Latest revelation

[Depression = 72% of members]

Mean people don't like themselves.  Ta da.  That's it in a nutshell.  I was thinking about the lead at work, she can really get worked up and tear you up one side and down the other.  She really hates herself.  I must be better because it's not phasing me like it used to, my thoughts go to wait a minute, I didn't deserve that.  Heh heh.  Taking the power back and realizing, she tears herself up one side and down the other so it comes natural to do it to other people.  Sad person.

[Rose Tiger]

Mean people don't like themselves.  Ta da.  That's it in a nutshell.  I was thinking about the lead at work, she can really get worked up and tear you up one side and down the other.  She really hates herself.  I must be better because it's not phasing me like it used to, my thoughts go to wait a minute, I didn't deserve that.  Heh heh.  Taking the power back and realizing, she tears herself up one side and down the other so it comes natural to do it to other people.  Sad person.

[catsprt]

TR, I know what you mean. Whatever she does, it is part of her one woman show and an excellent opportunity to work on my invisible shield.

[livednlearned]

Mean people don't like themselves.  Ta da.  That's it in a nutshell.  I was thinking about the lead at work, she can really get worked up and tear you up one side and down the other.  She really hates herself.  I must be better because it's not phasing me like it used to, my thoughts go to wait a minute, I didn't deserve that.  Heh heh.  Taking the power back and realizing, she tears herself up one side and down the other so it comes natural to do it to other people.  Sad person.

This made my day! I love how you phrase it.

I work with someone similar, although she's super tricky for me. She has OCD and a lot of anxiety, and has a lot of stress in her life, some of it unavoidable, some of it self-induced. She has some qualities in common with mean people in my family --- they can be extremely funny and very quick witted, and you think everything is great, and then suddenly you're bleeding profusely and have a machete sticking out your back. Even when things are funny, it's because they're eviscerating someone and being ruthlessly mean about them. As a kid, I learned to laugh at their jokes so I wouldn't be the target. Except know what? You always end up being the target with mean people. Even mean people who pretend to be nice to you.

She's a good person for me to practice my skills on. She's tricky because she allies with me, to fulfill some insecure need, I think. And then throws me under the bus when she senses an opportunity to ambush me. I kept coming out of these meetings feeling like I did as a kid when I got in trouble after the rules changed without anyone telling me.

[Surnia]

  RT

Its interesting! Perhaps it starts when we are more relaxed and with better self esteem we are able to watch a person like "she is" and not so much "what she is doing to me" or "what is wrong with me?"

[Rose Tiger]

Invisible shield!  Good analogy Catsprt. 

Yes, LnL!  One minute they are your best bud, the next you are wondering what just hit you.  I was thinking about how a person reaps what they sow.  If you show mercy towards others, mercy will be given to you.  Live by the sword, die by the sword.  That sort of thing, what you put out to the universe is what returns to you.  Like King David, Saul wanted him dead but David refused to hurt Saul, just kept bobbing and weaving.  Then we he was caught in that one situation, he pretended to be a blathering idiot, foaming at the mouth nutcase, and they let him go.  Heh heh.  Have to be a bit wily when dealing with Sauls.

I told the lead, I didn't keep you in the loop on this issue to make you angry but so we could understand where the glitch happened.  She said, no no, I'm not angry and thank you for keeping me in the loop. 

Ok, that is better!     I didn't cause the glitch, don't come yelling at me about it when I'm trying to get it fixed.  (I didn't say that last part.)

[Grey Kitty]

One of my favorite sayings that i saw on the bumper of a meditation teacher's car:

Mean people are hurting



I try to remind myself of that as situations come up.

[Knowingishalf]

you have figured it out my friend... .This is one of the most important observations I have seen to date.

[fromheeltoheal]

Yes, unhappy people spew their vitriol all over everyone, I know, I've been one of them.

But the most important benefit to me of my time in BPD hell was the lessons I got under extreme duress.  The anger and rage I ended up feeling towards my BPD ex awakened my anger in general; it had been sleeping in People Pleaser me for a long, long time, and denying ourselves certain feelings never works, they find a way to manifest anyway.  What a relief!  And there's a snowball effect; once my anger towards my BPD ex ran its course, anger towards other people that I'd stuffed for too long started bubbling up, and I spent months barging around in a near-constant rage.  Hey, at least I got it out and I didn't go to jail.

But having gotten tired of that, it's exhausting, I discovered something profound.  If I let another person's anger or negativity infect me, it will march right in and screw up my life, just as it did theirs.  But there's a solution, an option.  If I manufacturer massive amounts of love for that person, on a visceral level that I can feel kinesthetically all over my body, a calmness comes over me, I feel every cell in my body relax, and it feels great.  Love is a way to keep the anger at bay, and in a sense it's boundary preservation, it keeps their rage out.  And maybe, just maybe, if I love them strongly enough they feel it, or not, doesn't matter.  But it feels good mostly because that's who I am, it's a coming home for me, it's a rejection of that caustic hatred that is like a cancer, and will literally make us sick.  And it's entirely possible to have extreme love for someone, for my benefit, and keep them out of my life.  Boundary preservation and it feels good over here.

[nolisan]

I feel there is "healthy anger". It has taken a long time for me to befriend this in myself. I find it is something that serves a purpose ... .then I can let it go.

Unhealthy anger for me includes resentments that I hold on to. Ultimately they harm me. It's like drinking poison hoping the other person will die.

Today I try to avoid unhealthy anger in myself and others.

[Rose Tiger]

Healthy anger... .

If I manufacturer massive amounts of love for that person, on a visceral level that I can feel kinesthetically all over my body, a calmness comes over me, I feel every cell in my body relax, and it feels great.  Love is a way to keep the anger at bay, and in a sense it's boundary preservation, it keeps their rage out.

How can you feel love for someone that you want to knock them upside the head with a 2 by 4?   

[Rose Tiger]

Someone does you wrong.  You feel the anger and resentment rising.  Of course you feel it, they are being mean, unfair, arses.  You can't take it out on them.  They aren't going to stop acting the way they act.  You can't even let them know they are getting to you, the big bully.

Acceptance.  That dang well makes me angry.  Well of course it does, that is natural to feel when someone acts like that.  Accepting the feeling.  The feeling is ok.

It's what you do with it.  That adrenaline rush.  Maybe I need a punching bag in my cube at work?  A voodoo doll to stick pins into. 

[fromheeltoheal]

Healthy anger... .

If I manufacturer massive amounts of love for that person, on a visceral level that I can feel kinesthetically all over my body, a calmness comes over me, I feel every cell in my body relax, and it feels great.  Love is a way to keep the anger at bay, and in a sense it's boundary preservation, it keeps their rage out.

How can you feel love for someone that you want to knock them upside the head with a 2 by 4?  

The way I see it, if I feel anger towards someone I've removed from my life, it's a resentment that is hurting no one but me.  We've all heard about forgiveness, and how it's important to forgive someone for us, not for them, and resentment is like "drinking poison expecting the other person to die" (cheesy cliche I know, but the point is clear), and how we should forgive but not forget.  Yadda, yadda.

But after years of trying to find out HOW to forgive someone, the only thing I've found that works is to love them to death, envelope them in my love, my love is stronger than all their crap.  Whatever, it's a belief, and for me it actually works, very well; if they're cloaked in my love they can't hurt me anymore, and it dissipates the anger and resentment immediately, in a way that I can feel all over my body, very calming.

Doesn't mean that anger won't come back, and there are plenty of folks I've been pissed at in addition to my BPD, but in the moment it works, every time.  I've been getting into mindfulness and meditation, and my belief is we need to spend more time and energy loving them, to ourselves mind you, than the anger creates, much more sometimes, and eventually it will dissipate for good.  It also fits who I am; I've never been one to fight fire with fire, I'm a lover, and that's my strength.  Try it, just for minute.  No really.

[livednlearned]

The way I see it, if I feel anger towards someone I've removed from my life, it's a resentment that is hurting no one but me.  

It does seem easier to forgive and find love for someone when you have removed them from your life. Much more difficult when it's someone in your life every day, no?

[fromheeltoheal]

The way I see it, if I feel anger towards someone I've removed from my life, it's a resentment that is hurting no one but me.  

It does seem easier to forgive and find love for someone when you have removed them from your life. Much more difficult when it's someone in your life every day, no?

Absolutely, and that's been part of this People Pleaser establishing and maintaining healthy boundaries, the journey having started by removing my BPD ex from my life.  It's had a snowball effect, and removing people who aren't empowering me from my life has been pretty easy, but can be more difficult if you're forced to work with them or were previously married to them and have kids.

A more difficult thing, one I'm still taking baby steps with, is letting the right people in.  My old mindset was to 'treat people the way I want to be treated', any person, and expecting it to work.  Doesn't always; some people aren't willing and some aren't capable.  Paying attention and having people earn the right to my vulnerability is new, still fumbling, but that's where meaningful connection is found, and what else matters?

[Rose Tiger]

Healthy boundaries, yes.  And a step further is healthy assertiveness.  In the past, sit and fume how someone else is acting.  Get mad.  Do nothing about it but gripe and moan.  It's really hard for me to stick up for myself, that was so drummed out of me growing up.  Having my thoughts and feelings taken seriously, nope, I was taught they don't matter.

Turning that around to yes, they do matter.  Yes, I am important. You don't want to bite someone's head off though but you don't want to be a snivelling doormat either.  I need a role model, someone to study and emulate.  They say fake it until you make it.  I walk into work thinking 'confidence confidence confidence' head high, walking tall.  I see enginneers shuffling by staring at their shoes.  Those are not good role models.  There is that old joke, how can you tell an engineer is being assertive?  They stare at your shoes instead of their own. 

As the reparenting goes on, from learning to accept myself unconditionally and to stop beating myself up, the next step is to learn how to communicate more effectively.  How to earn respect. 

[fromheeltoheal]

Healthy boundaries, yes.  And a step further is healthy assertiveness.  In the past, sit and fume how someone else is acting.  Get mad.  :)o nothing about it but gripe and moan.  It's really hard for me to stick up for myself, that was so drummed out of me growing up.  Having my thoughts and feelings taken seriously, nope, I was taught they don't matter.

Turning that around to yes, they do matter.  Yes, I am important. You don't want to bite someone's head off though but you don't want to be a snivelling doormat either.  I need a role model, someone to study and emulate.  They say fake it until you make it.  I walk into work thinking 'confidence confidence confidence' head high, walking tall.  I see enginneers shuffling by staring at their shoes.  Those are not good role models.  There is that old joke, how can you tell an engineer is being assertive?  They stare at your shoes instead of their own.  

As the reparenting goes on, from learning to accept myself unconditionally and to stop beating myself up, the next step is to learn how to communicate more effectively.  How to earn respect.  

You remind me of me Rose; we are wired similarly.  And I'm an engineer, go figure, although I don't fit the stereotype well, folks have always labelled me "weird" and "different", which I'm more proud of than anything.

To me the choices are passive, aggressive and assertive, and like you I've spent plenty of time in sniveling doormat mode.  I went through a very angry phase as I detached from my BPD ex, which showed up as aggressive behavior, and actually felt a whole lot better than passive, but you're right, healthy assertiveness is a step up.  Aggression is a way to enforce boundaries, a popular way I've found, although it drives people away.  Some people have needed to be driven away, part of healthy boundaries is some people just gotta go, but assertiveness is better for earning respect and building connection.  I have a couple of opportunities this weekend to practice assertiveness, and we'll see how I do.  

You said something that hit a chord.  If I am used to beating myself up it will feel familiar coming from other people, which sets me up for tolerating it and taking a passive role.  It would be great if I could stop beating myself up all by myself, and I have gotten a lot better, but I don't have to do it alone, and communicating openly with people who care about me and asking them to help me is a major step.  It's all about connection.  Thanks for getting me thinking; it just keeps getting better.

[myself]

Yeah, if you're feeling better about yourself because you're above somebody else, and you're taking out your problems on someone else, you haven't made it very far, from what I can see, and it's nothing to brag about.

One reason there are so many stories about ugly ducklings becoming great swans, and frogs becoming princes, for example, is not just to be a story or a day dream but to remind us that it's possible. That each of us can change, that each of us has that seed within us that can grow with the right attention and care. That's why the good guys win so many times. Because we can. It's only when we do it that it actually happens, though.

Becoming engineers of our own todays.

[Rose Tiger]

Oh, I'm sorry FHTH, it's a stereotype, I know engineers that are outgoing and gregarious, too.   

I think you are on to something, when we won't allow that negative self talk to ourselves, we start putting the kabash on it from others!

Hi myself    Great analogy.  I was thinking that mean people are hurting... .by choice!  We have choices, too.

[fromheeltoheal]

Nah, we're good Rose, no offense taken.  Interestingly, I've been an engineer for a long time, and lately I've been reading Brene Browns books in which she discusses vulnerability and the courage involved to display it.  Engineering is just applied physics and takes lots of forms, but in general an engineer is using his skills and knowledge to create something that didn't exist before, a solution to a unique problem.  Using creativity, coming up with a solution, following through with it to create a design, and then publishing it for the masses takes courage and is vulnerable.  It opens us up to the critics, many of whom don't have the understanding we do but find it appropriate to criticize anyway.  I spent a lot of time doing that with no empathy, no validation and no compassion, and ended up feeling just terrible about myself, even though logically I knew I was doing a great job.  Today it's about finding allies, asking for the validation if needed, being open with people who understand, while continuing to 'dare greatly' as Brene puts it.  Lots of parallels in my career to what I'm focusing on in my life, and I can fully relate to engineers who have shattered confidence.  Then again there's the somewhat introverted personality type that is common among folks who pursue engineering, and that's a whole other conversation.

[Rose Tiger]

I've been watching wiki hows. www.wikihow.com/Be-Assertive



There was a stuffed toy mouse at the grocery store with a huge smile and a 'press me' button.  I always press these because my teen gets so embarrassed when I do.  It said "I LIKE YOU!  You are FANTASTIC!  I really really LIKE YOU!"  I almost bought the darn thing.