wording of parenting coordinator thing in final divorce agreement

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

My lawyer is putting in our final decree that we are to retain a parenting coordinator who makes binding recommendations.  My hubby knows nothing about PC's and nothing about me wanting one... .until he sees this agreement.  I imagine his lawyer might talk him out of it.  His lawyer is not exclusively a family lawyer and may not understand PC's either.  I think we should put in there more specific stuff, like, "In an effort to reach common ground on parenting decisions... ." and also include an explanation of what a PC does. 

Should I put a time limit in there?  Like, have a PC on retainer for up to 2 years?  This may come back to haunt me if we're still paying for one 7 years from now.

How should it be worded?  How did you word it?  How can I make him interested in retaining one? From his staNPDoint, he has everything to lose.  He already has little parenting time and he has mental health issues. 

[momtara]

My lawyer is putting in our final decree that we are to retain a parenting coordinator who makes binding recommendations.  My hubby knows nothing about PC's and nothing about me wanting one... .until he sees this agreement.  I imagine his lawyer might talk him out of it.  His lawyer is not exclusively a family lawyer and may not understand PC's either.  I think we should put in there more specific stuff, like, "In an effort to reach common ground on parenting decisions... ." and also include an explanation of what a PC does. 

Should I put a time limit in there?  Like, have a PC on retainer for up to 2 years?  This may come back to haunt me if we're still paying for one 7 years from now.

How should it be worded?  How did you word it?  How can I make him interested in retaining one? From his staNPDoint, he has everything to lose.  He already has little parenting time and he has mental health issues. 

[david]

The courts ordered a pc for us for two years. We had to sign a contract with the pc which spelled out all the conditions and how it worked. We had an initial meeting with the pc to go over how things were to work. I am in Penn. and just this year the state supreme court ruled that only a judge can make custody decisions or changes in custody orders. Of course, parents can but pc's are basically gone in this state. The ruling actually ended all pc arrangements at a specific date. It also made all our pc rulings null and void.

[Ishenuts]

I wish they would get rid of PCs in my state! We were mandated to go to a PC prior to going back to court on issues we couldn't agree to. My uNPDexH uses the PC to fight with me. Things that should be easily resolved are brought to the PC because unless he "wins" with me, he forces appointments with the PC to argue his side, and to try to make me appear to be a bad parent. It's such a major waste of time and $$$$. She is unable to make decisions or make him see the folly of his arguments. We went to court in September. Prior to going before the judge, our 2 lawyers had to meet with a Family Court mediator whose job it is to try to keep us from having to go before the judge. The FC Mediator was reasonable, and saw how foolish the ex was being, and we had an agreement in a few hours. Why couldn't the PC do that? According to my lawyer, that's her responsibility. It's so frustrating! I want to just walk out, but I know how much power she has, even though she is useless. She's supposed to be an 'expert' in DV. HUH? Where's that expertise when he's screaming at me and calling me names in front of her? And threatening to 'financially ruin me' and keep the children from me because 'I already get them 50% of the time and I'm not getting them one minute more?' A waste! And PCs are not regulated so you can't sue them for malpractice. Just a new position created to get $$$ from us. 

[momtara]

Hmmm, maybe it's a waste.  I am the one pushing for a PC.  I feel like it's either that or a psych eval, and a psych eval will cost us more.  Did you get to choose yours?  Or how did you end up with the one you have?

[david]

A judge ordered it an both atty's agreed on the person. I had no idea which pc's were out there. Our pc was an atty and basically acted like a judge. Gave rulings with no explaination. There were a few that made no sense at all. All communication was through email. If one party had an issue they were to send it to pc and the other party. It had to be in the format of issue and what I want the pc to do.

In Pa, in addition to having the pc removed the state supreme court also said that judges must write their reason for their decisions.

[livednlearned]

My lawyer is putting in our final decree that we are to retain a parenting coordinator who makes binding recommendations.  My hubby knows nothing about PC's and nothing about me wanting one... .until he sees this agreement.  I imagine his lawyer might talk him out of it.  His lawyer is not exclusively a family lawyer and may not understand PC's either.  I think we should put in there more specific stuff, like, "In an effort to reach common ground on parenting decisions... ." and also include an explanation of what a PC does. 

Should I put a time limit in there?  Like, have a PC on retainer for up to 2 years?  This may come back to haunt me if we're still paying for one 7 years from now.

How should it be worded?  How did you word it?  How can I make him interested in retaining one? From his staNPDoint, he has everything to lose.  He already has little parenting time and he has mental health issues. 

My PC typically worked on a 2-year contract. I insisted on 1 year because I had heard so many awful stories. I was worried the same thing Ishenuts experienced would happen to my case.

I think I wrote this somewhere before -- mine trains PCs in our state. She is the best in the county, is a child psychologist, and has a very successful practice that is her main work. She is highly selective about which PC cases she takes, based on the lawyers involved.

Just like judges, PCs can be awful, or they can be good. Same as CEs, and GALS, and Ls, and every other professional involved in the family court system.

[Ishenuts]

It was mandated that we have a PC, but we picked the actual PC based on recommendations from our lawyers and the GAL. My lawyer is excellent, and recognized my ex was an NPD and has acted accordingly, to my benefit. Our PC is a therapist and an ex- Family Court mediator and highly regarded. I had high hopes! But she has been a disappointment. She allows the uNPDexH to verbally abuse me in her office, lets him rant and rave about all of his "problems" with my parenting, misinterprets the parenting plan (I go to the GAL for the proper interpretations since she wrote it), and basically kowtows to the ex. It is a waste of time and $$$. She will back down when I present the info from the GAL, but why can't she read the parenting plan? Example: ExH would make plane reservations for his vacations that required him to have the children early, during my parenting time, and tell me after the fact, thereby forcing me to let him have them. One time I said, "Too bad, the parenting plan says " ... .providing such changes are discussed by both parties in advance and made by mutual agreement and in writing". The PC said "it doesn't really say he has to ask you first, and you should consider what is in the best interest of the children". HUH? To me, it couldn't be clearer, and the GAL agreed. But it took 3 appointments to get that straightened out!

I guess there are no professionals that can counteract the craziness of a pwBPD/NPD.  I hope I live long enough to see the authorities, that have control over the lives of our children, recognize that craziness.

[momtara]

Hmmm, that does not bode well.  Maybe I should have asked for a psych eval when I had the chance.  My hubby may reject the PC anyway.  We are sending him the proposed settlement next week.

Meanwhile, just got a lawyer bill for 3500 for the last month.  I'm putting it all on credit cards but eventually I will hae to pay it off.  Such a waste.  This is all because of husband's craziness.  But I got two great kids out of it so I guess I don't get that angry.

[david]

One thing that may be helpful. When the papers were signed for the pc the next step for us was to have a meeting with the pc to set the ground rules and I guess for her to get a feel for both of us. Halfway through the meeting the pc stopped and said that she personally doesn't care for passive/aggresive behavior and if it didn't stop she would go to the judge and request that primary custody be changed. Since xBPDw had primary custody I figured she wasn't talking to me. Also, the fact that ex was being very p/a also indicated this may be a good thing for the kids and me. The problem was the pc never did anything about it the entire time even though ex continued to exhibit p/a behavior throughout. If I had to do it over again I would have asked the pc to put it in writing. Since she was an attorney this would have forced her to act on her own words.

[momtara]

Eek, that is a pretty severe thing.  I already have most of the parenting time so maybe the PC will only hurt me.  What kind of behavior did your wife exhibit that made her say this?

[david]

Ex was constantly giving obvious digs at me, I believe, in an attempt to get me to react. I have learned to treat it as just noise and ignore what she says. It's my "normal" when dealing with her.

I still get emails filled with anger. I only reply if there is something that pertains to the kids and I only reply to that part. I get emails that are pages long sometimes and save them all. The really "good" ones I send to my atty.

We had a custody conference two months ago. I am seeking more consistent time with our boys during the school year since they are doing over 90% of all their homework when they are with me. The few things she does with our S10 is usually very wrong and it takes me additional time, sometimes, to help him understand whatever it is. She confuses him to the point that he has started to tune her out when she is "teaching" him something. This makes her angry with him. It's a no win for him and we are working on that too. I actually showed his teacher what she is teaching him and explained the situation. Ex recently tried teaching him how to multiply three digit numbers. First off the answers were incorrect. Second, I am a math teacher and couldn't figure out what she was trying to do. His explaination of what she said followed what was on his paper but it made no sense.                                                                                                   It takes several times before the teacher gets it. I already have the teacher doing things differently to work around ex. I also suggested she talk to his teachers from the last two years. In the next few weeks I think the situation will be remedied for him. It's the same thing every year and I have gotten pretty good at it. It is what it is. S10 is doing very well in school and is probably going for straight A's for the second year in a row. This has actually helped with him and me. He trusts me more and more and has taken a cautious approach with his mom. She is a registered nurse and he now comes to me about medical/health issues. If he feels sick when he is with her he calls me to find out what to do.

[momtara]

Did you guys interview your PC before hiring her?

How did you afford her?  Did your exes agree to pay half?

I am starting to reconsider this.  Really what my ex needs is a psych eval and best interest evaluation.  Not all of this namby pampy stuff.  I am just afraid of court making it all worse.

[david]

The court picked the pc and made us pay 50/50. The only thing the pc did that was helpful was to enforce the custody agreement. Over time ex argued less and less about what the order meant. Example, our order states that Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter holiday be split 50/50. Since it is an odd number of days 50/50 was not possible. If there were seven days ex suggested it be split 5/2. I pointed out that what we could do was rotate from year to year. If this year was 4/3 than next year would be 3/4 so it would even out over a two year period. Ex insisted that wasn't 50/50 each year but somehow 5/2 was ? Paying thousands of dollars to have someone referee these things is ridiculous but eventually ex realized she wasn't going to "win".

What did happen is that once the pc time period was over ex wanted to continue. I had no desire unless she paid the entire amount. However, the force of the pc continued even after it was over. I was able to email ex and answer things the same way the pc did and ex followed along without much of a fight. I guess I became the pc by proxy in ex's head.

[livednlearned]

Did you guys interview your PC before hiring her?

How did you afford her?  :)id your exes agree to pay half?

I am starting to reconsider this.  Really what my ex needs is a psych eval and best interest evaluation.  Not all of this namby pampy stuff.  I am just afraid of court making it all worse.

I know these kinds of decisions are challenging and exhausting, and it's your babies -- you want them to be safe and that generates a lot of stress and anxiety. But the reason this decision is difficult is because you want to be able to control the outcome, and you can't. We can't. None of us can. Once you choose to involve a third-party professional, it's out of your hands. That can be a very good thing, or a very bad thing, depending on the quality of the third-party professional. Lawyers, GALs, PCs, psychologists, minor's counsels, they all have tremendous power over our cases. If they don't see the behavior we have experienced, it can be devastating.  

Your goal is to get your ex's behavior documented by a third-party professional. How you do that is somewhat of a gamble, although there are some strategic things you can do to improve your odds.

A PC is just one strategic tool. A psych eval is another. A PC might even order a psych eval, like mine did.

The ideal scenario is that you are permitted to select the PC you want, then find one you trust, interview him or her, and set up a parenting coordinator order that works for you. It's best if he or she is a psychologist, preferably a child psychologist, in my opinion, because then she understands the impact of your ex's behavior on the child. And that's what court cares about.

It's hard to think strategically when you're in the thick soup of dread and anxiety about your kids, so keep doing what you're doing, and ask friends here to help you think through what's best. Maybe list here the pros and cons of a PC vs. psych eval and get feedback from friends about what might work best.

Don't let yourself feel defeated during this stage -- you are a stable, loving parent. Your job right now is to document everything and continue being the loving parent that you are. That's a tremendous advantage that will carry you far in the custody process.

[momtara]

Wow, what a validating, great post.  Thank you.

My fear now is that a PC will just be like our marriage counselor was - all diplomatic, taking a year to really know what's going on, trying to satisfy both of us because she wants my hubby's money too.

Do they really care about the truth, or just 'cooperation'?  I secretly want her to see his dysfunction quickly, but she probably won't. 

Neither of us really has money.  And my hubby has no incentive to agree to the PC.  My lawyer can threaten to ask the judge.  I may just give up on it and wait until hubby does something else (something that would have to be documentable) and then get a psych eval at that moment, if I ever get the chance.

You are SO on target that these decisions are weighing me down.  I didn't sleep at all last night.  I feel like I should have asked for the eval when I had the one chance a few months ago after he did his nutty behavior, imagining our daughter was sick when she wasn't.  I had good documentation to prove that.  But I just couldn't let myself take that step toward putting us all in the court's hands, even though I know it shouldn't intimidate me.

I actually had a consultation with Bill Eddy and he recommended just controlling the situation and staying on course.  But that means tiptoeing carefully for a long time.  What if I say the wrong thing?  I don't know.  Hubby is getting a lot of counseling, but the counselors don't really know how far he could go.

Thanks for letting me vent.  We sent the final divorce agreement to hubby's lawyer, so now just have to wait.  I bet they will just ignore it until our court date next month, and we'll have to work all this out that day.

[livednlearned]

Wow, what a validating, great post.  Thank you.

My fear now is that a PC will just be like our marriage counselor was - all diplomatic, taking a year to really know what's going on, trying to satisfy both of us because she wants my hubby's money too.

Do they really care about the truth, or just 'cooperation'?  I secretly want her to see his dysfunction quickly, but she probably won't. 

Neither of us really has money.  And my hubby has no incentive to agree to the PC.  My lawyer can threaten to ask the judge.  I may just give up on it and wait until hubby does something else (something that would have to be documentable) and then get a psych eval at that moment, if I ever get the chance.

You are SO on target that these decisions are weighing me down.  I didn't sleep at all last night.  I feel like I should have asked for the eval when I had the one chance a few months ago after he did his nutty behavior, imagining our daughter was sick when she wasn't.  I had good documentation to prove that.  But I just couldn't let myself take that step toward putting us all in the court's hands, even though I know it shouldn't intimidate me.

I actually had a consultation with Bill Eddy and he recommended just controlling the situation and staying on course.  But that means tiptoeing carefully for a long time.  What if I say the wrong thing?  I don't know.  Hubby is getting a lot of counseling, but the counselors don't really know how far he could go.

Thanks for letting me vent.  We sent the final divorce agreement to hubby's lawyer, so now just have to wait.  I bet they will just ignore it until our court date next month, and we'll have to work all this out that day.

One way to manage stressful decisions like this is to create a plan.

1. If I can choose the PC, I will agree to one for a year.

2. If I interview a PC and find one that my instincts tell me is in this for the right reasons, I will agree to one.

3. If ex does not agree to a PC, I will make a psych eval my goal.

Something like that. It's tremendously taxing to try and manage all this stress and decision-making on limited funds, not to mention all the normal, tough emotions that come up around divorce (even if BPD wasn't involved, divorce is triggering). So thinking through how you will make hard decisions will be enormously helpful to you. It hurts to think clearly about such big decisions, so it won't be easy. Imagine a decision-tree with branches. Maybe draw it on paper so you can start to see what decision steps make sense.

[david]

I went through a lot of money the first few years with legal expenses. I came to the conclusion that the divorce and custody law is a big business. They will take your money as long as you are willing to give it and the courts are part of the business. I know it sounds cynical but once I took away the right and wrong out of it and looked at it as a business I was able to better allocate my resources. I stopped trying to get the system to understand what was going on. They never will and if they did they would still not exclude either parent from seeing their kids unless there is actual physical abuse or physical danger. When I got to that point I was able to detach even more from my ex. The more detached I got the better I was able to help our kids. The more this happened the worse my ex's behaviors became. I resisted getting pulled back in and stayed focused on the boys.

Today both boys are doing well in school and we have a great relationship. EX has no idea how to parent and as the boys got older they began to see it too. Our youngest is 10 and he has been talking to me about all kinds of things. Mostly, I listen and validate. Recently an incident occured at his moms'. Both boys were involved and they talked about it. I listened and validated. Several hours later S10 asked me to contact his mom and try to fix it. His concerns were legitimate and he knew there would be a backlash against him and his brother. I talked to both boys again and decided to email ex. Yes, there was a backlash. However, the problem was resolved and has not occured since. I feel they are learning things that will help them in their future and that is all I can do. Be a parent.

[momtara]

Excellent perspective!  Thank you.  Both of you have really given me a lot of perspective that I need.

My kids are under 4, so they can't really tell me what's going on.  Hubby lives with relatives now anyway, so they are in good hands.  I guess I worry about the future.  Someday he will be with them on his own.  Or maybe he won't.  He says he wants to move out of his parents' house.  It's had to know.