have much respect for the kinds of people who are involved in stuff like this;  I just prefer to avoid them when I can.  Only about 3 more years... .

If your money is tight and you would pay less or nothing, that should be motivation to file for recalculation of child support, right?  And it might take some financial pressure off you too.  As I recall, asking for CS to be updated or recalculated is a fairly standard matter.  A no brainer.  Come on, Scarecrow from Oz, put that brain to use.

Yeah, you're right, if I could do it myself (no lawyer) and if my chance of success is even 50/50 it would make sense to do.  I'm just really, really tired of all this stuff... .

Another option is I could confront my ex with the information and offer to settle somehow.

A complication is that we just recently (last week) agreed on a change to the schedule - S15 now here all the time, except when he and Ex work out some time together.  In practice this will probably mean he's with her when I travel - average 1 night a week - which is pretty much the best solution - not good for him to be alone here under the circumstances.  So if I filed for a change to CS, citing the time the kids spend here, it could be seen as advocating the change to S15's schedule as part of my effort to get out of CS.

In related news, we got his biopsy back today - an ugly growth on his finger which was removed last week - negative - minor procedure in the doctor's office.  A huge relief.  (He named the growth D16's name, which was pretty funny - even she had to laugh.  Like Bart Simpson calling a big wart "Lisa".)

[Matt]

The state calculator is here: www.azcourts.gov/familylaw/2011ChildSupportCalculator.aspx

You can also hire a paralegal. I did that and it cost me $250 and she simply showed me the papers I needed and I filed it all myself. It really wasn't that complicated, it really was just a step by step process with her keen eye telling if anything was missing.

It helped that the ex was in agreement though.  

Yes, this is the calculator we originally used, but it was based on my "imputed" income - what I had been making before - about three times what I'm making now (plus benefits).  And at that time she wasn't working - now she works for the government so she makes OK money with good benefits.

I'll give this some thought, maybe after we have some success with the revised schedule and S15's issues are looking good... .

Thanks!

Matt

[ForeverDad]

Since you'll be back in court in 3 months, you have time to review what forms you need.  Time challenged as we are  - procrastinators - get the forms ASAP and figure it out now.  Then sit on it for a month or two and then contact ex a few weeks before the next appearance and say, "You know, my income still isn't back to what it was and I've been struggling for a long time to send the CS.  I think we need to bring our income statements with us to court and ask the court to recalculate CS."  You've mentioned she is somewhat passive so hopefully she won't overreact - much.  You can always add, "It just needs to go down some.  I don't know if the court will let us name a new amount, I've heard they might not accept a lower payment without supporting data.  Let's leave it up to the court to do the figures."

By the way, when calculating CS the court might ignore your informal agreement for S15 to live more with you.  So that may not be an issue for CS purposes.  If it's not in the order, it doesn't exist, maybe.

[Matt]

Since you'll be back in court in 3 months, you have time to review what forms you need.  Time challenged as we are  - procrastinators - get the forms ASAP and figure it out now.  Then sit on it for a month or two and then contact ex a few weeks before the next appearance and say, "You know, my income still isn't back to what it was and I've been struggling for a long time to send the CS.  I think we need to bring our income statements with us to court and ask the court to recalculate CS."  You've mentioned she is somewhat passive so hopefully she won't overreact - much.  You can always add, "It just needs to go down some.  I don't know if the court will let us name a new amount, I've heard they might not accept a lower payment without supporting data.  Let's leave it up to the court to do the figures."

By the way, when calculating CS the court might ignore your informal agreement for S15 to live more with you.  So that may not be an issue for CS purposes.  If it's not in the order, it doesn't exist, maybe.

Unfortunately, when we're back in court, it will be the same court, and will deal only with enforcement of the current order.  There won't be an opportunity to say CS should be changed.

That's a different process with a different court.

Realistically I don't think my ex would ever agree to a change, unless I did all the work and someone other than me told her, "You're going to lose - you better settle."  She thinks lawyers walk on water - if a lawyer told her to jump she'd say "How high?".  But we have no lawyers involved now, so I think it would take the judge either ruling in my favor or giving her a very clear signal that she should settle.  I'll have to do all the homework to get that to happen.

Part of that would be documenting how much time the kids spend here, which would be very divisive.  Ex would say I'm lying.  She's also made it clear that she would say I'm lying about my income (as she has in the past).  I'd have to prove every detail.

[DreamGirl]

It also could get messy since your "imputed income" was higher. They could still hold you to that because in the court's eye it's based on your potential earnings (with the reason of her false allegations as to why you earn less become something of a subjective matter).

Do you know how much she actually makes?

Would it go down using the current order (50/50) with your actualy wages? Or even just her HIGHER wages?  

[Forward2free]

In Aust they can review based on inputed tax so that help's take a lot of the work out of it for the parents.

I know it's a crap situation to have to face, and I have avoided taking BPD/Nxh to court over cash in hand and dodging his child support payments - making it almost the lowest amount it can be for the last 4 years.

But, if I was in a financial position where is mattered more to be right, then I would do it, for the kids sake.

You're a big inspiration to all of us. What advice would you give yourself?

[Matt]

It also could get messy since your "imputed income" was higher. They could still hold you to that because in the court's eye it's based on your potential earnings (with the reason of her false allegations as to why you earn less become something of a subjective matter).

Do you know how much she actually makes?

Would it go down using the current order (50/50) with your actualy wages? Or even just her HIGHER wages?  

Yeah - exactly.  I could argue that my income over the last few years is what it is - maybe propose the average of the last three years, for example - but it wouldn't be as simple as just showing my current W-2.

No, I don't really know exactly what she makes.  I have a good idea - she's a county employee - but the only way I know to prove it is to get the information from her, and I don't think she would provide it until the court ordered her to.  So the first hearing would probably be about these issues - how much we both make, and how much time the kids spend with each of us.

If 50/50 was the basis, with our current incomes, it might be a wash - nobody pays anybody - which would be OK with me.  My case would be stronger if I could claim they're with me most of the time - which they are - but I think she would argue the point, and the judge wouldn't have anything solid to go on.

Maybe polygraph tests... . ?

[whirlpoollife]

Matt,  I received some inheritance. (not much, but nice)  My L said for me to report it to c/s department. I did. They said that is not income but I did what I was suppose to.

x2bh L has petitioned for an effective date of when I received it for a possible hearing to change the c/s. My L said, from this, most likely I wont receive any c/s or pay h c/s.  It is not an income, its a  onetime payment  but its just above his income. Currently I make a fraction of what he makes and I have paid everything for the kids. When the child support comes into me now, it goes to the kids.

So, if things can get turned around from a one time payment that is not income, you surely shouldn't be paying any c/s if ex is making more than you.

[Matt]

Matt,  I received some inheritance. (not much, but nice)  My L said for me to report it to c/s department. I did. They said that is not income but I did what I was suppose to.

x2bh L has petitioned for an effective date of when I received it for a possible hearing to change the c/s. My L said, from this, most likely I wont receive any c/s or pay h c/s.  It is not an income, its a  onetime payment  but its just above his income. Currently I make a fraction of what he makes and I have paid everything for the kids. When the child support comes into me now, it goes to the kids.

So, if things can get turned around from a one time payment that is not income, you surely shouldn't be paying any c/s if ex is making more than you.

Yeah, I'm convinced that common sense and the math are on my side, but getting the information to prove that may be difficult... .

The total amount at stake is about $3,600 (if it went to $0 - nobody pays anybody anymore) - total between now and the time the kids are 18.

[sanemom]

I totally understand not wanting to fight it.  It just depends if $3800 is worth the drama.   

And you are right, the moms are usually given special treatment often.  In our situation, she is years behind, owes $18k, but the child support office is not garnishing currently because we have a case set for mediation.  I guarantee you that if she were a he, they would be garnishing.  It's ridiculous.