Just thinking, would love your opinions

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Just thinking over my last interaction with my xfiance and just can't get over how much he has researched narcissism and plugged me into label. First of all, he is the judge and jury and I am a narcissist, even though my friends, family and therapist all disagree, he told me he is right and they are all wrong

 

He told me that i have a "false persona" that is the image a narcissist shows to the world to hide who they really are.  I was speechless as I heard him tell me this, he said that the sweet nice side I show to the world is just a cover!  He talked about the dance between a codependent (him) and narcissist (me)  and how he needs to learn to speak up for himself, stop giving so much.  I swear as he said these things its so obvious that he was projecting, but why can't I take that in and move forward with that truth.   I keep beating myself over the head with his diagnosis of me and there are no valid facts to prove it. 

If anything I was the co-dependent, the doormat, who let him treat me poorly. He also said that I never loved him because as a narcissist I am not capable of loving anyone but myself!  He told me he wanted to move forward with his life and live for God, as I should know this about him.  He always has to throw in a God reference.  He goes to church on Sundays just like everyone, nothing else. 

What is wrong with me, in that I believe his words, even though I know it doesn't make sense and please remind me how futile it is to try and explain to him, that nothing will change his mind.  Remind me of how I need to let go, that this is not healthy.

[cartwheel]

Just thinking over my last interaction with my xfiance and just can't get over how much he has researched narcissism and plugged me into label. First of all, he is the judge and jury and I am a narcissist, even though my friends, family and therapist all disagree, he told me he is right and they are all wrong

 

He told me that i have a "false persona" that is the image a narcissist shows to the world to hide who they really are.  I was speechless as I heard him tell me this, he said that the sweet nice side I show to the world is just a cover!  He talked about the dance between a codependent (him) and narcissist (me)  and how he needs to learn to speak up for himself, stop giving so much.  I swear as he said these things its so obvious that he was projecting, but why can't I take that in and move forward with that truth.   I keep beating myself over the head with his diagnosis of me and there are no valid facts to prove it. 

If anything I was the co-dependent, the doormat, who let him treat me poorly. He also said that I never loved him because as a narcissist I am not capable of loving anyone but myself!  He told me he wanted to move forward with his life and live for God, as I should know this about him.  He always has to throw in a God reference.  He goes to church on Sundays just like everyone, nothing else. 

What is wrong with me, in that I believe his words, even though I know it doesn't make sense and please remind me how futile it is to try and explain to him, that nothing will change his mind.  Remind me of how I need to let go, that this is not healthy.

[Ironmanrises]

All of that was a projection from him to you. A reflection of how he really feels about himself but cannot admit to that so projects that onto the person closest to him, which is you.

[Lucky Jim]

Hi cartwheel, You know the sky is blue, so why sweat it when a pwBPD tells you the sky is green?  Those w/BPD are quite convincing on some levels, yet the bottom line is that their thinking is disordered, so try not to buy into it.  Lucky Jim

[cartwheel]

Ironman, Thanks for the validation.  I am going to reread things from now on as if he is writing or saying it about him.  Its so obvious, but sometimes I get lost


Lucky Jim, Thats funny, I always would use the example of the sky being blue to try and get him to understand how I felt.   You got the point across to me... .thanks

[frag1911]

Labeling others is just another defensive mechanism for pwBPD in denial; the problems can't be their fault, so we'll just accuse everyone else of being at fault.  Oh, and while they're at it, you have this problem and that problem and everyone one has a problem... .except them.  Was it ever mentioned to him before that he is/might be a BPD/NPD?

If he's being that descriptive to you about claiming you're NPD, then he's been into to the literature and internet and probably practiced this attack on you. 

If he isn't living the life of a Christian, then he seems a wee bit NPD to me if he just throws God around like a placard statement, and then validating himself by going to church on Sundays.

Like you and Ironman said, it's definitely just projecting on to you.  Don't take it for more than it is. 

[fromheeltoheal]

Ironman, Thanks for the validation.  I am going to reread things from now on as if he is writing or saying it about him.  Its so obvious, but sometimes I get lost

Easy to do.  My take is my borderline was eroding my self confidence and injecting self doubt from the beginning, very stealthily I discovered, so down the road I met everything with self doubt to begin with; it was my anger that saved me, just plain had enough of her bullsht.

So in hindsight it became clear I went into a relationship openhearted and naive with a person with a serious mental illness.  I cut myself a little slack because she's learned how to hide it well and it didn't last that long, but still, more maturity, awareness and boundary enforcement required.  What if that experience was our relationship boot camp, and now we're ready for the real deal?

[Elpis]

Cartwheel, you said:

What is wrong with me, in that I believe his words, even though I know it doesn't make sense and please remind me how futile it is to try and explain to him, that nothing will change his mind.  Remind me of how I need to let go, that this is not healthy.

Reading that made me so sad! I believed the things I was told about myself, but like you felt that it didn't match up with who I am as a person. It took time with my therapist to understand the dynamics of the r/s with someone with BPD, and how their beliefs about life affect the other person. I had been saying to her that it made me feel crazy when he would tell me I was (fill in the blank with something negative) when I had just been thinking that very thing about him. (was he reading my mind? how'd he DO that?) and she told me "When you feel crazy it's an indication that something is not right" and helped me understand that what he said was his belief and didn't mean it was true. But boy oh boy, hearing that enough can really cause a person to falter and not trust their own instincts anymore.

When I read about projection I just went AHAH! THAT'S how he did it! Somewhere in his troubled brain he knew how he was acting but needed to make it about me to get the responsibility off of him.

The great news is that with practice (like every other skill we learn here) you'll start trusting yourself again, and be able to see clearly when it's just something from your ex's head and doesn't actually apply to your life anymore.

You are definitely headed in the right direction, that of Truth.

[Lady31]

I thought the same thing Frag asked regarding whether anyone has previously mentioned to him being NPD.  I am betting that is the case.

He is blowing hot air.  If you were a narcissist you wouldn't be all worked up worrying you might be one.  You are fine.

Mine would do similar things to me.  He would never say to me that I had BPD or NPD (I had suggested to him he was BPD), but he would say how crazy I was.  How I belonged in a "home" or a mental ward, etc.

Poor thing - he is probably worried they will lock him up in one in the future.  Don't stress.  All is well with you.

[TakingWingAtLast]

Wow, that same stuff has been happening to me!  I'm now the sex addict/BPD/aspergers/narcissist  I guess that's why she can now start dating two days after we ended an 8 year relationship and I'm on here trying to figure this all out.

It seems a good question to ask your therapist though.   Why are they the BPD and we the pwBPD?  How can you tell for sure?

Does anyone have any literature that might answer that?

Sleepless

[Pretty Woman]

Dpenderg,

     When I met my ex she told me her ex was a sex addict. She also said she had to move, get a restraining order and block this ex from all communications... .she was crazy (oh yeah and this ex is a renowned prison psychiatrist).

A month into dating my ex is texting and talking to this woman.  Really? Ok so you were afraid of her and she was stalking you but somehow you are communicating again?

She is gaslighting you and she will continue to do it until she "needs you" again. You will be painted as this awful person but the story will change as her feelings wax and wane. Do not think this will go un noticed. I was blinded by our honeymoon love but after awhile I saw the pattern. My ex is in contact with every ex except the one she claims raped her. I live the closest to her of all these exes... .3mi. I am stupid to think for one moment she is not going to contact me eventually.

I was called a "self absorbed C_nt" Try not to take anything to heart. They are just words coming out their a_ses.

[nevaeh]

It really is crazy that our partner is the one who clearly exhibits irrational behavior, yet we begin to feel like WE are the one with the problem.

My H will say that I am detached and don't exhibit love for him.  I honestly started thinking that maybe I was the one with BPD!  I really have to take pause when I start thinking that and look back at our past together so I can where this began.  Temper tantrums over stupid things, cyber affairs, porn addiction, cross dressing, emotional/physical affair, pressuring me to have sex/perform certain sexual acts, emotionally abusive to me and my kids (S12 in particular).  I have to stop and tell myself that I didn't CAUSE him to do any of those things!  Even the worst partner does not deserve that kind of treatment.  After all he has done to me I wouldn't DREAM of doing these things to him.  I am leaving him soon and am still considering his feelings and trying to make sure I make the separation as "easy" as possible for him emotionally.

All I'm trying to say is, from my personal experience, when you start to believe that you are the crazy one, just step back and look at the situation.  Realize that, as Ironman says, they are very good at projecting behaviors back on you.  They may not even consciously be doing it, but they do it nonetheless.

Posted by: Lady31

If you were a narcissist you wouldn't be all worked up worrying you might be one.  You are fine.

Exactly!  That is the perfect response!  When I think of ALL of the hours I have thought about what *I* am doing wrong or how I could be *better* to make him be the husband I needed him to be, I realize how much time I have wasted!  I can almost guarantee that he has spent close to ZERO time thinking about whether he might be part of the problem.  That is actually quite depressing to think about.  To be married to someone who is constantly "crazy-making" and who doesn't think they have ever done anything wrong to "deserve" your reactions... .that is mind numbing, really.

Surround yourself with people who build you up and make you see how NORMAL you are! 

Take care... .

[Traumatized]

Don't believe him.  Like others have said it's all projection.  He's throwing baloney against your wall.  Don't let it stick.  Peel it off and throw it away.   

I was also accused of being a narcissist.  She said I never loved her, was totally self centered, had a huge ego, had no empathy or remorse, felt entitled, etc.  I asked my psychiatrist if I was a narcissist and he said no.  I asked him how he knew and he said it was because I had asked him if I was a narcissist. I found that response to be interesting... .and comforting.

There were plenty of other labels she projected onto me as well:  paranoid schizophrenic, pathological liar, sadist, multiple personalities, dissociated like a serial killer, etc.  At the end she determined I was either a sociopath or a psychopath.  She wasn't sure which one, but I was definitely one of the two.  She had been doing research on the internet and that's what she came up with.  Shortly before she dumped me she said she wanted to get couples counseling with MY therapist.  She wanted my therapist to tell her which of the two I was, as if my therapist was going to tell her anything except for no you cannot come in here.

I received all of these labels from someone who is officially diagnosed with BPD, and has been for a VERY LONG time.  She turned me into an evil monster in order that she could kill me.  She took no responsibility for herself.  Everything was my fault.  She was sweet and innocent.  I was the villain.

[Learning_curve74]

It's projection. Check out info about codependency and Stockholm syndrome. These can help explain why you feel like the "crazy" one.

How is your self-esteem? This is a serious question. What do your friends tell you about yourself? Also, what are you doing for yourself? What do you do to take care of yourself?

[TakingWingAtLast]

Unfortunately, I was the one who turned to affairs thus the label of sex addict.   My gf also said that I was detached and didn't exhibit love for her.   Temper tantrums were frequent and she wanted to watch pornography more than me.  However, her version was radically different from mine.  Hers were about pain and bondage.   Mine were just about sex.   She rarely shared her deep fantasies with me because they were so dark.   I know that she fantasized about being gang raped by Nazis (she's Jewish) for example.   

Sounds like you have a similar story there... .    I hope that you can come to terms with this and figure it all out.

Sleepless

It really is crazy that our partner is the one who clearly exhibits irrational behavior, yet we begin to feel like WE are the one with the problem.

My H will say that I am detached and don't exhibit love for him.  I honestly started thinking that maybe I was the one with BPD!  I really have to take pause when I start thinking that and look back at our past together so I can where this began.  Temper tantrums over stupid things, cyber affairs, porn addiction, cross dressing, emotional/physical affair, pressuring me to have sex/perform certain sexual acts, emotionally abusive to me and my kids (S12 in particular).  I have to stop and tell myself that I didn't CAUSE him to do any of those things!  Even the worst partner does not deserve that kind of treatment.  After all he has done to me I wouldn't DREAM of doing these things to him.  I am leaving him soon and am still considering his feelings and trying to make sure I make the separation as "easy" as possible for him emotionally.

[charred]

I wouldn't discount it all as projection... .In our disordered r/s with pwBPD we tend to move around taking various roles in the drama triangle, and we also react to being attacked in various ways.

My pwBPD was pretty mean (and my father is a very malignant NPD jerk), and I find that when I am being attacked, I react like a narcissist... .as it is effective and a secondary style of relating for me.

All the claims I was NPD from my pwBPD made me start to wonder if she was right, and I took some tests and found that on the N scale I was about 1/2 normal... certainly not NPD.

I know many others have felt like I did... .I was pushed/pulled to acting much worse than normal in the r/s... .it wasn't 100% passively taking it, some of the volleys were returned with my own zingers. That doesn't make you disordered, it can be avoiding being treated like a doormat.

[TakingWingAtLast]

Charred,

Now that was more my style in the r/s.   I fought back.   When the barriers were breached (at an unbelievably high rate), I would first try to take a step back and get out of the situation.  I would go to another room.  But if she continued to breach the boundary which she almost always did, then I would get angrier and would eventually escalate to yelling but never physical.   Then I would either get in my car, drive around, even at 2:00 am, or sleep in my office.   

Then, of course, I get the "I'm suicidal/depressed can't get out of bed" text or call.

dpenderg

[charred]

I fought back after a while as well... but it didn't matter if I was nice/normal/mean, nothing worked with her, it all ended badly.

I think a lot of what happens is that we get burned a lot dealing with people as kids, and then we kind of put up an emotional wall that keeps most people at a comfortable distance from us. The pwBPD ignore those boundaries and manage to get close to us, and we are so in need of that intimacy we just soak it up... .then we find out they are not the wonderful person they pretended to be... .in fact we are not sure what they are are or if they have a set personality at all after a while. 

My pwBPD... always had a twinge of phoniness to her when she was nice/sweet, seemed more real when she was clingy/needy and was a 100% genuine hater... .every fiber of her being was consistent when mad/hateful. Scary person. Watched Jodi Arias trial... .and it could have been her.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Dpendberg,

Sounds like a familiar scenario.  I got to know the clerk at the local motel after several similar episodes.  Sometimes my BPDex tried to tackle me or rip my clothes as I went out the door.  Then the calls that you describe would start.  Those were nightmarish times.

Sometimes I went on long walks late at night rather than drive around.  When I returned, the house might be locked and/or my business suits might be in a pile on the front lawn . . . not fun.

Lucky Jim

[Lucky Jim]

One time my brother-in-law called me after I reported to my Ex's family what was going on with my BPDxW in terms of the crazy, abusive stuff that she was doing.

Brother-in-law said that he spoke with her and she denied it all.

I said, "Well, it would be hard to make this s**t up!"

He said, "I know, that's why I believe you!"

Like you, Charred, I tried different approaches without success.

Lucky Jim

[TakingWingAtLast]

Lucky Jim,

Wow.  That's why I wouldn't come home more often than not.  I'd spend the night in my office.  I did that nearly 30 times in the 5 years we lived together.   It was truly awful.

Even when we "broke up" for more than two weeks (which happened about 5 times), I was so displaced because I didn't have much support outside of the relationship.  In fact, this need to be in a home was a theme that continued to plague my return.

dpenderg

Hey Dpendberg,

Sounds like a familiar scenario.  I got to know the clerk at the local motel after several similar episodes.  Sometimes my BPDex tried to tackle me or rip my clothes as I went out the door.  Then the calls that you describe would start.  Those were nightmarish times.

Sometimes I went on long walks late at night rather than drive around.  When I returned, the house might be locked and/or my business suits might be in a pile on the front lawn . . . not fun.

Lucky Jim

[toomanytears]

My BPD husband told me I was BPD a few months ago - can't remember the circumstances. I replied that if he knew anything at all about the condition he should know that accusing someone of being BPD is the last thing you should do.  His response? 'Huh I didn't know that'. Clearly he hadn't researched the topic at all! Needless to say I've never ever told him I think he's BPD. It would be totally counter productive.

Interestingly he's recently started to use BPD vocab in emails: phrases such as 'constantly treading on eggshells during our relationship' and decribing his fear of 'triggering me' into angy outbursts. This makes me thing that either he's been fed the idea or started to research BPD on the internet.

Anyhow, he told me I needed to see a therapist before we went to couples therapy. I am, but not because he told me to, but because I know it's the only way I'll get over him and get to the bottom of me. I am not at all afraid of what I'll find. Nothing is as bad as the hell he put me through. I've just got to tough it out and I will.

[TakingWingAtLast]

Toomanytears,

You're amazing.   Stay true to yourself as you work through your issues.   I had not yet heard such language in our last days, just the labeling.

dpenderg

My BPD husband told me I was BPD a few months ago - can't remember the circumstances. I replied that if he knew anything at all about the condition he should know that accusing someone of being BPD is the last thing you should do.  His response? 'Huh I didn't know that'. Clearly he hadn't researched the topic at all! Needless to say I've never ever told him I think he's BPD. It would be totally counter productive.

Interestingly he's recently started to use BPD vocab in emails: phrases such as 'constantly treading on eggshells during our relationship' and decribing his fear of 'triggering me' into angy outbursts. This makes me thing that either he's been fed the idea or started to research BPD on the internet.

Anyhow, he told me I needed to see a therapist before we went to couples therapy. I am, but not because he told me to, but because I know it's the only way I'll get over him and get to the bottom of me. I am not at all afraid of what I'll find. Nothing is as bad as the hell he put me through. I've just got to tough it out and I will.

[Elpis]

Traumatized--

this:

He's throwing baloney against your wall.  Don't let it stick.  Peel it off and throw it away.   

is bound to cause me some grief! Now when I hear some of those words from my pwBPD I'm gonna have a hard time not grinning... .oh please take this visual from my head!

Toomanytears--

I've heard the same things from my uBPDh as you, he's used the "walking on eggshells" or "because I will overreact" kinds of phrases as well. And I would think, "wait! that's what I'M thinking! how'd he do that?" I honestly think that somewhere in their minds they know they do these things, but their level of inner pain and lack of a strong self-image keeps them from admitting it's something they do so it gets pinned on us.

I know that the thing I always come back to when I'm thinking through the actions and behavior of someone with BPD is that they are driven by the belief inside them that they aren't worth knowing anyway, they're too flawed. What we see as their outward behavior seems opposite of their deeper struggles.

And Cartwheel--

how are things going for you?

[toomanytears]

I know that the thing I always come back to when I'm thinking through the actions and behavior of someone with BPD is that they are driven by the belief inside them that they aren't worth knowing anyway, they're too flawed. What we see as their outward behavior seems opposite of their deeper struggles.

Thanks Elpis and dpenderg. Great to get your supportive posts.  TMT

[goldylamont]

projection for sure. i can literally tell the story of much of my ex's bad behavior just by listing the things she projected onto me.

she told me i was narcissistic too--i think she believed it when she said it too. this stuff is just par for course. to be expected it sadly seems.

have you had relationships previous (or after) this one? what would your other, healthier ex's say about your character? asking these questions of myself made it *very* clear to me who was the narcissist and who was not.

gaslight... .neon light! (sorry, had to go all George Clinton on you  )

[TakingWingAtLast]

TMT, 

You are welcome.   And thank you too.   We are all just trying to figure it out.   So you've helped me too. 

I know that the thing I always come back to when I'm thinking through the actions and behavior of someone with BPD is that they are driven by the belief inside them that they aren't worth knowing anyway, they're too flawed. What we see as their outward behavior seems opposite of their deeper struggles.

Thanks Elpis and dpenderg. Great to get your supportive posts.  TMT

[Elpis]

We are all just trying to figure it out

Yes we are, yes indeed... .

Elpis

[starshine]

Wow, that same stuff has been happening to me!  I'm now the sex addict/BPD/aspergers/narcissist  I guess that's why she can now start dating two days after we ended an 8 year relationship and I'm on here trying to figure this all out.



I am sorry this happened to you- I can relate to your pain.  5 years/4 days later for me.  It's unbelievable.  And the projection both the ex and my replacement used in phone/text messages was so obvious.  They are gross and twisted in their souls.  Such pain and destruction they cause, and the amazing thing is that people just sort of brush it off, attributing their behavior to "karma".  It always makes me gag to think of that- but if it's "true", then we just had a BIG karma burn-off, Amigo.  Let's hope we can heal from this and move into the rest of our lives.  I am intrigued with the idea that this relationship was basically a boot camp exercise.  

[necchi]

Well, i was supposed to take a break from here but you guys i miss a lots!Anyway the knowledge of BPD came from my doctor 3years ago when i was in a nervous wreck, had regular visit and kept talking about my BPD gf then (her doing this, and that,throwing furets at my car ,hurting mycats for attention,hitting me)

she( the doctor) said i would never see things like normal peoples,i was BPD and projecting! For f%&ck sake she was diagnosting my gf and since what do you think my exuBPDgf does with this¿¿?